2 Blackhawks down in Utah, no injuries [Archive]

zambonidriver

23rd Feb 2022, 07:12

A protracted hover before landing in severe blowing snow is dangerous enough. Landing two in close formation in white out conditions really isn’t a good idea.
Indeed - my first thought looking at the video before things got messy. Any idea what they were trying to accomplish ?

[email protected]

23rd Feb 2022, 08:24

Any idea what they were trying to accomplish ? Practising snow landings for Ukraine??? Poorly executed whatever it was.

212man

23rd Feb 2022, 08:47

Reminiscent of the German Police 155/332 collision a few years ago.

ShyTorque

23rd Feb 2022, 09:01

212, that’s exactly what went through my mind, too. Far safer to go in as singletons, so that the first aircraft on the ground becomes your visual reference, having hopefully cleared a lot of the loose snow.

But then a zero speed, or slow forward speed landing is a far better option if the slope allows it.

Bell_ringer

23rd Feb 2022, 09:05

Mighty nice of the US military to help keep Sirkorsky's revenue numbers up. At this rate they may knock Kenya's training record into second place.

Gordy

23rd Feb 2022, 22:57

Too soon.....?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x455/rcnqn0i06gj81_1232f88783f7532aeed1459e461243a1fe5d434d.jpg

Sir HC

23rd Feb 2022, 23:52

Too soon.....?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/713x455/rcnqn0i06gj81_1232f88783f7532aeed1459e461243a1fe5d434d.jpg
Hahahahahhah. That's brilliant Gordy.

roscoe1

24th Feb 2022, 04:17

It's one thing to hit brown/ white-out situations at new unfamiliar LZs during a life or death mission or other mitigating circumstance. Unless landing on clean concrete, looking out for the first signs of an impending crap storm is part of our pre-landing mental gymnastics....or should be. My exposure to years of training exercises sometimes make me wonder why the term " training accident" is more common than one would think. Isn't the purpose of training to go slow, evaluate conditions, adjust operation accordingly and communicate before, during and after operations? Then review and discuss what went right, what was unexpected and what could be improved. People talk about pilots having to make split second decisions but this seemed to go on and on and then on some more with no adjustment of plan. I hope these guys go on the circuit and explain how they spent a huge amount of taxpayer cash and that they now see that during a training exercise, discretion is always the better part of valor.

It's possible that back in 2000 more or better training would have prevented an H60 from rolling down the side of Mt. Shasta from 12K due to rapid loss of reference but at least they were trying to get to someone in need. Training is the time for things to go smoothly, not just go out and follow the plan profile and for someone in a command position to say " stop now".

rotorrookie

24th Feb 2022, 14:39

We used to call it to "crash into lz" during heliskiing operations, the description for no hover landing in powder snow to avoid white-out. It looks like they took it to next level

Bksmithca

24th Feb 2022, 16:21

Hahahahahhah. That's brilliant Gordy.

And I was thinking the unit commander wanted to go skiing and was just trying to avoid the long lift lines

Hat and coat too the door

Gordy

24th Feb 2022, 17:37

And I was thinking the unit commander wanted to go skiing and was just trying to avoid the long lift lines

Probably too close to the truth for comfort. Snowbird is one of the 4 major ski resorts in the cottonwood canyons and it would not surprise me to hear that they were landing there "as part of their training', but also to get a cool photo to show people. There are PLENTY of other paces to land away from a high density populated ski resort.

JimEli

24th Feb 2022, 21:21

...
It's possible that back in 2000 more or better training would have prevented an H60 from rolling down the side of Mt. Shasta from 12K due to rapid loss of reference but at least they were trying to get to someone in need.
...

Mt. Hood maybe? 2002? USAF H60? Insufficeint power to HOGE? No loss of visual, just needed more-better training interpreting the operator's manul performance data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QcYZ0qLHU

Pilot DAR

24th Feb 2022, 22:33

but also to get a cool photo to show people.

They got it.

There are PLENTY of other paces to land away from a high density populated ski resort.

Yes, but if you're going to run into trouble, it's nice to do it where help will walk [ski] over to see if you're okay!

I understand that in one of Canada's native languages, "snow" is actually described more specifically with one of seven different words. I'm guessing that several of them are "avoid HIGE" type snow!

EESDL

25th Feb 2022, 07:01

If you are going to crash - crash in a Black Hawk. It is not by chance that you'll walk away more often than not.

