Moskva down [Archive] - Page 2

WideScreen

18th Apr 2022, 11:37

Good effort in your research, WFFC.

There's gonna be a fairly high toll of the CIC team and others in that area north of the machinery spaces, but there should have been a recovery of much of the crew at least from the tub, how they will fare at Lefortovo is another matter. Russia is pretty tough on those that have dared to be survivors.... K-219, K-19 K429, etc...
Actually, given the majority of water ingress moves towards the stern, it suggests the initial explosion ripped through the ship, from the impact (roughly 1/3 front) to nearly the stern, either ripping out all (or at least releasing these from their water-tightness purposes) the bulkheads or just being confronted with all open bulkhead doors, which no longer close after the explosion. We need to be aware, the hull itself would be very strong, potentially the same for the deck itself, so an explosion stays inside the hull, unless deck or hull are heavily compromised. When this happens, people below deck have very little chances to survive the pressure wave. Given the impact timing, most people would have been in their quarters, below deck. Maybe this explains, we only see so little people saved.

Reasons to abandon a warship: imminent sinking or an expected big boom.

Just wondering: Did the Moskva turn-over, though was still floating ? In which position, the tow-back was attempted ? Given the latest pictures, there are little tow-attempts, whereas the timing would be not far from the "it's gone" moment.

FullWings

18th Apr 2022, 12:25

Just wondering: Did the Moskva turn-over, though was still floating ? In which position, the tow-back was attempted ? Given the latest pictures, there are little tow-attempts, whereas the timing would be not far from the "it's gone" moment.
If it did have certain assets on board, would you want to tow it back to port while it’s on fire? I know these kinds of weapons are by nature highly unlikely to go off properly unless triggered on purpose, but even a “fizzle” might be a big problem...

Xeptu

18th Apr 2022, 12:51

"I guess that if this is the Russian definition of a stormy sea then it's consistent with a bit of slush in Salisbury"

I'm inclined to go with the original report straight after the event, there doesn't appear to be any storm, the smoke indicates the wind is not all that strong, she is already listing to port while on fire and there are no life boats/rafts in the water. I very much doubt she was ever under tow, or that the fire was extinguished before she sank.
P.S I also note one of the helideck doors is ajar, if that's because it was blasted open, you wouldn't expect able bodied survivors below decks

Kent Based

18th Apr 2022, 12:58

It took me a while to realise that what looks like a blackened and bent mast may actually have been a deck crane, normally stowed between the funnels. What were they trying to do with this crane before abandoning it in this odd position?

Also I notice that the water level on the port side is about the line where a dozen portholes are normally sited, way above normal water level. I guess Moskva must have been filling with water rapidly by this point?

NutLoose

18th Apr 2022, 13:09

The fact that is is daylight makes one wonder if they have cut the tow as it was in danger of foundering, the storm was a Russian excuse if I remember correctly.

rigpiggy

18th Apr 2022, 13:12

well it is technically correct, an ordinance explosion caused by a fire which is under investigation. The fire was probably caused by a direct hit from a neptune missile.

Ethical Question for you military people, is it still OK to fire upon an enemy warship even though it may be conducting a rescue operation.

If the enemy can return to the fray, then yup!

Imagegear

18th Apr 2022, 14:10

At what point did the Turkish ship take crew off the upturned "Hill"?

IG

petit plateau

18th Apr 2022, 14:18

That crane has to be stowed forwards as it obstructs the S300 VLS cells in the aft position (presumably it has a role in handling reloads).

So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.

It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd.

In the most common photo it is (I think) mid-afternoon with the ship listing to port and the water getting quite close to the deck edge at the stern. So maybe 12-15-hours or so after missile impact if it was in the early hours as reported. That rate of sinking is consistent with it going under several hours later, also as reported.

(edit : by the time of that photo I suspect everyone was off the ship who was capable of leaving)

fdr

18th Apr 2022, 14:34

shurely the below decks fire..........:)

masterfully put out by the skillful counterflooding permitted by cunningly opening up an 8' hole in the port amidship station, thus dousing the fires perfidiously set by the dastardly Alexi Navalny from his prison cell. Quick, add another 25 years to Navalny's sentence, and while you are at it, add 10 more for his setting of a fire on the Alligator class at Berdyans'k. These sneaky Russian extremists, trying to harm the glorious grand fleet from their jail cells.

fdr

18th Apr 2022, 14:50

If the enemy can return to the fray, then yup!

ah, maybe.... not; according to the ICRC with reference to Articles 12, 13, and 18 of the Second Convention for the Amelioration of the Wounded, Sick and Shipwrecked Members of Armed Forces at Sea, 12 August 1949, all belligerents have a duty to assist in the life-saving of shipwrecked armed forces, so interfering with that activity would probably get a free visit to the Hague sometime in the future. it is also in keeping with SOLAS. Now, if the red team is also plinking away at your blue tub, then they are a legitimate target in self defense, so, kind of maybe, possibly depends. The HMS Conqueror skipper displayed good judgment and knowledge of the law in not launching another?Mk 10? downrange at the Belgrano's escorts. Had they started to attack the Conqueror, a different matter.

COMMENTARY OF 2017
ARTICLE 18 : SEARCH FOR CASUALTIES AFTER AN ENGAGEMENT

Text of the provision*
(1) After each engagement, Parties to the conflict shall, without delay, take all possible measures to search for and collect the shipwrecked, wounded and sick, to protect them against pillage and ill-treatment, to ensure their adequate care, and to search for the dead and prevent their being despoiled.
(2) Whenever circumstances permit, the Parties to the conflict shall conclude local arrangements for the removal of the wounded and sick by sea from a besieged or encircled area and for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment on their way to that area.
* Paragraph numbers have been added for ease of reference.

A. Introduction
1616 Article 18(1) complements Article 12 by requiring that, after each engagement, Parties to an international armed conflict take all possible measures to search for and collect persons protected by the Second Convention who are shipwrecked, wounded, sick or dead as a result of the hostilities. Article 18 thus sets out specific obligations that flow from the obligation of Article 12 to respect and protect the wounded, sick and shipwrecked.
1617 Article 18(1) is among the most important provisions in the Second Convention. The search for and collection of casualties after a naval engagement, by the Parties to the conflict themselves, is paramount in achieving one of the core objectives of the Convention. When hostilities are taking place at sea, the Parties to the conflict may be the only entities sufficiently close to the victims to search for and collect them.
1618 The obligations of Article 18 must be implemented impartially, in the sense of Article 12. Accordingly, where the Parties to the armed conflict have suffered casualties, Article 18 requires them to search for and collect all the shipwrecked, wounded, sick and dead, without discriminating between their own and enemy personnel.
1619 The obligation to ‘take all possible measures’ applies, as a matter of international humanitarian law, to the ‘Parties to the conflict’ as a whole. Under international criminal law, conduct in violation of Article 18(1) that leads to the death of protected persons may trigger individual criminal responsibility on the basis of the grave breach of wilful killing by omission.
1620 If an area on land is ‘besieged or encircled’, Article 18(2) requires the Parties to the conflict, whenever circumstances permit, to conclude ‘local arrangements’ to evacuate the wounded and sick by sea or to allow for the passage of medical and religious personnel and equipment to the area.
1621 As far as international humanitarian law is concerned, obligations similar to those in Article 18 are contained in the First Convention, the Fourth Convention and the 1977 Additional Protocols, and they also exist under customary international law.
1622 There is a wide array of rules in general international treaty and customary law requiring entities other than the Parties to the conflict to render assistance to persons in distress at sea. The notion of ‘persons in distress at sea’ covers more than, but also includes, the shipwrecked, wounded and sick who are protected persons in the sense of Articles 12 and 13 of the Second Convention.The application of those rules to Parties to a conflict and to neutral Powers is addressed in the Introduction, section C.5.e-f.

fdr

18th Apr 2022, 14:58

At what point did the Turkish ship take crew off the upturned "Hill"?

IG

The area around Moscow is pretty flat, as in, flat. So even a 5-degree list could be construed to a landlubber as being a hill if they come from somewhere around the Kremmin. Other than the commentary from the Russian Govt, which is well known as an impeccable source of truth and light, is there any evidence of the Turks having a hull anywhere nearby? As in, AIS data or something evidentiary. The Turks denied being anywhere nearby, and probably would be sensitive to being involved in any manner, even if in keeping with Convention II.

Recc

18th Apr 2022, 15:03

Also I notice that the water level on the port side is about the line where a dozen portholes are normally sited, way above normal water level. I guess Moskva must have been filling with water rapidly by this point?

Would be astonishing if they didn't have the deadlights closed at night and close to an enemy shore (though much about the incident is surprising) . It certainly doesn't look like there would have been any downflooding at the time the photo was taken although she could have been flooding rapidly due to hull damage.

WideScreen

18th Apr 2022, 15:29

If it did have certain assets on board, would you want to tow it back to port while it’s on fire? I know these kinds of weapons are by nature highly unlikely to go off properly unless triggered on purpose, but even a “fizzle” might be a big problem...
Back to a port: Of course.

There is no need to move it into the harbor right away, though just outside, to let it cool down, etc. Why not. Even, when it would be upright, still sinking, you might be interested to let it land on a shallow seabed and, when salvageable, raise again, etc. Being able to recover a hull of a warship could be a significant saving, compared to "new". Although, this one is 40 years old, but, yeah, when having a situation with a lack of money, maybe better a wrinkled hull, than no hull. And, when still floating, a huge amount of accessories would be available for salvaging and reuse. These accessories tend to be "custom-made", so spares would be welcome.

WillFlyForCheese

18th Apr 2022, 15:38

WillFlyForCheese

18th Apr 2022, 15:51

If you look at the bathymetric maps of the Black Sea - it looks more like she was brought to the deepest part of the sea. Broken arrow? Just didn’t want anyone to dive and have a look at her? Who knows - but she went down in the deepest part of the sea.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/760x1244/3cf57979_018d_415b_a1ff_5f416bf87aee_8bbe7569397d8fb45f5f724 5be5927f57bef9944.jpeg

NutLoose

18th Apr 2022, 16:14

Questions being asked by families as to why conscripts were on the ship and why the officers survived but the conscripts didn’t, though if you read the comments he was pro war, pro Putin and believed Ukraine shouldn’t exist right up until the war came home to him.

https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1516049175510667270

MPN11

18th Apr 2022, 16:26

And reading the responses to that, it seems the father is pro-Russia and vehemently anti-Ukraine. No tears shed here: sorry.

Assuming one can believe anything on the internet these days.

sandiego89

18th Apr 2022, 17:12

That crane has to be stowed forwards as it obstructs the S300 VLS cells in the aft position (presumably it has a role in handling reloads).

So either the blast from one of the Neptune warheads has sent the crane upwards, or someone raised it. In many of the photos there is a lot of smoke coming from the void where the main mast was (which is the lower mast, carrying the Top Pair / Top Steer radar). That radar & mast seems to have mostly disappeared, unless it is simply hidden by smoke. Below that mast were the machinery control rooms / the damage control rooms. Awkward.

