Liz Truss.

[chevvron]

LBC and BBC both moaning about the Foreign Secretary using '336 for a flight to Oz for a meeting (held annually) with government officials.
LBC are claiming the fligtht cost £500K and included her delegation plus her security team so there were too many going to use a commercial flight.

[EESDL]

what was wrong with using Teams - other video conferencing software is available.......

[trim it out]

LBC and BBC both moaning about the Foreign Secretary using '336 for a flight to Oz for a meeting (held annually) with government officials.
LBC are claiming the fligtht cost £500K and included her delegation plus her security team so there were too many going to use a commercial flight.
14 people on the charter I think Eddie Mair said, surely that's not over the threshold for too many to go on a commercial flight?

[Timelord]

I thought that was exactly what it was for.

[SWBKCB]

It was the Titan A.321 that was used, not the 330.

[Double Hydco]

I thought it was the Titan A321 hence the two fuel stops??

[ORAC]

It was the Titan A321, which is on an exclusive lease to the government for 2 years.

And, yes, the lease works out at about £100K a day, so a 5 day trip costs out at about £500K, but it would cost the same sitting in the ground - so it seems sensible to use it if it had no other planned tasking.

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1421740602430050312?s=21

[NutLoose]

It would be interesting to see what the contract involves and covers, operating an aircraft involves parking fees, maintenance and insurance costs, sitting on the ground means increased parking costs and increased maintenance costs per hour of utilisation. There will be an optimum hours per year flying to reduce the costings per hour.

They’d be sh*tting kittens if they ever saw the costs they used to spend on prepping a VC10 ( and spare ) for a Royal.

I bet the Chileans at home are not kicking up a fuss over their 767 visiting Waddington

[Double Hydco]

And, yes, the lease works out at about £100K a day, so a 5 day trip costs out at about £500K, but it would cost the same sitting in the ground - so it seems sensible to use it if it had no other planned tasking.

It’s costing £100k a day, even if it doesn’t fly!?!? 😱

[ORAC]

Quoted as £75M for 2 years, do the maths…

[ORAC]

Getting their money’s worth out of it…

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1486697162792701959?s=21

[minigundiplomat]

I’m sure the left would be happier to send HM’s foreign secretary by Air Asia X, until they gain power of course. Then the brown ale and sandwiches go in the bin and the champagne and caviar appears.

Complete non-story.

[NutLoose]

Many moons ago a certain airline won a contract worth millions to service and overhaul a fleet of jets from out in the desert, staff were sent to sign the contracts over at the new jet owners HQ abroad, now the airline also had a budget airline and the staff members were booked on a flight out to the HQ’s city, unfortunately the said airline had a policy that fare paying Pax had priority over staff so they were bumped off the jet to allow Doris and her offspring with their £10 tickets to fly off to the sun…. Much apologies over the phone and arrangements made to fly out the next day….. I think you can guess what happened, in the end the Customer flew over to the U.K. to sign the contract.

[crewmeal]

I hope everyone was fully jabbed!!!

[falcon900]

Following this nihilistic line of thinking, Ministers should take the bus rather than having chauffeur driven cars, meet in hessian tents rather that refurbished houses of parliament, and so on.
We are a significant sovereign nation (despite it being hard to believe at times) and should act accordingly. If the C02 emissions are bothering us so much, we might be better advised to start with Easyjet etc

[esa-aardvark]

Put alot of key (?) people on the same flight.
Reminds me of a certain helicopter incident.

[SWBKCB]

Getting their money’s worth out of it…

https://twitter.com/andynetherwood/status/1486697162792701959?s=21

So presumably the £75m covers both 321's?

[Not_a_boffin]

So Grangela is outraged that the Foreign Secretary uses a charter, rather than a commercial flight, when travelling

1. To Australia to discuss a highly sensitive tripartite agreement
2. During an ongoing crisis involving an potential European conflict
3. Over a duration of 19 hours

All of which will require discussion with her team and potentially SoS Defence and other Whitehall departments. What could possibly go wrong doing that on a commercial flight........?

It is a sad reflection on the capabilities of the media that no-one has pointed that out.

[Uplinker]

As falcon900 and others say, there are certain things that require a certain physical presence. If this trip was to discuss important issues, then the UK needed to impress. The cost of this trip seem eye-watering to us mere mortals, but we are probably not very conversant with the sums involved in running a country.

