TWR providing APP control

[Ross182]

Hello,
Im working on my bachelor thesis and want to know if anyone know a place, where TWR provide an approach control (either whole app or in form of director). I can think of some Polish airfields such is Lublin (TWR controls traffic up to FL135).

Thank you
​

[poldek77]

I have seen several aerodromes like that in Turkey: LTAJ, LTAY, LTCA, LTCB, LTCD, LTCE, LTCF, LTCI, LTCK, LTCN, LTCO, LTCR, LTCS, LTCP, LTCT, LTCU, LTCV, LTCW, LTFD, LTFG...

[Bright-Ling]

Biggin Hill (EGKB) ?
Gloucester (EGBJ) ?

[Equivocal]

You probably need to make a distinction between a procedural approach control service and one using surveillance equipment.. Your reference to Director suggests that you are thinking about a surveillance service. A procedural control service, can usually be provided more easily although those with the necessary qualifications and competence are less commonly found compared with 'the old days'!

[chevvron]

Biggin Hill (EGKB) ?
Gloucester (EGBJ) ?
Cranfield (EGTC)
Woodvale (EGOW)
Perth (EGPT)

[Bright-Ling]

You probably need to make a distinction between a procedural approach control service and one using surveillance equipment.

True, but it does say APP, not APS

[dixi188]

Used to fly night flights into Bournemouth, 0300 ish. The controller would do the approach control from the radar room and when we were established on the ILS they would go upstairs and do the tower control. (only one person on duty).

[2 sheds]

Used to fly night flights into Bournemouth, 0300 ish. The controller would do the approach control from the radar room and when we were established on the ILS they would go upstairs and do the tower control. (only one person on duty).

They certainly should not have been doing that. Perhaps they had approval to do it from the aerodrome control room, otherwise....

2 s

[mike current]

Cranfield (EGTC)
Woodvale (EGOW)
Perth (EGPT)
There's no ATC at Perth. It's air-ground

[terrain safe]

They certainly should not have been doing that. Perhaps they had approval to do it from the aerodrome control room, otherwise....

2 s

Originally the radar room was about 5 steps down from the VCR and behind a curtain. It was done this way for quite a few years.

[Equivocal]

True, but it does say APP, not APSSorry, I think it's just me getting old, in my day APP was approach generally or approach procedural, and approach radar was APR. But the reference to Director suggests it's not just procedural that is of interest.

Don't know what the state of play is in the UK these days although the CAA was not keen on the idea of providing a surveillance service whilst also providing TWR when the idea was first mooted, I recall that there were limits on traffic (one at a time) so that the controller would not be providing both services at the same time. I think that, like many licensing 'policies' of the day, such limitations were relaxed quite quickly in certain circumstances - but, as I say, I've no idea how relaxed they've become.

For what it's worth, the last time I was at Charleroi I think there was a single controller doing both aerodrome control and vectoring inbounds but I don't know if that was the normal mode of operation.

[sthomson]

Yes, there are several TWR's in New Zealand that provide both an aerodrome control and procedural approach control service. NZNV, NZDN, NZNS, NZNP, NZNR, NZGS.

[Gonzo]

They certainly should not have been doing that. Perhaps they had approval to do it from the aerodrome control room, otherwise....

2 s

Didn’t the night shift ATCO at Bournemouth fall over and break a leg one night while on duty about 20 years ago or am I imagining that?

[chevvron]

Didn’t the night shift ATCO at Bournemouth fall over and break a leg one night while on duty about 20 years ago or am I imagining that?
I remember a case like that; don't know if it was Bournemouth (may have been Coventry) but the guy who fell downstairs couldn't move and it wasn't until an aircraft called and got no reply that the pilot managed to contact somebody at the airport and asked them to find out what had happened.
Apart from that, in the '70s no airfields in the north of Scotland had radar so the tower controller operated TWR and APP bandboxed; FISOs hadn't been invented so the tels officer was supposed to be trained to provide aerodrome information.

[Ross182]

Sorry not beeing specific and missleaded with the APP service. I ment APS... So TWR providing APS.. Radar services too.

[chevvron]

Sorry not beeing specific and missleaded with the APP service. I ment APS... So TWR providing APS.. Radar services too.
Can be done in the UK under 'low traffic' conditions but I don't know the details as it happened after I retired in 2008.

[mike current]

Apart from that, in the '70s no airfields in the north of Scotland had radar so the tower controller operated TWR and APP bandboxed; FISOs hadn't been invented so the tels officer was supposed to be trained to provide aerodrome information.
Airfields in the North of Scotland still don't have radar, with the exception of Sumburgh and Inverness.