It is just possible that someone raised the crane to try to use it to direct some firefighting hoses into the void. That is a more positive explanation than either they had not stowed it prior to action, or that it just got blown up/back. But a lot of things about this action are odd......

Many pre-attack photos show a small boat (Captains Gig) on the portside of the left funnel. I do not spot any davits above this boat. Perhaps the crane was raised to launch the small boat as abandoned ship was undertaken? It is practice to lower small boats to shepherd the evacuees aboard the inflatable lifeboats.

You can make out the gig below a protective cover in this file photo.

https://www.reporter.am/pentagon-the-crash-of-the-moscow-ship-was-a-big-blow-for-the-russian-navy-voice-of-america-morning/

ORAC

18th Apr 2022, 19:02

WideScreen

18th Apr 2022, 19:04

So - if you look closely at the higher res photos - the explosions appear to have been catastrophic. You can see buckling in the aft deck areas - and it appears the roof of the helo hanger is also buckled, below the rear radar dome. Still can’t tell if the line in the hull aft of the missile bay is smoke, or actually a break in the hull. There certainly appears to be creasing of the hull in that area.

it may simply be that this catastrophic explosion resulted in the death of many of the crew - with a significant number caught below deck and killed by the pressure wave and those that survived the initial explosion overtaken by fire and smoke.

I would not be surprised if she broke in two around that creased area.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1440/616c757e_5967_413c_b30b_fb4e36f02b9b_42ae03e09c1cce7f7dff6db b696a47e1c54dda82.jpeg
Good catch, and nice to see a high-res version of this picture.

Checking further, it looks like, the helo desk does have a big hole in it, with, as it seems, penetration from the top and a subsequent big explosion underneath the deck, maybe even 1 or 2 decks lower, inside the ship. Not to mention the crumbling and burn damage visible all over the port side on the deck below the helo deck.

Could it be Neptune Nr 2 did penetrate the helo deck and just blew up the whole inside of the stern section ? Given there will be not that many explosives and/or fuel around there, the only igniting stuff would be the neptune warhead itself with maybe some residual neptune fuel.

This could certainly explain the damage to the rear part of the ship and in front of the helo hangar, the structure below the rear radar dome itself. That part seems to be completely blown up from the inside out.

WideScreen

18th Apr 2022, 19:37

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/18/moskva-warship-need-answers-relatives-missing-crew-russia

“His wife, Irina, told the independent Russian website the Insider that they had seen about 200 injured sailors at a military hospital in Crimea while looking for their son. The total crew of the Moskva was estimated at just over 500.

“We looked at every burnt kid,” she told the Insider. “I can’t tell you how hard it was, but I couldn’t find mine. There were only 200 people, and there were more than 500 onboard the cruiser.

Where were the others? We looked in Krasnodar, and everywhere else, we called every place, but we couldn’t find him.”….
On his VK page, he denies about the 200 wounded, his wife would have seen. She wasn't there, see the bold text in the quote ......

https://m.vk.com/d.vetrov78?from=post (https://m-vk-com.translate.goog/d.vetrov78?from=post&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp)

Or, so to say: It could very well be, significantly less Russians managed to escape the inferno (and those unharmed, parading in the thank-you-hero propaganda, are just staged actors, or this is a completely different event ......)

Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 7:29 pm
Here is the correspondence of the brother of one of the missing guys from the cruiser "Moskva" with the deputy commander of the division Bugorsky.
People were first informed that the sailor was alive, a day later they were informed that he was missing.
And today, after we wrote a statement to the military registration and enlistment office, they reported that he had died.
What's going on? Why are we being bullied like this?

Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 7:08 pm
Information is being circulated, by some false people, that my wife allegedly saw 200 sailors with burns in the hospital, and that we came to the FSB of Sevastopol and quarreled with someone there - this is a lie.
I went to Sevastopol with two people who helped me, without my wife.
We did not see the wounded, we were looking for our son on lists with surnames.

{snip, teaching a man to fish}

Dmitry Shkrebets
today at 1:15 pm
We were contacted by three families from Yalta, Alupka and St. Petersburg, whose children are also missing, also conscripts.
Today we wrote applications together at the local military enlistment office, tomorrow they will be at the military commissariat of Simferopol.
We need written answers to our questions about the location of our children, and not SMS with pictures and wishes to pray ... Here, on the spot, everyone was sympathetic to our misfortune, we are very grateful.
{snip teach a man to fish}

MPN11

18th Apr 2022, 19:43

I see no hole in the heli pad, just a pile of debris near the centre spot.

Whichever, the ship has gone. What effect that will have on the land campaign remains to be seen. I’m not comforted by apparent Russian progress in that respect.

NutLoose

18th Apr 2022, 20:27

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1440/image_ab2a882e496841a8c5c169cfefc39b7ce7251cdf.jpeg

Good catch, and nice to see a high-res version of this picture.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/image_d18b554e8e99d3acbf06011600a82c20272077af.jpeg

Interesting to see the fire damage and black square forward of the rear deck step down below the hangar as is that not the missing torpedo door so it looks like they have gone up or have been jettisoned?

you can just make it out below the liferaft stowages on this image and it correlates with the black square on the top image. Also it looks like the motor launch is still onboard just below the stacks, all be it destroyed, is that a rotor lying on the fwd hangar deck far side?

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/550x390/image_6438d65ff2a7a4eec36787d0d987647d9171344b.jpeg

NutLoose

18th Apr 2022, 20:47

I do wonder considering the uproar when the photos were released of the F35’s going overboard whether there is a witch-hunt going on in Russia to find out who let these out, not exactly what Russia would want emblazoned all over the web and the worlds press.

meleagertoo

18th Apr 2022, 21:14

Do we have a credible positon for the wreck yet?
Some say in deepest water which is quite contrary to my observations - and if there really are "jackups" in attendance surely they must be identifiable? My amateur research on AIS has been inconclusive, bar one site that showed multiple utility assets right about where I thougt the incident happened, and in (very roughly) rather less than 100 m of water.

Ideas?

WillFlyForCheese

18th Apr 2022, 21:25

My understanding from what I read, and what I observed on various marine vessel tracking sites - is she likely went down right around where these "tugs and special craft" are still located in the Black Sea. There were nearly a dozen there late last week - but several have remained in that area since then. Recall that in the immediate aftermath of the initial strike - the Russians moved their Black Sea fleet south out of the range of the Neptune - which is approximately 180 miles. That would be consistent with the location of all the naval fuss in the location of these tugs.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1117/moskva_bcc91f98be0efc98f8eb2b5ee6fec8514d05b399.jpg

meleagertoo

18th Apr 2022, 22:56

NutLoose

18th Apr 2022, 23:05

It pinpointed the coordinates of a ship matching the Russian vessel and its dire situation to 45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E - a position east of Snake Island in the Black Sea, 80 nautical miles from Odesa and 50 nautical miles away from the closest stretch of Ukrainian coastline.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10723973/Ukraine-war-Doomed-Moskva-Russia-warship-seen-burning-satellite-image.html

RatherBeFlying

19th Apr 2022, 00:11

The fog of war has, helpfully for Putin, delayed KIA notifications reaching the families.

But with Moskva, the families of those serving on it know that it has gone down and are actively seeking to find out if they are alive or dead.

Will the 500 families and others show up at the Victory Day parade with placards asking "Where's our son?"

WillFlyForCheese

19th Apr 2022, 00:34

Post #281 Interesting. That hardly seems credible. The last position I saw for Moskva pre sinking (and more or less corroborated by my single AIS view of tugs and special vessels) was all of a third of that distance from Odessa. An air superiority asset would surely be of no use that far from theatre?
The location of that AIS plot I saw (once but couldn't repeat) was roughly where the magenta dot is just S of odessa. It now seems to be labelled "high speed craft".

There's no way on earth jackups are positioned where the above post suggests, water is FAR too deep.m.

Addendum.
As per the post below that is as far as I can tell exactly where I saw the last pre-sinking posn. of the Moskva and corroborated by the AIS plot of tugs and special vessels. In around 100m of water only.

it certainly could be too far south - just don’t know. There was a Turkish flagged ship nearby that heard the SOS and picked up some of the crew. At that time - the Turkish flagged Fatih was right near that location. Once the sun came up - FORTE10 was in the air and spent considerable time over that precise location. Quite a few of the OSINT guys on twitter picked it apart pretty good.

i guess we’ll find out eventually.

jeepjeep

19th Apr 2022, 01:46

I constructed the following event timeline based on my understanding of the reliable info so far.

13Apr22 daytime hours: Two R-360 Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles hit Moskva

13Apr daytime hours: Other Russian ships approach the burning Moskva, take leaked photos, attempt towing and fire suppression operations, split and buckling in hull of Moskva is photographed indicating structural failure

13Apr 2000 hours: Ukrainian presidential adviser Oleksiy Arestovych and Odesa governor Maksym Marchenko tweeted that their forces hit Moskva with the Neptune missiles.

14Apr 0105 hours, Moskva sent out an SOS

14Apr 0114 hours, (Turk ship observes) Moskva lay on its side

14Apr 0144 hours, all the electricity went out

14Apr 0200 hours, Turk ship evacuated 54 sailors from Moskva

14Apr 0300 hours, Moskva reported completely sunk

Imagegear

19th Apr 2022, 06:13

What is interesting is that the crew needed to be rescued by a nearby Turkish ship. who responded to a very late SOS.

Where were all the other naval vessels accompanying the ship?, did they all back off out of range and leave their mates to whomever would pick them up?. One would not normally allow survivors to be taken off by a commercial vessel unless they were the only ones around..

It has been done before by many Navies, so I expect the Moskva was on it's own and may have later been towed South to deeper ocean for reasons that were not related to rescue.(At least two nukes up the spout.)

IG

Sam Ting Wong

19th Apr 2022, 06:56

When one wishes to learn one is ignorant, not stupid.
A ship at sea can stay on station for days/weeks/months. An aircraft can stay on station for hours (and in rare cases, days).
Also, most naval war ships are Multi Purpose Combatants. They are not just "a floating missile battery" meaning that they have guns, radios, radars, sonars, and Intelligence collection systems.
They also (nowadays) act as floating airfields for UAVs, for Helicopters, and/or (as you get much bigger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_aircraft_carrier_Minsk#/media/File:Aircraft_carrier_%22Minsk%22_in_1986_(3).jpeg) ships) fixed wing aircraft. (By they VSTOL or CATABAR). They can also carry people to put ashore if the circumstances require that.
To a certain extent, you are looking at an apple and trying to see how it compares to a lug nut. ;)

Thanks ( to nutloose as well, had no idea Russia only has ONE carrier. )

CargoOne

19th Apr 2022, 07:16

Thanks ( to nutloose as well, had no idea Russia only has ONE carrier. )

It is not one, it is rather none. In her life Kuznetsov have seen only a few short deployments, including one combat deployment to Syria, where majority of the fast jet operations were made from the land base, not from the deck. Any fixed wing aircraft take off or landing on her used to make the news in Russian media for two decades.

Asturias56

19th Apr 2022, 08:04

"Where were all the other naval vessels accompanying the ship?, did they all back off out of range and leave their mates to whomever would pick them up"

We covered this above - you don't hang around when you're clearly in range of the enemy - as per HMS Aboukir etc in WW1 - 2 more ships lost trying to save the crew of the first to be hit

You divert something much smaller - that tug for example - or , better still, a neutral who happens to be close.

