Does Germany need the Bomb ?

[Tartiflette Fan]

This is the title of an article* in a major German news magazine - focus. The author asks what would the strategic position of Germany be if Trump were re-elected in 2025 and Le Pen next month ( strangely UK not mentioned at all ) thus making the nuclear umbrella somewhat uncertain, and Putin still in an expansionist mood. I would never have imagined I would read such an article. He adds that, in today's papers there is an open letter signed by 600 German "worthies" saying that it is wrong to spend 100 Mrd on re-equipping the German military ( and upping future spend to 2%).


* https://www.focus.de/politik/deutsch..._80628355.html (https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/die-focus-kolumne-von-jan-fleischhauer-brauchen-wir-die-bombe_id_80628355.html)

[jolihokistix]

A similar question is now being seriously debated in Japan.

[Tartiflette Fan]

If we add to this, the fact that Poland's deputy prime-minister said last week that they would be open to the stationing of nuclear war-heads on Polish soil, then that represents significant movement in a policy that has been "frozen" for a lot of years.

[fitliker]

Would the bomb protect German women from the invading hordes of Rapists presently making shopping at night a dangerous pastime for women in Germany ?
As Aristotle might say ask the right question if you want the right answer .

[ZeBedie]

Given Germany's past naughty behaviour, I'd say it may not be a good idea.

[NutLoose]

I would have said at the fall of the wall Ukraine didn’t need them, but now I feel a massive reduction and the retention of say a dozen or so would have prevented the genocide now taking place.

Does Germany need them? If NATO still holds weapons on their territory then probably not.

[HOVIS]

Would the bomb protect German women from the invading hordes of Rapists presently making shopping at night a dangerous pastime for women in Germany ?
As Aristotle might say ask the right question if you want the right answer .
Have the Russians made it to Germany already?

[Tartiflette Fan]

I would have said at the fall of the wall Ukraine didn’t need them, but now I feel a massive reduction and the retention of say a dozen or so would have prevented the genocide now taking place.

Does Germany need them? If NATO still holds weapons on their territory then probably not.

The article is based on the possibility of a re-elected Trump and his oft expressed . reluctance to risk American lives for Europeans who are "free-loaders" and whether he might actually withdraw from NATO.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The solution could be a European Bomb, rather than a German one. There can be no doubt Europe needs to emancipate and able to defend itself without help.

[His dudeness]

Given Germany's past naughty behaviour, I'd say it may not be a good idea.

My best guess is that you won´t be able to get a democratic vote for a 'German bomb' in Germany.

[Tartiflette Fan]

My best guess is that you won´t be able to get a democratic vote for a 'German bomb' in Germany.

I wouldn't like to say now, but that might change when everything about Russian behaviour in Ukraine is finally publicised.

As for Sam Ting Wong's comment, I can't imagine how you devise a system allowing for use with 27 members, many of which would then have to consult their parliaments as well.

[nomilk]

Would the bomb protect German women from the invading hordes of Rapists presently making shopping at night a dangerous pastime for women in Germany ?
And now, tell us where German women go shopping at night? There are a handful of 24 h supermarkets in Berlin and Bavaria turns off the lights at 8 pm. So where is it so dangerous?

[Alpine Flyer]

Nuclear proliferation (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwix6-qk4Yf3AhWeS_EDHdZ2BD0QyCl6BAgREAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DoRLON3ddZIw&usg=AOvVaw3K94H5-KEFfM1b9GTjC068)is not going to make the world a better or even safer place....

[Saintsman]

The solution could be a European Bomb, rather than a German one. There can be no doubt Europe needs to emancipate and able to defend itself without help.

If it was an EU bomb, you would need agreement of all 27 members to use it. By the time they all agreed, it would be too late.

Mind you, there would be no first strike...

[Tartiflette Fan]

Alpine Flyer - Are you saying that Ukraine would still have been invaded if it had kept its nukes ?

