Flybe-V2

[JobsaGoodun]

That’s the old page, the new one is Let’s flybe

[SWBKCB]

They aren't back without paying debts. It's a new airline with the same name. The name was bought from the administrators EY to ironically pay some of the debts of Flybe v1 - which is now called:

FBE Realisations Ltd.

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02769768

I'm well aware of the legal games being played.

[BA318]

"There's more" lol you've managed to find only a select few, most of those are probably the same people that would moan if the flight was 2 minutes late or because they've got a grudge with the airline anyway. You've also failed to acknowledge that the majority of tweets are asking them when they are going to reopen routes to Exeter, Newquay etc or welcoming them back.

I honestly don't know what your agenda is but you clearly have a grudge with Flybe and anyone who wants them to succeed. I'm all for having an alternative view point but when it's starts getting pathetic and just looking to bring up any old piece of dirty to further your own agenda that's when I get pissed.

Read through previous posts. I’ve no agenda. I want Flybe to succeed. I just think this route is not going to work. There are a few niches and that’s what I suggested. BMI operating LHR-Leeds and Amsterdam couldn’t survive even with Lufthansa’s support, Star Alliance membership and a connecting network - realistically how does anyone think this attempt is going to do anything other than burn money?

Plenty of people will be happy. If I was a regular flyer on that route I’d be happy as cheap fares will be available while it lasts. Same if I was based in Belfast.

However more than half their new routes are up against serious competition- IAG, KLM, Easyjet. All have deep pockets to fight competition. And what is the USP of Flybe on those routes? Why would I chose them over the others? Nobody has explained that and I’m not sure demand is at the level that people have no choice but to just book what’s available.

You can want an airline to succeed but disagree with their strategy. I’m an SAS gold card holder and love the carrier but think they are now a basket case and will use Ryanair as there is no difference. I also want Flybe to succeed for the sake of regional airports. We risk losing some if they don’t do better but that only works with a strong Flybe.

[Buster the Bear]

Loganair will be using ATR into LHR from the Isle of Man which is even slower.

Codeshare tie ups are not money makers, Flybe would typicall pick up around £25-£30 per codeshare ticket and flybe would be left with the lost luggage liability at the other end in LBA or Ams
KLM often used Embraer into LHR and BA A319 suggesting the Pax numbers aren't just there these days

Rate of climb/speed on departure is more of an issue.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's not as if KLM lack traffic at all, they still use Embraers to slot sit, they have a large and valuable LHR slot portfolio. They used to have a F70 and a B737 depart within 10 mins of each other at T4. Not interested in using larger aircraft, they hold the frequency high and the gauge low. The Loganair ATR also comes with an IOM govt subsidy attached, so apples and pears comparison vs. Flybe2. With KLM feeding long haul at one end and BA the other, there's no USP for flybe to be at LHR at all. No BA Exec Club, no feed at either end, using a Q400 from a remote stand? Just WHYYYYY?

[cavokblues]

I guess their USP offering will be low fares? I, personally, don't see how they will appeal to business folk etc and the other folk who are the the ones prepared to pay the extra costs to drive yields as they're not really offering the frequency required. A quick search on google flights over the summer and Flybe are very, very competitive price wise, even against easyJet out of LGW and LTN.

[tictack67]

It's not as if KLM lack traffic at all, they still use Embraers to slot sit, they have a large and valuable LHR slot portfolio. They used to have a F70 and a B737 depart within 10 mins of each other at T4. Not interested in using larger aircraft, they hold the frequency high and the gauge low. The Loganair ATR also comes with an IOM govt subsidy attached, so apples and pears comparison vs. Flybe2. With KLM feeding long haul at one end and BA the other, there's no USP for flybe to be at LHR at all. No BA Exec Club, no feed at either end, using a Q400 from a remote stand? Just WHYYYYY?QUOTE
I was quoting Loganair and Luxair as a previous poster said Q400 never flew to LHR, and that there were no turboprops planned.

[BA318]

I guess their USP offering will be low fares? I, personally, don't see how they will appeal to business folk etc and the other folk who are the the ones prepared to pay the extra costs to drive yields as they're not really offering the frequency required. A quick search on google flights over the summer and Flybe are very, very competitive price wise, even against easyJet out of LGW and LTN.

The problem is, especially on the LHR routes, Flybe’s costs will be high - using a Q400 there’s fewer seats to share the cost and low fares + high costs = :(

[dantheflyboy]

I have booked Flybe to LHR on price and to support them against the IAG high cost fares. I have been willing to pay a premium for a better product in the past but this has unfortunately come to an end due appalling back office customer service, loss of money with third party products attached to my booking. I now have a travel voucher which is of limited use to me. I was unable to get them on the phone, email or even self manage through the website because the booking wasn't flight only. I can only hope flybe2 is better with their customer service, meanwhile I am happy to take the perceived risk and the savings offered.

[BA318]

I have booked Flybe to LHR on price and to support them against the IAG high cost fares. I have been willing to pay a premium for a better product in the past but this has unfortunately come to an end due appalling back office customer service, loss of money with third party products attached to my booking. I now have a travel voucher which is of limited use to me. I was unable to get them on the phone, email or even self manage through the website because the booking wasn't flight only. I can only hope flybe2 is better with their customer service, meanwhile I am happy to take the perceived risk and the savings offered.

The terrible state of BA service is probably the best thing going for Flybe on the LHR routes but then why not go for LCY and avoid the whole LHR mess. Supposedly their LCY-BFS and EDI services were doing well at the end (so much so they were leasing E190s due to the demand). There’s also a much better focus on p2p rather than connections which is more helpful when you have no connecting network or partners.

[ATNotts]

The problem is, especially on the LHR routes, Flybe’s costs will be high - using a Q400 there’s fewer seats to share the cost and low fares + high costs = :(

I agree completely, most of the routes into LHR appear on the face of it to be, to put it mildly, mistakes. Is it conceivable that they are being paid to operate them as some kind of slot sitting exercise for BA perhaps? I confess I'm not au fait with the politics and regulations regarding slot usage (or lack thereof) but it would appear to be the only logical reason for operating ex BHD and AMS to LHR.

[RogueOne]

Thanks to the Mod team for this new fresh thread to try and separate an old airline from this new company. (despite the views of some).

If you disliked the old company you’re probably best to post in the Flybe V1 thread. If you didn’t like their bag policies you’re probably best to post in the Flybe V1 thread. If they owe you money you’re probably best to post in the Flybe V1 thread or if you just don’t like someone other than the airline you work for guess what…. you’re probably best to post in the Flybe V1 thread!

Looking forward to reasoned discussion about this new aviation job generator. Well done to all.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Actually 318, Flybe’s cost base is staggeringly low compared to what you might think it is. Or if you want to compare it to another Q400 operator of the past.
As a new market entrant they’re very likely to have been able to negotiate very low lease costs, deals on ground handling, there are no legacy costs on the balance sheet. I know many companies have been falling over themselves to tender for work with them, to get in on the ground floor, well poised for expansion.
Just an example you’ll understand, without being able to see behind the veil.
They've got a staggeringly low cost base because they crashed and left a trail of debt.
There are no legacy costs on the balance sheet because they were reneged on.
To say they're a "new market entrant" is untrue, and flybe themselves acknowledge this when they openly talk of "returning to former markets" !

[RogueOne]

They've got a staggeringly low cost base because they crashed and left a trail of debt.
There are no legacy costs on the balance sheet because they were reneged on.
To say they're a "new market entrant" is untrue, and flybe themselves acknowledge this when they openly talk of "returning to former markets" !

I think you're thinking of another company. Zzzz

[bean]

The problem is, especially on the LHR routes, Flybe’s costs will be high - using a Q400 there’s fewer seats to share the cost and low fares + high costs = :(
You don"t and will never know what Flybe's costs are and what deals they have negotiated with the airport operators

[bean]

Rate of climb/speed on departure is more of an issue.
Wrong
Q400 climbs at 210 knots and has jet rates of climb at low altitudes.
Latcc never had problems with Flybe 1 operational performance

[RogueOne]

Wrong
Q400 climbs at 210 knots and has jet rates of climb at low altitudes.
Latcc never had problems with Flybe 1 operational performance

& BE LHR Q400 SOPs were to climb out at 230kts!! :ok:

[RogueOne]

Both now accepted and have been flying today.
G-JECX
G-JECY

These 2 should be the next to be accepted.
G-ECOE
G-ECOR

Airframes right now are coming from NAC and Aergo, may be possible that acceptances may not have been BE airframes in the past. All will have the new livery and from what I've been told, a new interior.

[Fletch]

Not sure handling charges, etc will be lower than other operators already giving these companies business. If they are, they're low for a reason or they'll normalise pretty quickly.
I can't see how Flybe's costs will be lower than Eastern's, Loganair's or Emerald's costs. There can't be much in it even compared to easyJet or BA.
One of their competitors will have no legacy costs either. Others have profitable established routes/operations to help offset losses on competitive routes. Others have substantial cash reserves- with historic profitable operations.

[bean]

& BE LHR Q400 SOPs were to climb out at 230kts!! :ok:
Even better

[JobsaGoodun]

They've got a staggeringly low cost base because they crashed and left a trail of debt.
There are no legacy costs on the balance sheet because they were reneged on.
To say they're a "new market entrant" is untrue, and flybe themselves acknowledge this when they openly talk of "returning to former markets" !

I appreciate that we all have our views around whether what's happened should be permitted or not. Legally its permitted but I agree that morally its questionable, however our laws allow this so we need to challenge politicians for change, not each other. What's done is done and I say this as a shareholder of Flybe Group PLC who lost out a five figure sum when the airline was sold out of the group to Connect Airways leaving a shell company as my investment!

If they have a staggeringly low cost base, then this is because they're a new business that has been able to exploit circumstance to negotiate attractive deals when the industry was struggling. They're a new business, incorporated in 2021 as Thyme OpCo Ltd before changing their name to Flybe Ltd. They have a newly issued AOC, approved by the regulator (CAA) during a time of significant challenge due to the pandemic. I very much doubt that a new AOC will have been issued without the CAA taking a long, hard and detailed look at everything first, especially having witnessed the downfall of the flybe V1.

The brand is returning to former markets, but not the airline that operated previously but we can all have an opinion. I'm at least grateful that some former employees have the chance again to continue their careers.

[bean]

I appreciate that we all have our views around whether what's happened should be permitted or not. Legally its permitted but I agree that morally its questionable, however our laws allow this so we need to challenge politicians for change, not each other. What's done is done and I say this as a shareholder of Flybe Group PLC who lost out a five figure sum when the airline was sold out of the group to Connect Airways leaving a shell company as my investment!

If they have a staggeringly low cost base, then this is because they're a new business that has been able to exploit circumstance to negotiate attractive deals when the industry was struggling. They're a new business, incorporated in 2021 as Thyme OpCo Ltd before changing their name to Flybe Ltd. They have a newly issued AOC, approved by the regulator (CAA) during a time of significant challenge due to the pandemic. I very much doubt that a new AOC will have been issued without the CAA taking a long, hard and detailed look at everything first, especially having witnessed the downfall of the flybe V1.

The brand is returning to former markets, but not the airline that operated previously but we can all have an opinion. I'm at least grateful that some former employees have the chance again to continue their careers.
Well done. Splendid post

[BA318]

Not sure handling charges, etc will be lower than other operators already giving these companies business. If they are, they're low for a reason or they'll normalise pretty quickly.
I can't see how Flybe's costs will be lower than Eastern's, Loganair's or Emerald's costs. There can't be much in it even compared to easyJet or BA.
One of their competitors will have no legacy costs either. Others have profitable established routes/operations to help offset losses on competitive routes. Others have substantial cash reserves- with historic profitable operations.

Exactly. A start up isn’t free. They have been paying salaries, office costs, PR and plane costs without any income.

Costs are unlikely to be that negotiable at LHR for a couple of Q400 a day. Handling agents there recently gave big pay rises too that will all cost money and LHR passenger fees are fairly high as well (and they are trying to raise them further). The starting price of fares barely covers the LHR passenger charge before you add plane, crew, overheads, administration, fuel, advertising etc.

On the other regional routes there is much more scope for flexibility and that should help but then IAG/Emerald might play rough and fight hard and I would imagine Emerald’s costs are lower (lower tax home base, more efficient younger fleet, PR and advertising shared with mainline, purchasing power of their larger partner).

[Chesty Morgan]

& BE LHR Q400 SOPs were to climb out at 230kts!! :ok:
So even more fuel and less profit then...