The refurbishment of St Pancras railway station in London was apparently £800 million. HS2 will cost ~ £80 billion or more, which makes £500 thousand just small change. Having said that, it does seem excessive, and one wonders why they couldn't use a scheduled BA flight for example - assuming the service is running? Perhaps standard passenger aircraft security is not sufficient for Government ministers?

[Asturias56]

"The refurbishment of St Pancras railway station in London was apparently £800 million"

yes but that's around for 50-100 years - half a million sounds an awful lot for a trip to me.

[Asturias56]

"Following this nihilistic line of thinking, Ministers should take the bus rather than having chauffeur driven cars"

We'd see an improvement in the Bus Service pretty fast then.

I can remember when Lee Kwan Yew used to fly commercial from S'pore to Jakarta - they reserved the front 3 seats for him, his Secretary and a single Protection Officer - they boarded just before take off and then the plane would drop him off at the Govt. Terminal at Halim before taxying across to the normal terminal at Jakarta - but we got a direct routing so we actually took less time overall.

[NutLoose]

If the UK government are going full gang Green, Then this is a disgrace , pricing people out of cars , planned removal of gas boilers, and basically making it a hypothetical crime of emitting CO2.


Well if you want to go green, at it's fastest, the Cutty Sark managed the crossing from Sydney to London in 73 days, so allowing a two weeks quarantine, a week for the meetings and treatment for scurvy, and then the return passage with a fair wind and calm seas.
It will only take her 167 days, or nigh on as near as damn it, 24 weeks at top speed... Some may say to lose her for that long is a good thing, but at least it will meet with your green credentials.

:)


..

[NutLoose]

"The refurbishment of St Pancras railway station in London was apparently £800 million"

yes but that's around for 50-100 years - half a million sounds an awful lot for a trip to me.

What you are missing is the half a million is also factoring in the charges being paid anyway, lease price etc. read post 9 and 10. This is what you get when you do not buy new outright but lease, at least with the buy option you are left with an aircraft after two years to either sell on or carry on operating, the other advantage would be it would have a warranty so spares etc would be covered..

[cynicalint]

I wonder why the media keep referring to it as a 'private' jet!

[Davef68]

I've never understood the reverse snobbery in this country regarding providing dedicated air travel for Govt ministers and the Royal Family - most other countries, certainly the G8 ones, have multiple dedicated VIP aircraft.

[Uplinker]

"The refurbishment of St Pancras..........yes but that's around for 50-100 years - half a million sounds an awful lot for a trip to me.

It sounds a lot to me too, as I said, but it is our foreign secretary and our defence secretary, who are discussing and negotiating "economic, security and technology interests as well as standing up against malign aggressors"*; agreements which could easily last 50 years.

"Ministers will discuss security and defence capability, building on AUKUS, and commit to tackling state and hybrid threats and jointly supporting maritime security.The visit comes in the face of growing aggression from Russia, which is waging to destabilise and threaten its sovereign neighbour Ukraine, and increasing threats in the Indo-Pacific.

It also comes during crucial days for the Tongan relief effort, as the UK works urgently with Australian and New Zealand counterparts to support those affected."*

Sounds pretty important to me.


* both from Gov.UK

[ETOPS]

Too true - just look at the German Government fleet 3 Airbus A350 and 3 A321.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1083/1003_german_air_force_airbus_a350_941_planespottersnet_12332 96_7ae7a523b0_o_e88a9da5eaed3bdf7928da8df4beb59a8bc0c26a.jpg

[ersa]

Too true - just look at the German Government fleet 3 Airbus A350 and 3 A321.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1083/1003_german_air_force_airbus_a350_941_planespottersnet_12332 96_7ae7a523b0_o_e88a9da5eaed3bdf7928da8df4beb59a8bc0c26a.jpg Germany is building coal fired power stations , the UK is not , Boris and his goons are either going green or treating the UK as a joke

[Timmy Tomkins]

Too true - just look at the German Government fleet 3 Airbus A350 and 3 A321.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1083/1003_german_air_force_airbus_a350_941_planespottersnet_12332 96_7ae7a523b0_o_e88a9da5eaed3bdf7928da8df4beb59a8bc0c26a.jpg
Yes, but they are not mired in scandal and probably run an efficient government

[wiggy]

So Grangela is outraged that the Foreign Secretary uses a charter, rather than a commercial flight, when travelling

1. To Australia to discuss a highly sensitive tripartite agreement
2. During an ongoing crisis involving an potential European conflict
3. Over a duration of 19 hours

All of which will require discussion with her team and potentially SoS Defence and other Whitehall departments. What could possibly go wrong doing that on a commercial flight........?