[mickjoebill]

Alpine Flyer - Are you saying that Ukraine would still have been invaded if it had kept its nukes ?

A pertinent question.

Here is another, if Ukraine had a non nuclear, precision guided weapon, capable of assassinating the Russian head of State with little collateral damage, would they use it?

Mjb

[ersa]

Have the Russians made it to Germany already?

Didn't realise Russians were running away leaving there women and kids behind, and lying about there age ?

[Asturias56]

"Alpine Flyer - Are you saying that Ukraine would still have been invaded if it had kept its nukes ?"

As with Libya & Iraq - anyone who has a nuclear weapon won't give it up now and people who almost have one (Iran) will redouble their efforts to get one

Who can blame them?

[Less Hair]

For Japan and South Korea they might make sense as a counter threat. There is no time to get them when things turn sour. Limiting nukes has only limited the good guys from getting them. The evil guys still armed up.

[His dudeness]

Mind you, there would be no first strike...

Which after all, would be the most reasonable position. But then....

Anyhuw, the issue at hand developd slowly, and it showcases how bad we all are perceiving slow moving threads. First Ossetia, then the Crimea, now Ukrain and probably Moldova and or the baltics next. Yet Mr.Putin is still seen by some as a peaceful man or that there is a LEGITIMATE Russian claim in any of this.

[teeteringhead]

the baltics next But the Baltic States are NATO members, so Article 5 will/would/should apply???

[His dudeness]

So what.

Thinks old Wladimir Wladimirowitsch. "The West" is - for the time being - NOT a coalition NATO or no NATO. The Brits don´t see themselves as Europeans, the Americans don´t do that either and the rest ? Whos got an Amry left that could resist a full scale invasion ? The Kaliningrad enclave makes for a good second front....

And lets not forget the most important thing in this: there is no Churchill, there is no Roosevelt, there is no politician in the West who is willing and able to take a real leader role and face Putin as he needs to be faced. Most folks live in a lalaland these days. Dancing your first name in protest won´t protect against an army...

I hope my view is to gloomy, but even if the money is dedicated for rearmament, the boots need to be filled. In Germany: good luck with that.

[Finningley Boy]

Have the Russians made it to Germany already?
As far back as January 1945, didn't hear?

FB

[Finningley Boy]

But the Baltic States are NATO members, so Article 5 will/would/should apply???
It would be very interesting, and very worrying, if Putin did invade one of the Baltic States? I imagine any response would be (is now) most carefully thought through as to how to justify the point of NATO. The only Sword of Damoclese being the nuclear strike capability in Putin's hands.

FB

[fitliker]

And now, tell us where German women go shopping at night? There are a handful of 24 h supermarkets in Berlin and Bavaria turns off the lights at 8 pm. So where is it so dangerous?
Google the Cologne Christmas Market rapes . Mass rapes in the open in a public square . How safe would you feel at a bus stop at night ?
There are lots of stories in the DW German media, and even some sexual assault stories reported by the BBC Jimmy Saville’s old employer . Usually auntie been has been historically deaf dumb and blind to Sexual crimes unless they involve insulting persons who cursed with confusion about standing or sitting to pee .
I will not post the links given by google as it would take up too much moderators time , but you can read some of the horrific crimes not seen since the Red Army’s denazification in WW2 by using any search engine in seconds .

[Courtney Mil]

No one here has mentioned Germany’s agreement with the US regarding nuclear weapons. Although unusual, it is still carefully maintained as demonstrated by their intention to buy nuclear capable aircraft.

[Tartiflette Fan]

No one here has mentioned Germany’s agreement with the US regarding nuclear weapons. Although unusual, it is still carefully maintained as demonstrated by their intention to buy nuclear capable aircraft.

