Dogfight Practice

[Cariad2802]

Anyone in Brancaster (Norfolk) this morning, was teated to a wonderfully noisy display of dogfight practice!

[SASless]

Or was it poor formation flying on display?

[bobward]

F15's have been playing over Norwich off and on all day.
Great to see when the cloud allows!

[VictorGolf]

Practising for something?

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

Practising for something?
Most certainly.

Practicing for dog-fighting like they have done almost daily since the development of aircraft for air to air combat. Just part of normal training.

[Cat Techie]

1 vs 1 at about 1000 this morning, over the top of the flight path of NWI 27 end and seriously having a good bash at each other. Had the fortunate experience of handling them at Cott VASS many years ago so was watching them with the next door neighbour explaining what a beast they are. One did end up sitting on his tail with burners on and all energy to manoeuvre swiftly gone. Never seen that before. Enjoyable to see them as I will be moving soon and will not see any fast air where I am going.

[uxb99]

Have seen F15's over Thirsk and York dogfighting on several occasions.
A lot of the manoeuvres seem to be `who can stall out the other guy first`. Have seen several go high AOA to get the guy above and then seemingly run out of energy.
It's a bit sobering and thought provoking that they may be doing this for real at some point.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

It never fails to impress. Since LoO closed we have seen more fast and pointy activity playing overhead. Something reassuring feeling the windows rattle. :-)

[sycamore]

Actually they are practising for a big `Airshow` and flypast as uninvited guests on 9 May......

[BSD]

Out walking the dog near Blakeney, it was great to watch, loads of noise. Bit later on, a KC 135R drifted over, making stately progress southbound.

Gatecrashing the 9th of May? My, wouldn’t that be a spectacle.

[Asturias56]

Send a Cessna.........................

[Dunhovrin]

Send a Cessna.........................
Gosh, I'd forgotten all about that!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20609795

[Cornish Jack]

From the apparent sound source (we seldom have good enough vis to see them) the 'playpen' seems to be close overhead. I'm a little bemused at the perceived need for such tactics - much that is published suggests that visual contact has little, or no, place in modern fighter combat. Is all this 'multi shoot down sight unseen' capability just a myth ?

[flighthappens]

From the apparent sound source (we seldom have good enough vis to see them) the 'playpen' seems to be close overhead. I'm a little bemused at the perceived need for such tactics - much that is published suggests that visual contact has little, or no, place in modern fighter combat. Is all this 'multi shoot down sight unseen' capability just a myth ?

Infantry can call in fire support from aircraft, tanks, artillery. They carry anti-tank weapons, machine guns and rifles. At the end of the day, they likely still carry a bayonet or a knife, potentially both, and they train in un-armed combat.

[finestkind]

Infantry can call in fire support from aircraft, tanks, artillery. They carry anti-tank weapons, machine guns and rifles. At the end of the day, they likely still carry a bayonet or a knife, potentially both, and they train in un-armed combat.

"It's just a flesh wound". Sorry could not resist about the comment "unarmed combat" (no arms). In respect to dogfighting one does have to wonder that if you are in a situation for gun's than not only you but your opponent have either both stuffed up or things are critical for both. Logic would indicate that if the BVR fight was not successful than shoot and scoot to fight another day is the best option in most cases. The infantry do not have the best option to shoot and scoot, especially at high speed, so having a backup, unarmed combat, is probably not a bad idea.

[flighthappens]

"It's just a flesh wound". Sorry could not resist about the comment "unarmed combat" (no arms). In respect to dogfighting one does have to wonder that if you are in a situation for gun's than not only you but your opponent have either both stuffed up or things are critical for both. Logic would indicate that if the BVR fight was not successful than shoot and scoot to fight another day is the best option in most cases. The infantry do not have the best option to shoot and scoot, especially at high speed, so having a backup, unarmed combat, is probably not a bad idea.

The point being that it is probable (for a myriad of reasons) that at some point in an A2A shooting match that a WVR fight will occur.

It therefore makes some sense to prepare for it.

[SASless]

FJ Drivers are equipped with a Default Setting that deploys Fangs and a unleashes a driving desire to prove their mettle at aeronautical fencing when given the chance.....or they would not be so well known for their introspection and humility especially when mixed with alcohol and estrogen tainted phremones lingering in the presence of fleshly targets of opportunity.

However....if as others have suggested....were that done for keeps then with all of the high tech wizardry they have access to in their new steeds.....perhaps if an opponent finds a way to get inside their safe space....they best know how to do the Fandango.

Plus...it must be a hoot to do all that at the Taxpayers expense and see where the edges of the envelop lay....both for machine and Man (and the Sisters too of course)

As one who was taught the Spirit of the Bayonet.... done correctly there are no mere flesh wounds involved.

[etudiant]

"It's just a flesh wound". Logic would indicate that if the BVR fight was not successful than shoot and scoot to fight another day is the best option in most cases.

Not sure that it is that safe to leave a BVR fight, as the signature of a retreating aircraft is much larger than the frontal presentation\.
Presumably if the opponent has a longer range missile, aircraft scooting present an attractive target.

[finestkind]

FJ Drivers are equipped with a Default Setting that deploys Fangs and a unleashes a driving desire to prove their mettle at aeronautical fencing when given the chance.....or they would not be so well known for their introspection and humility especially when mixed with alcohol and estrogen tainted pheromones lingering in the presence of fleshly targets of opportunity.

However....if as others have suggested....were that done for keeps then with all of the high tech wizardry they have access to in their new steeds.....perhaps if an opponent finds a way to get inside their safe space....they best know how to do the Fandango.

Plus...it must be a hoot to do all that at the Taxpayers expense and see where the edges of the envelop lay....both for machine and Man (and the Sisters too of course)

As one who was taught the Spirit of the Bayonet.... done correctly there are no mere flesh wounds involved.

So well put SASless.

The justification of eyes on target and having the SA in a situation was very accurate many years ago. But with all the "high tech wizardry" it is hard to believe the mark 1 eyeball is still the best bet.

etudiant, point taken but to attempt to close on an opponent with missiles remaining due you being out would probably present as just if not more inviting target. And at some stage one has to disengage.

flighthappens. Absolutely and as been eloquently put, "best know how to Fandango". On that point we must be getting very close to the armament that will negate guns. Hopefully a bit more successful than the
60's were a number of fighters did not have guns in the mistaken belief of the missiles.

[622]

Not sure that it is that safe to leave a BVR fight, as the signature of a retreating aircraft is much larger than the frontal presentation\.
Presumably if the opponent has a longer range missile, aircraft scooting present an attractive target.

But always consider your teamates callsigns ....If you are in a four ship with 'Leggit', 'Scarper' and 'New Pants' ....then you might be on your own! :E

[57mm]

Remember the Blakeney CAP? Great sport having at anything of the Mil fixed wing variety.......

[Mogwi]

Remember the Blakeney CAP? Great sport having at anything of the Mil fixed wing variety.......

Great sport indeed - but rapidly becomes a source of instant immolation when it suddenly becomes for real. Hence the need for practice in peacetime. Oh, and don’t limit it to fixed wing 😈

Mog

[Wetstart Dryrun]

Rules of engagement may mandate a visual ident before shooting.

So up close, just to see.