Big hand to the Turkish skipper - always a risk you might be mis-identified

Imagegear

19th Apr 2022, 08:35

Tartiflette Fan

19th Apr 2022, 09:04

I think the Moskwa may be where the kremlin's lies begin to be exposed to harsh light and criticism - that's even without "nit-picking " about the claimed storm against the mill-pond conditions shown on the photos. This ship will have a much higher percentage of specialist, long-contract personnel that any infantry unit/regiment and these long-serving sailors will probably have made their homes, with their families in their home ports e.g. Sevastopol. There will therefore be a large nucleus of families who will know each other/will form support groups very quickly to push for answers about their loved ones. I suppose that there is also a good chance that they will get unofficial support/information from sailors in the local bureaucracy.

If it turns out to be the case that hundreds of sailors have been killed, then I think this is likely to unravel quickly for Putin, with bad - but unquantifiable - results.

Less Hair

19th Apr 2022, 09:09

With all respect but what is 500 more versus 10K plus already KIA?

n5296s

19th Apr 2022, 09:22

I can't help feeling that as soon as someone starts to ask questions of the whereabouts of their son/husband/whatever, they probably get a visit from the FSB strongly recommending that they desist.

Xeptu

19th Apr 2022, 09:33

With all respect but what is 500 more versus 10K plus already KIA?

The probability that those who served on Russia's Flagship are most likely to be the sons of senior officials and Military Personnel, where they thought they would be relatively safe. The notion that they included conscripts is a nonsense.

Tartiflette Fan

19th Apr 2022, 09:37

The probability that those who served on Russia's Flagship are most likely to be the sons of senior officials and Military Personnel, where they thought they would be relatively safe. The notion that they included conscripts is a nonsense.

Any reason to be so absolute, other than your own beliefs ? There are named people in reports who say their sons were conscripts.

Xeptu

19th Apr 2022, 09:42

Any reason to be so absolute, other than your own beliefs ? There are named people in reports who say their sons were conscripts.

They don't know where they are, whether or not they are alive and regardless of what they were told or led to believe, a conscript would be very lucky indeed to serve aboard the Flagship.

dead_pan

19th Apr 2022, 09:45

Any reason to be so absolute, other than your own beliefs ? There are named people in reports who say their sons were conscripts.

Indeed - it is suspected that many/most of the most junior ranks were conscripts. Another instance of 'By law they shouldn't have been there, but they were'.

dead_pan

19th Apr 2022, 09:49

My understanding from what I read, and what I observed on various marine vessel tracking sites - is she likely went down right around where these "tugs and special craft" are still located in the Black Sea. There were nearly a dozen there late last week - but several have remained in that area since then. Recall that in the immediate aftermath of the initial strike - the Russians moved their Black Sea fleet south out of the range of the Neptune - which is approximately 180 miles. That would be consistent with the location of all the naval fuss in the location of these tugs.

As others have noted, this seems to be too far south. My understanding that the vessel was less than 100km from the Ukrainian mainland.

Beamr

19th Apr 2022, 09:51

With all respect but what is 500 more versus 10K plus already KIA?

The sinking of Moskva has been very widely reported in Russian media, and the casualties are much harder to hide for longer period of time. If a conscript (or any other soldier) dies in a tank on a land operation it is not necessarily noticed that quick amongst the population. But such a large scale instant hit like the Moskva with lot of media coverage will raise questions. 10000 KIA within two months of troops that no one actually expects to take contact back home very soon vs possibly 500 KIA in one instance and all the families are trying to get hold of their owns.

To put it this way: in land warfare what type of weapon should be used and in which circumstances to take out 500+ enemy soldiers with a single hit? Such an event would similarily raise questions.

Tartiflette Fan

19th Apr 2022, 10:23

They don't know where they are, whether or not they are alive and regardless of what they were told or led to believe, a conscript would be very lucky indeed to serve aboard the Flagship.

Weird logic. I'm pretty sure that sailors know which ship they are on and will give the correct information to their parents, so when the parents say "he was a conscript on the Moskva, he hasn't phoned us and we can't find him in hospital", I'll take that as being correct.

Xeptu

19th Apr 2022, 10:48

Weird logic. I'm pretty sure that sailors know which ship they are on and will give the correct information to their parents, so when the parents say "he was a conscript on the Moskva, he hasn't phoned us and we can't find him in hospital", I'll take that as being correct.

Well I wouldn't, there is so much BS coming out of Russia it's hard to know for sure. The story and I concede there will be a few, was disputed by the Father himself, he says the story is false, my wife was not with me my sons name is not on any list that he saw and his Sons fate and whereabouts remains unknown, because they wouldn't give me any information at all.

P,S I have no doubt the conscript sailor thought he was to serve on the Moskva along with the other few thousand conscripts.

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 11:00

I cannot find the link but one report said a lot of the survivors lost limbs due to ammo exploding….

meanwhile…

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1143x1188/image_59d699dcdc553487316efe073e93d625e0bf5141.jpeg

Brewster Buffalo

19th Apr 2022, 11:07

....
If it turns out to be the case that hundreds of sailors have been killed, then I think this is likely to unravel quickly for Putin, with bad - but unquantifiable - results.

I remember the shock of the loss of HMS Sheffield..but I don't think it weakened the goverment's, or the public's, resolve to carry on. I suspect the same effect in Russia not withstanding the size of casualty list.

Ninthace

19th Apr 2022, 11:09

So where is the "Turkish ship" that keeps getting mentioned? Why no identification, interviews or pictures? Does it exist?

dead_pan

19th Apr 2022, 11:17

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 11:20

Less Hair

19th Apr 2022, 12:11

Is this the Moskva? Seems to look different?

melmothtw

19th Apr 2022, 12:16

I remember the shock of the loss of HMS Sheffield..but I don't think it weakened the goverment's, or the public's, resolve to carry on. I suspect the same effect in Russia not withstanding the size of casualty list.

What casualty list?

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 12:23

Re the survivors, if I remember correctly my mates were all kitted out with new uniforms before returning home from the Conveyor, also Chinooks collected the wounded off the returning ships and flew them direct to the hospitals dealing with their wounds, as the PM didn’t want the public and press welcoming them home to see lots of wounded soldiers being offloaded after the ships had docked. Plus it also meant they would get to treatment faster.

CargoOne

19th Apr 2022, 12:35

The probability that those who served on Russia's Flagship are most likely to be the sons of senior officials and Military Personnel, where they thought they would be relatively safe. The notion that they included conscripts is a nonsense.

In Russian army NO sons of senior officials are serving in the army or navy. The sons of senior military personnel (not many) would be serving in the command headquarters, Moscow or regional, no need to take the hardship onboard. Military service in Russia is for poor people.

fdr

19th Apr 2022, 12:49

Re the survivors parade, it would appear the inspecting officer is none other than Anton Kuprin the Captain that was reported killed, I suppose being Easter has something to do with that. ;)

https://twitter.com/search?q=Anton%20Kuprin%20&src=typed_query

this is a freeze-frame of the video, this is Capt. Kuprin? More likely that file footage was used in a supposed post sinking photo op, then Capt Anton got resurrected. I mean to say, the chance that the Russians tell the truth about anything is more incredible than the possible resurrection at Easter of Capt Anton, which would you most likely believe... One is a miracle, the other is just not possible.

It could also be the Russian process of "care" for commanders that have had a bit of a problem in the field, just out of order slightly. If Capt Anton is alive at this time, can wonder for how long Putin will permit that before he really does become a fatality of the attack, witha. bit of time slip. But, R.I.P. Capt Anton, and the rest of your crew, you did your duty, as vile as that was, and you did not harm the brave defenders of Snake Island, for that you should be respected. For attacks on Odessa, you do own that Moscow.

Between the two images, if they are indeed both of the former captain, he at least got a star for his efforts. A better radar would probably have helped more.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/533x450/captain_anton_kuprin_533x450_e2fc69827a23b73f8880f6f08a30c6c 8349a6e83.jpeg

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x709/capt_kuprin_qry_0b68de2316f367c6263112ae874d13add60f1f7d.png

SASless

19th Apr 2022, 13:42

In the linked information provided by Nutty.....there is a video purporting to be the instant the Moskva exploded.

The ship in the video (unless my old eyes deceive me....) is showing no signs of smoke or fire then suddenly does in fact suffer a tremendous explosion followed by large bits and pieces falling back to the sea.

If that is the Moskva and the explosion that ultimately sent it to the bottom....why no smoke, flame, or fire before the explosion.

It is daylight...not dark....and the missile attack was supposed to have occurred about 0130 local time.

Beamr

19th Apr 2022, 14:01

In the linked information provided by Nutty.....there is a video purporting to be the instant the Moskva exploded.
.
it is not the moskva, see this from 0:37 onwards

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=um3_6NM6II4

SASless

19th Apr 2022, 15:11

That answers the questions....shame I missed catching that while looking at the chain I saw it at.

petit plateau

19th Apr 2022, 15:11

Good catch, and nice to see a high-res version of this picture.

Checking further, it looks like, the helo desk does have a big hole in it, with, as it seems, penetration from the top and a subsequent big explosion underneath the deck, maybe even 1 or 2 decks lower, inside the ship. Not to mention the crumbling and burn damage visible all over the port side on the deck below the helo deck.

Could it be Neptune Nr 2 did penetrate the helo deck and just blew up the whole inside of the stern section ? Given there will be not that many explosives and/or fuel around there, the only igniting stuff would be the neptune warhead itself with maybe some residual neptune fuel.

This could certainly explain the damage to the rear part of the ship and in front of the helo hangar, the structure below the rear radar dome itself. That part seems to be completely blown up from the inside out.

I think this gives the position (45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E), which seems to be about 40-50m depth which is certainly within jackup depths. This is East of Snake Island which can be seen on the Google map if you zoom in enough. But whether that is the correct position I do not know. It certainly seems rather close to the Ukraine coast for the Russians to want to be carrying out any form of activity.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/45%C2%B010'43.4%22N+30%C2%B055'30.5%22E/@45.6648024,30.3123219,8.15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x4f10f335de4f289a!8m2!3d45.1787194!4d30 .92515

The more southerly location where some folk are reporting AIS activity in 100m+ is definitely not the position above. It seems about 60km to the south. If she took approx 20-hours from impact to sinking, and if the wind was from the north, then that would be a drift of ~3km/h = 1.6 knots. But if it was only 10-hours from hit to sink, then that is 3kts drift. (Excellent timeline @jeepjeep btw.) (Recall the only timing info we have of the hit is the vauge "Maksym Marchenko (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maksym_Marchenko) said their forces hit Moskva in the late hours of 13 April 2022, with two R-360 Neptune (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-360_Neptune) anti-ship missiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ship_missile), and she was on fire around 7 p.m. local time (GMT+3)"., so we really are unsure still regarding time of impact. Might be possible to drift at those rates. Maybe some towing was indeed attempted.