This is very recent, although it does pre-date Ukraine and was - I believe - part of the recent electoral campaign / coalition agreement ( may be open to contradiction there )

[Rockie_Rapier]

This is very recent, although it does pre-date Ukraine and was - I believe - part of the recent electoral campaign / coalition agreement ( may be open to contradiction there )
As far as I know the Luftwaffe still has nuclear capable Tornadoes, and has been part of the nuke sharing scheme continuously since the days of the F104.
Presumably when the Tornadoes go it will need to look at equiping the Typhoon's or buying those F35s?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Presumably when the Tornadoes go it will need to look at equiping the Typhoon's or buying those F35s?

f
From discussions on here; the Tornados will soon lose currency - or whatever the correct term is.

[ve3id]

If we add to this, the fact that Poland's deputy prime-minister said last week that they would be open to the stationing of nuclear war-heads on Polish soil, then that represents significant movement in a policy that has been "frozen" for a lot of years.

In his book 'Sacred Dogs' back in 1990, Stanislaw Tyminski proposed that Poland should have the bomb. And then 17% of the Polish people voted for him to be the next president, only slightly behind Tadeus Mazowiecki at 19%. He forced a runoff in which Lech Walesa finally won.

[Tartiflette Fan]

In his book 'Sacred Dogs' back in 1990, Stanislaw Tyminski proposed that Poland should have the bomb.

Have the bomb how ,

[Rwy in Sight]

The article is based on the possibility of a re-elected Trump and his oft expressed . reluctance to risk American lives for Europeans who are "free-loaders" and whether he might actually withdraw from NATO.

I may be mistaken but the then POTUS Trump did ask for a 2% of GDP defence spending from the European NATO countries so if Germany spends that, it should be covered by the US defence effort.

[Tartiflette Fan]

I may be mistaken but the then POTUS Trump did ask for a 2% of GDP defence spending from the European NATO countries so if Germany spends that, it should be covered by the US defence effort.


His ravings were so general that one could never know. Naturally no administration would ever claim to be limited by his nonsense.

[Lonewolf_50]

Does Germany need the bomb?
Probably not. Germany does need nuclear power for electricity, but for their own reasons they have turned their backs on it.

If you want the bomb, ask yourself first: how badly do I want to be a target?
If you've got it, you are on a lot of people's target list, and for good reason.
It's that simple.
I wish someone would get this point across to our friends in Iran.

[Less Hair]

The 2 % GDP defence spending goal was agreed to by Germany and other NATO members before at the Wales and Prague summits as their long term common goal until the year 2024.Two percent is what all new NATO members are asked to contribute. Later on existing members agreed to follow this GDP share goal. However President Trump suddenly asked for 2% immediately, something nobody had promised.

[Sam Ting Wong]

If the cold war is to be repeated then probably the type of military conflicts of that time will come back as well. Proxy wars outside of NATO or Russian soil, so the bomb will not be the crucial issue. It will be the willingness of the West to engage in third countries which will define the Putin era.

[Asturias56]

"If you want the bomb, ask yourself first: how badly do I want to be a target?"

You might ask

" How badly do I want to be invaded by a large country who already has Nuclear weapons" - The Russians invaded Iran in WW2 and they sure think the US might do the same now. And they have their constant fight with Israel as well (who also have a bomb). Iran sees themselves as surrounded (more or less) by Nuclear capable powers - Russia, China, Pakistan, the US offshore and Israel nearby

[Clop_Clop]

Yeah not an easy one, but for some states it makes sense to have them as the cost of war for an aggressor increases so much worst case they wont attack and that keeps the peace. As NATO country they should be protected under some circumstances as well... But of course looking only at Germany alone against Russia it seems to make sense to get them but that is not the case at the moment... Potential arms races and MAD type peaces at the far end after spending huge amounts of money and effort getting there...

[Buster15]

f
From discussions on here; the Tornados will soon lose currency - or whatever the correct term is.

Don't understand what that is supposed to mean.
The German MoD has spent a considerable sum of money remanufacturing certain parts to maintain their nuclear Tornado capabilities up to 2030.

