Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

[Mr Proach]

GREAT NEWS!! The ABORIGINAL (First Nations People) FLAG is now freely available for use by the general public. I trust that Qantas (and others), an Australian airline, in the Spirit of Australia will paint the Aboriginal Flag on it's aircraft as matter or priority. Wouldn't it be great for the flag to be seen at airports around the nation and the globe.

[PoppaJo]

It’s too political, executives are not getting involved in the subject at the moment it’s career suicide. It will be a PR disaster either way. You slap on the aboriginal flag, and they will want the Aussie flag removed. Then the uproar from the 97%.

Its a decisive flag (well at the moment) and the majority of the public want nothing to do with it. QF has enough on its plate for the foreseeable future let alone dealing with public fallouts from this.

[NumptyAussie]

It’s too political, executives are not getting involved in the subject at the moment it’s career suicide. It will be a PR disaster either way. You slap on the aboriginal flag, and they will want the Aussie flag removed. Then the uproar from the 97%.

Who is "they"?

[Mr Proach]

It’s too political, executives are not getting involved in the subject at the moment it’s career suicide. It will be a PR disaster either way. You slap on the aboriginal flag, and they will want the Aussie flag removed. Then the uproar from the 97%.
This isn't political, this is about being able to display your country's flag? What do you mean by the "Aussie flag" and who are you referring to when you write "they"?

[PoppaJo]

Who is "they"?
Indigenous Australians are burning the Aussie flag in the streets today. That’s who they are.

Dual flag? I think most Australians wouldn’t be fazed by a dual flag on the Jet. However it’s clear Indigenous Australians want one flag and one only.


What do you mean by the "Aussie flag"
The Aussie flag that sits on each QF jet alongside the rego.

[Mr Proach]

Indigenous Australians are burning the Aussie flag in the streets today. That’s who they are.

Dual flag? I think most Australians wouldn’t be fazed by a dual flag on the Jet. However it’s clear Indigenous Australians want one flag and one only.



The Aussie flag that sits on each QF jet alongside the rego.
So the indigenous Australians are burning the flags that are alongside the rego on each QF jet? Without knowing your ethnicity or your knowledge on the true history of the English occupation of Australia however, with respect, your comments could be taken as insidiously racist.

[Union Jack]

QANTAS might like to consider going for something like SAA did, with different markings on either side of their aircraft....

Jack

[Mr Proach]

Isn't that apartside?

[OldLurker]

ISTR that back in the 70s, BA and SQ flew Concorde between London and Singapore with BA paint job on one side and SQ on the other.

[OldLurker]

GREAT NEWS!! The ABORIGINAL (First Nations People) FLAG is now freely available for use by the general public. I trust that Qantas (and others), an Australian airline, in the Spirit of Australia will paint the Aboriginal Flag on it's aircraft as matter or priority. Wouldn't it be great for the flag to be seen at airports around the nation and the globe.Although this is your forum, it's read by people around the world who may not be familiar with the details of Aussie controvesries. Would someone care to explain what this is all about?

Hasn't the so-called "Aboriginal Flag" been freely available tor years, or did something just change? Isn't the "Australian National Flag" - you know, the one with the flag of those nasty Poms in the corner - still, well, the national flag? If the "Aboriginal Flag" should be on Qantas aircraft, shouldn't the Torres Strait Islander Flag be there too?

Granted, it would be great for both (or all three) flags to be seen around the globe.

[VH-MLE]

Mr Proach, rather than pontificate here on this issue (& make BS accusations on racism) why don’t you write to Alan Joyce yourself if you feel that strongly about it!

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

pps & $20 million to use the flag was a bargain too wasn’t it, said no one.

[Lambswool]

So the indigenous Australians are burning the flags that are alongside the rego on each QF jet? Without knowing your ethnicity or your knowledge on the true history of the English occupation of Australia however, with respect, your comments could be taken as insidiously racist.

and that comment could be taken as insidiously clownish.

[homonculus]

Covid also crossed the Tasman

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Abel Tasman never had the dreaded COVID, but I do hear he crossed the Tasman, or,......wait for it......he would have been 'Unable' ?? .......


('Hat, coat.......')

[morno]

So the indigenous Australians are burning the flags that are alongside the rego on each QF jet? Without knowing your ethnicity or your knowledge on the true history of the English occupation of Australia however, with respect, your comments could be taken as insidiously racist.

It’s the Australian flag mate, how is saying that racist? :ugh:

[De_flieger]

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

As well as the Aboriginal and Australian National flags, maybe we need a Humour/Sarcasm flag too to make it stand out a bit more…😉on the otherside and all

[Just an other number]

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

Whoosh.
Does that deserve a 🦜

[SHVC]

This isn't political, this is about being able to display your country's flag? What do you mean by the "Aussie flag" and who are you referring to when you write "they"?


What do you mean by “your country’s flag” as far as I’m aware the county’s national flag is freely displayed and proudly flown on aircraft, buildings and even ships.

it was political and about money! Ask the designer himself who pocketed a cool 20mil of our tax payer money.

Anyway it’s good for anyone that want to use it now if they so wish as they will be able to without persecution.

[tail wheel]

"this is about being able to display your country's flag?"

I thought this was our Nation's national flag, representing all Australians?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1440x806/flag_a9bc305a339140fbc4a6db8e32d918e820859bb8.jpg

And for those who think we should feature the Aboriginal flag on our international airline aircraft, what about this flag which also officially represents an Australian indigenous people:


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/531x290/torres_flag_b9120a7c8de3410ca721326df91b5bcd65b778b4.jpg

Neither first nation flag, nor the State flags would be recongisable at the international destinations serviced by Qantas and other Australian airlines.

We are one Nation. Internationally we should be recognized under one flag, the Australian Flag.

[43Inches]

All that flag says is that we are still part of the UK, the big Jack in the corner says we are still a British dominion to most other countries. Time for a change.

[Gne]

43,

So, if people looking at the flag assume Australia is "still part of the UK, the big Jack in the corner says we are still a British dominion", does that hold true for this Pacific island community?
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/275x183/download_7f29baf8cb8cd89565ecd0b1a3d6de4fcbaeefbe.jpg
Plenty of national flags include symbols to recognise historic associations. Why shouldn't ours?

[slice]

Is that the Hawaiian state flag ?

[neville_nobody]

And it was a independent country at the time they installed it and never a British Colony!!

[Union Jack]

Mr Proach, rather than pontificate here on this issue (& make BS accusations on racism) why don’t you write to Alan Joyce yourself if you feel that strongly about it!

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

pps & $20 million to use the flag was a bargain too wasn’t it, said no one.
In which case I *almost* feel like apologising for my #7 which seems to have led to the OP's double entendre....:D

Jack

[TriJetFlying]

GREAT NEWS!! The ABORIGINAL (First Nations People) FLAG is now freely available for use by the general public. I trust that Qantas (and others), an Australian airline, in the Spirit of Australia will paint the Aboriginal Flag on it's aircraft as matter or priority. Wouldn't it be great for the flag to be seen at airports around the nation and the globe.

Has to be a wind up…

[Icarus2001]

Question: Does adding another flag to the side of an aircraft bring people together, “reconcile” them as one nation or does it create division and a separate group, distinct from the whole?

[PoppaJo]

The latter

[dadruid]

I think you should flag the whole discussion.

[Mr Proach]

Mr Proach, rather than pontificate here on this issue (& make BS accusations on racism) why don’t you write to Alan Joyce yourself if you feel that strongly about it!

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

pps & $20 million to use the flag was a bargain too wasn’t it, said no one.
It was intended as a bit light hearted humour .... a pun on the South Africa (history of apartheid) and the comment of "markings" were on opposite sides of the airframe. Hence APARTSIDE.
With respect to the issue, I simply posted about the use of the aboriginal flag on Australian aircraft, I was surprised at the tone and aggressiveness of the responses which speaks volumes within itself. It appears there is a long way to go. That said, it is encouraging to see that some progress is being made in a few areas.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I wonder just what happened to the $20Mil..??

[Mr Proach]

Question: Does adding another flag to the side of an aircraft bring people together, “reconcile” them as one nation or does it create division and a separate group, distinct from the whole?
Nothwitstanding the argument of "division versus reconciliation", QF aircraft are flag carriers. One of the flags was subject to copyright laws. That no longer applies. These flags form part of our national identity. In my view, adding the flag to the flag carrier is a logical consequence.

