View Full Version : Helicopter missing - Mt Disappointment VIC (AU)
Tickle
31st Mar 2022, 01:22
Hoping for a good outcome. Anyone know any more?
Victoria Police are investigating reports of two missing helicopters around Mount Disappointment.
It’s understood the aircraft were travelling in a convoy from Melbourne’s CBD. One helicopter disappeared just after 9.30am, with the second helicopter also yet to be located.
According the 9News, “several people” were on board the two helicopters and Ambulance Victoria and Victorian Police are currently searching the area.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is also aware of the incident.
Police helicopters have been spotted in the area. Picture: 9News.Located around 80km from the city’s CBD, Mount Disappointment is located near the south end of the Great Dividing Range.
https://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/urgent-search-for-missing-helicopter-in-mount-disappointment/news-story/d278ba1be845869fff7bff3dd78a5d48
Monks
31st Mar 2022, 02:45
I think this is after the accident called as your can see the SAR and Police helicopters heading this way (unless it was an aircraft as part of this existing package in the area). If you go back to 2055 UTC on FR24 you can see a HC130 l (that departed cbd) pass over the area perform some manoeuvres head out then back before landing at Mangalore
Homesick-Angel
31st Mar 2022, 02:59
I could be wrong, but theres only one operator in Melbourne that i can think of that operates the missing type. Bloody awful..
joe_bloggs
31st Mar 2022, 09:16
Update. More details.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-31/helicopter-crash-mount-disappointment-north-of-melbourne/100954600
Seems a bit similar to an incident out of Sydney to Bathurst a few years back.
more info. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-04-01/mt-disappointment-helicopter-crash-victims-named/100958098
Nescafe
31st Mar 2022, 10:10
Update. Names released.
Not in that article they aren’t.
I spy
31st Mar 2022, 12:21
Update. More details.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-31/helicopter-crash-mount-disappointment-north-of-melbourne/100954600
Weather? RIP
belly tank
1st Apr 2022, 12:41
https://amp.9news.com.au/article/8d429d00-39eb-41be-a015-333f56fff89f
Photo of the young pilot, my question is, is this how a seat belt is worn in the EC130?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x810/a3f6445f86c3e6737ed485a72e2c3f64b9f1b14b_263deccc2ad1135d0b9 ccb11b191a4a5b9ebc618.jpg
212man
2nd Apr 2022, 00:31
Photo of the young pilot, my question is, is this how a seat belt is worn in the EC130?
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/810x810/a3f6445f86c3e6737ed485a72e2c3f64b9f1b14b_263deccc2ad1135d0b9 ccb11b191a4a5b9ebc618.jpg
it’s not how it should be worn in any aircraft. Mind you, in the last week I’ve seen proudly shown video on FB of someone doing B205 training, and neither pilot are wearing shoulder straps at all.
That machine is no 130 - old 350 B,BA or B2.
The seat belt fits the vintage of the aircraft and is a 4 point harness although in the pic the thing is way out of adjustment for correct fit. Lap Straps should be tighter to bring the buckle lower.
Must be a pretty old machine as that style harness was even used in the SA 315 B Lama.
212, I've had reason to comment previously here how this is not how a harness is worn, as it shows up on many videos posted, of instructors also. Basic education missing I think, if worn in such a manner you might as well not wear it at all.someone doing B205 training, and neither pilot are wearing shoulder straps at allWhen the Huey first came out accident investigators found the pilot/s at times still strapped in their seats, but located some distance in front of the airframe, having been ejected trough the windscreen in what should have been a survivable accident. Belts at the time were attached at the seat and the seat was letting go from the runners, probably aided by airframe distortion, lap belts were then secured to the airframe, shoulder harness remained attached to the rear and bottom of the seat (inertia reel). Problem solved.
Loved the crotch strap on the 76, there was no way you were going to submarine out of that, and it kept the buckle low on your hips where it should be.
Thanks RVDT, I know absolutely nothing of French machinery.
Nigel Osborn
2nd Apr 2022, 04:38
In the mid 60s the only helicopter I flew with a shoulder harness was the FH 1100, the Bell 47 & 206 just had a lap belt. After a fatal accident, CASA made all helicopters have a 4 point harness, even the Bell 47. The S76 came out with a 5 point harness. In all cases the lap belt should be tight low down on the lap, then the shoulder harness clicked in. In the photo that harness would not be too helpful.