[bean]

So even more fuel and less profit then...
Operational necessity?
You in your two iterations on Pprune were very well known as being a great Flybe 1 detractor as well as being a former employee. This is Flybe v2 please remember. Let's not set this thread on a downward slide YET AGAIN

[BA318]

Operational necessity?
You in your two iterations on Pprune were very well known as being a great Flybe 1 detractor as well as being a former employee. This is Flybe v2 please remember. Let's not set this thread on a downward slide YET AGAIN

There is no rule that says only positive Flybe comments are allowed. It doesn’t mean it’s a downward slide just because you don’t like the views.

[ATNotts]

There is no rule that says only positive Flybe comments are allowed. It doesn’t mean it’s a downward slide just because you don’t like the views.

Indeed, but constantly sniping about how it isn't a new business (which in any event is untrue), or how it somehow isn't fair (it isn't, but it is legal!) is different from raising concerns or opinions as to why this that or the other route may or may not be viable. I completely share the opinions of those who believe that some of the routes planned into LHR look to be almost suicidal - I posted just that only this morning!

[bean]

There is no rule that says only positive Flybe comments are allowed. It doesn’t mean it’s a downward slide just because you don’t like the views.
look at his and Lord Spandex Mashers posting history (same person) who, as a result of a complaint, led to a previous thread being closed
Your animosity towards me is reciprocated.
Spelling ok for you?

[Chesty Morgan]

Operational necessity?
You in your two iterations on Pprune were very well known as being a great Flybe 1 detractor as well as being a former employee. This is Flybe v2 please remember. Let's not set this thread on a downward slide YET AGAIN
A detractor or maybe someone with opposing views to you? Or perhaps even someone who made valid and accurate points which, despite being accurate and truthful, weren't universally liked.

I can't see anything positive about operating a tiny little TP into Heathrow, especially when it may be "operationally necessary" to operate said TP inefficiently. So you will forgive me my negative opinion.

[BA318]

look at his and Lord Spandex Mashers posting history. Same person
Your animosity towards me is reciprocated.
spelling ok for you?

haha I’m sure Pprune can check Ip addresses and see that we’re most likely not even in the same country given I’m in Scandinavia. You and a couple of other posters have very similar posts. Are you the same person?

I have no animosity towards you. I just don’t believe we need name calling, insinuations of fake accounts and constant upset if anyone posts anything other than glorious praise for Flybe2.

[Chesty Morgan]

Anything to say about Flybe 2 bean?

[bean]

Anything to say about Flybe 2 bean?
Only good luck

[T28B]

Dear bean
Dear BA318.
Let's take a breath, have a cup of tea, and please return to a civil discussion on the topic of this thread.
Thanks in advance.
T28B

[SWBKCB]

On a serious note - what font is the Flybe website written in? It seems to struggle to correctly display certain lettters/numbers (especially g's and 9's - and especially when in the middle of prices!) , or is it just my computer?

[Albert Hall]

This thread is permeated with the most passive-aggressive attitudes imaginable. It is not reassuring or helpful in any way as a reflection on the corporate culture prevailing in the "new" airline. It is probably doing more harm than good to the cause.

[Fletch]

On a serious note - what font is the Flybe website written in? It seems to struggle to correctly display certain lettters/numbers (especially g's and 9's - and especially when in the middle of prices!) , or is it just my computer?

I find the website poor. Amateur Copy and over emphasis on the Pence when you're trying to make a booking amongst other things . Easy corrected to be fair.

[jethro15]

Both now accepted and have been flying today.
G-JECX
G-JECY

These 2 should be the next to be accepted.
G-ECOE
G-ECOR
Is G-JECP not at Weeze in the new livery?

[JobsaGoodun]

I find the website poor. Amateur Copy and over emphasis on the Pence when you're trying to make a booking amongst other things . Easy corrected to be fair.

That’s interesting as I felt quite the opposite when browsing - I felt it was simple to understand, clean, responsive and quick too. Far better than regional competitors. Sure it can be improved like anything, clearer guidance on when routes start when searching for flights etc but I think they’ve done a pretty good job. Does what it needs to for me.

[Blackfriar]

G-JECY Flybe Dash-8 currently on the ground at Cardiff on crew training BEE99T

[055166k]

G-JECY surprise visit to Southampton. Welcome back!

[TartinTon]

Some nice chunky fares on the Flybe site now...look like either sales have been pretty good or they're chancing their arm! Either way, good luck to them.

[ETOPS]

Wishing everyone good luck today :ok:

[rolladyce]

All appears to be getting a little more interesting now for the new flybe......

Understand there are some creditors now circling collectively to place a LIEN on the nose of the first aircraft on day one...... especially when creditors totaling £650m such as BRAL Trustees at £90m, NAC who remain owned £60m and Environment Agency £48m and even GE at £17m among the larger.... a LIEN on day one would certainly make those still owed a small fortune including the many thousands of passengers think twice....

www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/flybe-saga-takes-new-twist-6927831

Looking forward to the launch now....

[ATNotts]

All appears to be getting a little more interesting now for the new flybe......

Understand there are some creditors now circling collectively to place a LIEN on the nose of the first aircraft on day one...... especially when creditors totaling £650m such as BRAL Trustees at £90m, NAC who remain owned £60m and Environment Agency £48m and even GE at £17m among the larger.... a LIEN on day one would certainly make those still owed a small fortune including the many thousands of passengers think twice....

www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/flybe-saga-takes-new-twist-6927831

Looking forward to the launch now....
Absolute fantasy! A lien has to be taken out against a debtor. Unless the leasing company owes money to the alleged creditor no law firm would be so reckless.

[Albert Hall]

I can't see how that can possibly be true. NAC has leased the Q400s to Flybe 2 and so it is hardly likely to seek to detain an aircraft which it has just delivered! It is a standard term of a lease that the lessor confirms that the aircraft is free and clear of all liens anyway.

Of the other creditors from Flybe 1, none has the power to detain an aircraft and if it did seek some form of legal process to do so, I'd expect that to be overturned PDQ.

[SWBKCB]

I thought the debt remained with the a/c - sure when I worked for a handling agent there was a list of a/c we had to report to the airport authority because of old debts? Long time ago though!

[Albert Hall]

The aircraft lessors had to do a pretty significant negotiation with the airports when Flybe 1 fell over. They will also have had to guarantee to a new lessee (Flybe 2) that the aircraft are clear of liens.

You do sometimes get a position where the debt is so big that a lessor will agree with a new operator that a certain aircraft can't be flown into a certain country - I remember some BAE146s years ago which had flightdeck placards saying that the aircraft must not be flown into Italy. I can't see that any of this will be relevant here after the mopping up exercise between airports and lessors which led to the Q400s being released from detention about two years ago. I can't see how they would/will have a problem.

[davidjohnson6]

Is there anything in Flybe2's argument with the CAA over the LHR slots... or some other piece of corporate communication... which somehow leads to a plausible case around continuity of the company from Flybe1 ?
I'm not a lawyer... but wondering if this is perhaps a bit of a tightrope whereby it is easy for somebody to accidentally say the wrong thing. There's an awful lot of obscure and surprising pieces of case law

Getting things legally watertight is not always easy

[ETOPS]

Congratulations to the new team at FlyBe :ok:

Succesful ontime departure of the first flight BEE404 from BHX to BHD.............

[RogueOne]

Well done to all at Flybe. Amazing job.

[ATNotts]

I thought the debt remained with the a/c - sure when I worked for a handling agent there was a list of a/c we had to report to the airport authority because of old debts? Long time ago though!

Your posting does remind me that following the Courtline bankruptcy all the 1-11-500s were registered in UK, with none of them retaining their former Courtline identities; but then again following British Eagle's demise (I am showing my age!!!) the Britannias all retained their British Eagle identities when they were operated by Monarch.

I wonder if there are legal differences between leased and owned airframes, or the wording of the leases perhaps.

[tallaonejuliet]

Congratulations to the new team at FlyBe :ok:

Succesful ontime departure of the first flight BEE404 from BHX to BHD.............

Fingers crossed they can start paying money back to the BRAL pension fund :ugh:
There is probably more chance of Boris resigning than this shower of charlatans paying their creditors back.

[BA318]

I saw in pictures that a drink and snack were provided. Is this just a first flight thing or are they offering this? It so it’s a great addition to at least mark them out as slightly different.

[oapilot]

I saw in pictures that a drink and snack were provided. Is this just a first flight thing or are they offering this? It so it’s a great addition to at least mark them out as slightly different.

Loganair already do this as standard.

[pabely]

Fingers crossed they can start paying money back to the BRAL pension fund :ugh:
There is probably more chance of Boris resigning than this shower of charlatans paying their creditors back.
I'm with you, too much of a bad taste from FlyBe #1 for me to give cash to these guys. Myself and friends seriously still out if pocket still and I'm sure this will end the same way whilst directors walk away scot-free again whilst boosting their own pension pots!

[JobsaGoodun]

Fingers crossed they can start paying money back to the BRAL pension fund :ugh:
There is probably more chance of Boris resigning than this shower of charlatans paying their creditors back.

Why would they? This is a brand new compnay that just shares the old brand name.
Perhaps your question should be directed at British Airways who left a large hole in this scheme when they transferred BAConnect to Flybe back on 2007.

[bean]

Why would they? This is a brand new compnay that just shares the old brand name.
Perhaps your question should be directed at British Airways who left a large hole in this scheme when they transferred BAConnect to Flybe back on 2007.
Correct
It was all contained in the Flybe Plc reports and accounts

All this stupid fixation with Flybe is only because of the new airlines choice of that name. If they had maybe called themselves bloggs airways we wouldn't have the umpteenth degenetating Flybe thread in the last nine years

[RogueOne]

Why would they? This is a brand new compnay that just shares the old brand name.
Perhaps your question should be directed at British Airways who left a large hole in this scheme when they transferred BAConnect to Flybe back on 2007.

Exactly. Different company, different airline, only bearing the same name. If anyone is aggrieved from Flybe v1, they should vent in that thread not here.. and speak to the Joint Administrators to whom they have a claim

But just to humour them for a minute, I'm sure there was a court victory for ex-Monarch pilots against the Govt not too long ago, who had their pension fund put into the PPF. They got back most of what they were owed from what I can recall. Anyway here's the old Flybe company: (now renamed) https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02769768

..and here's the thread for people to go and moan in: https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

All this stupid fixation with Flybe is only because of the new airlines choice of that name. If they had maybe called themselves bloggs airways we wouldn't have the umpteenth degenetating Flybe thread in the last nine years
They chose to call themselves the same name.
Use the same branding and font.
Use not only the same aircraft type but the same airframes and registrations.
Fly the same routes.
Hire the same staff.
Use the same airports.
State in their own words that they were "returning" and "relaunching".
Use the same IATA and ICAO codes and I believe they're using the same "Jersey" callsign.

The only new thing about this is the legal piece of paper that calls it "new". Anyone with eyes knows when it walks like a duck and makes a quacking sound that it's a duck.
Let's give them a chance and see how they do, but every time you bleat this fiction about an all new airlines, expect the counterpoint.

[ATNotts]

They chose to call themselves the same name.
Use the same branding and font.
Use not only the same aircraft type but the same airframes and registrations.
Fly the same routes.
Hire the same staff.
Use the same airports.
State in their own words that they were "returning" and "relaunching".
Use the same IATA and ICAO codes and I believe they're using the same "Jersey" callsign.

The only new thing about this is the legal piece of paper that calls it "new". Anyone with eyes knows when it walks like a duck and makes a quacking sound that it's a duck.
Let's give them a chance and see how they do, but every time you bleat this fiction about an all new airlines, expect the counterpoint.
This broken record is becoming tiresome. For pitys sake give it a rest.

I appreciate some people have enormous chips on their shoulders, but like remainers smarting from the outcome of a certain referendum keep being told, 'get over it'.

[cavokblues]

Same directors who were heavily involved with the old airline's owners. (Peachey and the now resigned Farrell)

So, we've aircraft with the same name on their fuselage, with the same staff and the same directors.

I guess using that logic BA Euroflyer are a completely new airline all because they've a new companies house registration?

A new legal entity does not mean you're a completely new airline.

[bean]

To which airports and on what routes should they fly Skipness. And yes some staff who've been unemployed for two years particularly pilots, now have flying jobs again. You begrudge them that do you?

[runway30]

Same directors who were heavily involved with the old airline's owners. (Peachey and the now resigned Farrell)

So, we've aircraft with the same name on their fuselage, with the same staff and the same directors.