[Morris542]

Hello,
Im working on my bachelor thesis and want to know if anyone know a place, where TWR provide an approach control (either whole app or in form of director). I can think of some Polish airfields such is Lublin (TWR controls traffic up to FL135).

Thank you
​

I'm sure the chap in Toulouse was doing both last time I was there (that was before COVID though so might not be the case now). Wasn't much traffic around and can't remember much other than our surprise that he was doing everything at quite a large airport.

[kontrolor]

LJPZ, LJMB, LJCE

[chevvron]

I'm sure the chap in Toulouse was doing both last time I was there (that was before COVID though so might not be the case now). Wasn't much traffic around and can't remember much other than our surprise that he was doing everything at quite a large airport.
Just goes to show what an experienced ATCO can do.

[exlatccatsa]

Aberdeen EGPD provide a radar approach service from the Tower (RITT) in quieter periods and have been doing so for about 4 years.

[chevvron]

Aberdeen EGPD provide a radar approach service from the Tower (RITT) in quieter periods and have been doing so for about 4 years.
Several airports have been doing it for some years usually with 'light' traffic, but only when there is an Aerodrome Traffic Monitor (ATM) and the controller is current on both TWR and APS but I'm not sure what other 'conditions' are required by SARG.

[HershamBoys]

In the UK SARG has granted units authorisations to provide combined ADI and APS using an ATM on the basis of the local procedure passing through the unit SMS and then being subjected to SARG for approval. There usually are quite severe constraints on the level of traffic (in all its senses) that could present during the period that the procedure is in use. Ergo, units proposing to adopt these procedures need to convince the regulator that there is minimal possibility of unforeseen traffic overloading the ATCO.

[nixa]

This is standard procedure in all smaller airports in Sweden, and even in some bigger ones at certain times. Typically there is only one position that handles both TWR and APS, as well as ground vehicles and the random phone call as well. It's fun but sometimes a bit hectic when you are vectoring multiple aircraft and doing all TWR things at the same time.

[2 sheds]

And why does the procedure get considered by the unit SMS in the first place? The perceived need to save on staffing and money. So the required end result is known before engineering the justification.
Interesting that MATS Pt 1 now specifies that Aerodrome controllers shall maintain as far as practicable, a continuous watch by visual observation on all flight operations on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome as well as vehicles and personnel on the manoeuvring area.

2 s

[HershamBoys]

The introduction of these procedures are not always financially driven. They make sense if you are a remote airport that is waiting for your last returning flight prior to close of play, when the only movements likely to occur around the airport are associated with that flight, and you can use the ATM to vector, the ATM usually being driven by the same RDPS as the main radar displays. It saves having excess staff hanging around late when they could be in the bar. By devising a procedure, auditing it against the SMS, gaining regulatory approval, conducting appropriate training, and subjecting it to post-implementation operational QC, you legitimise what might have possibly been going on before.....:oh:

[chevvron]

Interesting that MATS Pt 1 now specifies that Aerodrome controllers shall maintain as far as practicable, a continuous watch by visual observation on all flight operations on and in the vicinity of an aerodrome as well as vehicles and personnel on the manoeuvring area.

2 s
Does that still apply at London City where the controllers cannot maintain a continuous watch by visual observation of the aerodrome, vehicles and personnel.

[Equivocal]

Come on chevvron, you know how the system works, if there's something in the MATS Pt 2 it can vary the Pt 1 rules. But what's the problem, remote tower technology means that direct observation by the controller is not possible, but a significant degree of visual observation, to the extent available with the technology, is entirely practicable.

[2 sheds]

Does that still apply at London City where the controllers cannot maintain a continuous watch by visual observation of the aerodrome, vehicles and personnel.

See MATS 1 - do keep up, double-O seven!

Anything is now possible, given appropriate weasel words, SMS justification and regulatory approval (i.e. letting the ANSP carry the can).

2 s

[HershamBoys]

It is 'observation', but not in the traditional sense. I am taken with the idea of having traffic I'm managing from a traditional or virtual VCR labelled with flight callsign and height readout. Having seen some in-service systems and others demonstrated at ATS events, the only thing that I might be slightly uncertain about is managing the visual circuit, especially if the virtual VCR is not wrap around 360° . If you just have instrument arrivals and departures, a combination of the ATM, SMR, and virtual reality in a location that is not necessarily a traditional VCR could be good, especially if it closer to the airport confectionery outlet, or even in your spare bedroom at home and a resilient broadband service...... oh

[bdpj]

In Belgium (at regional aerodromes EBAW, EBCI, EBLG, EBOS), the TWR controllers provide aerodrome and approach radar control