[Mr Proach]

Although this is your forum, it's read by people around the world who may not be familiar with the details of Aussie controvesries. Would someone care to explain what this is all about?

Hasn't the so-called "Aboriginal Flag" been freely available tor years, or did something just change? Isn't the "Australian National Flag" - you know, the one with the flag of those nasty Poms in the corner - still, well, the national flag? If the "Aboriginal Flag" should be on Qantas aircraft, shouldn't the Torres Strait Islander Flag be there too?

Granted, it would be great for both (or all three) flags to be seen around the globe.

Use of the Aboriginal flag was subject to copyright laws which was recently settled. You should find an article on abc.net.au .

[down3gr33ns]

I wonder just what happened to the $20Mil..??

Could possibly donate some to pay for the damage to the old Parliament House doors.

[Gerard13]

I think this was kind of a joke...

[Lookleft]

My goodness there are a lot of very stupid people on these forums. All the government has done is purchase the copyright to the flag and as such it is freely available for anyone to obtain one and display it. It does not mean that it has become the official flag of the country!!!! One day this country will have to come to terms with its past but for now put your racist attitudes away and just let First Nations people have this moment.

[Paragraph377]

The divisions among Australians is growing, and it’s a really sad state of affairs. There are those who are for and against vaccines, those who are for and against the indigenous or the white British settlers, divided political parties and divided religious groups. We are tearing ourselves apart. A once fairly free and easy going society has become a cesspool of hate and anger. We are moving more backwards with every sunrise, rather than moving forwards. Why can’t we move forward, united, rather than live in the past. You cannot undo the past but you can change the future. We could take a leaf out of this blokes book - Graham Cockerell, the organiser of ‘Need for Feed’. Google him. This bloke sets the bar high, coordinating feed runs for drought stricken Aussie farmers. Many every day salt of the earth truckies giving up their time and money to help a mate in need. Seriously, our Politicians, of all the parties, have their head up their asses. It’s up to people power, not political power, to bring about needed change, to assist one another, to ensure we remain united. People talk about putting pictures of flags on planes? How about putting pictures of blue truckie singlets on planes, or pictures of homesteads and livestock. That is where the heart and soul of our country is.

[dr dre]

Occasionally having a passing interesting in Vexillology I looked into the meaning behind symbols in the Canton, the top left corner of a flag. The UK has used the Union Jack (technically the Union Flag) in the canton as a symbol of colonial or territorial ownership of places such as the Falklands, St Helena, Ascension, Bermuda, Turks and Caicos, the Cayman Islands, Monserrat and the Pitcairn Islands.

In terms of design I always look at Canada's flag to be one of the world's best, simple, striking and uniquely identifiable as Canadian. Their previous flag had a Union Jack in the canton and was a bit of a mess. No allegations that changing to the maple leaf would dishonour Canada's history. You can add other places like South Africa, Jamaica, Hong Kong, Barbados, Myanmar, Singapore and India that ditched the Union Jack at some point in time and adopted a more aesthetically pleasing and symbolically appropriate flag.

Design wise I admire these new Australian state flag (https://www.flagsforaustralia.com/state-series-1-australian-pale) designs based on a southern cross in the hoist third.

As to add aviation related discussion to this thread as it should have, well I guess airlines can paint whatever they want on the side of their aircraft! There's no reason or requirement they even have to have a national flag there. Air France, British Airways, Air New Zealand, are examples of "flag carriers" which don't have their nation's flag painted as a whole on the side of their aircraft, which is usually to the rear of the fuselage near the registration.

[neville_nobody]

With respect to the issue, I simply posted about the use of the aboriginal flag on Australian aircraft, I was surprised at the tone and aggressiveness of the responses which speaks volumes within itself. It appears there is a long way to go. That said, it is encouraging to see that some progress is being made in a few areas

You forget that many on this forum have spent time in Aboriginal communities and have first hand experience of Aboriginal life. That might have something to do with the push back.

Second to that noone has died defending the Aboriginal Flag but plenty have died for the Australian one and what that stood for. Maybe a little reality check is required in that department.

[Torukmacto]

It’s Time !
Country is so divided at the moment , covid has shown our federation’s weaknesses , labour have sensed it and are saying they want to discuss issues leading up to the election . Do we need the monarch now , that family is a mess , how about the British government ? It’s a mess , did they handle covid better than us ?
Time to become a republic , acknowledge where we came from . We can concentrate on us , flag , states , new and old Australians. Time to work it out and stand on our own .

[Ascend Charlie]

And everything has a price.

A land development near me was stopped because it had "cultural heritage" and had to be preserved.

Surprisingly, or not, a "confidential agreement" was reached, and the land got bulldozed. It also happened at another location in the Hunter Valley, and these precious bits of culture carried a price and have now disappeared.

As for the "Invasion Day", where would they be if we hadn't "invaded"? The previous 50,000 years weren't all that productive.

[Mr Proach]

You forget that many on this forum have spent time in Aboriginal communities and have first hand experience of Aboriginal life. That might have something to do with the push back.

Second to that noone has died defending the Aboriginal Flag but plenty have died for the Australian one and what that stood for. Maybe a little reality check is required in that department.

I am familiar with the communities. We have a propensity to judge other cultures from our own lived experiences. A little bit of compassion and empathy can go a long way.

[ChrisJ800]

Our flag is too similar to the NZ flag and Australia is too similar to Austria. If we are going to change the flag can we also change the name?

[reefrat]

Mr Proach, rather than pontificate here on this issue (& make BS accusations on racism) why don’t you write to Alan Joyce yourself if you feel that strongly about it!

ps it’s APARTHEID not APARTSIDE - do a bit of research if you don’t know - otherwise you come across as someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about…

Someone missed the joke Nice riposte Mr. P

[Buttscratcher]

As for the "Invasion Day", where would they be if we hadn't "invaded"? The previous 50,000 years weren't all that productive.

'They' would be speaking Dutch, or German, or Japanese...or just not be around anymore.

[belongamick]

Qantas could have put the Aboriginal flag on their aircraft years ago if they wanted to, the recent ownership doesn't really change much. They just would have had to pay a licensing fee to the... wait... nevermind, I think I just answered my own question.

[neville_nobody]

I am familiar with the communities. We have a propensity to judge other cultures from our own lived experiences. A little bit of compassion and empathy can go a long way.

Plenty of compassion, charity not to mention billions of taxpayers dollars have been spent, and what do we have as a result in 2022?
Honestly what do you think the end game here is really?? Are people suggesting we need to install Aboriginal Law over our constitution? Is anyone, including full blooded Aboriginals going back to throwing spears and hunting Kangaroos living naked in the wild? Honestly what is the point of all this?

[tossbag]

Take your pick of colonial powers, one of them would have ended up here. Better or worse than the Brits? History would be a pretty good guide on that. Suggest that things are far better for the colonisation than they ever would have been regardless of another colonial power or no 'invasion' at all.

The money spent on indigenous 'issues' is staggering for extremely poor outcomes, an inconvenient truth.

For every indigenous leader wanting more welfare, handouts, land rights etc there is an indigenous leader wanting an end to more welfare, handouts etc.

Things will never change until the level of violence within indigenous communities is acknowledged and addressed, another inconvenient truth for the clowns jumping on the invasion day bandwagon.

[TimmyTee]

Question: Does adding another flag to the side of an aircraft bring people together, “reconcile” them as one nation or does it create division and a separate group, distinct from the whole?

Probably just as much as changing the date to any other day on the calendar would.
The true intent of many "change the daters" is to remove any Australian Day Celebration - as they don't believe "we" are worthy of having a day to celebrate.

[no_one]

My goodness there are a lot of very stupid people on these forums. All the government has done is purchase the copyright to the flag and as such it is freely available for anyone to obtain one and display it. It does not mean that it has become the official flag of the country!!!! One day this country will have to come to terms with its past but for now put your racist attitudes away and just let First Nations people have this moment.


It actually is an official flag of the country, recognised by the flags act since 1995....

[tail wheel]

The Aboriginal Flag was designed by Aboriginal artist Harold Thomas in 1971.