I guess using that logic BA Euroflyer are a completely new airline all because they've a new companies house registration?

A new legal entity does not mean you're a completely new airline.

If I buy the Jolly Fryer fish shop down the road, people will still come in through the door because the name is over the door but I might change the fish, the batter and the oil. In a very obscure place (plaice?) will be a sign telling people that there is a very different owner but most people won't notice.

If there is a business out there called the Jolly Fryer, what I have just said has absolutely no connection to your business.

[cavokblues]

I get the analogy but it's missing an important point. You had a fish shop called the Jolly Fryer. But, despite your best efforts to turn it around, you fail for reasons outside your control and the fish shop was placed into administration. You then set up a new company, buy the new Jolly Fryer name from the administrators and then set up a new company at companies house and then transfer the old companies name to the new company. It's still the same fish shop, except now it files its accounts under a different company registration.

[SWBKCB]

Exactly. Different company, different airline, only bearing the same name. If anyone is aggrieved from Flybe v1, they should vent in that thread not here.. and speak to the Joint Administrators to whom they have a claim


Follow the money. Who's paying?

[RogueOne]

Same directors who were heavily involved with the old airline's owners. (Peachey and the now resigned Farrell)

So, we've aircraft with the same name on their fuselage, with the same staff and the same directors.

A new legal entity does not mean you're a completely new airline.

But setting up a entirely new Airline with an entirely new AOC and approvals and licenses from the CAA does. Give it a rest.

& Farrell and Peachy were not the ones responsible for Flybe v1's demise. They came onboard with Cyrus (the owners.. the shareholders) to try and save the airline before Covid. Why not blame the likes of Christine Ourmières-Widener, Jim French et al for all the missteps.. rather than bleat on and on in here; the Flybe v2 thread.

Agenda after agenda, I tell you.

New Flybe is airborne!!! All the naysayers and doubters need a huge slice of humble pie. :}:}:}:}:}

[bean]

But setting up a entirely new Airline with an entirely new AOC and approvals and licenses from the CAA does. Give it a rest.

& Farrell and Peachy were not the ones responsible for Flybe v1's demise. They came onboard with Cyrus (the owners.. the shareholders) to try and save the airline before Covid. Why not blame the likes of Christine Ourmières-Widener, Jim French et al for all the missteps.. rather than bleat on and on in here; the Flybe v2 thread.

Agenda after agenda, I tell you.

New Flybe is airborne!!! All the naysayers and doubters need a huge slice of humble pie. :}:}:}:}:}
Well said. And it was Virgin and Stobart who pulled the plug. Farrell has leftbanyway

[tallaonejuliet]

Why would they? This is a brand new compnay that just shares the old brand name.
Perhaps your question should be directed at British Airways who left a large hole in this scheme when they transferred BAConnect to Flybe back on 2007.

Yep, a big boy done it and ran away!
Flybe took on the liabilities as part of the deal, it was on them to manage the fund going forward.
Maybe a new company by law, but it's the same rattling skeleton underneath.

[runway30]

But setting up a entirely new Airline with an entirely new AOC and approvals and licenses from the CAA does. Give it a rest.

& Farrell and Peachy were not the ones responsible for Flybe v1's demise. They came onboard with Cyrus (the owners.. the shareholders) to try and save the airline before Covid. Why not blame the likes of Christine Ourmières-Widener, Jim French et al for all the missteps.. rather than bleat on and on in here; the Flybe v2 thread.

Agenda after agenda, I tell you.

New Flybe is airborne!!! All the naysayers and doubters need a huge slice of humble pie. :}:}:}:}:}

So we have assets that are used within the business which can be aircraft, vehicles etc. but also include goodwill. I think goodwill is a difficult concept when the company has gone spectacularly bust owing people money. The assets have an owner which can be a person or a body corporate. Whilst a person would generally have unlimited liability, the liability of a limited liability company is limited to the capital invested in the company. So long as they don't trade whilst insolvent, the liability of the directors and shareholders is limited to their investment. If my name is John Smith, I am not liable for the debts of any other John Smith. In the same way a new airline is not liable for any debt of any identically named old airline even though they have bought the goodwill entitling them to trade under an identical name.

[RogueOne]

Lots of other nice articles online, Birmingham Mail, a couple from Belfast, plus nice gifts for the passengers.

Everyone looks really happy in all the photos online, on twitter and linkedin.

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/flybe-flight-birmingham-belfast-uk-b2057073.html

[cavokblues]

Why does having a new AOC make you a brand new airline? So Ryanair UK and BA Euroflyer are brand new airlines entirely?

I'm not blaming Peachey and Farrell, or anyone, for the old airline's demise. I just profoundly disagree with the assertion this is a new airline with no connections whatsoever.

Edit: Just noticed the headline of the Independent article is 'Flybe Returns.' Please can those outraged by this make sure you write to the journalist Simon Calder and tell him he has an 'agenda.'

[bean]

Why does having a new AOC make you a brand new airline? So Ryanair UK and BA Euroflyer are brand new airlines entirely?

I'm not blaming Preachey and Farrell anyone for the old airline's demise. I just profoundly disagree with the assertion this is a new airline with no connections whatsoever.

Edit: Just noticed the headline of the Independent article is 'Flybe Returns.' Please can those outraged by this make sure you write to the journalist Simon Calder and tell him he has an 'agenda.'
Read the bloody article

[cavokblues]

I've read the 'bloody' article, old bean. A nice quote from the BHX MD welcoming the airline back. Make sure you let him know how angry his quote makes you. :ok:

[bean]

I've read the 'bloody' article, old bean. A nice quote from the BHX MD welcoming the airline back. Make sure you let him know how angry his quote makes you. :ok:
Put your money where your mouth is, write to Flybe and give them your opinion instead of deliberately being provocative on here

[Jamie2009]

It's unlikely either faction of the new business v's continuation of the old business are going to convince the other that they are right - its just repetitive.
Legally, Flybe is a new business, morally each to their own but given the numbers of forward ticket sales Joe Public doesn't care.

[Stormonttrooper]

Just seen the report on UTV Live.
Water Cannon from the fire service and Flybe German biscuits.
It's bound to be a success !

[cavokblues]

Disagreeing with you old bean isn't being deliberately provocative anymore than some of your remarks on here have been.

I think Jamie2009 has hit the nail on the head. If the product and price are good Joe Public won't give a hoot. As I've said before, I wish the airline well. Any new airline offering people jobs in this superb industry is to be welcomed.

[bean]

It's unlikely either faction of the new business v's continuation of the old business are going to convince the other that they are right - its just repetitive.
Legally, Flybe is a new business, morally each to their own but given the numbers of forward ticket sales Joe Public doesn't care.
Thank you. Sense at last

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

So let's park it from boths sides and see how they do. I don't think they deserve to succeed, as failed businesses really should stay failed IMHO. There's a bad smell about reneging on your debts and relaunching and many, many do not buy the "it's a different airline" line. The public will likely buy tickets and the losers may end up being the airlines who didn't renege on their debts and kept afloat during the toughest of times. The winner may well be the debt free "new" flybe, the public doesn't care. Any job losses at Loganair, Eastern, Aurigny or Blue Islands at the door of flybe2 will be especially hard to swallow. I am no left wing socialist but some business practices are clearly legal and IMHO, unethical.
But please stop the pretence that's they've got nothing to do with the failed original, it's not believable.

[runway30]

So let's park it from boths sides and see how they do. I don't think they deserve to succeed, as failed businesses really should stay failed IMHO. There's a bad smell about reneging on your debts and relaunching and many, many do not buy the "it's a different airline" line. The public will likely buy tickets and the losers may end up being the airlines who didn't renege on their debts and kept afloat during the toughest of times. The winner may well be the debt free "new" flybe, the public doesn't care. Any job losses at Loganair, Eastern, Aurigny or Blue Islands at the door of flybe2 will be especially hard to swallow. I am no left wing socialist but some business practices are clearly legal and IMHO, unethical.
But please stop the pretence that's they've got nothing to do with the failed original, it's not believable.

Last word because I'm losing the will to live.

Both sides are correct. They have bought the continuing business reputation of the old business so are continuing the old business but haven't bought a going concern.
It is a new company with a new AOC and a new Operating Licence so is clearly a new airline so that is correct also.

ENDS

[BHX5DME]

Good loads on BHX-BHD on day 1

[davidjohnson6]

Good loads on BHX-BHD on day 1
Are you able to provide a comment on loads on day 2 ? I'm guessing that loads on day 1 might be skewed a bit by various people wanting to be on a flight on day 1. Looking at the calendar and allowing for people to be off work to make use of bank holidays, it's not really until about Monday 9 May that we get to a state of full "normality" and likely everyone being at work... !

[Saabdriver1]

Saying this is nothing to do with the old Flybe despite their many statements about bringing a "much loved" brand (loved by whom?!!) back to the skies, is flying in the face of reality. But I've decided that trying to hold the vulture capitalists behind all of this responsible for the damage to the BRAL pension scheme is also flying in the face of reality. They were the largest shareholder when Flybe collapsed and have had the largest secured creditor payout, leaving the pension scheme worse off than they are. I don't think they've actually profited as yet but they're certainly setting out to.

There have been sound decisions made elsewhere to ignore this whole thing and give it enough rope to hang itself. Looking at the choice of routes and the number of fronts on which to fight, there'll be no shortage of rope.

[wanna]

Saying this is nothing to do with the old Flybe despite their many statements about bringing a "much loved" brand (loved by whom?!!) back to the skies, is flying in the face of reality. But I've decided that trying to hold the vulture capitalists behind all of this responsible for the damage to the BRAL pension scheme is also flying in the face of reality. They were the largest shareholder when Flybe collapsed and have had the largest secured creditor payout, leaving the pension scheme worse off than they are. I don't think they've actually profited as yet but they're certainly setting out to.

There have been sound decisions made elsewhere to ignore this whole thing and give it enough rope to hang itself. Looking at the choice of routes and the number of fronts on which to fight, there'll be no shortage of rope.

I had assumed from the rumours they would have been offering something more. Same old cabin in the Dash, LMs ATR fleet is a much nicer place to be. No at seat power to set them out, nothing really to show they're different to the rest on the market. Shame. They're picking a fight with every operator in the U.K except for Aurigny and Blue Islands. Odd. But aren't offering any niches to split them out. My money would be spent with Emerald or LM. both operating nice aircraft with modern cabins. (ATR fleet).

[southamptonavgeek]

Same old cabin in the Dash
That's not correct. Apparently the seats, carpets and lighting have been redone to a much higher standard than before.

[Albert Hall]

They’ve redone cabins on the first two (very nicely, so I hear) but apparently the rest are not yet done and may not be done before the aircraft are required in service.

[RogueOne]

A nice read

https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/04/14/whats-it-like-flying-flybe-2022/

What has changed at (new) Flybe?Virtually everything, as it turns out. Whilst the brand and Heathrow Summer slots were retained, a new management team was brought in. It is, in effect, a brand-new startup.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

You just can't let it go can you? 🤣
It is, in effect, the same airline in every other way except for the legal technicality of the new AOC. Same staff, branding, routes, aeroplanes, staff, routes, strategy and positioning. Effectively, they just legally reneged on their debts.

[wanna]

That's not correct. Apparently the seats, carpets and lighting have been redone to a much higher standard than before.

Having seen the cabins its the SAME just refreshed. So the same style seats, the same drag carpet and limited attempt at mood lighting, although the purple is gone. Why they didn't invest in a modern cabin like those from the new ATRs I cant understand, it would have set them apart. Shame.

[willy wombat]

As an engineering having previously worked for FAS, I would much rather Flybe a 15 year old Dash 8 than any ATR product having a "fancy" interior is nothing when the build quality & design is so poor, especially as the parent company is Airbus.

Strange comment in my opinion. I worked with ATRs for years and they were (and still are) fantastic, reliable, well built money making machines.

[CaptainActor]

Firstly, as some are quite passionate about it on here, despite my predictions, I hope flybe succeeds.
But, I believe its going to be a 50/50 prospect at best. Rising cost of living, changes to how people work, fuel costs and regional competition, are no doubt going to make it tricky to make profits/sell tickets in the medium/long term.
I think someone said a few posts back that the loads were good. That's great but on two aircraft!! Not enough to sustain an airline. The loads should be full and tickets sold out to give an indication of success. But without the actual load figures its hard to predict and I assume they have more aircraft to come.
Anyway, time and financial updates from the company will tell.