It is a sad reflection on the capabilities of the media that no-one has pointed that out.

Agreed. Much as I am not a fan of Liz Truss I do think people need to think a bit harder before boarding the outrage bus on this specific issue…

Spend much time as either passenger or crew in certain cabins on scheduled flights and you start to see all sorts of interesting info bits of paper/laptop screens…. what’s “commercially sensitive” between friends?…

and then as you say there’s also the issue of discussions, perhaps on sensitive matters, at odd times of day or night..

[Jimlad1]

Minor point - its not £75m over 2 years, but 5 years. Thats roughly £41k per day.

[ORAC]

Jimlad1,

I know that is being quoted as the length of the overall contract, but if you follow the twitter thread below then the term of the A321 addendum is given as 2 years. Where the full contract can be downloaded I don't know.

https://twitter.com/AndyNetherwood/status/1421740628195610627?s=20&t=YJivZ2x8iFyDaB8clQMwCQ

[NutLoose]

Titans wet lease terms are on their site, whether they had preferential treatment is open to debate, normal Gov stuff I would add 10% ;)

Terms

https://www.titan-airways.com/commercial/charter-terms-conditions/wet-lease-terms-conditions/

[k3k3]

Yes, but they are not mired in scandal and probably run an efficient government
No, and no.

Not very conversant with German political machinations are you...

[Jimlad1]

Jimlad1,

I know that is being quoted as the length of the overall contract, but if you follow the twitter thread below then the term of the A321 addendum is given as 2 years. Where the full contract can be downloaded I don't know.

https://twitter.com/AndyNetherwood/status/1421740628195610627?s=20&t=YJivZ2x8iFyDaB8clQMwCQ

The contract is 2 yrs with option to extend up to 5 years (hence amendment to show £75m) - its £15m per year running costs.

[SLXOwft]

When I first saw the story I was wondering if the AUKUS agreement had a clause allowing for the transportation of undesirables from the UK to Christmas Island via Oz but then realized it was a return trip.

The Germans replaced 2 340s with 3 350s to prevent VIP delays (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/633300-red-white-blue-voyager-12.html#post10815416). Mind you the 321 has a medevac role.

Even given my contempt for the current shower I am with those who think a country as rich as the UK should have a dedicated state owned VIP transport fleet. My understanding is that Truss, her entourage and security detail would have been spread over multiple flights due to seat shortage. Not surprising due to the low number of flights driven by the strict entry requirements.
<rant>
Given the focus on the cost and not the benefit we have seen sensible use of premium transport largely driven out especially in the public sector. While it is my opinion (unlike some on this forum) that governments are not doing enough to drive down CO2 emissions, its not those travelling for work who are the issue. It's the tourists, especially short haul, who are making the unnecessary trips that they have been led to believe is their right. (Prepares to receive incoming fire.) However, there is a need to make sea and rail transport competitive while 'cleaner' aircraft propulsion systems are developed.

I would be interested in seeing the fuel burn and CO2 emissions of the the 321 v Voyager for the trip - e.g. a comparison of the extra burn due to fuel carried v the burn due to 2 stops etc.

Mind you if Blair & Brown hadn't specified the A330 MRTT Lite, Voyager would have had UARRSI and a boom like la Truss's interlocutors' KC-30s and no need to stop. (excuse for military aviation picture)

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x372/airbus_kc_30a_mrtt_x2_1e603b0993d12fd1ef05c0e8c5c157f4332fcf 07.jpg
Courtesy Australian DoD


No doubt if she had flown on QF (apparently QF to Darwin would have obviated any stops :ugh:, no matter the A380's appetite for fuel), as suggested in some quarters, there would have been outrage over paying UK tax payers money to a 'foreign airline' ignoring the fact that IAG is a Spanish domiciled company c.10% owned by QR.

</rant>

[DuncanDoenitz]

So UK plc has a corporate jet with a dirty great Union Jack on the tail.

If we aren't going to use it when Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State and entourage have to travel to the Antipodes then, unless I'm missing the point, exactly when are we going to use it?