The rights to the flag were owned by non Aboriginal company WAM Clothing, who were the licensed owner of the image.

The Federal Government acquired the copyright and the flag is now available freely for all Austlians to use. But it is not our National Flag.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-25/aboriginal-flag-who-is-harold-thomas/100779922

[Ken Borough]

The RSA had two official languages. One side of SAA's aircraft carried English, the other carried Afrikaans. Apart from that, bi
both sides were identica were they not!

[sumtingwong]

It appears there is a long way to go. That said, it is encouraging to see that some progress is being made in a few areas.

What a poor attempt at virtue signalling. Its the usual self righteous crap we’ve come to expect from Karens with nothing better to do.

It appears there is a long way to go? There it is. You’re already there….obviously, and the rest of us who may disagree, have a long way to catch up to you. At least you can be heartened at some progress being made, perhaps we can all grow up to be just like you eh?

I bet you say “correct” when someone says something you agree with. As if it wasn’t the truth until you confirmed it was. Hail Mr Proach o arbiter of truth.

I doubt there has ever been a time where there are more insufferable useful idiots on the planet than there are now. The yawning chasm between their impression of their intellect and the actual is so wide that no amount of moral posturing or preening could hope to fill it.

Wanna know how we know this? The first comment that disagreed with you, you played the race card. Game over Karen.

[das Uber Soldat]

Didn't Qantas solve racism years ago?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/image_f6878a4e91090a51b1348da828b37c7bd0b15ee2.png

[Mr Proach]

Didn't Qantas solve racism years ago?

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x683/image_f6878a4e91090a51b1348da828b37c7bd0b15ee2.png
That took longer than expected.

[wombat watcher]

The Aboriginal Flag was designed by Aboriginal artist Harold Thomas in 1971.

The rights to the flag were owned by non Aboriginal company WAM Clothing, who were the licensed owner of the image.

The Federal Government acquired the copyright and the flag is now available freely for all Austlians to use. But it is not our National Flag.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-25/aboriginal-flag-who-is-harold-thomas/100779922

geeez,
It is very confusing when someone inserts the facts.
​​​​​​…………..

​​​​​…not

[Mr Proach]

Internationally we should be recognized under one flag, the Australian Flag.
Why shouldn't the Aboriginal flag be recognised internationally?

[Mr Proach]

As for the "Invasion Day", where would they be if we hadn't "invaded"? The previous 50,000 years weren't all that productive.
In your opinion, has the first nation's people quality of life improved or deteriorated since British occupation?

[cameltruck]

I kinda already like the Blue Ensign, and the Red Ensign, and the lighter RAF Ensign, it even links us back to the language we speak (or should that be spoke).

But we already have an Australian flag...

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/600x347/boxing_kangaroo_flag_1_62c4da815e0dcccb2e7c4ff937aa33bc6bbbc 884.jpg

Dunno why it uses the colours of the Brazilian soccer team though.

[43Inches]

I kinda already like the Blue Ensign, and the Red Ensign, and the lighter RAF Ensign, it even links us back to the language we speak (or should that be spoke).

If you are referring to the Union Jack as English you might just be offending the Irish and Scottish parts that make up the flag. The Union Jack represents the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, four separate countries each with unique language. The English flag is just the cross of St George. At the time of of the Australian flags creation the United Kingdom included the entire Kingdom of Ireland. So what language should we be spoking to each other? English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Scots Gaelic or Welsh? I personally prefer Welsh, although I hear of late that Urdu is competing for the national language of England.

[dr dre]

Why shouldn't the Aboriginal flag be recognised internationally?

There's nothing saying additional flags can't be flown on airliners. The most prominent example is the EU flag, which adorns a lot of EU based carriers alongside their national flag. Some Caribbean carriers fly the Caribbean Community flag as well.

Australia's most prominent International Sporting event is the Australian Open, on right now. I can see at the presentation ceremonies they have the Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Flags displayed alongside the Australian flag with equal prominence. So like it or not the Aboriginal and TSI flags are being put on display as equal national flags as symbols of the nation by a lot of private businesses, state or local governments, national sporting teams and private citizens. Tourists to the nation (when they were/will be here) see these two additional flags being used alongside the national flag in a lot of places.

The decision by any Australian airline to place either flag on one of their aircraft (or none at all) is their own decision as they are all private companies, and there's not much anyone who would be opposed to such a move could do to stop them.

The Union Jack represents the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, four separate countries each with unique language. The English flag is just the cross of St George.

Just to be brutally technical the Union Jack only represents the nations of England, Scotland and the whole of Ireland. Northern Ireland and Wales have no representation on that flag. They are the crosses of St George, a 3rd century Roman Emperor's guard, St Patrick, a 5th century Roman/Irish missionary and St Andrew, a 1st century apostle and fisherman in Judea. Absolutely none of them had anything whatsoever to do with the nation of Australia by the way.

[deja vu]

GREAT NEWS!! The ABORIGINAL (First Nations People) FLAG is now freely available for use by the general public. I trust that Qantas (and others), an Australian airline, in the Spirit of Australia will paint the Aboriginal Flag on it's aircraft as matter or priority. Wouldn't it be great for the flag to be seen at airports around the nation and the globe.
I really see no reason why members of the aviation community should not be proportionally dumb as the general population out there, so why should I be surprised.

[Doors Off]

Well Trolled, very well trolled. Sadly you had way too many bites. Move along now and let us call out the Supreme Leader of Western Korea and ignominious waste of tax payers money to issue millions in RAT for return to school.

[Icarus2001]

The decision by any Australian airline to place either flag on one of their aircraft (or none at all) is their own decision as they are all private companies, Last time I looked Qantas, Rex and Alliance were PUBLIC companies.

[Mr Proach]

What a poor attempt at virtue signalling. Its the usual self righteous crap we’ve come to expect from Karens with nothing better to do.

It appears there is a long way to go? There it is. You’re already there….obviously, and the rest of us who may disagree, have a long way to catch up to you. At least you can be heartened at some progress being made, perhaps we can all grow up to be just like you eh?

I bet you say “correct” when someone says something you agree with. As if it wasn’t the truth until you confirmed it was. Hail Mr Proach o arbiter of truth.

I doubt there has ever been a time where there are more insufferable useful idiots on the planet than there are now. The yawning chasm between their impression of their intellect and the actual is so wide that no amount of moral posturing or preening could hope to fill it.

Wanna know how we know this? The first comment that disagreed with you, you played the race card. Game over Karen.

I don't usually say "correct", I don't have a consistent response, I might respond with something like: "That is my view" or "That's also my opinion". If I am doing times tables with the grand children and they respond with the answer I agree with, then I will use "correct". By the way when you write "we", are you representing a group of people? I don't agree with everything that you wrote however, thanks for your contribution.

[dr dre]

Last time I looked Qantas, Rex and Alliance were PUBLIC companies.

Yes, I meant publicly listed companies answerable to their shareholders. Not Government owned or run companies.

If these airlines painted Aboriginal and TSI flags on their aircraft it would be the shareholders who will ultimately judge those actions.

I remember airlines copping some flack from the usual sources against the Same Sex Marriage campaign in 2017. One even painted a rainbow emblem on one aircraft. They also made a billion dollar profit. I don't think the shareholders cared too much, nor did the traveling public, nor did the employees, because they all didn't walk out in protest.

That's probably what the reaction will be to any painting of Aboriginal and TSI flags on any Australian airliner, after all the usual cries of "Politically Correct Woke Nonsense!" have subsided.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The ABORIGINAL (First Nations People) FLAG is now freely available for use by the general public
Let's see how long that lasts.

[SID PLATE]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x1175/img_4616_276a65a0fb1c5f92b798d489911a42e6c733b818.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x855/img_4617_ee745728fa1dc506934c134473a3b3a9e582f140.jpg
Ireland's biggest airline doesn't use the Irish national flag.

The current tail logo is the top picture. The original suggestion for a logo is below, until O'Leary intervened. Spot the difference ?

[sumtingwong]

By the way when you write "we", are you representing a group of people?.

How dare you/them/ze/zat/slap question my pronouns.