[ICEHOUSES]

As an engineering having previously worked for FAS, I would much rather Flybe a 15 year old Dash 8 than any ATR product having a "fancy" interior is nothing when the build quality & design is so poor, especially as the parent company is Airbus.
Well the airlines certainly keep ordering the new ATR product compared to the Dash 8 order book.

[wanna]

As an engineering having previously worked for FAS, I would much rather Flybe a 15 year old Dash 8 than any ATR product having a "fancy" interior is nothing when the build quality & design is so poor, especially as the parent company is Airbus.

I thought it was fairly common knowledge amongst the Exeter circles the reason that certain batches of Dash 8s having such bad tech issues were down to the quality control in the manufacturing process by DeHavilland and later Bombardier rather than Flybe engineering resources (even up until the end). Regardless of feelings on either TP, both meet a standard and are then licensed by the relevant authorities and maintained to very high part 145 standards. A cabin is a cabin, but when you take into account that the traveling pax dont really care whether its a Dash or ATR... im surprised that the cabin wasn't made to be more modern with little extras like at seat power, slimline modern seats etc etc, matching LM / Emerald and going one up. So far ive not seen anything that sets them apart from the competition, LM and Emerald certainly offer a niche, Easyjet and BA offer brand awareness and fill the gaps. Im just surprised, but as people have said the CEO is experienced so should know what hes doing... But the midlands and NI aren't the USA.

[JobsaGoodun]

You just can't let it go can you? 🤣
It is, in effect, the same airline in every other way except for the legal technicality of the new AOC. Same staff, branding, routes, aeroplanes, staff, routes, strategy and positioning. Effectively, they just legally reneged on their debts.

Sorry but I simply don’t buy the fact that it’s the same staff. The CEO, COO, CCO and CTO are all new into the business. Sure there will be some operational staff who chose to seek new employment with the business but surely that’s no surprise, given the airports served. The board of Flybe is also new.

[ATNotts]

Sorry but I simply don’t buy the fact that it’s the same staff. The CEO, COO, CCO and CTO are all new into the business. Sure there will be some operational staff who chose to seek new employment with the business but surely that’s no surprise, given the airports served. The board of Flybe is also new.

I really don't understand why some simply can't accept that; a) it was a totally legal buy out of administration, b) it is a new business, and c) because - for some strange reason, they just chose to use the same trading name for the new business.

I completely understand the frustration with the way in which in UK, among other jurisdictions, it is quite legal for businesses to be bought out of administration with no liability for the debts of the defunct business, and I have been on the wrong end of such transactions during my working life. Really these frustrations (and particularly the Flybe case) should find their way to a business ethics thread within Jet Blast.

[Jamie2009]

You just can't let it go can you? 🤣
It is, in effect, the same airline in every other way except for the legal technicality of the new AOC. Same staff, branding, routes, aeroplanes, staff, routes, strategy and positioning. Effectively, they just legally reneged on their debts.

Please take the hint and lets move on. For all our sanities sake this constant repetition on both sides of the debate is just boring.

As for the seats.. average flight time is less than an hour so I think seat power etc are niceties but when cost is taken into account on a start up business they are not commercially sensible.
Most people want a good flight schedule at the right price. Fancy seats for LH yes but regional travel... icing on the cake.

The ATR is a great regional aircraft, not perfect by any means but sales numbers don't lie.

[JobsaGoodun]

Key to aircraft choice is surely not aesthetics, but operational capability.

There’s no question that the ATR is more economical but it’s also slower and at a curfewed airport like BHD that makes a difference. By mixing up their network Flybe will be able to get 5 return trips per day from the aircraft if they want where the ATR will likely only achieve 4.

The DH4 also offers a better option on longer routes like BHXAVN. According to GCMap this is 665 miles with a block of 2hrs 20mins. Compare that to Blue Islands ATR on JERIBZ which at 735 miles has a block of 3hrs.

I think Flybe just have a different route network for which there are advantages operating the DH4

[wanna]

Key to aircraft choice is surely not aesthetics, but operational capability.

There’s no question that the ATR is more economical but it’s also slower and at a curfewed airport like BHD that makes a difference. By mixing up their network Flybe will be able to get 5 return trips per day from the aircraft if they want where the ATR will likely only achieve 4.

The DH4 also offers a better option on longer routes like BHXAVN. According to GCMap this is 665 miles with a block of 2hrs 20mins. Compare that to Blue Islands ATR on JERIBZ which at 735 miles has a block of 3hrs.

I think Flybe just have a different route network for which there are advantages operating the DH4

The reality is it all comes down to cost, they had rated crews, manuals etc all derived around the Dash and its probably no shock that the leasing companies will have bitten there arms off to place the aircraft. If it was a clean slate Op with no background would they have gone Dash? Maybe, would they have gone ATR? Maybe, would they have gone for any aircraft they thought they could make work, probably. The reality is from a average joe pax perspective an ATR is the same as a Dash is the same as a Fokker. Hence my surprise that they didn't make the cabins nicer, I would choose to fly in the new easyjet cabin over BA, I would also choose to fly in the LM / Emerald Cabin over the old style Dash... IF the price was right and they were going in the direction I needed.

[bean]

The administration of FBE realisations is extended until 2024. Part of the deal for the sale was that new Flybe would make further contributions to EY depending on profitability
We will never know the potential amounts to be paid because' understandably that is confidential. It's all out in the public domain for pitys sake

[bean]

Sorry but I simply don’t buy the fact that it’s the same staff. The CEO, COO, CCO and CTO are all new into the business. Sure there will be some operational staff who chose to seek new employment with the business but surely that’s no surprise, given the airports served. The board of Flybe is also new.
Hear hear and thank you. I knew that but did not post because i am rapidly losing patience with this argument. For however long it lasts it's brought much needed employment to people.
Old Fltbee was a basket case into which Cyrus Stobart and Virgin pumped £100,000,000 and still mega millions would have been needed to save it

[Stormonttrooper]

"There’s no question that the ATR is more economical but it’s also slower and at a curfewed airport like BHD that makes a difference. "

Really ?

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

I really don't understand why some simply can't accept that; a) it was a totally legal buy out of administration, b) it is a new business, and c) because - for some strange reason, they just chose to use the same trading name for the new business.
Because you can do perfectly legal things which are in many people's views, unethical. For many people, the dishonesty of having it both ways is wrong. Being a "well loved brand returning" and a "whole new airline with no connection to the old"' is bending credulity so far as to break. I find the whole thing dishonest, they consciously chose this path, there were less controversial options. I mean no one really believes Glasgow Rangers FC dates from 2012 although that's the legal position 😉 If flybe2 succeed, the "whole new business" thing will be airbrushed away, however legally accurate it may be.

We're not gonna agree on this, an we're entitled to challenge questionable fanboy assertions. Let's see how they do.

[Jamie2009]

Because you can do perfectly legal things which are in many people's views, unethical. For many people, the dishonesty of having it both ways is wrong. Being a "well loved brand returning" and a "whole new airline with no connection to the old"' is bending credulity so far as to break. I find the whole thing dishonest, they consciously chose this path, there were less controversial options. I mean no one really believes Glasgow Rangers FC dates from 2012 although that's the legal position 😉 If flybe2 succeed, the "whole new business" thing will be airbrushed away, however legally accurate it may be.

We're not gonna agree on this, an we're entitled to challenge questionable fanboy assertions. Let's see how they do.

Completely agree, you’ve had the final word so lets park it there 👍
Nothing more needs to said on the subject.

[Albert Hall]

As far as I can see, both Emerald and Flybe are planning four rotations a day on their Belfast-based aircraft (ATRs and Q4s). If flying short routes like Glasgow, both could probably go to five but look to have the common sense with all of the trouble out there on airports and ground handlers not to do so right now!

Apart from some false sense of confidence that pitching a Q4 against a jet on BHD-LHR is a good idea - which I don't think anyone with an ATR would - then I can't see any difference beyond the fact the Q4 is a lot heavier, burns more fuel and only carries six more passengers (if full - which I doubt anyone will be with competition on most routes).

[mart901]

As far as I can see, both Emerald and Flybe are planning four rotations a day on their Belfast-based aircraft (ATRs and Q4s). If flying short routes like Glasgow, both could probably go to five but look to have the common sense with all of the trouble out there on airports and ground handlers not to do so right now!

Apart from some false sense of confidence that pitching a Q4 against a jet on BHD-LHR is a good idea - which I don't think anyone with an ATR would - then I can't see any difference beyond the fact the Q4 is a lot heavier, burns more fuel and only carries six more passengers (if full - which I doubt anyone will be with competition on most routes).

To be fair Flybe have had as many as 7x daily rotations on BHX and MAN in the past and 5x daily 146 flights. Whilst business travel isn't what it was there's an explosion in leisure demand now and U2 have ramped up their offering from BFS with the lack of competition from when Flybe went bust - I'm sure they'll retreat back to some degree, they won't burn cash forever fighting for business.

[Alteagod]

It's hard to believe this new airline nonsense as it is more or less same crew same management same almost everything. There is just not enough difference for people to believe it is something new or even improved. Back to charging for bags at the gate. But Feddie Laker pulled the same stunt and relaunched Laker but based in US when relaunched

[bean]

It's hard to believe this new airline nonsense as it is more or less same crew same management same almost everything. There is just not enough difference for people to believe it is something new or even improved. Back to charging for bags at the gate. But Feddie Laker pulled the same stunt and relaunched Laker but based in US when relaunched
it is not the same management

[willy wombat]

It's hard to believe this new airline nonsense as it is more or less same crew same management same almost everything. There is just not enough difference for people to believe it is something new or even improved. Back to charging for bags at the gate. But Feddie Laker pulled the same stunt and relaunched Laker but based in US when relaunched
and look how that ended

[CaptainActor]

There is one or two thats the same management.

But irrelevant of that, it is the same business model. But smaller and in more challenging times.

I do wish it to succeed but the odds are against it.

[stewyb]

Good god this thread is both tedious and depressing!

[CaptainActor]

Good god your statement is tedious and depressing.

.

[ZULUBOY]

Good god this thread is both tedious and depressing!

Indeed. So, so tedious

[bean]

Indeed. So, so tedious
Tedious, repetative and often nonsensicle

[tigertanaka]

Maybe there should be a separate thread for people to argue about FlyBe 1 v Flybe 2 and the rest of us can discuss the here and now.

[ZULUBOY]

Maybe there should be a separate thread for people to argue about FlyBe 1 v Flybe 2 and the rest of us can discuss the here and now.

Good suggestion.

I try to fly as little as possible and we would normally take the train from Birmingham to Berlin, however, Eurostar is sold out for the convenient Saturday morning connection to Cologne via Brussels (May half-term weekend) so we're going to fly to Amsterdam and take the train from there. I found the Flybe website very easy to use and the prices were good. Decent flight times too

[RogueOne]

That's the Flybe v1 thread.

Can those people go there.

https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637085-flybe-v1.html

[BA318]

It's very sad that the same old people keep nit picking the same old stuff over and over again like Brexit. Just get over yourself, move on and most importantly SHUT UP!

If Flybe had put new cabins like Porter etc they would have been attacked for wasting money or uncomfortable seats, the way I see it they can't win with these idiots.
From the inaugural flight it appears to me Flybe are taking this comeback very seriously, most experienced captains, most experienced cabin crew on the very first day shows a serious statement of intent to make this business work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdIX-cPCe-I

Is there really a need for such language as idiots and shut up. It’s just a discussion on a forum. Let’s try to keep it civil. If people go on about something you don’t like ignore it and the conversation dies or moves on.

As for most experienced pilots etc meaning they take it seriously almost any carrier would do that and does do that. BA have a select group of crew just for media flights etc. Did anyone have such low expectations of Flybe2 that they expected something different?

However it’s great to see things seem to have gone smoothly so far given the bad coverage other carriers have had in recent days it should certainly help them further.

[SWBKCB]

Just one of those change curve things - anger, denial, blame others....

[wanna]

It's very sad that the same old people keep nit picking the same old stuff over and over again like Brexit. Just get over yourself, move on and most importantly SHUT UP!

If Flybe had put new cabins like Porter etc they would have been attacked for wasting money or uncomfortable seats, the way I see it they can't win with these idiots.
From the inaugural flight it appears to me Flybe are taking this comeback very seriously, most experienced captains, most experienced cabin crew on the very first day shows a serious statement of intent to make this business work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdIX-cPCe-I

I think most forums / threads have a point of discussing the product the company is offering and the cabin is certainly part of the product. An area that's surprising and works in their favour is levelling with LM with catering, offering biscuits and drinks. A nice touch even if its the same as some of the competition.
How have the loads been over the weekend? Like most business its probably had some good loads so hopefully that carries on into the summer.