(as a possibly-related aside TB2 use has seemingly been mostly a night-time affair)

If there was any drift the wind was likely the dominant effect vs the currents. Here is a research paper. That area might have had a weak north-setting current from the northern gyre, but seems somewhat inconclusive.
https://tos.org/oceanography/assets/docs/18-2_stanev.pdf

Many folk use offshore 'rig' terminology incorrectly, it is conceivable that they don't know the difference between a semi-sub and a jack-up. For sure if Moskva went down in the 100m+ zone then it will be semi subs they will be needing. Retreiving any special devices from a wreck of this nature at that depth has got to be awkward.

===
I've seen some reports of a third Neptune being involved, but no corroboration ,or indeed any public commentary as to how many were launched. No information out there as to what the TB2 did after the Neptune struck the Moskva. Or even if there were one or more TB2s. They might have been armed, who knows if they contributed with the smaller ordnance that they can carry. A Neptune hitting at that range (given that we don't know how far inland it originated from, or what doglegs were flown) would likely only have expended about half the fuel at the time of impact so remaining propellant would have been pretty significant contributor.

Imagegear

19th Apr 2022, 15:29

One of the crew members said there had been three "detonations".

IG

Recc

19th Apr 2022, 15:39

I think this gives the position (45°10’43.39″N, 30°55’30.54″E), which seems to be about 40-50m depth which is certainly within jackup depths. This is East of Snake Island which can be seen on the Google map if you zoom in enough. But whether that is the correct position I do not know. It certainly seems rather close to the Ukraine coast for the Russians to want to be carrying out any form of activity.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/45%C2%B010'43.4%22N+30%C2%B055'30.5%22E/@45.6648024,30.3123219,8.15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x4f10f335de4f289a!8m2!3d45.1787194!4d30 .92515

Currently marine traffic is showing a jackup in position 45.35597°N / 30.90305°E, which is 10Nm south of the SAR position published by naval news from 15.52UTC on the 13th.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:344323/mmsi:273371830/imo:8763373/vessel:TAVRIDA

WillFlyForCheese

19th Apr 2022, 16:36

Currently marine traffic is showing a jackup in position 45.35597°N / 30.90305°E, which is 10Nm south of the SAR position published by naval news from 15.52UTC on the 13th.
https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:344323/mmsi:273371830/imo:8763373/vessel:TAVRIDA (https://www.marinetraffic.com/en/ais/details/ships/shipid:344323/mmsi:273371830/imo)

That location is consistent with that some people are saying, based on purported analysis of satellite heat imaging. This guy (H I Sutton - Covert Shores (http://www.hisutton.com)) puts the Moskva around that location.

Question - why would a Turkish vessel enter a live war zone to assist? Seems odd - but some day I'm guessing we'll learn more.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/russia_moskva_cruiser_sinking_location_5c4fc35486334aa0cb6f8 7ce1ce6923b2071dc67.jpg

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 17:15

One of the crew members said there had been three "detonations".

IG

it could be a secondary as the ships munitions go up.

ORAC

19th Apr 2022, 17:20

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x558/image_84ba9ff016264d6d255725bc0e92eef6d28faede.jpeg

twochai

19th Apr 2022, 18:13

Did he perhaps mean there had been three "detentions", not detonations.

FullWings

19th Apr 2022, 18:43

An interesting, and on the surface plausible take of what might have happened:

https://youtu.be/GngwrU_JYg8

lelebebbel

19th Apr 2022, 18:51

Does anyone here feel qualified to estimate what effect a 150kg Neptune warhead, plus residual fuel, would have on the occupants of a ship this size when it detonates under the deck?
Just going with what seems pretty certain, that at least one Neptune exploded most likely somewhere in or under the main superstructure, what kind of blast wave and fire would one get before considering secondary explosions, and what could be the survivability under deck?

The conflicting reports on survivors range from all dead to all rescued. Most of them are probably pure fantasy, even the supposed survivors parade video raises more questions than answers, such as: when was that even filmed.

The photos of the ship seems to be the only fairly reliable information we have, and those make me think that the former (all dead) is probably closer to the truth, but i have no qualifications in that area at all, I'm just curious. A lot of people also seem to think that the open hangar door means the helicopter took off after the hit. My guess would be that this is unlikely, unless it happened to be airborne at the time anyways - but again, i am clueless.

Kent Based

19th Apr 2022, 19:43

Would be astonishing if they didn't have the deadlights closed at night and close to an enemy shore (though much about the incident is surprising) . It certainly doesn't look like there would have been any downflooding at the time the photo was taken although she could have been flooding rapidly due to hull damage.

My comment was based on two other member's posts preceeding mine. One detailed the effects of internal explosions destroying the integrity of the seals on watertight doors. Another pointed out the smoke staining around all of the upper portholes. It seemed possible that the blast(s) may have blown out or buckled the seals on the portholes and any covers?

MPN11

19th Apr 2022, 19:50

Assuming that a complacent crew hadn’t even bother to close down, as they weren’t actually at Battle Stations? Just a thought.

We will never know, of course. Speculation is such fun!

Tartiflette Fan

19th Apr 2022, 20:02

An interesting, and on the surface plausible take of what might have happened:

On what basis is it plausible ? I have read nothing that says there were hundreds of drones, or even that Moskva was engaging any of them . AFAIK Neptun is a sea-skimmer ( it's derived from the Kh 35 which has a cruising altitude of 10-15m and terminal of 4m ): the missile in this video is soaring thousand s of feet up. Finally, all previous reports have seemed to assume land-launch; how could that plane remain undetected at that high altitude when it fired the Neptunes ?

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 21:58

Does anyone here feel qualified to estimate what effect a 150kg Neptune warhead, plus residual fuel, would have on the occupants of a ship this size when it detonates under the deck?
Just going with what seems pretty certain, that at least one Neptune exploded most likely somewhere in or under the main superstructure, what kind of blast wave and fire would one get before considering secondary explosions, and what could be the survivability under deck?

.
No idea, BUT an Exocet has about 165kg and you saw Falklands wise what two did to the Conveyor which was a larger ship.

I read somewhere the Helicopter flew some people off but i cannot find the link, if it was a flagship it makes sense to transfer command however the picture below shows the deck rigged for helicopter operations, Ie, railings dropped and flag staff, they are up on the burning ship pictures, but in an emergency I could see anything possible and a contra rotating rotor has no tail rotor low down to worry about, it gives you a clear view of the aft torpedo door too, so a fire in that area could be bad news

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1332x850/image_c9b6818d2bab034872b162eb815c327a015575d8.png

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/image_1aaec086c7735efe6cec379f47d1da632496f935.png

ok translation. (this is what the Neptune was developed from)

Ocean rescue tug project 1452 "Mashuk" of the Pacific Fleet after launching Kh-35U missiles from Su-34 aircraft

damage

https://twitter.com/milinfolive/status/1046022077331853312

NutLoose

19th Apr 2022, 22:08

This is a cracking painting

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x824/image_ea33750d0114b23c5b265d0c8b53880c06c5c3be.png
https://twitter.com/Capt_Navy/status/1516325478059106306/photo/1

Recc

19th Apr 2022, 22:21

My comment was based on two other member's posts preceeding mine. One detailed the effects of internal explosions destroying the integrity of the seals on watertight doors. Another pointed out the smoke staining around all of the upper portholes. It seemed possible that the blast(s) may have blown out or buckled the seals on the portholes and any covers?

Good points, I hadn't spotted the soot staining around the upper portholes.

MickG0105

19th Apr 2022, 23:20

Does anyone here feel qualified to estimate what effect a 150kg Neptune warhead, plus residual fuel, would have on the occupants of a ship this size when it detonates under the deck?

The Exocet strikes on HMS Sheffield and HMS Glamorgan are probably reasonable analogues. There is some conjecture over whether the warhead on the missile that hit Sheffield exploded or not, but it hit roughly amidships and killed twenty and injured twenty-six. The missile that hit Glamorgan didn't penetrate the hull but did explode on the hangar deck, above the crew's galley. Fourteen were killed. Sheffield was a Type 42 destroyer with a crew of around 270; Glamorgan was an older and larger County-class destroyer with around 470 crew.

A few things are worth noting. First, the two ships were at different states of readiness when they were struck; Glamorgan was at action-stations, Sheffield was not. Second, it appears that most of those killed in both instances were killed by the initial explosion rather than the subsequent fires. The layout and condition of the ship's fire-fighting equipment and the quality of training and procedures would have been factors. Third, despite impactful hits, a devastating hit regards Sheffield, total casualties as a percentage of crew was less than 20 percent. We see something not dissimilar with the USS Stark also. Two Exocet hits that were not all that widely separated, both striking fairly densely populated sections of the ship, killed thirty-seven and injured twenty-one out of a crew of 175 or so, a total casualty rate of around 33 percent in this case.

Applying those analogues to the Moskva, the initial impacts and explosions may have killed up to 100-120. Subsequent casualties would, to a large extent, come down to the fire-fighting equipment and training.

MAINJAFAD

20th Apr 2022, 01:07

The Exocet strikes on HMS Sheffield and HMS Glamorgan are probably reasonable analogues. There is some conjecture over whether the warhead on the missile that hit Sheffield exploded or not, but it hit roughly amidships and killed twenty and injured twenty-six. The missile that hit Glamorgan didn't penetrate the hull but did explode on the hangar deck, above the crew's galley. Fourteen were killed. Sheffield and Glamorgan were both Type 42 destroyers with crews of around 270.

A few things are worth noting. First, the two ships were at different states of readiness when they were struck; Glamorgan was at action-stations, Sheffield was not. Second, it appears that most of those killed in both instances were killed by the initial explosion rather than the subsequent fires. The layout and condition of the ship's fire-fighting equipment and the quality of training and procedures would have been factors. Third, despite impactful hits, a devastating hit regards Sheffield, casualties as a percentage of crew were not particularly high. We see something similar with the USS Stark also. Two Exocet hits that were not all that widely separated, both striking fairly densely populated sections of the ship, killed thirty-seven and injured twenty-one out of a crew of 175 or so.

Applying those analogues to the Moskva, the initial impacts and explosions may have killed up to 100-120. Subsequent casualties would, to a large extent, come down to the fire-fighting equipment and training.

Glamorgan was a County class destroyer, not a Type 42. She was 520 feet long, 6200 tons displacement and had a crew of around 470. Batch 1 Type 42 was around 410 feet long, had a displacement of 4350 tons and a crew of 250.

MickG0105

20th Apr 2022, 01:10

Glamorgan was a County class destroyer, not a Type 42. She was 520 feet long, 6200 tons displacement and had a crew of around 470. Batch 1 Type 42 was around 410 feet long, had a displacement of 4350 tons and a crew of 250.
Quite right, my mistake. Glamorgan was the older and larger of the two destroyers. Fixed now in edit.

WillFlyForCheese

20th Apr 2022, 01:56

Octane

20th Apr 2022, 04:11

I would have thought NATO would be providing the Ukranians with lots of very precise targeting information?