[OldLurker]

Ireland's biggest airline doesn't use the Irish national flag.Yes, it does. It uses the national flag of the country of registration, so it puts the Irish national flag beside the registration letters on its Irish (EI-) registered aircraft.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/976x549/_113564765_ryanairepa_7ab67bf478446c806a0e07ead3b21d0791bd50 2c.jpg

[tail wheel]

"Why shouldn't the Aboriginal flag be recognised internationally?"

Each country has only one National Flag. The Aboriginal Flag represents our Aboriginal people, estimated 864,000 of our 25 million population, or 3.5% of our population. The Torres Strait Flag represents the interests of our 38,700 TI Islanders, or 0.15% of our population.

We also have nine official flags representing each of our States and Territories. How many flags do you think Australia should expect to be recognized internationally? How many flags do you want placarded on the side of Qantas aircraft?

We are proudly a nation with diverse ethnic and cultural heritages, but in all respects internationally Australia is ONE Nation with ONE recognized National flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_flag

[minigundiplomat]

Mr Proach is either an insufferable tool or has a world leading trolling game.

[Ascend Charlie]

In your opinion, has the first nation's people quality of life improved or deteriorated since British occupation?

Well, from your high horse you could perhaps see that they are no longer seen to be running naked around the bush throwing bent sticks at kangaroos.

[TriJetFlying]

Mr Proach is either an insufferable tool or has a world leading trolling game.

or, you could’ve said. A silly old lefty fool.

[Mr Proach]

or, you could’ve said. A silly old lefty fool.
Why do you make that statement.

[Cat3508]

Each country has only one National Flag. The Aboriginal Flag represents our Aboriginal people, estimated 864,000 of our 25 million population, or 3.5% of our population. The Torres Strait Flag represents the interests of our 38,700 TI Islanders, or 0.15% of our population.

We also have nine official flags representing each of our States and Territories. How many flags do you think Australia should expect to be recognized internationally? How many flags do you want placarded on the side of Qantas aircraft?

We are proudly a nation with diverse ethnic and cultural heritages, but in all respects internationally Australia is ONE Nation with ONE recognized National flag.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_flag


Finally, an erudite and correct answer to the whole subject. I do wish we had a like button

[Mr Proach]

How many flags do you want placarded on the side of Qantas aircraft?
It is not really a matter of what I want however, in my view I consider it would be appropriate to add the Aboriginal flag in the context of the definition of "aboriginal". From the posts, I am gaining the impression it is viewed as some kind of threat to the national identity.

[Mr Proach]

Mr Proach is either an insufferable tool or has a world leading trolling game.
I don't really understand what a "world leading trolling game" is. Would you explain what it is please?

[Cravenmorehead]

True tail wheel et al, the current flag is the one you have posted. This does not mean we should not investigate a change from an outdated flag one which has represented a time when the indigenous people were treated badly by our forbearers. People associate Qantas with Australia and by putting the Torres Strait and First Nations flag on the aircraft it will make them familiar with the symbol and what it means to them and me a white second generation Australian who is proud of our indigenous people.
Just a thought.

[MickG0105]

It is not really a matter of what I want however, in my view I consider it would be appropriate to add the Aboriginal flag in the context of the definition of "aboriginal". From the posts, I am gaining the impression it is viewed as some kind of threat to the national identity.
The Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag both have equal status. It would be quite inappropriate to "add the Aboriginal flag" without also adding the Torres Strait Islander flag.

[MickG0105]

Each country has only one National Flag.

For every rule, an exception. Since 2009 Bolivia has had two national flags; the red-yellow-green horizontal tricolor with the Bolivian coat of arms in the center, and the southern Qullasuyu Wiphala (looks like a low-res colour test pattern).

[43Inches]

Interesting to also note that the Union Flag/Jack is not the official flag of the UK, it's has just come to represent it by its widespread use in the Navy. So now by default everyone regards it as the flag of the UK and England as it was a regular sight on any British warship, and British warships were everywhere at one point. England has it's own national flag separate to the Union Flag. The only law that was decreed was that non British navy ships could not display any flag or pennant regularly used by the navy, which included the "Jack".

Just to be brutally technical the Union Jack only represents the nations of England, Scotland and the whole of Ireland. Northern Ireland and Wales have no representation on that flag. They are the crosses of St George, a 3rd century Roman Emperor's guard, St Patrick, a 5th century Roman/Irish missionary and St Andrew, a 1st century apostle and fisherman in Judea. Absolutely none of them had anything whatsoever to do with the nation of Australia by the way.

Wales was annexed before national flags were a thing, however the Tudor coat of arms had a set of Welsh Dragons added to signify the event. Unfortunately we all know the Tudor line was discontinued so that link was severed.

Interesting to see the Ryanair lyre shaped lady is very close to the lyre symbol the Protectorate under Cromwell used on their short lived flag, due to the association with the Kingdom of Ireland (the harp flag). So Ryanair is flying both the Irish national flag, next to the rego, and a representation of the old Kingdom of Ireland flag on the tail.

[dr dre]

True tail wheel et al, the current flag is the one you have posted. This does not mean we should not investigate a change from an outdated flag one which has represented a time when the indigenous people were treated badly by our forbearers. People associate Qantas with Australia and by putting the Torres Strait and First Nations flag on the aircraft it will make them familiar with the symbol and what it means to them and me a white second generation Australian who is proud of our indigenous people.
Just a thought.

There's really two issues at play in this thread.

One, should airlines paint the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags on aircraft alongside the current National flag, as they were recognised as "Flags of Australia" under the Flags Act by Bill Hayden in 1995? Just like multiple carriers have the EU flag painted alongside their national flag, or the Caribbean Community flag, or other international visible displays of Australia (like the AO tennis) display the Aboriginal and TSI flags alongside the national flag? Or remove all flags from aircraft like Air NZ?

Two, should the current Australian national flag be changed? Really that's a full on debate well beyond the scope of this thread, but I found this video interesting. Whilst aesthetically the new flag design in the video wouldn't be my first choice the creator of the video has some very good points and a thorough knowledge of the symbology and meaning of his design:

The Triple Union Flag | The case for a new Australian flag

One could say a new national flag would negate the desire to display the additional flags on aircraft or at events or businesses.

[Mr Proach]

The Aboriginal flag and the Torres Strait Islander flag both have equal status. It would be quite inappropriate to "add the Aboriginal flag" without also adding the Torres Strait Islander flag.
Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?

[43Inches]

My opinion is that the Jack should be removed from the corner and the 7 point star enlarged and its done. The aboriginal flag is a flag for that group of people as with the flag for for the TSI peoples. Those flags should be flown alongside the Australian flag at events etc out of respect but there is no need to go overboard with plating flags all over planes for every group that might be involved.

Removing the Jack gets rid of any historical issues that arise from colonisation/invasion or however you see it. Therefor the flag will then just represent us being in the southern hemisphere, and having seven states as one, surrounded by the blue of the ocean. When you bring heritage and other racial notions into the flag you cause division.

[Torukmacto]

Seven states as one ? That’s false advertising.

[43Inches]

On one island. They have never acted as one nation, maybe a short time during ww2. Federation was started by businesses that wanted to get rid of inter-colony taxes, nothing to do with being one people. Business leaders just used the masses to get support for the idea, as usual.

[Torukmacto]

On one island. They have never acted as one nation, maybe a short time during ww2. Federation was started by businesses that wanted to get rid of inter-colony taxes, nothing to do with being one people. Business leaders just used the masses to get support for the idea, as usual.

Time might be approaching where we need to think about a bit more cohesion? Maybe a change in head of state will be a good time to have a discussion ?

[cameltruck]

So what language should we be spoking to each other? English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Scots Gaelic or Welsh?

You missed one, Latin.

Then there is that obscure language only heard to be spoke by farmers to other farmers and nobody else. Deserves a flag all it's own methinks.

[43Inches]

Only the Toffs and Cloth speak Latin. You could throw in hand signals from the mills, where the only hearing protection was to go deaf quickly, then you didn't notice the noise, and whistles language from the shipyards and construction.

[Cravenmorehead]

I like the alternate flag in the video that dr dre posted and I think one with the Southern Cross and Aboriginal and Torres Strait flags equally represented.
It is time we became a Republic- although the models proposed are somewhat flawed-and a new flag.

[Cravenmorehead]

Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?