Does it really matter how experienced the crew is as long as they're delivering the product to the best of their ability?

[brian_dromey]

An area that's surprising and works in their favour is levelling with LM with catering, offering biscuits and drinks. A nice touch even if its the same as some of the competition.

Is this a long-term proposition? I saw it on the inaugural flight reviews and hoped it would be permanent, but assumed that it might have been for the publicity flights? Or is this temporary until they get some sort of Buy-On-Board infrastructure rolled out?
Standard Class on the train wouldn’t give refreshments, but First Class usually would. I guess it depends who they feel they are competing with and which passengers they want to attract?

[BA318]

A big difference between discussing and constantly finding anything to “slag” off about the airline. If people don’t like me telling them to shut up etc I suggest they stop saying the same things again and again aka Flybe 1. I have to admit I don’t like the new cabin and would have preferred beige seats and purple mood lighting but hey ho.

Again just because you don’t want to hear or read it doesn’t mean everyone has to agree and if we don’t we get called names or told to shut up. I could equally write shut up about it but then there’s no value in the forum.

Let’s keep it civil.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

If people don’t like me telling them to shut up etc I suggest they stop saying the same things again and again aka Flybe 1.
They say the same things again and again because they hold an honest belief that they're true. You saying "shut up" isn't going to win anyone over, and is, as you well know, only going to get you banned. We can't add anything new to the past arguments at the mo, so let's see how things pan out operationally and commercially. Let's debate the wisdom of their route choices, their finances and their strategy and, as part of that, let's be careful some folk don't get away with rewriting history.

Your username is an interesting one, I bet you aren't a huge fan of Eastern? That's how some people feel about flybe2.

[bean]

They say the same things again and again because they hold an honest belief that they're true. You saying "shut up" isn't going to win anyone over, and is, as you well know, only going to get you banned. We can't add anything new to the past arguments at the mo, so let's see how things pan out operationally and commercially. Let's debate the wisdom of their route choices, their finances and their strategy and, as part of that, let's be careful some folk don't get away with rewriting history.

Your username is an interesting one, I bet you aren't a huge fan of Eastern? That's how some people feel about flybe2.
You've got that totally wrong, he never worked for Air Southwest as he will tell you. Well done

[bean]

You've got that totally wrong, he never worked for Air Southwest as he will tell you. Well done
By the way, i don't know him, i've just read his knowledgable professional posts from the past
In case anyone tries to dredge up previousy highly inaccurate posts. I am not posting under multiple names and therefore i am not Airsouthwest but, i do agree with a lot of what he says

[wanna]

By the way, i don't know him, i've just read his knowledgable professional posts from the past
In case anyone tries to dredge up previousy highly inaccurate posts. I am not posting under multiple names and therefore i am not Airsouthwest but, i do agree with a lot of what he says

The problem with this thread seems to be a select few going back to the same points... arguing over essentially ego / difference of opinion even when the conversation moves on. Lets face it theres going to be a lot of talk both pro and con like all threads on here. Theres going to be critique of what they're doing or not doing etc. But at the end of the day this is a forum to discuss rumours etc.

So to that end...

What have the loads been like over the weekend? Plus when are the next tranche of Aircraft being delivered, I see theres still a Dash at Exeter, is this pre delivery MX? It is somewhat funny how flybe are using Exeter Aerospace that are now owned by Dublin Aerospace that has the same owner as Emerald. Hopefully the quality of the product Exeter Aerospace is somewhat higher than that previously offered.

[bean]

Wanna, there's one at Malta on a recently signed contract as well

[wanna]

I did see that on Medavia Socials, good to see they're back maintaining the Dash after they ceased operating their own. If youve ever been to their facility in Malta its very impressive.

[wanna]

It's only temporary, Flybe have signed a contract with Medavia in Malta so all their aircraft will fly out there for maintenance. I don't understand why they've chosen them (although they are known to be very good) as Exeter makes a more logical choice, especially for emergency diverts aka 2019 left aileron cable snapping.

It will all come down to cost and availability. This is probably an area where the clean slate idea rings true, go where you can get the best value MX. Medavia are well regarded and part owned by Air Nostrum (or the group that owns them). Exeter may also not have the capacity, its always incredibly busy there, more so than before.

Re the emergency divert, if flybe won't be flying to Exeter diverting might no be so easy, no ground handling contract, no assistance etc. Reality is most stuff can and does get fixed on the line. Not many airlines had or have the luxury of a true in-house 145 and large hangar facility. Plus im sure the crew would rather position to Malta than Exeter!!

[bean]

It will all come down to cost and availability. This is probably an area where the clean slate idea rings true, go where you can get the best value MX. Medavia are well regarded and part owned by Air Nostrum (or the group that owns them). Exeter may also not have the capacity, its always incredibly busy there, more so than before.

Re the emergency divert, if flybe won't be flying to Exeter diverting might no be so easy, no ground handling contract, no assistance etc. Reality is most stuff can and does get fixed on the line. Not many airlines had or have the luxury of a true in-house 145 and large hangar facility. Plus im sure the crew would rather position to Malta than Exeter!!
Nice one Wanna. Bit of humour whiçh this thread sorely needs

[Jersey32D]

Just before the previous incarnation of Flybe went under, we sent a few frames to Medavia (JECP for example...) for heavy checks.

At the time, it was said to have been more cost effective to fly a Dash 8 the 3hr+ block time to Malta than it was to conduct the maintenance in house...

[getonittt]

Is this a long-term proposition? I saw it on the inaugural flight reviews and hoped it would be permanent, but assumed that it might have been for the publicity flights? Or is this temporary until they get some sort of Buy-On-Board infrastructure rolled out?
Standard Class on the train wouldn’t give refreshments, but First Class usually would. I guess it depends who they feel they are competing with and which passengers they want to attract?

Interesting point . I can imagine it to be permanent on the Domestic routes and perhaps the AMS , but what about the slog that will be SOT/BHX - Avignon and SOT- Toulon ?

[Flightrider]

I can't think that the CAA has got any problem provided that the AOC holder has adequate oversight of its contracted maintenance activities and the contracts are in place with the line maintenance provider - which they would both have to be as a basic matter of compliance. It's perfectly fine for an operator to contract out all of its line maintenance if it wished to - as many do.

[wanna]

It was probably cost effective due to lower taxes, cheaper labour etc. Flybe have also signed STS Birmingham to carry out some line and base maintenance. I do however, wonder what the CAA make of all of this as I know they don't exactly like too much third party work within airline ops following the Manx2 crash.

Its very common for smaller airlines to contract out even their line MX let alone MRO work. The airline (AOC) would still have a CAM, Quality etc but the actual stamp is often contracted out to a third party. STS and Medavia are both reputable organisations and both will have to hold UK CAA approvals rather than the historic EASA approvals, so the CAA arguably should now have much greater oversight. The Manx issue was to do with aircraft operators, IE manx2 had no AOC or even any quality / compliance / Safety of its own but positioned itself as having all. Each AOC that Manx2 used was then responsible for ensuring they complied etc.

The other thing to consider is whether Exeter Aerospace even wanted the business, they're not short of work, Logan, Eastern, Cityflyer, Emerald etc all going through there. ATR is the new Dash at EGTE. Its possible they turned the offer down and Flybe went looking elsewhere. Another benefit of the new business is making the best choice rather than sticking with what they knew as 'thats what we've always done'.

[bean]

Its very common for smaller airlines to contract out even their line MX let alone MRO work. The airline (AOC) would still have a CAM, Quality etc but the actual stamp is often contracted out to a third party. STS and Medavia are both reputable organisations and both will have to hold UK CAA approvals rather than the historic EASA approvals, so the CAA arguably should now have much greater oversight. The Manx issue was to do with aircraft operators, IE manx2 had no AOC or even any quality / compliance / Safety of its own but positioned itself as having all. Each AOC that Manx2 used was then responsible for ensuring they complied etc.

The other thing to consider is whether Exeter Aerospace even wanted the business, they're not short of work, Logan, Eastern, Cityflyer, Emerald etc all going through there. ATR is the new Dash at EGTE. Its possible they turned the offer down and Flybe went looking elsewhere. Another benefit of the new business is making the best choice rather than sticking with what they knew as 'thats what we've always done'.
From other sources, it was the lessors who placed this particular aircraft with Medavia prior to delivery. Flybe merely provided the crew

[RogueOne]

As others have also pointed out, it is very cost effective to fly a dash and crew to Medavia, get the work done and return the A/C compared with other MROs, and STS is just another name on the former MAEL Hangar, with may of the same engineers (many also ex-Flybe) who've worked on these aircraft for decades.

STS also has the benefit that at BHX the planes are at home base/HQ so if there's a problem and it needed management attention, then it's just over the road.. & the upside to having a physical airframe nearby in a hangar in case of AOG elsewhere on the network are not to be sniffed at.

[northsands]

Today saw an increment in the Flybe schedules, now up to seven routes requiring three airframes to fulfil, vs. the initial one-aircraft, two-route launch a fortnight ago.
LBA, LHR, AMS & EMA are now added to BHX, BHD & GLA on the network.

All 24 sectors scheduled for today were successfully completed, but looks as though they have struggled with timekeeping – only 5 out of the 24 landed on time or less than 20 minutes late, according to FR24 data.
With time loss cumulating through the day, the two aircraft with no recovery opportunity in their schedules ended up running 1.5 - 2 hours late by evening.

[andymartin]

Today saw an increment in the Flybe schedules, now up to seven routes requiring three airframes to fulfil, vs. the initial one-aircraft, two-route launch a fortnight ago.
LBA, LHR, AMS & EMA are now added to BHX, BHD & GLA on the network.

All 24 sectors scheduled for today were successfully completed, but looks as though they have struggled with timekeeping – only 5 out of the 24 landed on time or less than 20 minutes late, according to FR24 data.
With time loss cumulating through the day, the two aircraft with no recovery opportunity in their schedules ended up running 1.5 - 2 hours late by evening.

Sounds just like the old Flybe.

[ETOPS]

No sign of the MAN announcement - I wonder why :rolleyes:

[Wycombe]

With time loss cumulating through the day, the two aircraft with no recovery opportunity in their schedules ended up running 1.5 - 2 hours late by evening

I was following this, and indeed the aircraft that ended the day at LBA and BHX were very late getting there (the one that finished in BHD was only about 30 mins down). 8 sector days, so little room for recovery, as said.

Lets hope that some of this was down to "first day publicity" (various coverage of this on social) delaying turnarounds etc and that things get better quickly.

Update: this mornings 2 arrivals into LHR (from LBA and BHD) appear to be on schedule, but the first BHX-BHD sector is showing a 1hr 30min departure delay

[wanna]

I was following this, and indeed the aircraft that ended the day at LBA and BHX were very late getting there (the one that finished in BHD was only about 30 mins down). 8 sector days, so little room for recovery, as said.

Lets hope that some of this was down to "first day publicity" (various coverage of this on social) delaying turnarounds etc and that things get better quickly.

Update: this mornings 2 arrivals into LHR (from LBA and BHD) appear to be on schedule, but the first BHX-BHD sector is showing a 1hr 30min departure delay

With the best will in the world at the moment due to staff shortages all over the U.K maintaining an on time schedule is somewhat of a miracle. Whilst they have 'their own' handling at BHX elsewhere they're relying on Swissport who have struggled to ramp up staff levels to meet demand. No doubt the crews and management of flybe are trying their best to keep things on time, but when you're relying on a 3rd party handling agent who is struggling its never going to be ideal.... combine that with 8 sectors and well delays happen.

[ATNotts]

With the best will in the world at the moment due to staff shortages all over the U.K maintaining an on time schedule is somewhat of a miracle. Whilst they have 'their own' handling at BHX elsewhere they're relying on Swissport who have struggled to ramp up staff levels to meet demand. No doubt the crews and management of flybe are trying their best to keep things on time, but when you're relying on a 3rd party handling agent who is struggling its never going to be ideal.... combine that with 8 sectors and well delays happen.

That last point seems very valid, and given their past experience with (alleged) reliability issues on the Dash 8 not having a 4th machine for back up when you're push the other three aircraft so hard is perhaps surprising. But then again the new business is undoubtedly unwilling to repeat mistakes made by the former Flybe and keeping a much tighter lid on cost, and potentially having an aircraft sitting idly around means cost, unless they had an agreement to pay by the flying hour. I wonder when airframe No.4 is likely to appear.