601

25th Feb 2022, 07:24

Yes, but if you're going to run into trouble, it's nice to do it where help will walk [ski] over to see if you're okay!
Not when one of the skiers in the first video says"lets get out of here"

skadi

25th Feb 2022, 08:03

Not when one of the skiers in the first video says"lets get out of here"

To flee instead of helping is not the best solution!

skadi

[email protected]

25th Feb 2022, 08:03

They got it. And internet infamy into the bargain.......

albatross

25th Feb 2022, 16:43

I recall an accident years ago - in Alaska I think.
Astar gets into a snowball on a glacier. WHUMP!
Second Astar goes to the rescue..WHUMP!
Third Astar…same result.

albatross

25th Feb 2022, 16:50

Re The Mt. Hood UH-60 accident . I heard it was caused by Katabatic winds. Down-flow can result in your downfall.

havoc

25th Feb 2022, 19:59

The incident in Alaska was do to flat light conditions.

MightyGem

25th Feb 2022, 20:47

I recall an accident years ago - in Alaska I think.
Astar gets into a snowball on a glacier. WHUMP!
Second Astar goes to the rescue..WHUMP!
Third Astar…same result.
Similar in Norway many years ago involving the RAF or Army Air Corps(can't quite remember :O)

Also, many years ago in South Germany, an AAC Lynx ended up on it's side in a snow landing. They were inserting an SF patrol on an exercise. The troops exited the wreckage checked that the crew were OK and moved out on their patrol. :D

ShyTorque

25th Feb 2022, 21:22

Some years ago, a Britmil Gazelle landed in a snow and ice covered car park somewhere in Norway. During or after shutdown (can't recall which, it was decades ago) the aircraft skids worked just as advertised and the aircraft set off down the slope and ended up nose first in a snow bank.

A second Gazelle pilot spotted the incident just after it had occurred. He dropped down to help out and landed just where the first one did. Also having skids, unfortunately it followed almost exactly in the tracks of the first aircraft, the back end of which unfortunately wasn't as soft as the snowbank.... :ooh:

Easily done, I once found myself hanging on the end of the right hand pilot's door of a Gazelle during an engine running crew change as it skidded gently downhill on an icy dispersal towards other parked aircraft. Pilot's flying boots have very little useful tread and I was a mere passenger until a drain cover stopped the aircraft going any further.

albatross

26th Feb 2022, 02:14

The incident in Alaska was do to flat light conditions.
Sorry my bad, I heard white out and assumed it was a snowball not due to a flat light white out as you state.

SilsoeSid

26th Feb 2022, 06:52

Would this be the Norway incident? Two gazelles from 2Flt AMF
XZ348 and XW843 (same numbers, different order)
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/65049
UK Military Aircraft Losses (http://www.ukserials.com/losses-1990.htm)

Did 3 BAS have a similar incident, or has time blurred the facts?

I think the Lynx incident mentioned above, was close to the Ex Snow Queen hut.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/64963

Two's in

26th Feb 2022, 14:54

Starting with the original accident here, this has to win the "Most avoidable accident " award. Sitting in a 30 foot hover waiting for the snow cloud to envelop you, with the Number 2 creeping up behind you only has one outcome, and this was it. They either didn't know the correct technique, or forgot they were over snow. Attempted formation zero-zero landings is probably an advanced lesson...

So, the Norway stuff for the UK.

The Puma incident was a classic. Puma enters whiteout, loses references, crashes and rolls over. Army or RM Gazelle goes to assist, attempts to land, whiteout, rinse and repeat. A second Gazelle then tips up, attempts to land, whiteout, and now 3 helicopters crashed in the snow. I don't remember there being any serious injuries but talk about slow learners.

The 2 Flight AAC incident was at a civvy airfield in Norway (Floro?), transiting back from Winter Ops. 5 Gazelles (the entire Flight!) were hover taxiing in for a refuel, the area was a bit tight and the 2 front gazelles clipped each other causing bits of rotor blades and crap to fly everywhere, those 2 crashed immediately, the debris then hit the 3rd aircraft and the 4th aircraft over torqued trying to avoid the ****fest coming at him. The fifth aircraft was far enough back not to be part of the destruction. The 2 in the mid-air were Cat 5, third one was Cat 4 and the fourth was Cat 3. A Norwegian ground crew operative was seriously injured by the debris. Back to the "Most avoidable accident" awards...

MightyGem

26th Feb 2022, 19:03

I think the Lynx incident mentioned above, was close to the Ex Snow Queen hut.
Yes, that was the one.