Changing subject, I'm very surprised there is no mention of radio calls made by either pilot. If the first one had a mechanical problem or in cloud unexpectedly, you would have expected a radio call. I don't know how far away the second pilot was, the report seems to suggest he was following, in which case you would expect him to see or hear or say something to the other pilot. Then the second one returned which suggests conditions weren't the best. The final result was a tragedy for the 5 on board but also I expect traumatic for those following.
I hope they come up quickly with the cause to make sure it's not repeated.
heliduck
2nd Apr 2022, 06:52
That machine is no 130 - old 350 B,BA or B2.
The seat belt fits the vintage of the aircraft and is a 4 point harness although in the pic the thing is way out of adjustment for correct fit. Lap Straps should be tighter to bring the buckle lower.
Must be a pretty old machine as that style harness was even used in the SA 315 B Lama.
I’m currently flying a 1990 SD2 with the same buckle.
the Bell 47 & 206 just had a lap beltCivvies cost cutting Nigel, the military version of the 47 (TH-13M) I learnt to fly in 1967 had the full rig. ;)
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x665/0000017678_d31782e5f0f14c66a611d976dc1528287a1b674b.jpg
I think privately we know the accident cause, will be repeated again ad nauseam unfortunately.
KiwiNedNZ
2nd Apr 2022, 07:44
The helo in the photo above is when he was flying for SeaWorld aviation on the Gold Coast, think they have either BA or B2s there.
I’m currently flying a 1990 SD2 with the same buckle.
So that would be 32 year old machine? Where has the time gone?
I have flown in that area a bit. Check the recent media photo's of the height of the trees and they may as well be made of steel.
Eucalyptus Regnans aka "Mountain Ash" record height is 86 metres. ~ 280' for Americans.
Rappeling fire crews from an old twoey was fun. Yeah I know it had 2 engines but...................
Nigel Osborn
2nd Apr 2022, 08:10
Hi Megan,
Full harness came in 1969 if my memory is working!
I think privately we know the accident cause, will be repeated again ad nauseam unfortunately. Agreed sadly.
catseye
2nd Apr 2022, 10:05
Agreed sadly.
unfortunately have to agree. wish it was something else. too many of these.
unfortunately have to agree. wish it was something else. too many of these.
Mountain wave?
Squawk7700
3rd Apr 2022, 10:58
Flightpath of EC130
Kulwin Park
3rd Apr 2022, 12:20
That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?
Doors Off
3rd Apr 2022, 13:59
That Flightpath data exert indicates XWD got down as low as 2,592' then down to 2,411' whilst the other aircraft WVV stayed around the 3,900' mark.
May be there was a aircraft problem.
Does anyone know what height the mount is?
Captain Google says 2,600’
Has all the hallmarks of scud running and getting it wrong - the other aircraft is 1000' higher and gets through...........nothing much more to say.
the coyote
3rd Apr 2022, 22:20
Departing the city for Ulupna (as reported), if cloud base was an issue then it is a mystery to me why they chose to go via the hills rather than the Kilmore Gap, only a few miles to the west and pretty much on track. RIP.
.When the Huey first came out accident investigators found the pilot/s at times still strapped in their seats, but located some distance in front of the airframe, having been ejected trough the windscreen in what should have been a survivable accident. Belts at the time were attached at the seat and the seat was letting go from the runners, probably aided by airframe distortion, lap belts were then secured to the airframe, shoulder harness remained attached to the rear and bottom of the seat (inertia reel). Problem solved.
Even to this day we would not wear our shoulder harnesses in the 212/205/Huey as we are mostly doing external load and with the shoulder straps on you cannot lean all the way out in the bubble window. About 5 years ago we bought the "tilt" seat and now we are able to wear them. Some of the "old School" pilots still refuse however.
Nigel Osborn
4th Apr 2022, 00:53
Were either pilot instrument rated & were the helicopters IF equipped? Was the second pilot flying on top or in IMC & flew himself out safely?
Squawk7700
4th Apr 2022, 01:36
The descent rate in the final 20 seconds of flight appears to be in excess of 4,000fpm if the surveillance data is accurate.