From the post above the irony of the self handling at BHX would appear to be that this morning the BHX aircraft was the one badly delayed. who knows the cause; could have been crew sickness, missing passenger, security. I'm sure an insider knows, but if I were them I wouldn't be piping up here!

[BA318]

The social media (which cheerleaders were so keen to tell us was full of positive comments) is not looking so positive today. Reports of delays and “system problems”.

[Wycombe]

I wonder when airframe No.4 is likely to appear.

By "mid-May at the latest", apparently

Big delays today, as mentioned above, (>2.5hrs) on the aircraft that started at BHX this morning. Looks like BHX and EMA flights to AMS (due to be operated as a W from BHX by the same a/c) are being merged in an attempt to recover the schedule. Hope that doesn't mean pax are left behind.

[SWBKCB]

The social media (which cheerleaders were so keen to tell us was full of positive comments) is not looking so positive today. Reports of delays and “system problems”.

Isn't that the nature of social media? Which airlines social media pages is full happy customers offering praise and compliments?

[BA318]

Isn't that the nature of social media? Which airlines social media pages is full happy customers offering praise and compliments?

of course. I’m just highlighting how we were being told that it was overwhelmingly positive. Now things are not great it obviously reflects that.

However there are a lot of comments about various issues including very long queues for check in and website not working properly.

It was good to see that they have been giving people vouchers for delays which not all carriers do, although £4 doesn’t go very far at an airport.

[Sharklet_321]

By "mid-May at the latest", apparently

Big delays today, as mentioned above, (>2.5hrs) on the aircraft that started at BHX this morning. Looks like BHX and EMA flights to AMS (due to be operated as a W from BHX by the same a/c) are being merged in an attempt to recover the schedule. Hope that doesn't mean pax are left behind.

Probably means their load factors are low enough to be able to do it without the need to cancel any pax

[CaptainActor]

Sharklet. If you are right, its not a great endorsement of the future of the airline .Friends of mine at BACF, Easy and Ryan says their aircraft are generally full as people escape the last two years for more exotic climbs. Not sure if flybe will cope in new world dynamics.

Please don't any flybe fanatics come back with verbose comments. I, as others, are entitled to comment on positive or negative commercial viabilities.

[ATNotts]

Sharklet. If you are right, its not a great endorsement of the future of the airline .Friends of mine at BACF, Easy and Ryan says their aircraft are generally full as people escape the last two years for more exotic climbs. Not sure if flybe will cope in new world dynamics.

Please don't any flybe fanatics come back with verbose comments. I, as others, are entitled to comment on positive or negative commercial viabilities.
Not sure many of the current routes in Flybe's portfolio could be classified as exotic!!

[cavokblues]

Out of interest, if I run a dummy booking for the next day and go to reserve a seat is the seat selection page indicative of the loads or does it not show the pax who didn't want to pay to reserve a seat?

[BHX5DME]

Out of interest, if I run a dummy booking for the next day and go to reserve a seat is the seat selection page indicative of the loads or does it not show the pax who didn't want to pay to reserve a seat?
Loads are much better than I expected many 70+ pax

[Albert Hall]

I don’t think you could say the same if your username was LBA5DME from all that I’m hearing …

[cavokblues]

From what I've seen on the booking reserve a seat system BHX - BHD loads look decent.

Leeds - Heathrow look pretty poor.

[cavokblues]

It's a forum about an airline. People are allowed to talk about how the routes have started. So many sensitive souls on here.

And, tbh, I don't think many airlines spend much time 'building routes' these days. If they don't work sharpish they will pull them and put them somewhere the aircraft will make money.

Leeds - Heathrow on Tuesday has 3 people on the seat reservations. Some of the flights back on Wednesday have 0.

It's clear BHX - BHD is doing well on the loads.

But then again, I've only been pushing buttons at the pointy end for 14 years so what do I know!?

[BHX5DME]

It's a forum about an airline. People are allowed to talk about how the routes have started. So many sensitive souls on here.

And, tbh, I don't think many airlines spend much time 'building routes' these days. If they don't work sharpish they will pull them and put them somewhere the aircraft will make money.

Leeds - Heathrow on Tuesday has 3 people on the seat reservations. Some of the flights back on Wednesday have 0.

It's clear BHX - BHD is doing well on the loads.

But then again, I've only been pushing buttons at the pointy end for 14 years so what do I know!?

AMS-BHX had 78 pax Friday

[cavokblues]

That's very impressive!

[dixi188]

AMS-BHX had 78 pax Friday
For those who don't know, the Q400 has 78 seats, so that was full.

[V_2]

For those who don't know, the Q400 has 78 seats, so that was full.

and for those that don’t know AMS has had mass cancellations recently due to ground staff shortages/strikes and pax are getting rerouted via any route they can to the UK. (Not sure about Friday but today 2/3 of KLMs BHX rotations were cancelled).Great for Flybe revenue short term but I’d take any load factors with a bucket of salt

[ATNotts]

Load factors count for little, yield is everything.

[BA318]

Load factors count for little, yield is everything.

Especially when you start running multiple late flights and having cancellations which all cost money for duty of care and delay compensation.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Load factors count for little, yield is everything.
Oh come on, there is also a fairly high correlation between high loads and profitability. It is possible to have high loads and lose money but it is not something that lasts long. Unless you're Eastern Airways levels of fares, in the modern UK short haul market, you need to fill an aeroplane to make real money.

Jesus christ they've only just launched some of these routes, it's clear most of the people commenting on here have no real world aviation experience. As industry insiders know it takes time for publicity for a route to build, especially for a new airline with a limited budget. I wish certain armchair experts would just stop giving their opinions as facts or statements.
​​​​​​What "new airline" is this of which you speak? Surely not the well known and beloved flybe returning to market? Chill out, and unless you're an actual CEO, the same applies to you! :)

[Albert Hall]

Air southwest’s comment is just mad. For all I know, they could be Christine Ourneres and for all they know, I could be Willie Walsh. In that example, I am sure neither is the case but beyond that, on here - you just don’t know. To criticise armchair experts is to assume you know who anyone is here and that is a presumption too far.

[The breeze]

Load factors count for little, yield is everything.


50 passengers at £70 is better than 1 passenger at £200, therefore yield definitely not everything.

Deary me.

[BHX5DME]

50 passengers at £70 is better than 1 passenger at £200, therefore yield definitely not everything.

Deary me.

Lots of high fares next week, so yield looks good :-)Choose your flight
Belfast City (BHD) to Birmingham (BHX)

191.99 GBP
Select flight
19:50
BHD
01h 10m
21:00
BHX
flybe
BE 419

https://www.flybe.com/reservation/ibe/booking;jsessionid=5E7830B4051FB60EF444EC20CF03126F.IBE_BE_p rd_2?execution=e1s1&locale=en_US&llt=&agentId=&
Only3 seats left at this price

226.99 GBP
Select flight

[Wycombe]

AMS-BHX had 78 pax Friday
This was the day that the EMA and BHX from AMS were merged (as the schedule was about 2.5hrs down) - see earlier post above

[Alteagod]

And with the baggage charges at the gate for the valet service on trolley bags, they are probably lifting sizable revenues

[AirportPlanner1]

This was the day that the EMA and BHX from AMS were merged (as the schedule was about 2.5hrs down) - see earlier post above

So either by great fortune exactly the right number were booked or some people were left behind

[mart901]

Lots of high fares next week, so yield looks good :-)Choose your flight
Belfast City (BHD) to Birmingham (BHX)

191.99 GBP
Select flight
19:50
BHD
01h 10m
21:00
BHX
flybe
BE 419

https://www.flybe.com/reservation/ibe/booking;jsessionid=5E7830B4051FB60EF444EC20CF03126F.IBE_BE_p rd_2?execution=e1s1&locale=en_US&llt=&agentId=&
Only3 seats left at this price

226.99 GBP
Select flight
Total lack of capacity at the moment, EIR only operating 1x daily and U2 have some seats sitting at £441 one way back BHX-BFS so great time to have seats available for sale! It's possible to pay almost £800 return next week.

I may be wrong but fairly certain U2 have cut capacity from what I remember they had on sale.

[cavokblues]

Messing about on google flights and Flybe come out as an option on most of their routes aside from Leeds - Heathrow. When I put that option in it only shows BA from Manchester?

I'm not sure if google flights is a big driver of bookings but it can't be a bad thing if they fix that to get themselves showing on there. Flybe are about £80-£90 cheaper than the train next week on that city pairing.

[LGS6753]

If new FlyBe are able to take advantage of reduced capacity from competitors, and cancellations from/to AMS, it's good fortune to them. Let's hope it helps them get (re-)established sooner!

[ZULUBOY]

Yet to see BE1026 from AMS to BHX take off on time since it started. Nearly 3 hours late this evening.

[Wycombe]

Yet to see BE1026 from AMS to BHX take off on time since it started. Nearly 3 hours late this evening.
Only fair to point out that KLM have also had some multi-hour delays on the route in recent days.

[ZULUBOY]

Only fair to point out that KLM have also had some multi-hour delays on the route in recent days.

Cheers. I was only looking as I am due on it in a couple of weeks

[CaptainActor]

circa 5 hours delay on Birmingham Belfast the other night. Looks like it was cancelled in the end but not sure. lots of other delays too.

Not great reviews on trustpilot. Still (but carried over from V.1) a 81% poor rating.

I really do hope they make a success of it as they do have great crews working for them.

[bean]

circa 5 hours delay on Birmingham Belfast the other night. Looks like it was cancelled in the end but not sure. lots of other delays too.

Not great reviews on trustpilot. Still (but carried over from V.1) a 81% poor rating.

I really do hope they make a success of it as they do have great crews working for them.
The main problem is late delivery of G-ECOR from Ext. From an insider elsewhere

[Fly757X]

circa 5 hours delay on Birmingham Belfast the other night. Looks like it was cancelled in the end but not sure. lots of other delays too.

Not great reviews on trustpilot. Still (but carried over from V.1) a 81% poor rating.

I really do hope they make a success of it as they do have great crews working for them.

BHX-BHD went eventually. I was on it at the time. G-JECY had gone tech on arrival from BHD earlier that day.

[willy wombat]

I think it’s far too early to judge Flybe version 1.5 (to split the difference between those who insist it’s a new airline and those who insist it isn’t). Let’s see how things are in a few months.

[ZULUBOY]

The main problem is late delivery of G-ECOR from Ext. From an insider elsewhere

Looks like this landed at BHX from Exeter earlier today

[Wycombe]

Looks like this landed at BHX from Exeter earlier today

First revenue service should be to BHD at 1810. The other 3 airframes are running near to schedule today, which is better than yesterday when JECX didn't move from BHD all day.

[ATNotts]

The spare aircraft should help with punctuality and reliability. With 20/20 hindsight perhaps not starting some routes until 'OR was delivered or chartering in an extra airframe might have been sensible, though of course adding cost.

[RogueOne]

The spare aircraft should help with punctuality and reliability. With 20/20 hindsight perhaps not starting some routes until 'OR was delivered or chartering in an extra airframe might have been sensible, though of course adding cost.

Best to learn to walk before you can run. Especially as a brand new airline!

[Albert Hall]

I heard they were out a couple of weeks ago trying to charter additional aircraft for the whole summer, looking for E190/ATR72. May be wrong, but I'd guess there probably wasn't anything out there - business has come booming back for most ACMI providers.

[Wycombe]

First revenue service should be to BHD at 1810.

Looks like this didn't happen today. The current schedule needs 2 a/c at this time at BHX (one arrives from AMS at the same time - 1810 - as another is needed for scheduled departure to BHD), so the departure to BHD was operated by ECOE with approx 40min delay after it arrived from AMS. The schedule needed 4 a/c from the day these services started (28th Apr) really.

[Matt995]

Looks like this didn't happen today. The current schedule needs 2 a/c at this time at BHX (one arrives from AMS at the same time - 1810 - as another is needed for scheduled departure to BHD), so the departure to BHD was operated by ECOE with approx 40min delay after it arrived from AMS. The schedule needed 4 a/c from the day these services started (28th Apr) really.

Actually the BHX based aircraft is planned to do BHX-BHD-BHX 07:00-09:50, then BHX-AMS-EMA-AMS-BHX 10:25-18:10, then BHX-BHD-BHX 18:10-21:00, only issue is they have messed up the flight timings on the final BHD flight, and expect the plane to come in from AMS & turn around to BHD in 0 minutes!! Realistically the BHD flight should be 18:40-21:30, i'm sure they will eventually reschedule it!!!