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 05:07

On what basis is it plausible ? I have read nothing that says there were hundreds of drones, or even that Moskva was engaging any of them . AFAIK Neptun is a sea-skimmer ( it's derived from the Kh 35 which has a cruising altitude of 10-15m and terminal of 4m ): the missile in this video is soaring thousand s of feet up. Finally, all previous reports have seemed to assume land-launch; how could that plane remain undetected at that high altitude when it fired the Neptunes ?

The Neptune is a land-launched system as advertised, but nothing that the Ukrainians have done to date should make anyone assume that they are not resourceful and committed to their home and families. It took a very short time to make in-flight refuel available in '82, it's not going to take much longer in '22 for a dedicated group to add the Neptune to a rack on an aircraft, and the kh-35/35U came as ASM anyway. Did that happen, why should it? There are easier and more survivable ways to surprise the Russians who have shown a singular failure of imagination and response. I do hope that the Russians continue with their assumption of superiority in numbers "trump"-ing initiative and creativity; a defeat in place of the Russian Black Sea fleet, BSF, is overdue. As Boyd contended, and "Sub" Tzu alludes to, getting inside the decision process of the red team changes the game. When the Ukrainians finally disclose how they approached the Moskva it will be interesting reading, and I hope that doesn't occur before the same tactic removes the remaining BSF from the top of the water to the bottom. Nothing personal, Vlad the impaler, just get out of Ukraine, the criminal and genocidal invasion is unwelcome.

Tartiflette Fan

20th Apr 2022, 05:36

The Neptune is a land-launched system as advertised, but nothing that the Ukrainians have done to date should make anyone assume that they are not resourceful and committed to their home and families. .

You seem to be saying that "theoretically possible" is the same as "plausible". Time for a re-set perhaps .

jolihokistix

20th Apr 2022, 05:58

Cynical mode off for a moment, I heard that they had launched it from around 15~20 km inland.

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 06:49

You seem to be saying that "theoretically possible" is the same as "plausible". Time for a re-set perhaps .

Necessity is the mother of invention. Ukraine is the technical center of advanced weapons for Russia, something that Putin forgot about apparently as he finds himself short of spares for planes and systems. I'm saying that there are a number of ways the missile system can be deployed by inventive and motivated people to get some surprise to the Russians who remain fighting the Great Patriotic War. Duck hunting season for the Russian fleet may be open.

dead_pan

20th Apr 2022, 08:45

US maritime surveillance plane was over Black Sea minutes before Russian flagship Moskva was ‘hit by Ukrainian missiles’
Did the US supply Ukraine with location of Moskva? (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10733677/Moskva-sinking-Did-supply-Kyiv-location-Black-Sea-flag-ship.html)

if true - it’s interesting. I would have thought, at most, a NATO surveillance plane would have located her. It will be interesting to see any response if the US provided Ukraine with the precise location.

There was a concentration of NATO ISR effort along the very eastern edge of Romania in the days prior to the attack on the Moskva (as discussed on various spotter blogs). My working assumption at the time was that 'we' were trying to get a handle on events in eastern Ukraine, but who knows?

That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.

What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?

I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.

The Helpful Stacker

20th Apr 2022, 10:08

I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.

Indeed.

Perhaps Putin is certain that NATO assisted in the sinking of Moskva but outright stating so would require him to respond in some form, something that it's increasingly obvious Russia would be ill-equipped to do?

This would also tie in with the increasing 'freedom' NATO countries are exploiting to provide Ukraine with larger and more potent weapon systems. Russia keeps making noise about "consequences" but what can Russia realistically do?

Fitter2

20th Apr 2022, 10:20

B Fraser

20th Apr 2022, 10:26

I would have thought, at most, a NATO surveillance plane would have located her.

Why be so obvious when there are probably an endless stream of satellites covering the region ?

Beamr

20th Apr 2022, 10:38

Why be so obvious when there are probably an endless stream of satellites covering the region ?
The aircrafts in question pick up a bit more information than a satellite does. Especially if there is a cloud layer.

Sailvi767

20th Apr 2022, 11:16

There was a concentration of NATO ISR effort along the very eastern edge of Romania in the days prior to the attack on the Moskva (as discussed on various spotter blogs). My working assumption at the time was that 'we' were trying to get a handle on events in eastern Ukraine, but who knows?

That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.

What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?

I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.

The USAF currently has no deployable tactical EW assts. They are in the process of standing up a unit. Currently they use the Growlers by agreement.

The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.

dead_pan

20th Apr 2022, 11:17

This would also tie in with the increasing 'freedom' NATO countries are exploiting to provide Ukraine with larger and more potent weapon systems. Russia keeps making noise about "consequences" but what can Russia realistically do?

Maybe Moskva was a test to see how the Russians responded? If they bleat a bit, we'll reign back in a bit, if not, lets up the ante.

Also, the missile blitz the Russians unleashed in response to this 'non-provocation' (in their eyes, at least publicly) has given the West the perfect excuse to ramp up supplies of AD weaponry and aircraft spares. Russia seems to be outplayed at every turn.

dead_pan

20th Apr 2022, 11:20

The USAF currently has no deployable tactical EW assts. They are in the process of standing up a unit. Currently they use the Growlers by agreement.

The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.

Ok thanks. As conspiracy theories go I thought it had some legs....

Toadstool

20th Apr 2022, 11:31

The USAF currently has no deployable tactical EW assts. They are in the process of standing up a unit. Currently they use the Growlers by agreement.

The USAF has been without a dedicated electronic warfare aircraft since it retired the General Dynamics EF-111A Raven in 1998. Instead, the service has relied on the US Navy’s (USN’s) Northrop Grumman EA-6B Prowler and most recently the Boeing EA-18G Growler via the Joint Airborne Electronic Attack Program. As part of that joint effort, personnel from the USAF’s 390th Electronic Combat Squadron are based at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington State.

I don’t suppose you could call the EC130 Compass Call a “tactical” EW aircraft but it performs much the same role as the growler.

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 11:53

Given the performance of the Russian armed forces against Ukraine over the past 8 weeks, and their attrition rates, it is pretty obvious that for Putin to declare war on NATO (deliberately attacking any 1 NATO state amounts to the same thing), then the resultant defeat would be far reaching and inevitable. Sure, NATO forces would suffer some significant losses, but Russia would be forced to evacuate all the territory they have claimed, including all of East Ukraine and Crimea, and end up with zero military capability. Their only alternative would be to start a MAD WW3. Would the chain of command 'break down' if the order was given?

Not going to happen.

The wild cards would be the opportunity for the Disasterstans to change their client state status with Russia. The Moldovans may have a bit of a say with Transnistria as well if Russia really gets a major defeat through their dissaray and depleted arms. I cannot see why anyone wants to have a piece of Russia, sure G.U.M. was worth a visit, the underground was, meh, antique, St Basils is neat. The Kremlin is not a great bit of architecture, not like.... Dubrovnik, Ljubljana castle, Barokna Kabija, Halászbástya, Schloss Stolzenfels, Kölner Dom, Il Duomo, Rovinj, Arienzo. In fact, Moscow was about as inviting as Mangakino. Half of Russia is set up to grow the staples to make Vodka, and the other half of the country is the reason you need Vodka. Except for St Petersburg, that is speshul. Otherwise, don't see why anyone wants to invade Russia proper unless to get a T-Shirt saying "I went to Norilsk, and it is the most depressing city in the world". The paradox of Russia is the people are in fact warm, while stuck in a cold, inhospitable dangerous country, and that isn't talking about the weather, that is just the incumbents of the Kremlin. Russian literature is often described as being depressive, or just sad, but Vladimir Nabokov maintained that Chekhov wrote “sad books for humorous people”, because “only a reader with a sense of humor can truly appreciate their sadness”. Dostoevsky, Pasternak, Tolstoy, etc make you wish to lose your own sight, so you would have a great excuse to be so depressed by reading the stories. (I think Victor Hugo was Russian at heart). Yet, Russia gave the world Andre Sakharov, and that counts for something (the USA gave the world Edward Teller, and listening to him give a graduation speech was the most horrifying moment of my life). Sure the rest of the world gets sad, William Golding, Khaled Hosseini, Ian McEwan, Kazuo Ishiguro, etc..., all should be honorary Russians.

Less Hair

20th Apr 2022, 11:56

What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 12:08

There was a concentration of NATO ISR effort along the very eastern edge of Romania in the days prior to the attack on the Moskva (as discussed on various spotter blogs). My working assumption at the time was that 'we' were trying to get a handle on events in eastern Ukraine, but who knows?

That said, Moskva's whereabouts would have have been relatively easy to determine, given that it is one enormous radio/radar emitter.

What is intriguing is the deployment of six USN EA-18G into Poland a few weeks ago. Why these particular aircraft, given the USAF have their own EW assets? USN keen to get in on the action, or maybe they have some specific capabilities useful for engagements with Russian naval vessels?

I and others have commented on social media that Russia could quite easily - and credibly - implicated NATO in the sinking. The fact that they didn't even hint at this speaks volumes.

In the middle of the pond, with no surface threat worth a damn, wondering why they would not have emcon in force. What would they be radiating for? just curious. As soon as they radiate on the topsail etc, they are able to be identified and triangulated, and even in a presumed low threat environment, they would not have a pressing reason to break emcon. Unless things have changed since the days we did that sort of stuff. I can imagine they would radiate the palm frond intermittently, at least in sector scans, but beyond that, what was the benefit to them, unless they knew that there was a specific threat. The story of the prior days events may give a reason for that, but golly, anything beyond a random search transmission would be asking for a bad day. May have some bias on that, my recollection from chasing boomers at the end of the cold war was the USSR boat drivers were pretty good, their rides were noisy, and the skimmers were happy to track us with their weapons at all times, they seemed quite competent then, prone to sunbathing on the fantail.

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 12:16

What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?

Sending Putin to:

Lefortovo,
Госуда́рственный нау́чный центр социа́льной и суде́бной психиатри́и им. В. П. Се́рбского, or
the "St Petersburg Caviar Repository".

That'll do it. Beware who takes over afterward though, the next 100 cabs off the rank also come from the same place. If they installed Navalny they could get sanctions removed pretty quickly, but he is always going to be a target from the former KGB mafia.

Lonewolf_50

20th Apr 2022, 12:20

What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?
I don't think that there is one. The loss of face has already occurred.
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).

dead_pan

20th Apr 2022, 12:23

What would they be radiating for? just curious.

Well, maybe the canny Ukrainians put up a TB2 in the area every night or so to keep them honest?

Given the lax conduct of almost every branch of the Russia mil, I wouldn't at all surprised if they didn't bother with emcon ("we're an invincible carrier killer - Ukraine doesn't pose any threat to us!")

Kiltrash

20th Apr 2022, 14:21

fitliker

20th Apr 2022, 14:39

Let’s hope they do not read the papers !!
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/apr/20/navy-spy-plane-tracked-russian-warship-moskva-it-w/?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS
Print
By Mike Glenn (https://www.washingtontimes.com/staff/mike-glenn/) - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 20, 2022A U.S. Navy surveillance aircraft was reportedly tracking the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet on April 13 in the hours before it was hit by Ukrainian forces.

The British Daily Mail newspaper reported that the Navy’s P-8 Poseidon was providing targeting data to Ukrainian forces, making it possible for them to fire a pair of Neptune missiles at the guided-missile cruiser Moskva while it was patrolling south of Odesa.