Yes it does.
We prefer nowadays to refer to them as First Nations.

[Torukmacto]

When the Australian flag is flown alongside state flags is it bigger and flown higher than the state flags ?

[MickG0105]

Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?
Not so far as Torres Strait Islanders are concerned. That's why they have their own flag.

[MickG0105]

When the Australian flag is flown alongside state flags is it bigger and flown higher than the state flags ?
Unless things have changed since I was in the military, I don't think that that is correct. All flags should typically be the same size. The only time that the Australian national flag would be flown higher than state flags is if there is one flag pole that is higher than the others; that is not usually the case. Precedence is usually determined by the position of the flag relative to others rather than the size and height of the flags.

https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-centre/government/australian-flags-booklet

[Torukmacto]

Unless things have changed since I was in the military, I don't think that that is correct. All flags should typically be the same size. The only time that the Australian national flag would be flown higher than state flags is if there is one flag pole that is higher than the others; that is not usually the case. Precedence is usually determined by the position of the flag relative to others rather than the size and height of the flags.

https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-centre/government/australian-flags-booklet
Thanks , new a military man would respond . Many things to discuss about changes but the national flag should be bigger and higher than all others .

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Yes it does.
We prefer nowadays to refer to them as First Nations.

I realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these ‘nations’? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation?

And isn’t this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?

[dr dre]

Removing the Jack gets rid of any historical issues that arise from colonisation/invasion or however you see it.

It also removes a piece of poor symbolism. The Canton, upper left corner, is the part of the flag that is always on top. When a flag hanging off a flag pole is drooping in low wind the Canton will always be in the superior position. Every other part of the flag is in an inferior position.

So rather than representing history or heritage the positioning of the Union Jack in the canton is a direct symbol of UK dominance over the other parts of the flag, including the Commonwealth Star which represents the Australian States and Territories. The Australian national flag directly symbolises the UK being above Australia. Even the Department of the Prime Minister's website states the canton is the position of honour (https://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/australian-flags-part-2.pdf) on the flag.

[Torukmacto]

It also removes a piece of poor symbolism. The Canton, upper left corner, is the part of the flag that is always on top. When a flag hanging off a flag pole is drooping in low wind the Canton will always be in the superior position. Every other part of the flag is in an inferior position.

So rather than representing history or heritage the positioning of the Union Jack in the canton is a direct symbol of UK dominance over the other parts of the flag, including the Commonwealth Star which represents the Australian States and Territories. The Australian national flag directly symbolises the UK being above Australia. Even the Department of the Prime Minister's website states the canton is the position of honour (https://www.pmc.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/australian-flags-part-2.pdf) on the flag.
not wanting to bore you guys and gals but this needs to change !

[neville_nobody]

realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these ‘nations’? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation? And isn’t this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?

Don't forget they were not united either. Plenty of groups still don't even get on today.

[dr dre]

I realise this is now becoming the fashionable term, but what exactly were these ‘nations’? Can a nomadic tribe realistically be considered a nation?

And isn’t this just something which has been appropriated from Native Americans?

Nation as opposed to nation-state. A nation is a group of people who share common language, culture, traditions. Whereas a nation state includes a central government and defined borders.

First nation people can be used interchangeably with Indigenous people, Native people, First people etc.

So yes, a culture based on a semi nomadic lifestyle (Australian Aborigines moved locations on a cycle), with a system of governance and trade and relations with other groups is considered a nation.

In fact, the first international relations out of Australia, so the first time Australians dealt with those overseas, was not conducted by descendants of the the British settlers post 1788. It was peaceful trade conducted as early as the 16th or 17th centuries between Indigenous Australians in Arnhem Land and Makassans from Sulawesi in now Indonesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassan_contact_with_Australia), well before Captain Cook had laid eyes on the country. Products traded by indigenous Australians ended up being sold in China, so Australia's tradition of selling stuff to the big country up north has been going on far longer than people realise.

So you could say it's more appropriate for the Australian vessels of trade to carry the symbol of the first Australian traders, rather than a symbol which displays the nation that came here a few hundred years later to do it in second place.

[Ascend Charlie]

A nation is a group of people who share common language, culture, traditions.

Well that rules the Poms out, the dialects from the different parts of those frigid islands are almost incomprehensible to the rest. USA not much better.

And there sure as heck isn't a common language for the aboriginals.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

A nation is a group of people who share common language, culture, traditions.

In which case my family is a nation, as is my football team and my fleet at work.

[tail wheel]

It is not really a matter of what I want however, in my view I consider it would be appropriate to add the Aboriginal flag in the context of the definition of "aboriginal". From the posts, I am gaining the impression it is viewed as some kind of threat to the national identity.

Mr Proach, not at all. The Aboriginal flag (or Torres Strait flag or most of the State and Territory flags) would be meaningless at the overseas destinations serviced by Qantas.

But if we are going to plaster our Flag Carrier national airline with flags of all significant groups, please make sure all the States and Territory flags are also included.

And don't forget this one to add a bit of colour:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1258/hutt_river_province_5c538ae5fd20601e08d1c9bf33c088b7938e1208 .jpg

Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?

The definition of the word "Aboriginal" is:

inhabiting or existing in a land from the earliest times or from before the arrival of colonists; indigenous.

By that definition it may appear Torres Strait Islanders are "aboriginal" although a more accurate term may be that both groups are indigenous. However, Aboriginal people are Australo-Melanesians or Australoid, whilst Torres Strait Islanders are Melanesian, more related to the PNG races.

[43Inches]

In fact, the first international relations out of Australia, so the first time Australians dealt with those overseas, was not conducted by descendants of the the British settlers post 1788. It was peaceful trade conducted as early as the 16th or 17th centuries between Indigenous Australians in Arnhem Land and Makassans from Sulawesi in now Indonesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makassan_contact_with_Australia), well before Captain Cook had laid eyes on the country. Products traded by indigenous Australians ended up being sold in China, so Australia's tradition of selling stuff to the big country up north has been going on far longer than people realise.

The first 'Englishman' (recorded) to have encountered Australian Aborigines would have been William Dampier, North West Australian coast, in January 1688, a full 100 years before the first fleet and 80 years prior to Cook.

He has the dubious account of creating a stereotype of them that persisted until even today from the book that was produced from his journals, and most likely helped attribute 'terra nullius' in conjunction with Cooks accounts. He rounded up several of the locals in an attempt to make them work carrying their water back to the ship. Called them a 'miserable lot' when they had no clue what he asked of them so did not comply, and writes with indignation "So we were forced to carry our own water back to our ship..." That shame of not being able to force the locals into slave labor for the day, how rude of them. He also made sketches of the event that have been found in his journals.

In any case this all happened not far from an island named after Dirk Harthog (Dutch), who had visited the area in 1616. The aborigines that Dampier encountered did have evidence of having traded with other Europeans, such as the Dutch, and has more accounts from the journal of his HMS Roebuck expedition that explored the north end more thoroughly from 1699. Dampiers books and journals are a good read, he definitely was before the age of political correctness, so expect some interesting commentary. Dampier had a number of times where his crew mutinied or just left him behind on an island, so I assume he was not the most charismatic leader.

[Icarus2001]

We prefer nowadays to refer to them as First Nations. Who is “we”?

Would that be the revisionist left wing media, ABC and guardian readers?

[dr dre]

Who is “we”?

Would that be the revisionist left wing media, ABC and guardian readers?

No, actually the right wing conservative Prime Minister (https://www.pm.gov.au/media/address-closing-gap-statement-parliament):

What I know is that to rob a person of their right to take responsibility for themselves; to strip them of responsibility and capability to direct their own futures; to make them dependent - this is to deny them of their liberty - and slowly that person will wither before your eyes.