[willy wombat]

Why would it take a dash 8 400 1hr 50mins block BHXBHD?

[SealinkBF]

Why would it take a dash 8 400 1hr 50mins block BHXBHD?

Timetable padding?

[Wycombe]

Why would it take a dash 8 400 1hr 50mins block BHXBHD?
I don't see that in the above, 2hrs50min was quoted for a BHX-BHD-BHX roundtrip. Scheduled timings are 1hr15min (out) and 1hr5min (return), with 30min turnround

[Hearmenow]

Why would it take a dash 8 400 1hr 50mins block BHXBHD?

Perhaps it was following an ATR?

[Wycombe]

Looks like ops have settled down a bit over the last few days now that 4 a/c are in service. Most flights on or near to schedule.

Some high fares on BHX-BHD and a few flights showing sold out on this route over the next week or so, so (just based on publicly available info) that route looks to be doing ok. Others less so, particularly LBA-LHR. Codeshares are apparently "work in progress".

[LTNman]

Inaugural flight Leeds to Heathrow where the security queue at Leeds was longer than the flight.

https://youtu.be/YTpgVzJIPf8

[compton3bravo]

I fear that goody bag will become a collector's item in the not too distant future.

[Asturias56]

" where the security queue at Leeds was longer than the flight."

that's the sort of thing that murders intercity operations in the UK

But hey-ho - I saw with my own eyes a Flybe aircraft going into Birmingham on Friday - so I have to believe they're back now

[BA318]

Lots of delays and cancellations today. What is going on? The morning seems ok but the 13:25 BHD-BHX ended up going at 18:14. One of the Heathrow and a Leeds flight from BHD were cancelled. The second BHD-LBA due out at 16:55 actually left at 21:49. Two of the LHR-LBA flights were also cancelled.

Is it a staffing issue or tech planes? G-ECOC operated in the air for all of 2:44hrs today yet the above flights were cancelled and delayed.

[davidjohnson6]

Lots of delays and cancellations today. What is going on? The morning seems ok but the 13:25 BHD-BHX ended up going at 18:14. One of the Heathrow and a Leeds flight from BHD were cancelled. The second BHD-LBA due out at 16:55 actually left at 21:49. Two of the LHR-LBA flights were also cancelled.

Is it a staffing issue or tech planes? G-ECOC operated in the air for all of 2:44hrs today yet the above flights were cancelled and delayed.
Does the high number of Leeds flights being cancelled suggest that routes which touch Leeds are perhaps the cancellations which will inconvenience fewest passengers.... i.e. Leeds is seeing significantly lower load factors than other Flybe airports ?

[jamestkirk]

The LBA to LHR is at the very least aeronautical folly.

[crewmeal]

LBA - LHR seemed to work really well for British Midland back in the old days.

[jamestkirk]

Like the quality over the years of a Sara Lee frozen Black Forest Gateaux, times change.
As a small practical example. This Fridays service at 18.45 has three people who have allocated their seats. No others. So looks like a near empty flight, which without question looks like a financial loss sector.
They must have quite a lot of EU261 claims in since starting as well.

[BA318]

Like the quality over the years of a Sara Lee frozen Black Forest Gateaux, times change.
As a small practical example. This Fridays service at 18.45 has three people who have allocated their seats. No others. So looks like a near empty flight, which without question looks like a financial loss sector.
They must have quite a lot of EU261 claims in since starting as well.

Indeed. Trains are much smoother and quicker now and airports are much slower and restrictive. And a couple of late or cancelled flights will kill the demand from the few people who chose to use it. Unless they get a EU261 claim each time then it could turn out to be quite profitable 😂

But looking at yesterday’s ops a good chunk would appear eligible for compensation probably wiping out the days profits if there were any at all.

[anothertyke]

LBA - LHR seemed to work really well for British Midland back in the old days.

But it was always two thirds interlining. They have to get the codeshares going for it to have a chance. Or a rail strike......

[Wycombe]

Lots of delays and cancellations today. What is going on? The morning seems ok but the 13:25 BHD-BHX ended up going at 18:14. One of the Heathrow and a Leeds flight from BHD were cancelled. The second BHD-LBA due out at 16:55 actually left at 21:49. Two of the LHR-LBA flights were also cancelled.

Is it a staffing issue or tech planes? G-ECOC operated in the air for all of 2:44hrs today yet the above flights were cancelled and delayed.

I have no insight as to what any issues are, but things seem to be running better today.

They currently have 4 a/c in service, but not all of them are needed all day at present.

However, the next route starts (AMS to BHD and LHR) are this weekend, and I read elsewhere that at lease one more airframe introduction is due this week.
An source on the inside says they plan to have 17/18 airframes in service by the end of August!

The first 2 LHR-AMS flights this Sunday appear to be sold out, and there are quite high fares on the route (in both directions) on various dates over the next few weeks. Less so on the BHD route.

[BA318]

I have no insight as to what any issues are, but things seem to be running better today.

They currently have 4 a/c in service, but not all of them are needed all day at present.

However, the next route starts (AMS to BHD and LHR) are this weekend, and I read elsewhere that at lease one more airframe introduction is due this week.
An source on the inside says they plan to have 17/18 airframes in service by the end of August!

The first 2 LHR-AMS flights this Sunday appear to be sold out, and there are quite high fares on the route (in both directions) on various dates over the next few weeks. Less so on the BHD route.

Not sure it was that much better. The evening BHD-LBA went out over 3hrs late. The evening LBA-LHR cancelled again too. There was also a BHX-BHD cancelled.

[Wycombe]

Not sure it was that much better. The evening BHD-LBA went out over 3hrs late. The evening LBA-LHR cancelled again too. There was also a BHX-BHD cancelled.

Yes, that all happened after I posted. One thing I have noticed is long turnarounds, which sometimes cause the schedule to slip quite a lot during the day? AMS seems to be the worst.

Might be one reason why things go awry when the a/c are scheduled for 8 or 9 sectors (which I've seen on some days) although I know that should work. Handlers struggling for (people) resource perhaps?

[jamestkirk]

The customer reviews are as bad as Flybe v.1. Still a 81% Bad on trustpilot. Yes, I know it’s a. Average of v.1 as well but no improvement. The question is, would you trust them to get you there/on time if you had a connection? I would say, no. Leeds to London can be done on a train for £30 and in 2hrs 15mins. I have looked at a couple of Friday evening flights and they look about a fifth full. Anyway, let’s see how this all plays out

[davidjohnson6]

To be fair to Flybe... AMS airport seems to be in a general state of chaos, and has been for several weeks. Flybe delays at AMS are very likely not Flybe's fault

[Wycombe]

To be fair to Flybe... AMS airport seems to be in a general state of chaos, and has been for several weeks. Flybe delays at AMS are very likely not Flybe's fault
Indeed lots of CityHopper flights running with big delays over the last few weeks also.

[Local Variation]

Sales & Marketing Rule #23

Never let the facts get in the way of Customer perception.

[Flightrider]

TrustPilot is a lightning conductor for angry customers and lacks balance - most obviously by declining to remove reviews which are clearly suspect or from people who aren't even users of whatever service. Its name implies otherwise, but everything I've seen is that it's amongst the least trustworthy of the many on-line review sites.

[BA318]

Tonight seems to have gone a bit better than previous days this week. For the first time in four days the evening LBA-LHR has operated and only fairly minor delays on other services.

As to customer perception, repeated cancellations and delays won’t do any favours. Repeated comments on social media seem to be about lack of communication with rolling delays. As you say most people only comment if it’s a bad service but more people read them than leave them so the perception grows. Obviously if things go well then perhaps the customer leaves happier than they thought they would which is a plus.

[ATNotts]

Flybe are going to need to ensure that they have at least one additional aircraft available before they embark on BHD and LHR service from Amsterdam otherwise they will come seriously unstuck.

[Wycombe]

Flybe are going to need to ensure that they have at least one additional aircraft available before they embark on BHD and LHR service from Amsterdam otherwise they will come seriously unstuck.

One would imagine they know this!

See my post #209 above - info received suggested that a/c no.5 (FLBA) will be entering service this week.
No evidence that this has happened yet though

[ATNotts]

One would imagine they know this!

See my post #209 above - info received suggested that a/c no.5 (FLBA) will be entering service this week.
No evidence that this has happened yet though
Problem is they failed to get a/c 4 into service when 'phase two' started. Realistically they need a spare airframe to ensure there is coverage when the sh1t hits the fan.

[BA318]

With the AMS issues this could really become a mess if the fleet is stretched too far. There’s already delays most evenings and late running AMS flights won’t help.

[jamestkirk]

Air southwest. I did caveat very clearly about v.1. No, not angry postings when it went bust. Read the posts on trustpilot as ther are 1110 of them. The public do not need to know about airline ops. They pay gor a service and expect it. Poor planning etc is not an excuse. Weather, slots are and most passengers understand that. The bad 81% is a poll of passengers and most polls use a couple or a few thousand as a trend. Check out yougov to see that.
you may be a Flybe fanatic but don’t let it blinker you..

Those are the facts you seek.

[Atlantic Explorer]

Blimey, it’s beginning to sound like Flybe v1 all over again! Was considering using them a few times early summer but I think I will look for an alternative.

[willy wombat]

Mind you, who would you use at the moment? BA and EZY still having loads of short notice cancellations. Trains possibly going on strike. For UK domestics the only company you don’t seem to hear lots of problems with is Loganair. So I think I will either be using them or jumping in my car.

[euromanxdude]

Mind you, who would you use at the moment? BA and EZY still having loads of short notice cancellations. Trains possibly going on strike. For UK domestics the only company you don’t seem to hear lots of problems with is Loganair. So I think I will either be using them or jumping in my car.


And Loganair are no better. Especially out of IOM. Was going to book day trip to London using their new LCY route but they’ve canx the early rotation due to no crew.

[Wycombe]

And Loganair are no better. Especially out of IOM. Was going to book day trip to London using their new LCY route but they’ve canx the early rotation due to no crew.
Over the last week there have been a few multi-hour delays on their evening flights in and out of SOU also.

There are industry-wide problems. TUI in the UK, for another example, have been having an absolute mare this week (plenty of discussion on the relevant thread).

[jamestkirk]

Just to reflect what wombat an euromanxdude have sad. I am intrigued how the industry has got to a crew shortage. My only observation on this is that I know experienced pilots who just want to get out of the industry and doubt this, I assume, would not create a shortage on its own. The only tangible information I have is th3 recent survey where 49% of pilots would not recommend the industry to new starters. Didn’t give reasons though.

[Haven't a clue]

euromanxdude

Manx Radio reported Loganair saying the cancellation of two weeks of the early rotation was "because the airline is facing high levels of Covid-related absence amongst its Isle of Man-based aircrew".

The flights resume next week.

[euromanxdude]

euromanxdude

Manx Radio reported Loganair saying the cancellation of two weeks of the early rotation was "because the airline is facing high levels of Covid-related absence amongst its Isle of Man-based aircrew".

The flights resume next week.

Cheers

No help to me now sadly.

[davidjohnson6]

I've been looking at Flybe on FR24, and there seems to be a non-trivial number of flights being cancelled. Are these all due to unpredictable things happening on the day - e.g. weather or large numbers of crew catching Covid - or are these predictable in advance or even (whisper it quietly lest the CAA hear) due to poor commercial loads ?

If these cancellations are predictable, are notifications going out on the day of travel, or are pax being notified in advance (i.e. with at least 24 hours notice) ?

[hec7or]

Just to reflect what wombat an euromanxdude have sad. I am intrigued how the industry has got to a crew shortage. My only observation on this is that I know experienced pilots who just want to get out of the industry and doubt this, I assume, would not create a shortage on its own. The only tangible information I have is th3 recent survey where 49% of pilots would not recommend the industry to new starters. Didn’t give reasons though.
Look, I am an LTC flying B737s, my Mrs was an IRE/TRE back in the day on BAC1-11s, my best mate was an F4 jock in the RAF... none of us have our kids joining this industry. fact.

[SWBKCB]

there seems tobe a non-trivial number of flights being cancelled

Bit vague. A few details may help people give explanations, especially as FR24 isn't always the most reliable source of planned flights.

[BA318]

There have been lots of cancellations on the LBA-LHR route.