Nigel Osborn
4th Apr 2022, 03:02
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fallIt's only 45 MPH Nigel, 5280 fpm is 60 MPH. A brick would be far higher than 120 MPH, which is what a skydiver in belly to earth falls at, on average, they use weights and tight/loose clothing to adjust free fall speeds relative to one another, Grand Slam and Tall Boy bombs of WWII impacted at some 750 MPH, only power required was an aircraft to drop them from.
Squawk7700
4th Apr 2022, 06:24
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.
Flying Bull
4th Apr 2022, 08:22
4000 fpm is basically impossible in free fall, an object would need to be powered to fall that fast. A dropped brick falls at only about 120 mph. I hope my maths hasn't gone too astray!
4.000 fpm decent is easy possible - had it on the VSI more than once - but deliberate ;-)
John Eacott
4th Apr 2022, 08:55
Some passenger jets climb at in excess of 3,000fpm.
Without going too far OT, the BK117 managed 4,000fpm RoC back in the last century, passenger jets way more than that. RoD for most helicopters would be >2,000fpm in an auto although some come down like the proverbial brick: the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' auto. 360* autos in a Squirrel can reach the 3,000fpm RoD, too, within the error of FR24 readouts.
Back On topic, the Kilmore Gap sort of made it easier to get through the low cloud around Disappointment and the Macedon Ranges, is it still local knowledge or has the Magenta Line overruled such options? I haven't seen any mention of a mechanical failure, but it can't be discounted until the initial report comes out.
Unless the debris field is well spread , which might indicate an in-flight break up of some sort, there probably won't be enough left to reach much of a conclusion about mechanical failure.
the Wasp/Scout was 3,500-4,000fpm in a 'normal' autoWas always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site. :p
HissingSyd
5th Apr 2022, 13:06
Was always too scared to look John, besides, was too busy scanning the potential crash site. :p
Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?
John Eacott
5th Apr 2022, 22:32
Didn't the ROC max out at 2000 fpm?
C'mon, don't spoil the dit :p
Ascend Charlie
6th Apr 2022, 01:01
One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.
However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.
belly tank
6th Apr 2022, 04:22
One story is that the ROC is limited to 2000fpm because if the engine quit, the aircraft would keep going up for a while and by the time the ROD was sufficient to turn the blades in autorotation, the RRPM was too low for it to work.
However, that might be a load of horsefeathers.
If I remember rightly, the 407 has a 2000 FPM ROC limit for that reason.
The original "tale", of which it isn't, was from the Bell 214B for the reasons here and the resultant "ballistic" trajectory.
6000 FPM at SL wasn't/isn't difficult light but you could also cave in the greenhouse windows above your head. Not rated for 60 knots vertical and above. Even an old 205 will surprise some when light and you can bust the windows in one as well.
Apparently a 214 back in the day established a couple of records and sustained ~2000 FPM to 30,000' and ~5200 FPM to 10,000'. So the rate numbers at sea level would have been higher.
HissingSyd
6th Apr 2022, 13:08
C'mon, don't spoil the dit :p
I was too succinct. You got it, but the following posts suggest I was misunderstood.
The ROC, or vertical speed, indicator only shows +-2000 fpm. In an auto in a Wasp you had no idea how fast you were descending. ;-)
In an auto in a Wasp you had no idea how fast you were descending. ;-) I believe the answer was always - VERY!
Squawk7700
12th May 2022, 02:08
Preliminary report released.
Investigation: AO-2022-016 - Collision with terrain involving Airbus Helicopters EC130 T2, VH-XWD near Mount Disappointment, Victoria, on 31 March 2022 (atsb.gov.au) (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-016/)
OMG. the first heli flew into the cloud first and did a U-turn and the second one followed.
The passenger in the front right seat had flown in helicopters for about 30 years. The passenger recalled that, as they crossed Mount Disappointment, heavy cloud rolled in resulting in ‘a white-out with ground visibility no longer evident’. The pilot radioed XWD and said words to the effect of ‘U‑turn, U-turn, U-turn’. Then the pilot of WVV immediately completed a U‑turn. The pilot of XWD radioed back with words to the effect ‘aren’t we going to cut through?’ The passenger then saw XWD pass just below them
VFR pilot ignores VFR rules, enters cloud and crashes - nothing new there unfortunately...........5 lives lost for the sake of a 180 turn........
212man
12th May 2022, 08:22
Website might need a refresh.....