That’s what we did to our First Nations people

[Count of Monte Bisto]

A fascinating discussion. I am Scottish, and therefore part of the oppressed peoples of the North whose culture has been subsumed by the evil English etc, etc here in Great Britain, the motherland for all you upside down folks there down under. For those of you not familiar with our own internal struggles, Scotland is now run by the SNP (Scottish Numpty Party) led by the redoubtable Nicola Sturgeon. She gives her waking hours to dreaming of cats wearing sporrans around their necks, dogs sporting kilts and scheduling Braveheart termly showings for school children - lest they forget their heritage and the oppression they have lived under without actually knowing it. What it has shown me is that looking backwards is never going to end well. I was brought up on a diet of Scottish battles that invariably involved glorious defeat by the wicked English hordes. The problem was it turned out there was a world out there that no one bothered to tell me about. No one took the time to speak of the rows of Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English soldiers who died next to each other in the trenches of World War 1 or the numerous foreign battlegrounds of World War 2. The Commonwealth graves around the world are lined with soldiers of every nation who fought alongside each other and came to an untimely end - including a fair number of Australians as well. We have fought as one and are all the better for it. Have the Scots always been treated well? Absolutely not. Have the Aborigines always been treated fairly? Almost certainly not. Undoubtedly they were there first and had us Brits not exported our criminals to you lot, then this may have been a very different discussion. It would probably not be taking place here, however, as you would have no airline industry to talk of.

The simple fact is that we all have a history - hence the flags of Australia and New Zealand. I get you might want to break away from your past with us, but be careful what you wish for. I massively admire so much in Australia, but you are in danger of becoming ashamed of all aspects of your culture. Your culture is not just aboriginal - it is mixed inextricably now with British, European, Oriental and Middle Eastern culture now too. That is increasingly who we all are. Are you all about to deport yourselves back to Serbia to join Djokovic in shame that you exist? Sure, be aware of your cultural history, but dreaming of a return to the 'good ole days' before oppression began is difficult. None of you want to oppress the Aborigines now. The question is how best to help them help themselves. You cannot keep them 'racially pure' any more than you would entertain the idea of keeping the white population racially pure. Get a new flag by all means, but if it means pretending you have no other culture other than Aboriginal, it does an enormous disservice to all the other cultures you now have in your midst. Wait and see the arguments you have about what flag to replace the current one with and how divisive they will become. Whatever you choose will open Pandora's Box and it will not end well. Putting an Aboriginal flag on Qantas aircraft is fine - maybe best to think of a few other people who have made a contribution to Australian life as well and honour them too.

[BEACH KING]

Now.. there is a voice of reason!
Well said!

[wombat watcher]

A fascinating discussion. I am Scottish, and therefore part of the oppressed peoples of the North whose culture has been subsumed by the evil English etc, etc here in Great Britain, the motherland for all you upside down folks there down under. For those of you not familiar with our own internal struggles, Scotland is now run by the SNP (Scottish Numpty Party) led by the redoubtable Nicola Sturgeon. She gives her waking hours to dreaming of cats wearing sporrans around their necks, dogs sporting kilts and scheduling Braveheart termly showings for school children - lest they forget their heritage and the oppression they have lived under without actually knowing it. What it has shown me is that looking backwards is never going to end well. I was brought up on a diet of Scottish battles that invariably involved glorious defeat by the wicked English hordes. The problem was it turned out there was a world out there that no one bothered to tell me about. No one took the time to speak of the rows of Scottish, Welsh, Irish and English soldiers who died next to each other in the trenches of World War 1 or the numerous foreign battlegrounds of World War 2. The Commonwealth graves around the world are lined with soldiers of every nation who fought alongside each other and came to an untimely end - including a fair number of Australians as well. We have fought as one and are all the better for it. Have the Scots always been treated well? Absolutely not. Have the Aborigines always been treated fairly? Almost certainly not. Undoubtedly they were there first and had us Brits not exported our criminals to you lot, then this may have been a very different discussion. It would probably not be taking place here, however, as you would have no airline industry to talk of.

The simple fact is that we all have a history - hence the flags of Australia and New Zealand. I get you might want to break away from your past with us, but be careful what you wish for. I massively admire so much in Australia, but you are in danger of becoming ashamed of all aspects of your culture. Your culture is not just aboriginal - it is mixed inextricably now with British, European, Oriental and Middle Eastern culture now too. That is increasingly who we all are. Are you all about to deport yourselves back to Serbia to join Djokovic in shame that you exist? Sure, be aware of your cultural history, but dreaming of a return to the 'good ole days' before oppression began is difficult. None of you want to oppress the Aborigines now. The question is how best to help them help themselves. You cannot keep them 'racially pure' any more than you would entertain the idea of keeping the white population racially pure. Get a new flag by all means, but if it means pretending you have no other culture other than Aboriginal, it does an enormous disservice to all the other cultures you now have in your midst. Wait and see the arguments you have about what flag to replace the current one with and how divisive they will become. Whatever you choose will open Pandora's Box and it will not end well. Putting an Aboriginal flag on Qantas aircraft is fine - maybe best to think of a few other people who have made a contribution to Australian life as well and honour them too.

some of us are happy with the way we are. We are not seeking change.
A lot of change ends up as worse. How about Rhodesia and even South Africa as examples let alone places like the Belgian Congo etc. How about Yugoslavia? How about PNG?

[43Inches]

Unfortunately change happens to you whether you accept it or not. The Aborigines were quite happy unchanging for thousands of years, until someone else decided to change them, and they had no say in the matter as they had not changed enough to keep up with the modern world and it's ways. You can accept and try to control the change, or remain what will inevitably considered backwards and irrelevant, you are then at the mercy of being overtaken by someone else. If the world decides for now it likes backwards and nostalgia, fine, but if that changes and the world decides it wants to move forward and change that, you better be at the forefront leading it, or be consigned to history and squatting on someones front lawn in rags, bitter and telling everyone how it used to be.

[cameltruck]

What it has shown me is that looking backwards is never going to end well.

Never has a truer word been spoken.

Y'know, before the information age the only people that used to prattle on about the achievements of their ancestors were often the underachievers themselves.

Nowadays, it appears that every single minority group, and not just ethnic, wants to be heard and validated in the public eye, it's as if all these groups are talking all at once but none of them want to hear the other person's story, they only want everyone to just hear them. I blame it on their miserable lives of having their heads buried in their phones allowing them to quite selectively and easily ally with the minority group of their moment.

How many "just" causes can the general public contend with at the same time, there must be a finite limit, and it's all getting a bit tired, repetitive and indistinct.

You can change the flag 100 times until it finally becomes completely meaningless and people stop caring.

[dr dre]

The simple fact is that we all have a history - hence the flags of Australia and New Zealand. ........ Wait and see the arguments you have about what flag to replace the current one with and how divisive they will become. Whatever you choose will open Pandora's Box and it will not end well.

Like I mentioned before the flags of nations which were former outposts of Britain, and had the Union Jack as the dominant symbol in their canton, were changed without provoking a civil war. nor did any of the nations involved have their history wiped from memory when the flag changed too.

Let's take Canada as the prime example, similar to Australia, a Commonwealth nation, sent over 100,000 soldiers to die in WW1 and 2, still a constitutional monarchy, mostly Anglo Saxon population until the 60s and 70s when non Caucasian migration increased. In 1965 their flag was changed. Now whilst there seems to have been a robust debate in parliament, sides both for and against change and many competing designs no riots or violence occurred nor did the Canadian nation disintegrate during the debate. Their original flag was a red ensign with the union jack in the corner, and a mess of a shield on the fly side, containing multiple UK and French symbols clumped together with a maple leaf. Honestly couldn't tell if it was the Flag of Canada or a yacht club flag.

Now the Canadians have a flag that is clean, striking and uniquely identifiable as Canadian. One of the best national flags in the world. There's a reason why every Canadian backpacker seems to have one sewn onto their backpack (apart from distinguishing themselves from Americans of course).

The flag is probably a concurrent issue with the other debates ongoing about Australian identity at the moment, the national day and ultimately the question of Republic or Monarchy (probably will be reignited after the death of the Queen). We've already had quite a "woke Politically Correct" change recently to a key part of Australian symbology, the national anthem. Changed from "for we are young and free" to "for we are one and free", acknowledging Australian Indigenous culture as the world's longest continuous culture.

Now here's one with an aviation theme that's slipped under the radar in the last few days but will no doubt get some riled up here:

Social media profiles for major airlines like Qantas and Virgin Australia have remained silent this Australia Day. (https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/travel/qantas-virgin-silent-on-australia-day-celebrations-despite-raafs-aerial-shows/news-story/53fce60d2725b96345cdd926431738f2)

Just a few years ago those companies were handing out Tim Tams, Lamingtons and Meat Pies on the day, now not even a peep. I've detected a fairly rapid shift in thinking in just the last year or two regarding the 26th, even a lot of those who aren't particularly "woke" are just not feeling the Aussie spirit on the 26th as they used to.