Also it’s interesting on social media there are plenty of comments about the old Flybe trick of baggage charges for hand luggage. People complaining they flew one way with no charge and then told the same bag is too big on the way back.

[Jamesair1]

I read that Flybe have signed a lease for 5 additional aircraft.....first aircraft delivery imminent.

[DC3 Dave]

I read that Flybe have signed a lease for 5 additional aircraft.....first aircraft delivery imminent.

https://www.ttgmedia.com/news/news/flybe-expands-fleet-after-sealing-lease-agreement-34527

[ZULUBOY]

There have been lots of cancellations on the LBA-LHR route.

Also it’s interesting on social media there are plenty of comments about the old Flybe trick of baggage charges for hand luggage. People complaining they flew one way with no charge and then told the same bag is too big on the way back.

Quite a few were charged for their bags on my flight from BHX to AMS on Saturday. Some of the bags looked smaller than my rucksack

[Wycombe]

I read that Flybe have signed a lease for 5 additional aircraft.....first aircraft delivery imminent.

First of these was apparently ECOE which is already in service, with another expected shortly.

The 4 current aircraft are now pretty-much flying all day every day (weekdays anyway) as far as I tell. Most delays appear to be through AMS
(where things are so bad that KLM stopped selling tickets for 5 days up to today)

[BA318]

First of these was apparently ECOE which is already in service, with another expected shortly.

The 4 current aircraft are now pretty-much flying all day every day (weekdays anyway) as far as I tell. Most delays appear to be through AMS
(where things are so bad that KLM stopped selling tickets for 5 days up to today)

I’m not sure the delays are just AMS related. Some planes which haven’t touch AMS have still be flying with long delays and not to mention the cancellations. G-JECX for example hasn’t been to AMS in the past 7 days but still incurred big delays on 4 out of the past 7 days.

[mart901]

In what way am I a "Flybe fanatic" in relation to that post I called for a bit of balance as others have said Trustpilot is not accurate nor is facebook or twitter. The only way you would get a real balance is to ask passengers when deboarding, the same applies to any other airline. You've clearly not read my post properly and made yourself look a bit silly.

Trustpilot. Right. Take a look at BE's competition, BA sitting on 1.4 and U2 sitting on 1.5 and the amount of reviews would blow BE's out of the water.
On the subject of AMS as has been said take a look - KLM are actively discouraging bookings at peak due to the mess there and when it comes to cancellations take a look at BA, EZY and TUI.........

[Wycombe]

......and multi-hour delays every day on Emerald, Loganair, Blue Islands, Aurigny....not on all flights, but on at least some every day, the same as Flybe 2.0. Everyone is struggling, for all the reasons that have been well publicised.

[jamestkirk]

Do some research on trustpilot. apart from the criminal element, it is well regarded. Your feelings on this are not fact and the facts don't care about your opinions.

[RogueOne]

Children squabbling over trustpilot reviews.... I've seen it all now. Anyone can post there at any time and say what they like. It's like the fake review scandal on Amazon!! hahaha. Forgetting 90% of reviews on there are from Flybe v1.

On another note, the majority delays and cancellations of the last couple of weeks have been due to problems in and out of AMS... a/c have taken multiple hour delays in and out because of slot restrictions. You only have to open your eyes and see 2-4hr queues to just get through security at Dublin, Manchester, Birmingham, Amsterdam... all airlines are struggling, but by all means pick a narrative that points your bent finger at 'same old flybe'.

[BA318]

Children squabbling over trustpilot reviews.... I've seen it all now. Anyone can post there at any time and say what they like. It's like the fake review scandal on Amazon!! hahaha. Forgetting 90% of reviews on there are from Flybe v1.

On another note, the majority delays and cancellations of the last couple of weeks have been due to problems in and out of AMS... a/c have taken multiple hour delays in and out because of slot restrictions. You only have to open your eyes and see 2-4hr queues to just get through security at Dublin, Manchester, Birmingham, Amsterdam... all airlines are struggling, but by all means pick a narrative that points your bent finger at 'same old flybe'.

I literally posted a plane which hasn’t been near AMS in a week and it still had multiple long delays on 4 out of 7 days. Of course everyone is dealing with issues but at the same time they are not new companies trying to establish themselves in a highly competitive market where there are plenty of alternatives.

of the AMS flights most have departed AMS on time or less than an hour late apart from a couple of the past week AMS-BHX which were approximately (give or take) 2hrs late. How has that screwed the ops across the network for the past two weeks?

[Wycombe]

How has that screwed the ops across the network for the past two weeks?

Ops are not screwed across the network, most flights are on-time or within 15-20 mins of being so, but AMS is having an impact, as well as other airports in the current network, at various times.

Emerald is also a new operation (and another which looks very much like the old one) who seem to be suffering similar delays at various times, although none of their a/c go anywhere AMS as far as I know.

These new operations still have to get their pax through the same security, ground handling, air traffic delays, weather etc, so very hard to establish/differentiate in those circumstances.

[davidjohnson6]

Emerald may not go anywhere near Amsterdam... but they have a very heavy dependence on Dublin, which has been seeing its own issues
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0531/1302199-dublin-airport-daa/
https://www.euronews.com/travel/2022/05/31/hellish-queues-outside-dublin-airport-in-the-early-hours-as-passengers-try-not-to-miss-fli

[ATNotts]

I have just this minute glanced at all the aircraft in the Flybe fleet to see how today is going. It might surprise some to hear that all the aircraft are operating reasonably to time (within 30 minutes) which given the state of air travel at the moment, and that they are working the four units they have bloody hard is pretty reasonable. There is but one exception showing at the moment - that is G-ECOE on BE1334 AMS / BHD which is carrying a long delay.

Of course that doesn't fit the narrative of some on this thread, but actually when you look back over the last few days, apart from for yesterday which looks to have been a bit of a mare, it really hasn't been too bad in the wider scheme of things. That said there is always room for improvement.

[jamestkirk]

Rogue one.

who has forgotten 90% are from Flybe v.1 to be fair to air southwest, we both acknowledged that.

you call us children
I call you shoddy. Next time try reading the posts, you may learn something. But I won’t hold my breath.

[RogueOne]

Rogue one.

who has forgotten 90% are from Flybe v.1 to be fair to air southwest, we both acknowledged that.

you call us children
I call you shoddy. Next time try reading the posts, you may learn something. But I won’t hold my breath.

I read all the posts thanks boss... and still TP was being brought up. Maybe don't take everything so personally...

:}:}​​​​​​​:}​​​​​​​:}​​​​​​​:}​​​​​​​ Shoddy. That's a new one, I'm going to need a mental health check after that broadside. Thanks Capt!!

[Loofa]

Tried the new Flybe this week with a total of four flights. All delayed, ranging from 45 mins to 2hr 54m on tonight’s LBA-LHR. All in all not great, one delay was Late inbound from Amsterdam, the rest staff/system/paperwork related. Total shambles at Leeds tonight with zero information relating to the rolling delay and only two Swissair staff on duty meaning they could only board one flight at a time, plus they had a cancelled TUI to deal with. The departure board didn’t even acknowledge a delay until 90 mins after departure time. Managed to get to Heathrow just before compensation would have kicked in! Can’t see me going near Flybe again for a while, their schedule seems to be totally unrealistic at the moment.

[Wycombe]

Tried the new Flybe this week with a total of four flights. All delayed, ranging from 45 mins to 2hr 54m on tonight’s LBA-LHR. All in all not great, one delay was Late inbound from Amsterdam, the rest staff/system/paperwork related. Total shambles at Leeds tonight with zero information relating to the rolling delay and only two Swissair staff on duty meaning they could only board one flight at a time, plus they had a cancelled TUI to deal with. The departure board didn’t even acknowledge a delay until 90 mins after departure time. Managed to get to Heathrow just before compensation would have kicked in! Can’t see me going near Flybe again for a while, their schedule seems to be totally unrealistic at the moment.

It seems to me the problems they have are the same as many other airlines currently (including regionals such as Loganair and Emerald, who have had similar delays on some flights over the last few days), but are exacerbated by the size of the schedule they are trying to operate with only 4 a/c, which currently therefore include some 8 and 9 sector days.

Apparently, there are further aircraft due to be delivered (including at least one last week) that have not happened/been delayed, which is contributing further to the current poor performance (I reckon about 50% are being delayed overall - 2 out of 3 of this morning's first flights are on time, but things generally slip during the day).

[Albert Hall]

This morning’s LBA-LHR looks to have diverted into Birmingham for some reason. It has to be said that this doesn’t seem to be a route blessed with good fortune.

[willy wombat]

I am curious as to why Flybe feel the need to work the aircraft so hard with consequent problems and delays. Traditionally you either have expensive aircraft with low docs and these you have to work hard. Alternatively you have cheap aircraft, with possibly higher docs, and these you can work less hard and concentrate on using them at the peaks. Given that Flybe must have got these dash 8s for peanuts (and if not, questions must be asked) they should have the luxury of being able to economically operate a more relaxed schedule and be the UK’s most punctual airline. Now that would be a USP.

[BA318]

Seems like KLM and Schiphol are struggling so much that they're flying empty planes back home, and not bringing the passengers because the airport can't cope. :uhoh:

If the flag carrier is struggling at home base, it's understandable that all airlines including Flybe are taking a hit on delays and cancellations messing with the schedule.

Schiphol is somehow overwhelmed, add in maintenance planned for this weekend and strong winds from the North... and everything grinds to a halt.

Indeed KLM are taking a tough time atm. But I would imagine they can afford to pay the EU241 compensation bill. But on some days the delays on Flybe must be more than wiping out any profits. Any Flybe don’t have good years savings or the possibility of the state stepping in to help them out if it gets too tough.

I agree with the above post. Drop a daily rotation, run an on time schedule and press release it for some cheap/free coverage and get known as the only UK carrier operating on time.

[TartinTon]

Schiphol is in trouble because it is supposed to have a ground staff of 1400 and has a current shortfall of 600 with only 200 in the training pipeline. This will not be a short-term issue.

[ZULUBOY]

I was on delayed Flybe flight from AMS to BHX yesterday evening. I was checking the plane all day and it was fine on the BHX-BHD-BHX leg but pilot said they then couldn't get into AMS and so had to sit at BHX and wait. We were only an hour and an half late in the end which wasn't too bad given it had to the EMA leg first. Virtually all flights into Schipol were showing as delayed yesterday.

The queues were fine at Schipol when we got there but I think that was due to the time of day. I saw horror stories on Twitter when we were on our train from Berlin about people queuing for hours in the morning

[Wycombe]

....ambitious, and very reliant on aircraft serviceability! The current operation is really thinly spread, with the 4 aircraft they have at the moment nightstopping in BHD, BHX, LBA and AMS.

FR24 suggests that none of the other soon expected airframes (apparently FLBA, FLBB and JECP) have moved in the last couple of weeks.

[SWBKCB]

Because the Flybe schedules requires 6 aircraft but due to delays in maintenance bringing aircraft back into service they're currently having to work the 4 aircraft they have harder.

On the other hand, it has been stated here that with their prior knowledge of the a/c history's they were getting the pick of the bunch, and it's not as if they didn't have plenty of time before the deferred launch to get things sorted.

[c52]

( Norse Atlantic have a fleet of 787s all painted up with nowhere to go yet )

[Atlantic Explorer]

It's nothing to do with picking & choosing the best. Part of it is down to all of them being in storage for two years, all the systems are meant to be tested and operated on a regular basis, hydraulics for example to prevent seals from perishing but this isn't always possible due to other reasons. Exeter is well known for doing a very good job and won't allow aircraft back into service if licenced engineers are not happy with the state of the aircraft. Another issue particularly for the Dash 8 is that the parts have to be shipped across from Canada which are currently being delayed or taking longer than usual due to supply chain issues.

So again it's partly out of Flybe's hands, In regards to sorting things out before their launch its a fine balancing act between getting the aircraft in service for the launch but not having them sitting around doing nothing for ages (which to my knowledge for any new airline never happens Air Southwest for example only started with 2 aircraft, added a third and then eventually scaled up to leasing a further 2)

All of which could have been reasonably foreseen by any diligent operator and accounted for when scheduling the airframes.

The expression ‘trying to run before you can walk’ springs to mind!

[Albert Hall]

Apparently it is no coincidence that two of the earliest aircraft into the fleet are two which sustained damage in previous incidents in Flybe. Although they are fixed (of course!) it does suggest that there’s a two way street here with the leasing companies and the new airline hasn’t just had a completely free pick of the bunch.