The Kremlin initially claimed the damage to the Moskva was the result of an onboard explosion caused by a fire. The warship later sank as it was being towed back to Russia-controlled Crimea for repairs.

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 15:03

Let’s hope they do not read the papers !!.

:}

They certainly don't read their own papers.

What is needed is a whole bunch of empty B737s to do circuits of the Black Sea, Sea of Okhotsk, off North Cape etc, to just add to the fun quotient of the Russians. They do that and they don't expect others to do it back?

For what it's worth the 12" GWX-70 will pick up the same size target at 60nm, and you can add that to a Cessna Caravan. Plonk in a whole bunch of turtle packs, and pack a lunch and lots of coffee. There is some really neat synthetic aperture sidescan radar systems that can be strapped to the same clunker, and that will give a photo-realistic image in real-time with L/L, COG/SOG etc. not going to be great at avoiding power poles when they get launched, but still there's a lot of the Black sea to deny from the Russians. Great for hour building. bring a parachute and an immersion suit.

dead_pan

20th Apr 2022, 15:10

As enlightenment goes this thread about a current ' war ' situation and supposed Western assets in the area, is this a case of ' walls have ears ' ??
I'm sure nothing on here will be ' News ' to the Russians, but are we sure?

Are you suggesting that WW3 may be declared because of what someone said on PPRuNe? Wouldn't be the first time. .

petit plateau

20th Apr 2022, 15:30

In the middle of the pond, with no surface threat worth a damn, wondering why they would not have emcon in force. What would they be radiating for? just curious. As soon as they radiate on the topsail etc, they are able to be identified and triangulated, and even in a presumed low threat environment, they would not have a pressing reason to break emcon. Unless things have changed since the days we did that sort of stuff. I can imagine they would radiate the palm frond intermittently, at least in sector scans, but beyond that, what was the benefit to them, unless they knew that there was a specific threat. The story of the prior days events may give a reason for that, but golly, anything beyond a random search transmission would be asking for a bad day. May have some bias on that, my recollection from chasing boomers at the end of the cold war was the USSR boat drivers were pretty good, their rides were noisy, and the skimmers were happy to track us with their weapons at all times, they seemed quite competent then, prone to sunbathing on the fantail.

The whole point of the Russians putting a floating S300 battery with its radars & etc in that location is to emit like crazy, and shoot down everything they can reach over Ukraine or coming out of Ukraine. The Moskva gave the Russians coverage that they could not get from any other naval asset*, or from any available (non-threatened) shore location. The downside of being an emitter is that triangulation is a thing. And then somebody gets a precise ID and more accurate location and bad things happen.

* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.

Kiltrash

20th Apr 2022, 15:40

Just want to publicly acknowledge fdr's PM to me. Very informative
Thanks fdr

NutLoose

20th Apr 2022, 15:49

I don't think that there is one. The loss of face has already occurred.
The more practical question is what degree of, or level of, sanctions relief will be achievable via negotiations once a cease fire is arranged?
(And that will eventually come to pass, hopefully sooner than later).

Putin could fall out of the window of his secret underground bunker?

tdracer

20th Apr 2022, 19:22

Putin could fall out of the window of his secret underground bunker?
I'm thinking that 'they' could simply declare Putin a traitor to Mother Russia, that intentionally mislead his country into this ill-fated attack, and arrest him (never to be seen from again). I recall it was quite the surprise when Khrushchev was deposed, perhaps it could happen again...

T28B

20th Apr 2022, 20:29

I have moved the thread digression based on a political rant to Jet Blast.
DDG-37 the Mil Av forum isn't where you grind that political ax.
Please take that sort of topic to Jet Blast.
Further guidance is provided here (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/639666-ukraine-about-have-war-250.html#post11217359)

FullWings

20th Apr 2022, 21:40

I would have thought that there were NATO assets surveilling the whole area 24/7 from ground/air/sea and LEO, so headlines that the Moskva was being tracked are true but not really worthy of mention, as anything larger than a squirrel with a tin hat on would be getting attention from military AI...

GlobalNav

20th Apr 2022, 22:01

What would be credible exit scenarios for the Russian government to end this war without losing face?

Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.

Doors Off

20th Apr 2022, 23:09

Except for complete denial of obvious truths, Putin has irreversibly lost face already. No avoiding that. Survival should be his primary objective, not esteem. Best move for now would be to remove Russian forces from all Ukrainian territories, stand down and face the music re: sanctions, reparations and International Criminal Court.
Sadly and Historically, Dictators such as Tsar Vladovich have form in their “personality” traits and the “yes” men they surround themselves with.

Their lot is all or all, no nothing. It only ends in “Victory” or their own death by a self, close circle or public termination of their horrid existence. There are of course a few very rare exceptions, Idi Amin being one. I doubt Vladovich would accept exile in China or North Korea (probably the only 2 countries that would have him).

Vladovich’s “reign” is mirroring the late Romanov’s, it is only the Russian people that can stop him and his thieving Corruptocrats.

fdr

20th Apr 2022, 23:33

The whole point of the Russians putting a floating S300 battery with its radars & etc in that location is to emit like crazy, and shoot down everything they can reach over Ukraine or coming out of Ukraine. The Moskva gave the Russians coverage that they could not get from any other naval asset*, or from any available (non-threatened) shore location. The downside of being an emitter is that triangulation is a thing. And then somebody gets a precise ID and more accurate location and bad things happen.

* The other Russian vessels have much shorter range anti-air missile systems and associated radars. There is basically now a very significant hole in the Russian coverage that I am sure is receiving attention by all sorts of people.

Well, that is a tactic, expensive on hulls but it is an option. A continuous emitter is going to be an invitation for the other side to assist in saving on fleet maintenance costs by scratching the skimmer from the fleet. The Russians have AEW capability, sort of, from within their own national boundaries that would seem to be without the risk of loss of hundreds of conscripted crew per target, and the ire from the families about being lied to by the Kremlin.

I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.

petit plateau

21st Apr 2022, 13:32

Well, that is a tactic, expensive on hulls but it is an option. A continuous emitter is going to be an invitation for the other side to assist in saving on fleet maintenance costs by scratching the skimmer from the fleet. The Russians have AEW capability, sort of, from within their own national boundaries that would seem to be without the risk of loss of hundreds of conscripted crew per target, and the ire from the families about being lied to by the Kremlin.

I really think that the whole Russian fleet should be emitting, it helps the Ukrainians, who could use more help from the Russian Navy much as they have been assisted by the Russian army strategic planning and logistics system.

The Moskva ought to have been able to handle the scenario, at least up until impact. Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for. From the very limited information we have the observed (poor) performance seems most odd. I suspect there is a lot of the story that has yet to come out.

Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.

For Ukraine this is a very good result.

fdr

21st Apr 2022, 14:20

The Moskva ought to have been able to handle the scenario, at least up until impact. Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for. From the very limited information we have the observed (poor) performance seems most odd. I suspect there is a lot of the story that has yet to come out.

Suggesting that the Moskva should not have been emitting is like suggesting that any & all of the other S300 batteries should not be emitting in case they too become targets. That's not the way Integrated Air Defence Systems (IADS) work. Some things have to be emitters and take their chances. I don't think the Russians have done anything with their AEW assets on the south and east sides, so far I have only seen reports of them on the north side, often operating out of Belarus.

For Ukraine this is a very good result.

Good points. Running a Top Pair/Top Steer/Top Dome radar continuously on a boat, or a high screen/billboard or similar on the turf, would be a magnet for an ARM which the Russians have in some number, apparently enough of those to fire them off boresight without an emitter evident, but anyway, there is enough RF out there to be radiating when you have an expected need. Not big on helping the other side. If the RFS "Ronson" was a radar picket ship, then that too was an unfortunate choice. It was the flagship of the fleet, back in the day, radar pickets if required were not usually the capital ship of the fleet. Maybe tactics have changed, but it is a great thing to have an emitter sitting on the top of the tub you want to splash. The Ropucha's have Air/Surface search radars... maybe they are worth more than the Ronson.

rattman

21st Apr 2022, 20:35

Providing air defence for a task force over a large area is exactly what she was designed for.

She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.

ORAC

22nd Apr 2022, 11:01

Ukraine doing a bit of trolling…

Ukraine’s government has officially registered the Moskva cruiser wreck on the Black Sea bottom as a national underwater cultural heritage site

MPN11

22nd Apr 2022, 11:13

Wonderful to see a sense of humour being demonstrated in such awful times. :ok:

petit plateau

22nd Apr 2022, 13:27

She was not designed for that, she was designed to glass cannon herself into carrier task force. Her radar and AAW systems were desgined to her alive long enough against the carriers fighters long enough to launch her missiles. Her survival time in this situation was measured in hours.

That is a fair description of any Russian design. Western designs of that vintage had projected lifespans of a very similar magnitude in that scenario.

(The S300 etc on the Moskva ought not to have been just for show. I think there is a lot more about this engagement that we still don't know.)

NutLoose

22nd Apr 2022, 13:41

From the link I posted in jetblast.

The Russian Navy continues operating in the Black Sea, Operational Command South reports (https://fb.watch/cxpRdnMrFO/). It continues to block civilian shipping. The Black Sea Fleet conducts maritime surveillance, building a recognized maritime picture. It also searches the site where Russia’s Black Sea flagship Moskva sank. (The navy might be searching for traces of radiation from the nuclear weapons the warship most probably was carrying, or simply searching for missing sailors – HPM).

Jack D

22nd Apr 2022, 15:57

I don’t suppose you could call the EC130 Compass Call a “tactical” EW aircraft but it performs much the same role as the growler.

Surely nothing beats a Growler ?

FakePilot

22nd Apr 2022, 19:58

I kinda surprised people thought the Moskva would survive anything. The US has demonstrated multiple times that correctly applied EW reduces the best missile air defense system to unguided rockets. I'm sure the UA got some equipment and help to do this.
That's with the assumption that the Moskva was even able to perform to begin with.

WillFlyForCheese

22nd Apr 2022, 20:54

oxenos

22nd Apr 2022, 22:09

I have photocopies of a proposal my grandfather submitted to the Admiralty for a submarine rescue ship in 1906, complete with drawings. (The originals I sent on permanent loan to the submarine museum)
The layout of the ship he proposed is exactly that of the Kommuna, but slightly smaller. (220' length, 40'beam, against 310 X 60). Submarines were pretty small in 1906.
Attached is a letter from the Admiralty, saying that he was to be commended for his efforts, but that it was not proposed to adopt them.
In the same letter, he proposed that submarines should have a bouy installed in the casing, which could be released from inside the boat if it could not.surface.
When I joined Coastal Command in 1964, I realised that every submarine in the world carried such a bouy,(Or more usually two.)
Perhaps I should demand royalties from the world's navies, and use the funds to endow a lifeboat in his name.
Since he made his proposal in 1906, and Russia stated Kommuna in 1911, perhaps there was a mole in The Admiralty.

macmp419

22nd Apr 2022, 22:36

Russia Deploys Unusual 110-Year-Old Ship To Investigate Moskva WreckKommuna set to investigate Moskva Wreck (http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Navy-Moskva-Cruiser-Wreck.html)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x375/russia_rescue_ship_kommuna_sevastopol_24ea95ffcc5f5be481c2fb c97f1bfe61b278115d.jpg

Must be something down there that they are keen to recover if they are deploying that.