Not just airlines, 99 out of the top 100 ASX listed companies did not mention "Australia Day" (https://ntegrity.com.au/blog/australia-day-2022) on January 26th this year. Given that little tidbit the years left for January 26th remaining as Australia's national day are probably finite.

[Keg]

A new Aussie flag isn’t going to see the retirement of either the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander flags irrespective of how much of those designs are incorporated into the new flag.

So thinking a new flag will ‘unite’ the nation behind a new symbol is foolish given both those other flags are likely to remain cherished and in use by those who feel they best represent them.

[dr dre]

A new Aussie flag isn’t going to see the retirement of either the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander flags irrespective of how much of those designs are incorporated into the new flag.

So thinking a new flag will ‘unite’ the nation behind a new symbol is foolish given both those other flags are likely to remain cherished and in use by those who feel they best represent them.

I don't think anyone advocating for changing the flag has a desire to end use of the Aboriginal or TSI flags completely. Those flags will always be around.

At the end of the day it isn't so much "uniting" people behind a flag. In an increasingly globalised world (well once borders open again fully) the notions of nationalism and patriotism and the symbols behind them are becoming irrelevant for a lot of people. Australia has never been a culture where people are quite openly patriotic. And in some ways the current flag has taken on a divisive tone in recent years, a symbol of that far right "patriot" movement.

But countries do have flags, and in the modern, multicultural Australia a flag with a Union Jack in the canton to signify dominance of the UK over Australia is hardly appropriate or relevant outside of the 1788-1901 timeframe, let alone 2022. When governments tend to be slow acting corporations sometimes take the lead on social change. We saw this with the SSM campaign, and we're seeing it now with Indigenous Recognition. Airlines not mentioning "Australia Day" on January 26th, airlines making Acknowledgment of Country announcements, airlines using Indigenous place names alongside European ones. Would not adding Indigenous and TSI flags to aircraft, or removing the national flag from aircraft (just like BA, AF and Air NZ) be a continuation of this trend?

[tail wheel]

"...the motherland for all you upside down folks there down under.'

Not quite Mate! Australia has an amazing ethnic diversity with many of us tracing our heritage back to Scotland, in my case Paisley.

Of course we also have many ex Poms (some of us would say too many), originally (240 years ago) as free labour to build our first towns, now essential to welcome the English Cricket Team to yet another English loss in the Ashes series and to fill senior Trade Union positions.

"I get you might want to break away from your past with us, but be careful what you wish for. I massively admire so much in Australia, but you are in danger of becoming ashamed of all aspects of your culture. Your culture is not just aboriginal - it is mixed inextricably now with British, European, Oriental and Middle Eastern culture now too. That is increasingly who we all are."

Very well said my friend! :ok:

[animal53]

It would appear that QF inflight PA,s are now acknowledging the traditional owners of the airport land used for the flight. No problem with that but wouldn't an acknowledgement of the Wright Brothers and Frank Whittle be more appropriate?

[Ascend Charlie]

It would appear that QF inflight PA,s are now acknowledging the traditional owners of the airport land used for the flight.

What a waste of electrons. Do they acknowledge the people who had the foresight to use the land as an airport? Do they acknowledge the makers of the plane that keeps them up in the air? Acknowledge Humphrey Davey for identifying the gases in the atmosphere?

[Scooter Rassmussin]

It would appear that QF inflight PA,s are now acknowledging the traditional owners of the airport land used for the flight. No problem with that but wouldn't an acknowledgement of the Wright Brothers and Frank Whittle be more appropriate?


Very good point.
Also do we need to acknowledge the Chinese and the land they now own , we cannot afford to offend them , Darwin port for example .
The PAs are just going to get some passengers backs up possibly leading to inflight disruptions, best to leave it alone .

[43Inches]

If you don't like how a business operates, don't use that service. They will change or go out of business from lack of customers if its that big a deal. You have the power to change things, or are you all in the group that fill up with whatever priced petrol even if its 30 cpl higher than the one across the road. I have to say Australians can be some of the dumbest consumers on the planet due to the wealth of the average punter, I'll just pay triple for that, because, um that brands ads are better, or its some sort of national brand.

[Mr Proach]

This topic has generated lot of interesting information on vexillology and a range of viewpoints regarding colonial history and multiculturalism etc. It seems the Aboriginal flag doesn't display the symbology of political history unlike some other flags do e.g. Union Jack. Maybe this is due the fact they are the original inhabitants of Australia so there isn't a predecessor to refer to unless you enter into the realm of science and religion. Also of note, is the Aboriginal flag doesn't include symbology about the recent occupation of their land, so in that sense it is apolitical. To me, this flag simply represents the existence of a people who were here a very long time before the British occupation (250 years versus 50,000 years). In my view, the very fact that vexillology even exists is evidence of the significance that people place on flags. Previously, there were conditions restricting the use of the Aboriginal flag which has been removed. I think it would be an appropriate and positive measure for this flag to become something that is readily and widely recognised as being associated with Australia.

[Chronic Snoozer]

And yet the flag only appeared in 1971......

[Gne]

What? About the same time as that traditional dot painting style.
Gne

[megan]

mccrindle reasearch survey 2013When asked about their level of pride in Australia, 39% of Australians said they were very proud and that hadn’t changed, 31% said they were proud and getting prouder, and 23% indicated that while proud, they were less proud than they used to be.

The Australian flag has the nation’s vote for being the image or symbol about which we are most proud. 95% of Australians take pride in the national flag, which is enjoying increasing popularity, with half (50%) saying that they are extremely proud.

Almost 7 in 10 Australians (68%) are proud of the Aboriginal flag, with the Eureka flag eliciting the mixed response with 1 in 10 (10%) being extremely proud while 1 in 3 (35%) are uncomfortable with its use.

“While Australians have always been understated in their patriotic expressions, the overwhelming majority are very proud of this nation, and the sense of pride is either growing, or at least unchanged for most,” said social researcher Mark McCrindle. “The connection with the Australian flag is also notable – the highest response to it is “extremely proud” and it is the most embraced Australian symbol.”Personally I see the upper left as representing our history, why should we not acknowledge it? It's good enough for the state of Hawaii, it too represents a significant part of their history. Perhaps my view is shaped by having served under the flag, as did my Father in WWII, and a brother KIA.A new Aussie flag isn’t going to see the retirement of either the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander flags irrespective of how much of those designs are incorporated into the new flag.

So thinking a new flag will ‘unite’ the nation behind a new symbol is foolish given both those other flags are likely to remain cherished and in use by those who feel they best represent them.Amen Keg.

[Foxxster]

What? About the same time as that traditional dot painting style.
Gne

and the ‘traditional’ welcome to country and smoking ceremonies..

[Ascend Charlie]

Are there any literary, educational or other grants that are exclusively for non-aboriginal people? No?
Then why am I excluded from receiving money for things reserved for ATSI people? Such discrimination in reverse only serves to continue the Apology Grovelling and dividing our nation. We are all in it together, don't go down the Them and Us road.

[dr dre]

mccrindle reasearch survey 2013

Here's a more recent and larger survey:

The survey found 64 per cent of respondents believed the Australian flag should change, compared with 36 per cent who believed it should remain the same. (https://www.smh.com.au/national/southern-horizon-favoured-for-australiashttps://www.westernsydney.edu.au/ics/news/news_archive/2016/alternative_australian_flag_survey_results_announced-new-national-flag-survey-shows-20160126-gmdzwz.html)

Personally I see the upper left as representing our history, why should we not acknowledge it?

History is a multifaceted thing. For some it represents what they see as positive aspects of Australia's history. For a lot of Indigenous people it represents a government, a people who legally discriminated against them, denied them to right to vote, separated families, banned them from clubs, cafes and hotels (https://www.nma.gov.au/explore/features/indigenous-rights/civil-rights/freedom-ride).