Long time no hear, Sid. You still with NPAS?

sycamore

26th Feb 2022, 20:08

Out of interest,did the AAC ever use the skis we tested in Canada....?

NutLoose

24th Apr 2022, 14:20

Report out and chalks it up to pilot error.

https://apnews.com/article/utah-42c435174b0050661a4108779fe8f315

SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Whiteout conditions caused a Blackhawk helicopter pilot to lose sight of where he was trying to land, causing a February crash with another helicopter near a Utah ski resort that resulted in more than $9 million in damages, the Utah Army National Guard said Thursday.

Remarkably, none of men and women aboard the helicopter or the dozens of skiers nearby at Snowbird Ski Resort were injured.

Investigators chalked up the incident to human error because the pilot couldn’t figure out his position and had to rely on aircraft flight instruments, leading the Blackhawk rolling on its side and break its main rotor.

One piece of the rotor flew off and hit the tail rotor of the other helicopter that was nearby in the training exercise, investigators found.

The second pilot managed to land his Blackhawk despite spinning around after being hit. That pilot’s actions to safely land his helicopter were described as commendable by investigators.

Both helicopters ended up with major damages estimated at $9.23 million, the report found.

The crash startled skiers and snowboarders (https://apnews.com/article/utah-salt-lake-city-accidents-helicopter-crashes-c8fd4a0a4b1e3602a89bf9a19a3925fe) taking advantage of post-Presidents Day weekend’s fresh snow and clear skies. They heard the boom and saw a huge cloud of snow billow from the crash site near a chairlift.

TwinHueyMan

24th Apr 2022, 15:07

I recall when this accident happened, a former commander of the unit ridiculed on a Facebook post the multiple civilian/utility pilots that basically identified exactly what the report has said (yours truly included). The arrogance that “you are all below the great Utah National Guard” when among the level experience that was in the comments there leads me to think that this wasn’t pilot error, it’s an institutional failure of overconfidence and incompetence that bled over into these two crews.

I can’t say that I’ve ever been graced with a position in National Guard aviation, but in my time with some higher echelon active duty aviation organizations in the past, we were always very keen to be humble, open to suggestions and critiques, and willing to admit when we were in over our heads.

Mike

[email protected]

24th Apr 2022, 16:22

Agreed THM - it was obvious to most of us it was a pilot error - he could have just overshot vertically and got out of the snow cloud.

Looking at the video it would seem the number 2 allowed himself to get too low behind the leader and eat his snow cloud as well as his own. He then has the blade strike which takes out the TR on the lead who spins round and crashes.

All very avoidable as we have said earlier.

fdr

25th Apr 2022, 14:54

If you are going to crash - crash in a Black Hawk. It is not by chance that you'll walk away more often than not.

Absolutely, designed to fail gracefully. At least the unit standards officer has been effective, synchronized wipeout, Does the UA Army teach hovering over snow?
Its disappointing as AATD had been given proposed crew cueing to alleviate brownout and whiteout issues a long time back, Shawn Coyle and I tried to get traction, and as usual, AATD's speedbump was at play. The speedbump finally fell off the perch, which may make Ft Fumble revert to it's former title, Ft Eustice.

TUPE

25th Apr 2022, 18:48

albatross

25th Apr 2022, 19:33

Mt. Hood maybe? 2002? USAF H60? Insufficeint power to HOGE? No loss of visual, just needed more-better training interpreting the operator's manul performance data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7QcYZ0qLHU

Mountain Downflow is not your friend!
I speculate that this may have been a contributing factor in this case.
Heavy, cold air from up the mountain flows rapidly down the slope.
A katabatic wind is an example but it can be a localized phenomenon too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katabatic_wind

diginagain

25th Apr 2022, 19:43

Out of interest,did the AAC ever use the skis we tested in Canada....?Lived on a shelf in the G1098 store. Went in the Flt G1098 truck when we were called-out on Active Edge, then went back into the store when we got back to camp.

ShyTorque

25th Apr 2022, 19:52

What is the staff solution here? A higher hover to remain clear of the snow cloud and wait, wait, wait for the loose snow to be blown away and references to be maintained? Or zero speed it on, accepting the risk of what might be lurking below the snow?

Either technique can work for those better taught / more experienced than those rookie pilots...and it would have for them too, but you should always leave yourself an escape route!

But whichever you try to do, you really don't want to try landing two ten ton helicopters together in close proximity in potentially blowing snow conditions.