[Video Mixdown]

So UK plc has a corporate jet with a dirty great Union Jack on the tail.If we aren't going to use it when Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State and entourage have to travel to the Antipodes then, unless I'm missing the point, exactly when are we going to use it?
What are you talking about? A UK liveried A321LR was used. ZZ336 (A330 MRTT) carries a similar livery, but is also routinely used as a tanker so may have been unavailable. This whole thread is an argument about nothing.

[DuncanDoenitz]

Perhaps we are writing at cross purposes. I think most people aware that the similarly-liveried 330 spends most of its time in the tanking role; the "UK liveried A321LR" they actually used is what I was referring to. I still think "UK plc ... corporate jet with a dirty great Union Jack on the tail" covers it.

[Video Mixdown]

Perhaps we are writing at cross purposes. I think most people aware that the similarly-liveried 330 spends most of its time in the tanking role; the "UK liveried A321LR" they actually used is what I was referring to. I still think "UK plc ... corporate jet with a dirty great Union Jack on the tail" covers it.
Cross purposes indeed. Apologies.

[NutLoose]

So UK plc has a corporate jet with a dirty great Union Jack on the tail.

If we aren't going to use it when Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State and entourage have to travel to the Antipodes then, unless I'm missing the point, exactly when are we going to use it?

Totally agree, you’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t… if she hadn’t used it, someone would be bitching about why are we leasing an aircraft that is not being used while spending out on airfares.

[pilotmike]

This is what you get when you do not buy new outright but lease, at least with the buy option you are left with an aircraft after two years to either sell on or carry on operating, the other advantage would be it would have a warranty so spares etc would be covered..
I really don't believe you're understanding ACMI correctly: M is for Maintenance.

Also, when you buy, you need to pay for the C (Crew) part as well. That doesn't come cheap. And what about the AOC? Had you factored any of that into your comparison?

[Dannyboy39]

Even if it is costing £40K a day - that is still £1.2M over a month. That is new 777 monthly lease rate levels.

You can get mature A321s at the moment for around $175-200K a month right now.

[212man]

No doubt if she had flown on QF (apparently QF to Darwin would have obviated any stops https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif, no matter the A380's appetite for fuel),

it’s a 787 - hence the non-stop flight! Still need a connection to Sydney though……

[rattman]

it’s a 787 - hence the non-stop flight! Still need a connection to Sydney though……
Darwin is only a refuel stop in reality, there might be a few passengers getting on/off but that would single digits worth, it then heads to sydney

[212man]

Darwin is only a refuel stop in reality, there might be a few passengers getting on/off but that would single digits worth, it then heads to sydney
I know. Not all do it seems

[WHBM]

LBC and BBC both moaning about the Foreign Secretary using '336 for a flight to Oz for a meeting (held annually) with government officials.
LBC are claiming the fligtht cost £500K and included her delegation plus her security team so there were too many going to use a commercial flight.
If I'm not mistaken it was one of these two that reported, when the Bomber Command memorial was opened in London, that the RNZAF had flown over the remaining aircrew who were attending the ceremony in the RNZAF VIP Boeing 757. I don't remember these media whinging about the cost and how they could have come commercial on Air New Zealand - in fact, they whinged instead about how nicely and well the New Zealand former crews were being treated, while the British attendees had to make their own way there.

[Lance Shippey]

I recall sharing a BA flight LHR/MAN with a former British Prime Minister. BA took out 18 seats in rows 1-3 seats ABCDEF whilst he sat in 1C and his secretary in 1D. A/C given T/O clearance from the gate. I also remember giving up my seat AKL/HNL flt with PAN AM to the "Aide" of the King of Tonga as His Majesty would be more comfortable with two seats.
I certainly do not begrudge Liz Truss her delegation, and security from taking the Titan A321. It certainly mitigates the worry of "Will my bags arrive". I still laugh about the old promotional Concorde advertisement. "Breakfast in London, Lunch in New York," and someone spraying on" Bags iin Bermuda".
Well done Liz Truss, I would have expected no less from My Government. and no extra a/c carrying a fleet of limo's and helicopters.

Lance Shippey

[Davef68]

I recall sharing a BA flight LHR/MAN with a former British Prime Minister. BA took out 18 seats in rows 1-3 seats ABCDEF whilst he sat in 1C and his secretary in 1D. A/C given T/O clearance from the gate.