Squawk7700
12th May 2022, 09:10
Website might need a refresh.....
Which website?
212man
12th May 2022, 09:23
Which website?
The operator
Squawk7700
12th May 2022, 12:10
The operator
https://microflite.com.au/content/themes/microflite/dist/assets/images/check-circle-26.pngDAY AND NIGHTOur highly-trained pilots have the skills and certifications to fly in all conditions, and at any time of day.
This?
…..
212man
12th May 2022, 14:52
This?
…..
plus the references to enviable safety history and accident free record.....
rotorspeed
12th May 2022, 18:40
Perfectly put Crab. And it would seem, not for the first time:
'The pilot of XWD radioed back with words to the effect ‘aren’t we going to cut through?’
EMS R22
12th May 2022, 19:26
Got to love this industry…. Everyone quick to put the knife in.
My thoughts are with the friends and family’s.
Let’s all learn from this.
Got to love this industry…. Everyone quick to put the knife in.
My thoughts are with the friends and family’s.
Let’s all learn from this. I don't think there is a poster here whose thoughts aren't with the families - no-one seems to learn from this, that is why we are frustrated.
It's not a knife, it is a frigging big neon sign that says ' Don't scud run - turn around or land'
Squawk7700
12th May 2022, 21:36
“Walls of cloud” don’t generally just “roll in” based on my 20 years of VFR flying… you fly into them as they remain mostly stationary.
Weather deterioration around high ground - how unexpected............
Squawk7700
11th Jan 2024, 19:53
The final report has been released:
VFR into IMC, loss of control and collision with terrain involving Airbus Helicopters EC130 T2, VH-XWD, near Mount Disappointment, Victoria, on 31 March 2022 | ATSB (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2022/aair/ao-2022-016)
https://australianaviation.com.au/2024/01/white-out-heavy-cloud-caused-fatal-2022-ec130-crash-says-atsb/?utm_source=AustralianAviation&utm_campaign=12_01_2024&utm_medium=email&utm_content=1&utm_emailID=8a19deb6ae92784b55bd697a26a18b71a30816fa7947b1fc 0bdb8e5f458c47bf
ShyTorque
12th Jan 2024, 09:38
Sadly, it really does appear that this was a case of “same old, same old”. The cliche about old, bold pilots definitely applies here. Two pilots, two aircraft, same way, same time, same conditions. Two opinions of whether to turn back or not. It’s a fine line.
Having been in the situation of commercial pressure to fly or not and whether to continue a flight once airborne many times, I’m beginning to realise how glad I am to be retired and away from it all.
However, I must say that I’m very, very surprised that the standby horizon wasn’t even switched on! That indicates a certain mindset about the flight.
Also, a pilot with a few thousand hours but no IFR training at all? I recall flying under the IMC training hood very early on in my basic helicopter training, in an unstabilised Whirlwind 10. IR training long after first solo unless I’m very much mistaken and certainly with a lot less than 100 hours total. Might have even been before night flying…maybe Teetering Head can confirm? Before that we were required to gain a basic “white rating” IR in fixed wing.
Never really understood the term "Inadvertent IMC" Day VFR. It's fairly apparent looking out the window?
Maybe it should be "inadvertent lack of training / understanding"?
Measures taken -
drafted a dedicated risk assessment addressing visual flight rules into IMC
upgrading their fleet of EC130 and AS350 helicopters with the Garmin G500H primary flight display and multifunction display incorporating synthetic vision and a terrain alerting functionality
modifying their AS350 helicopters with the Garmin GFC 600H helicopter flight control system (approved data for the EC130 was not available at the time of the investigation)
acquired ICARUS (instrument conditions awareness recognition and understanding system) instrument flying training hoods
introduced basic instrument flying training and inadvertent IMC recovery training
updated their operator proficiency check syllabus to include knowledge and practical skills checks for avoiding and recovering from inadvertent IMC
added the Helicopter Association International online academy ‘56 Seconds to Live’ inadvertent IMC avoidance course to their pilot training program
introduced a pre-flight risk assessment tool
introduced a company ‘Task rejection’ policy statement into their operations manual
obtained an Airbus Helicopter Training Centre approval.
All that might do is make pilots "think" they can now randomly operate IMC?
Somehow I think the priorities are a little backwards.
Never really understood how the old NGT VFR rules were workable in Australia and look how that turned out.