Hope it goes the same way as Moskva if it even makes it that far.

NutLoose

22nd Apr 2022, 23:32

That reminds me of the USA secret recovery of a Soviet sub under the guise of mining manganese nodules off the seabed.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/during-cold-war-ci-secretly-plucked-soviet-submarine-ocean-floor-using-giant-claw-180972154/

I would imagine weapons, technology, radar, codes etc are on the recovery list.

They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.

Kingbird87

22nd Apr 2022, 23:42

I don’t suppose you could call the EC130 Compass Call a “tactical” EW aircraft but it performs much the same role as the growler.

Actually that is exactly what Compass Call is and was designed for. I flew them for four years, and while we were continually tasked to perform “collection” missions, it was the SEAD IAD rollback of specifically comms and IFF/SIF, RSBN,SVOD nav that made it a tactical platform. The “endless wars” changed all of that.

etrang

23rd Apr 2022, 09:10

Surely nothing beats a Growler ?

Two growlers?

Toadstool

23rd Apr 2022, 10:23

Actually that is exactly what Compass Call is and was designed for. I flew them for four years, and while we were continually tasked to perform “collection” missions, it was the SEAD IAD rollback of specifically comms and IFF/SIF, RSBN,SVOD nav that made it a tactical platform. The “endless wars” changed all of that.

Thanks King. In my clumsy way, I was trying to say that the USAF does have such a capability.

I have 3 friends that have recently served at DM on the platform.

Asturias56

23rd Apr 2022, 12:48

"I kinda surprised people thought the Moskva would survive anything. The US has demonstrated multiple times that correctly applied EW reduces the best missile air defense system to unguided rockets. "

Interesting post FP - but I suspect that both the British in the Falkland's and the Russians recently also had great faith in their ability to avoid a massive strike on a warship.

I think there are two problems - one is you don't know exactly how someone is going to fight a war until you get in the fight and secondly navies, because they have a relatively few, long lived and expensive platforms are reluctant to talk about losing any of them in a fight and so, when they do, the shock is that much greater. I'm sure the USN would do better than the Russian's but the opposition might be a lot greater than the Ukrainians have mounted at sea so far.

Smilin_Ed

24th Apr 2022, 22:32

In the 1990s, I went aboard one of the visiting Russian ships in Norfolk. I and another retired navy friend observed generally poor condition as discussed in earlier posts. There was much overpainting of rust and other forms of corrosion. We were not permitted to go below decks but obviously they don't properly maintain their metal on the weather decks. I would suspect that things below deck would not be any better. From that, I would infer that things like fire-fighting equipment would also lack proper attention.

Asturias56

25th Apr 2022, 06:57

Things change tho' early '00's we were guests on a small Russian warship in the Black Sea and you could have eaten off the deck. First engine room I've ever been in where I didn't have to scrub oil off my hands afterwards either.........................

jolihokistix

25th Apr 2022, 07:04

Just read an article explaining that the deck of the Slava class is covered in wooden planking, and the ship has way too many portholes, windows etc., too close to the waterline, making them very dangerous in a fire situation.

Mariner9

25th Apr 2022, 08:55

The many tankers in the Russian Merchant fleet I've been on are generally in good nick, but then they have to be to pass Oil Major/Trader vetting, Port State Control etc. Officers and crew are generally fairly competent too, but happily for my line of work, do screw up periodically.

dead_pan

25th Apr 2022, 09:04

They will be buggered if the Ukrainians drop that one on top of it.

Good point. There's isn't going to be much drift in the 100m of so of seawater between it and the Moskva if they do sink it.

Have to say it does make a very tempting target...

fdr

25th Apr 2022, 09:35

Good point. There's isn't going to be much drift in the 100m of so of seawater between it and the Moskva if they do sink it.

Have to say it does make a very tempting target...

Great diving spot though, so long as you are wearing a lead drysuit and have a windscreen washer on your mask to wash the mud off from the Black Sea water. Sounds like there were indeed nukes on board, as postulated, so there will be a need for radiological monitoring of the ocean, like K219, and... etc... Low likelihood of leakage, but then so was the self immolation of 3 oil farms, 3 ships, etc. It is in relatively shallow water, so there is the issue of pilferage. Wasn't there a Bond film like that?

Moskva is lying in about 25 fathoms/51m, more or less, so is not a deep dive. Deep enough. If she is on her side, then her uppermost part of the hull is only 30m/ from the surface. If she sank level, then she is a hazard to shipping but would make a great diving wreck. she drew 8m roughly, and there was a mast height of around 56m, of which some will have fallen off, maybe. if she was sitting flat on the bottom, there would be about 10m of mast out of the water, so, she is probably on her side, they did say she rolled over. so her SS-N missiles will be sitting at least 2 of them, around 30m from the surface. Assumed she had a minimum load out of 4 nukes, it may be 2, but it won't be less than that number, and it will be shipshape an even number. The loadout would want the nukes in the safest location for which a case could be made is tubes 1,3, 2 & 4. alternatively tubes 13,14,15 & 16. Radiologically the forward tubes would be safest for the crew, but as the Russian navy doesn't care about the crew, then the missiles would be safer around the aft tubes, and that could be an issue. The strike was around the CIC area or slightly aft of tube 16, so there could be damage, but none was able to be seen in the snapshots.

FakePilot

25th Apr 2022, 19:51

Before battle in the old days battleships would chop up their wood paneling and throw it overboard. Guess The Moskva wasn't in "fighting trim"

FakePilot

25th Apr 2022, 20:14

Computer processing power is what makes or mostly breaks EW. (Computer processing power can also turn a crap sensor into an eagle eye). Off the shelf components will not beat custom components (except at $$$). The Russians can't make the custom specific hardware - this puts them roughly 20 years behind no matter what.
They use to compensate somewhat by being clever but I'll bet all the clever people have defected. My favorite was 10 ns delay? 10 foot circuit lead traced around the outside edge of the circuit board.

Asturias56

26th Apr 2022, 07:18

Lonewolf_50

28th Apr 2022, 20:39

Interesting - a review of the PLA(N) a few years back pointed out how many of their radar systems were lifted directly from a wide range of commercial (and I mean COMMERCIAL here - as in tankers and cruise ships) western and far eastern kit. Easy to do and quick and cheap to update but a definite issue with capability Interesting that you mention this. Back in the 70's the SH-2D had an LN-66 Marconi radar equipped which was, IIRC, a cut and paste from a ship based Marconi radar and (EW signature wise) nearly the same. For the SH-2F (which I flew in the 80's) they wanted more range and we had a modified LN-66 (the LN-66HP if memory serves) that had a unique signature. (Or so the EW shop told us).
There are plenty of good brains in China, I suspect they may be able to mod/upgrade some of that commercial stuff into improved kit.

NutLoose

28th Apr 2022, 20:52

Surely nothing beats a Growler ?

Well oddly enough, the Navy wants to disband the 5 land based squadrons and send all the 25 aircraft into storage.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/navy-wants-to-send-25-ea-18g-growlers-to-the-boneyard

NutLoose

28th Apr 2022, 20:58

They think they have the location of the sinking identified from an oil slick leaking from the ship.

H I Sutton - Covert Shores (http://www.hisutton.com/Russian-Navy-Moskva-Cruiser-Wreck-Found.html)

Lonewolf_50

28th Apr 2022, 21:09

NutLoose: thanks for the link. Here's a bit of interest to this thread from the end of that article:
The loss of Moskva may have made the Russian Navy less brazen in its operations off Odesa, but they have not stopped entirely. Four-ship formation of corvettes was seen today along with possible submarine movements. Many less defended Russian ships continue to sail unescorted, especially closer to the Crimean coast.

Una Due Tfc

28th Apr 2022, 21:59

It’s ok though, they have Flipper and co defending them now. I’d like to see a Neptune get through that!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/russia-black-sea-military-dolphins-crimea

fdr

29th Apr 2022, 04:48

It’s ok though, they have Flipper and co defending them now. I’d like to see a Neptune get through that!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/russia-black-sea-military-dolphins-crimea

They may have flipper, but the Ukrainians have a flush for that too.

The removal of the commanding Admiral of the Black Sea Fleet was commemorated in appropriate Russian style and ceremony:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x639/screen_shot_2022_04_29_at_12_45_23_pm_5d494e6371fd6729e7c53b 4e23e80e97e2264e78.png

fdr

29th Apr 2022, 05:02

NutLoose: thanks for the link. Here's a bit of interest to this thread from the end of that article:

Interesting. The Black Sea OOB has a lot of ship-to-ship capability, but the Kilo's have 3M-54 Kalibr which are capable land-attack cruise missiles. Wonder how many remain in their inventory. Ukraine is pretty light on ASW capability, but AEW and point defence might be interesting.

fdr

29th Apr 2022, 05:33

Sevastopol is reminiscent of Pearl.... nice line up of tubs set a little away from civilians

Admiral Grigorovich/Krivak IV 's x 2, 2 x Krivak's
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x453/north_side_9a3123b66e2f630e3f49ee68d49618e874b6f25c.png

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/806x617/n2_c251a46a797650b81b12bf318a5cc677b0ef1021.png

Ropucha and... Tapir/Alligator
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/763x681/s1__f7534858ad561d5e4f1f89d6c4e51b3a7c461a34.png

Ropucha

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/763x572/s2_cbf6026e09ca239d4dd5519541d55794abbd5c3e.png

Udaloy

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/763x312/udaloy_d922213d844a130ab938c887a4d5fc1eed72c14a.png

This Kilo (B-871 or B-271?) looks like it isn't going anywhere at present... wonder when th happy snap was taken, she was supposed to be back growing barnacles in Dec 21.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1008x417/kila_dry_dock_b3417e07b683d38228719dcff2139db54c628f71.png

Nicely lined up. So, how far does the R-360 reach out?

Ninthace

29th Apr 2022, 07:52

How old are those shots? Looks the same as GoogleEarth pictures.

golder

29th Apr 2022, 08:36

fdr

29th Apr 2022, 08:59

How old are those shots? Looks the same as GoogleEarth pictures.

they are 2022, from GE...

these however, are every 60 minutes... and just commercial

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x714/screen_shot_2022_04_29_at_5_06_18_pm_e2179389f629f9c072ca952 9309c8396883ed0f7.png

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/864x484/screen_shot_2022_04_29_at_5_07_39_pm_3f4045dd0f1488517d28172 a4f6dc8c86c9e0614.png

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x787/screen_shot_2022_04_29_at_5_10_35_pm_bacdb875efcc4a6fecd1487 5b07a927d32532b72.png

Kent Based

30th Apr 2022, 11:57

MickG0105

2nd May 2022, 08:18

I've heard the clam that Moskva had her radars in the stowed position in the images just before her capsizing. Is anyone on here able to comment on that?
The suggestion being that she was not able to detect incoming threats or respond to them.
The pictures taken from the recovery vessel show the Top Dome fire control radar (the ice cream cone on the helo hangar roof) for the SA-N-6 missiles was slewed astern in the usual transit position. Having noted that, given the likely detection range of the incoming missiles and the reaction time for the SA-N-6 it is unlikely that it not being in play would have been critical.