More than one occasion shared the evening LCY-EDI flight with Scottish then-Chancellor/future PM. On one occasion he was in the row in front of me. He was driven straight to the aircraft steps. First time, the sudden presence of armed Police round the aircraft and at the gate was a bit of a surprise.

[Doctor Cruces]

I am not a fan of this government at all, but use of what is essentially a service jet (for the duration of the contract) to fly a Government minister and team on official government business to discuss a highly sensitive topic (if that's what it was) is not a problem.

[Bueno Hombre]

"Following this nihilistic line of thinking, Ministers should take the bus rather than having chauffeur driven cars"

We'd see an improvement in the Bus Service pretty fast then.

I can remember when Lee Kwan Yew used to fly commercial from S'pore to Jakarta - they reserved the front 3 seats for him, his Secretary and a single Protection Officer - they boarded just before take off and then the plane would drop him off at the Govt. Terminal at Halim before taxying across to the normal terminal at Jakarta - but we got a direct routing so we actually took less time overall.
Yes indeed . Singapore Government still seems to be very excellent and a positive example to other nations.

[Imagegear]

I guess the question for me is, are Ministers indispensable? and also without a deputy leader ready to take over the reigns at short notice?

The reason I suspect the PM of Singapore could do it was to show:

a) That he was not under any threat at that time.
b) That his chain of command was set, trusted, and ready to assume power if necessary

Not necessarily the case for this government.

IG

[212man]

Yes indeed . Singapore Government still seems to be very excellent and a positive example to other nations.
Their Philosophy (that set by LKY) is to run it like a successful company, attracting the best talent they can for the ministerial roles and paying them private sector market rates. That way, they focus on making the country a success and are not distracted by expenses fiddling or other financial skullduggery. They are the highest paid politicians in the world.

[gr4techie]

LBC and BBC both moaning about the Foreign Secretary using '336 for a flight to Oz for a meeting (held annually) with government officials.
LBC are claiming the fligtht cost £500K and included her delegation plus her security team so there were too many going to use a commercial flight.

Why does she need a security team to go to Oz?

Whats the threat?

Don’t the Aussies have their own police? Even SAS.

[Asturias56]

to stop Aussies coming up and mocking her about cricket?

[cessnapete]

Let's wait for the BBC and Ms Rayner to chastise Boris for using another private jet to Ukraine!

[Asturias56]

"The reason I suspect the PM of Singapore could do it was to show: a) That he was not under any threat at that time. b) That his chain of command was set, trusted, and ready to assume power if necessary Not necessarily the case for this government."

he said officially that Singapore had the best airline in the world and it would be stupid not to use it.

Also he was hot on politicians getting above themselves. One day the Straights Times published a tiny paragraph "Today is the birthday of the First Minister LKY - the staff and owners of the Times wish him a very happy birthday" - it was bottom of page 18 in the smallest type I ever saw used in a newspaper and even that was considered to be a bit risky.

[Uplinker]

Is face-to-face really necessary....

I don't know if you have ever tried to do a job interview over video? I have twice. It is really awkward and artificial and does not convey body language, presence, authority, even one's clothing etc etc. Crucially, the direct eye contact is missing.
And if you are taking part in complex trade and defence talks, you will have many people on both sides interacting and contributing during the discussions, which is impossible to cover adequately on a 'Zoom' style video link. If satellites are involved, they will introduce a delay, making conversation difficult. Security, (or lack of it), of the video link against eavesdroppers is also an important factor.

If the UK wants to have World influence - and we certainly do need World influence right now - then a 'Zoom' or 'Team' meeting will not cut it. It would be unworkable and would simply look and feel cheap. Also it's quite tricky to sign a document unless you are actually there in person !

This trip involved both our defence secretary and Ms Truss, plus their support teams, for important talks, and is entirely in keeping with our position in the World. Most of us, myself included, have no concept of the sums involved in running a government or a country. Yes, one could buy a very nice house for what this trip cost, but that is not really the point.

[Ninthace]

You've not been a staff officer then? They do all the negotiating work, get the "i"s dotted and the "t"s crossed. write the script for the grownups to talk to and prepare the brief with the answers to the questions that might arise. The bosses just turn up to sign the paperwork, make the speeches written for them and the photo opportunity. If anyone deserves a ride in Boris's winged ego trip. it's the staff.