[Less Hair]

And after that timeframe they will have nuclear capable F-35 to carry NATO's US nukes.

[Tartiflette Fan]

The 2 % GDP defence spending goal was agreed to by Germany and other NATO members before at the Wales and Prague summits as their long term common goal until the year 2024.Two percent is what all new NATO members are asked to contribute. Later on existing members agreed to follow this GDP share goal. However President Trump suddenly asked for 2% immediately, something nobody had promised.


For a lot of years Germany was spending 1.2% - 1.3% and there is no way they would have met this target of 2% by 2024. ?I think I remember Merkel pushing it back.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/DEU/germany/military-spending-defense-budget

[Tartiflette Fan]

Don't understand what that is supposed to mean.
The German MoD has spent a considerable sum of money remanufacturing certain parts to maintain their nuclear Tornado capabilities up to 2030.

The bombs are being modified and so the aircraft will have to be modified and "accepted " by the US as a suitable carrier, and in discussion in this forum months ago, they weren't going to do it.

[Tartiflette Fan]

And after that timeframe they will have nuclear capable F-35 to carry NATO's US nukes.

And that decision is about four weeks old.

[Less Hair]

Otherwise they would have ordered Super Hornets and Growlers to do the same job in the future. They just changed their selection to F-35s. It's not like Germany considered to leave NATO's "Nukleare Teilhabe", carrying and dropping US nukes in times of war like many other NATO members would do as well.

[Tartiflette Fan]

Otherwise they would have ordered Super Hornets and Growlers to do the same job in the future. They just changed their selection to F-35s. It's not like Germany considered to leave NATO's "Nukleare Teilhabe", carrying and dropping US nukes in times of war like many other NATO members would do as well.

Unsure what you mean by that. It was debated in the recent election campaign.

[Less Hair]

Obviously the Greens and SPD support it. CDU and FDP as well.
Who do you mean?

[Tartiflette Fan]

Obviously the Greens and SPD support it. CDU and FDP as well.
Who do you mean?

Now the official agreed party line is that but during the campaign there were some MdB -SPD, Greens and Die Linke - who were proposing NATO withdrawal . The following article states that the new coalition angered NATO partners in Dec 2021 when a sentence in the coalition agreement became public which said that they wanted to join " as an observer, not a member , the Treaty on the Prohibition of Nuclear Weapons to constructively approach the intention of the treaty "

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/ausland/atomwaffenverbotsvertrag-nato-aergert-sich-ueber-ampel-koalition-17661467.html

[Just This Once...]

Would the bomb protect German women from the invading hordes of Rapists presently making shopping at night a dangerous pastime for women in Germany ?.

It was back in 2015, so not 'presently' or even across Germany either.

...you can read some of the horrific crimes not seen since the Red Army’s denazification in WW2 by using any search engine in seconds .

Are they the Nazis that Stalin became allies with to help start WW2?

Do these account holders get a list of inflammatory things to say or post, or are they allowed to make up their own drivel as long as it aims to make the 'West' look bad?

[Clop_Clop]

Do these account holders get a list of inflammatory things to say or post, or are they allowed to make up their own drivel as long as it aims to make the 'West' look bad?

Yeah the list of topics are not that long which makes it bit more annoying as each time it's a repetition of the same message but in a different form only... Common ones are of course, rapes, mainstream liberal west leftist media and of course Soros.

[Whenurhappy]

The events of the weeks and months ahead in CEE will determine what NATO - as a collective - does and whether the US continues to have a leading role in NATO and whether Putin-songging Trump is re-elected.

"Events, dear boy, events"

[Wensleydale]

Its all been debated before.......

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j20voPS0gI

[Buster15]

The bombs are being modified and so the aircraft will have to be modified and "accepted " by the US as a suitable carrier, and in discussion in this forum months ago, they weren't going to do it.

Understood. Thank you for this.