It is difficult to see any of the other radars, search or fire control, due to the smoke but what is clear is that the port SA-N-4 pop-up launcher was not deployed.

That would leave anti-missile defence to the CIWS so it would be interesting to see the disposition of the Bass Tilt fire control radars for the those guns. Neither of those radars is visible in any of the pictures I've seen.

WideScreen

2nd May 2022, 09:41

Speaking about the radars, when viewing the configuration (before the destroy action), I somewhat get the impression, these radars do not have a free 360 view. Maybe a free view for targets coming from higher up, though below 30 degrees with the horizon, the super structure seems to block the free view in some directions, including to the front.

vinbaverb

3rd May 2022, 14:39

That doesn't look like an Udaloy.. More likely a modified Kashin class destroyer

MickG0105

3rd May 2022, 21:11

That doesn't look like an Udaloy.. More likely a modified Kashin class destroyer
Yes, it's definitely a Kashin, the 2 x 2 quad funnel configuration is a dead give away. It's almost certainly the Project 01090 modernised-Kashin Smetlivy. She's a museum ship.

uxb99

6th May 2022, 09:45

Seems another Russian naval asset has been hit.
"Admiral Grigorovich-class frigate of the Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet is reportedly on fire near Zmiiny island in Black Sea. Rescue operation ongoing, multiple aircraft, rescue vessels in the area "
Sorry can't post links yet.

Less Hair

6th May 2022, 09:50

Backgrounder of what is "juiciest" left and capabilities left.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/05/06/the-russian-frigate-admiral-makarov-might-be-the-juiciest-target-in-the-black-sea/?sh=4335297174d5

Wokkafans

6th May 2022, 09:51

This was doing the rounds about 12 hours ago but hasn't been confirmed/denied. I did find this on Telegram so usual caveats apply:

"A Russian frigate is burning near Zmiiny. "The Neptune missiles hit the Admiral Makarov frigate," said People's Deputy Goncharenko. There is no other confirmation yet."

If true it might explain why there was a RAF Rivet Joint south of Crimea.

https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1522349841807986688?s=20&t=zOuSJLSmtW1bd1yY3AvUQA

https://twitter.com/Marusja54/status/1522475957491318785?s=20&t=zOuSJLSmtW1bd1yY3AvUQA

ORAC

6th May 2022, 09:54

Frigate reported burning off Zmliny (Snake) Island.

Rescue operations reported under way.

https://twitter.com/liveuamap/status/1522507395750146048?s=21&t=oNWBS4dc80xdxrXfhhX6gA

pasta

6th May 2022, 10:20

dead_pan

6th May 2022, 10:50

If true, will be interesting to hear what caused the fire.

Various reports in the Western media that the US provided intelligence contributing to the sinking of Moskva, but of course that can't be true because we all know it was an ammunition fire.

Given how frequently - and readily - every military-related installation seems to spontaneously combust across Russia, one might wonder if they've angered their God?

WB627

6th May 2022, 14:31

Reportedly video of frigate Admiral Makarov on fire. No sign of any rescue boats

https://twitter.com/i/status/1522575559112470528

dead_pan

6th May 2022, 14:49

Reportedly video of frigate Admiral Makarov on fire. No sign of any rescue boats

That looks fake to me

SpazSinbad

6th May 2022, 15:26

Warship Moskva was Blind to Ukrainian Missile Attack, Analysis Shows - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2022/05/05/warship-moskva-was-blind-to-ukrainian-missile-attack-analysis-shows) 05 May 2022

NutLoose

6th May 2022, 16:50

For a modern ship taken out and on fire it appears to have good protection from a missile attack
posted on Twitter, I wonder if the island masked it approach?
4/ Per Wiki, Admiral Makarov and sisters have 24 surface-to-air missiles and 2 × AK-630 CIWS, which are automated 6-barrel 30mm Gatling guns. If these ships are air defense vessels, they're not doing much good by Snake Island. What am I missing?

albatross

6th May 2022, 19:20

Given how frequently - and readily - every military-related installation seems to spontaneously combust across Russia, one might wonder if they've angered their God?

Could these fires be caused by a Russian Resistance group formed as the enormity of the losses during the botched invasion became apparent? ….oops correction for “invasion” read “Military Operation” or whatever buzzword they are using at the moment for operation “Pig Lipstick”.

MPN11

6th May 2022, 19:51

What’s the flashpoint of Vodka, would be another question to ask this seemingly amateur Navy.

Clop_Clop

7th May 2022, 07:36

Relatives of the russian sailors on the Moskva are possibly hearing that the ship didn't take part in the special operation and that the sinking was an accident from their authorities...

NutLoose

7th May 2022, 09:32

Some debate going on re what was hit nr Snake island, there is allegedly a landing craft hit carrying a Tor system

https://twitter.com/CovertShores/status/1522861246634201089

watch the film here

https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1522862643538714624/video/1

NutLoose

7th May 2022, 10:08

K :)

You can see the jetty at the top on this view, the building they hit after the landing craft, also the previous attack still burning and also another jetty that looks like it has been destroyed

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x693/image_91eddc7ab62505e94281078a52698d4effbe3c2e.jpeg

rattman

8th May 2022, 07:26

Moskva might have been a junker, even according to russian navy report. But he absence is making a big difference on the control of the black sea. The russian are really missing her even degraded capabilities

Mil 8 to add to the kill counter
https://twitter.com/i/status/1523194512138514432

and another 2 raptors (p (https://twitter.com/i/status/1523194512138514432)ossibly)

Wokkafans

8th May 2022, 10:51

A useful comparison with Moskva perhaps?

https://twitter.com/WarshipPorn/status/1523249563632427009?s=20&t=KF3i2Rg-tan5y3bbosgByQ

SASless

8th May 2022, 12:01

Knowing how small Snake Island is....and how large an importance it has.....one would think the Russians would be checking to see who might be "looking" when they try a helicopter landing or beach assault of the island.

Logically, it would seem that observation of the island would involve the use of Drones/UAV's for tactical use and perhaps Space based for other uses.

Are the Russians unable to determine the presence of Drones and/or UAV's in the airspace overhead Snake Island?

The video of the Mi-8 being destroyed shows a real short reaction time.....as it shows Troops moving immediately adjacent to the Helicopter as it is being struck by a Missile of some kind.

RickNRoll

19th May 2022, 13:21

Why are so many drones identified as "TB2" when they are hovering. TB2 is not a copter.

ETOPS

19th May 2022, 17:36

Depends who is doing the identification- most journalists aren’t interested in the details and just want their story published. Hence “TB 2” becomes a cipher for UKR drone..

Sue Vêtements

19th May 2022, 20:52

Wait: TB2 is VTOL capable so technically it CAN hover

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/229x157/thunderbird2_878d068abdf0419fb6a4404857a6819f50f381c5.jpg

RickNRoll

20th May 2022, 03:49

Wait: TB2 is VTOL capable so technically it CAN hover

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/229x157/thunderbird2_878d068abdf0419fb6a4404857a6819f50f381c5.jpg
Well done.

wondering

27th May 2022, 13:43

When will the Danish Harpoons be in place?

Any chance Taiwan might donate some Hsiung Fen III missiles?

NutLoose

27th May 2022, 16:12

There are rumours they have been recovering the bodies off the moskva so and future diving expeditions by anyone will not find any.

https://twitter.com/article_58/status/1529475892929384448

https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1529555134845440000

etudiant

27th May 2022, 16:41

Surprised that the salvage boats were left undisturbed. Are they not legitimate military targets?

MPN11

27th May 2022, 17:12

Ukraine respects humanitarian efforts.
Russia doesn't give a damn about anyone or anything ... except Vlad and his crew.

NutLoose

27th May 2022, 17:48

Plus, why would you use your finite supply of weapons on targets that are not military, you might need them for a seaborne landing.

Lonewolf_50

27th May 2022, 17:51

Surprised that the salvage boats were left undisturbed. Are they not legitimate military targets? I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at how utterly out of touch this utterance is.
I'll cover three points:
1. Ukraine isn't in a race with the Russians to go diving for military advantage or intel on that wreck. Before the USSR broke up Ukranians manned those ships in the Black Sea fleet.
2. They have far more pressing priorities than shooting their limited supply of weapons out into the Black Sea: you are aware, I know since we have discussed this, of their difficulty in getting their grain to market.
3. The salvage operation is retrieving the dead. It poses no threat to Ukraine. Why waste precious resources on that when they have a close fight going on all over their own territory and adjacent to their coast.
And lastly, if they start shooting the salvage ships they hand Moscow a propaganda win.
Information/Propaganda/Spin/Misinformation ~ those are also weapons in war, not just bullets.
Welcome to the year 2022, but the same has been true since the Yellow Journalism in the Spanish American War, and even before that.

Ninthace

27th May 2022, 17:52

Surely the Moskva is now a war grave. Why try to interfere with vessels trying to recover the bodies of the fallen (and other stuff)?

NutLoose

27th May 2022, 19:43

Because Putin said all the crew got off, if later it’s found to be full of dead sailors he might have problems at home explaining it to the families and Press. If it does indeed have nukes onboard they may have been paranoid at the thought of Ukraine salvaging some.

punkalouver

27th May 2022, 22:57

Maybe they will secretly restore it and say that it was just out of service for a while - nothing unusual.

Zombywoof

27th May 2022, 23:03

It went to Davey Jones for maintenance to the faulty wiring.

Navaleye

29th May 2022, 10:40

Apparently the Ukrainian coast guard have found a lifebelt from the Moskva. What a fantastic souvenir

fdr

29th May 2022, 11:07

Apparently the Ukrainian coast guard have found a lifebelt from the Moskva. What a fantastic souvenir

Were there 504 sailors holding onto the one lifebelt?

NutLoose

29th May 2022, 13:25

Here it is.

https://twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1530476936631296000?cxt=HHwWgICxjciqrL0qAAAA

rigpiggy

4th Jun 2022, 01:34

More likely picking up the nuke warheads before the ukrainians become a nuclear power again

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry at how utterly out of touch this utterance is.
I'll cover three points:
1. Ukraine isn't in a race with the Russians to go diving for military advantage or intel on that wreck. Before the USSR broke up Ukranians manned those ships in the Black Sea fleet.
2. They have far more pressing priorities than shooting their limited supply of weapons out into the Black Sea: you are aware, I know since we have discussed this, of their difficulty in getting their grain to market.
3. The salvage operation is retrieving the dead. It poses no threat to Ukraine. Why waste precious resources on that when they have a close fight going on all over their own territory and adjacent to their coast.
And lastly, if they start shooting the salvage ships they hand Moscow a propaganda win.
Information/Propaganda/Spin/Misinformation ~ those are also weapons in war, not just bullets.
Welcome to the year 2022, but the same has been true since the Yellow Journalism in the Spanish American War, and even before that.
t like