[dr dre]

What? About the same time as that traditional dot painting style.
Gne

Dot painting specifically on canvas originated in the 1970's, but the tradition of Indigenous art, partly in dot style, had been done on rocks, bodies and even in the sand for about 5,000-10,000 years.


and the ‘traditional’ welcome to country and smoking ceremonies..

Nope, Welcome to Country ceremonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country) have been an established part of Indigenous culture for thousands of years, generally being kept between groups of indigenous people only, but also were made for Dutch and Indonesian explorers 300-400 years ago.

The whole fact non Indigenous Australians only became aware of such practices in the 70's may have had something to do with the social changes in Australia regarding relations between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians that occurred in the 60s and 70s. With open discrimination still pretty common, learning the cultural practices of Indigenous people wasn't a high priority for most other Australians.

[Mr Proach]

Are the Australian people really so lily-livered? Well, it seems that they are. Leave the Qantas emblem alone. It is an airline, for heaven's sake. Nothing to do with ancient history.
There is some thread drift RH however, there is no suggestion at play to alter the QA emblem.

[cameltruck]

Shouldn't an ape feature on the new flag? After all that's where it all began.

[Pinky the pilot]

Nope, Welcome to Country ceremonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country) have been an established part of Indigenous culture for thousands of years, g

An aquaintance who is currently a senior Public Servant in Canberra once informed me that they were invented by Canberra Bureaucrats in the early 70's. And so were the 'traditional smoking ceremonies'.

Make of that what you will.

My own opinion is that there were around 500 different Tribes of Indigenous Peoples existant around the time of the arrival of the First Fleet, that they all had these 'traditional' ceremonies, ie 'Welcome to Country' and 'Smoking' is indeed somewhat hard to accept.

Considering also, that it is well recorded that most Tribes simply did not get along with each others and quite often engaged in some fairly bloody battles with each other!

[zzuf]

Nope, Welcome to Country ceremonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country) have been an established part of Indigenous culture for thousands of years, generally being kept between groups of indigenous people only, but also were made for Dutch and Indonesian explorers 300-400 years ago.

True, faithfully recorded in thousands of years of written aboriginal history along with aboriginal aerodynamics texts.

[MickG0105]

...
Nope, Welcome to Country ceremonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country) have been an established part of Indigenous culture for thousands of years, generally being kept between groups of indigenous people only, but also were made for Dutch and Indonesian explorers 300-400 years ago.
I would be reluctant to rely on a Wikipedia article that contains no historical (as in, written prior to 2000) references.

[Icarus2001]

Nope, Welcome to Country ceremonies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country) have been an established part of Indigenous culture for thousands of years,

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2021/02/welcome-to-country-bogus-but-preferable/

https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-culture/2016/03/richard-walleys-welcome-to-country/

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/in-depth/ernie-dingo-claims-the-first-welcome/news-story/a19a26bd8b31e8cfde361a5db68c546f

https://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/aboriginal-art-library/aboriginal-dot-art-behind-the-dots/

Do some reading and make up your own mind, Dr Dre clearly has.

[dr dre]

https://quadrant.org.au/opinion/bennelong-papers/2021/02/welcome-to-country-bogus-but-preferable/

https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/history-culture/2016/03/richard-walleys-welcome-to-country/

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/in-depth/ernie-dingo-claims-the-first-welcome/news-story/a19a26bd8b31e8cfde361a5db68c546f

https://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/aboriginal-art-library/aboriginal-dot-art-behind-the-dots/

Do some reading and make up your own mind, Dr Dre clearly has.

So the first link (no agenda in the Quadrant eh?)

Instead, as is well if not widely known, they were created as recently as the 1970’s by none other than Ernie Dingo and his cobber, Dr Richard Walley

However if that "journalist" had bothered to actually check what Dr Walley had said about the practice he apparently created:

“It’s an old thing that’s been around for thousands and thousands of years,” Richard Walley OAM told NITV News over criticism Thursday by an historian that Welcome to Country ceremonies are new rituals.

“It’s the new interpretation of it that’s quite recent, but it’s connected to something that’s quite ancient.”

Dr Walley never claimed to have created Welcome to Country, just start the modern interpretation into mainstream Australia of a long held tradition

The Australian Geographic article:

For thousands of years Aboriginal people have performed a type of ‘Welcome to Country’ ceremony when one tribal group sought to enter the lands of another. This traditional protocol took many forms, it could be spoken, sung, performed and possibly there would be a smoking ceremony, depending on the traditions of the local group.

Almost exactly 40 years ago these ceremonies first began to enter the Australian mainstream after a performance by West Australian Richard Walley and the Middar Theatre at the Perth International Arts Festival (which is on again for another few days) of 1976.

Yep that's pretty much what I said

In an aviation context some airlines are performing Acknowledgment of Country on flights, not Welcome to Country so this debate is a bit redundant anyway

As for the dot art article:

Before Indigenous Australian art was ever put onto canvas the Aboriginal people would smooth over the soil to draw sacred designs which belonged to that particular ceremony.

Body paint was also applied which held meanings connected to sacred rituals. These designs were outlined with circles and encircled with dots.

Dot painting originated 40 years ago back in 1971. Geoffrey Bardon was assigned as an art teacher for the children of the Aboriginal people in Papunya, near Alice Springs. He noticed whilst the Aboriginal men were telling stories they would draw symbols in the sand.

Bardon encouraged his students to paint a mural based on traditional dreamings on the school walls. The murals sparked incredible interest in the community. He incited them to paint the stories onto canvas and board. Soon many of the men began painting as well.

At first they used cardboard or pieces of wood, which was later replaced by canvas.

Bardon helped the Aboriginal artists transfer depictions of their stories from desert sand to paint on canvas.

Yep that's pretty much what I said. Indigenous art, some in dots, was first done on rocks, bodies, in the sand even, before being transferred onto canvas. But the art and the stories behind it go way back. Think of it like Renaissance artists painting things like the Sistine Chapel. Artwork made of an artist's interpretation of religious or spiritual stories from long ago. Indigenous spiritual stories have mostly been passed down via oral tradition, but same principal. We don't look at grand examples of Renaissance art and think "yeah these events probably never happened so the art is therefore meaningless" now do we?

Aviation context - we've had some fantastic Indigenous artwork on Australian aircraft. Of course those exact paintings weren't done thousands of years ago, but the meaning and stories behind them have a long tradition.

Flying Art Series (https://www.qantas.com/au/en/about-us/our-company/fleet/flying-art.html)

[megan]

Do some reading and make up your own mind, Dr Dre clearly hasI'm afraid your links don't persuade me one way or the other Icarus, I'd like to read something scholarly by someone who knows what s/he's talking about. I'll ask the question of someone who has had much to do with the outback communities when we next meet for coffee to gauge their opinion.

It's a pity there is no avenue currently available whereby we can learn of the Aboriginal norms and culture. The Alaskian Clinkit native tribe have perfected the teaching of their customs to visitors

[Crabman]

... every Canadian backpacker seems to have one sewn onto their backpack (apart from distinguishing themselves from Americans of course)...

Do you mean "other Americans"??

[Icarus2001]

It's a pity there is no avenue currently available whereby we can learn of the Aboriginal norms and culture. That is part of the point, to think that a group of aboriginals in Cape York had anything in common with a group in lower WA is difficult to understand. To try to call hundreds of disparate nomadic tribes a “First Nation” is social engineering, unless of course you follow Bruce Pascoe and believe they built thousands of huts and were farming.

[Mr Proach]

The core issue is, when the British came to Australia there were people already living here. It is evident they were here for a very very long time, so long in fact they are considered the first inhabitants of this land or by definition, Aboriginal. There is a flag that represents this fact and is freely available for public use. Considering what it represents it should given sufficient exposure to become readily identified as being associated with Australia. There are Australian aircraft that fly around the nation and overseas, many of these aircraft have a flag painted on their external surface, why not add the Aboriginal flag?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

The core issue is, when the British came to Australia there were people already living here. It is evident they were here for a very very long time, so long in fact they are considered the first inhabitants of this land or by definition, Aboriginal. There is a flag that represents this fact and is freely available for public use. Considering what it represents it should given sufficient exposure to become readily identified as being associated with Australia. There are Australian aircraft that fly around the nation and overseas, many of these aircraft have a flag painted on their external surface, why not add the Aboriginal flag?

I get what you’re saying. Why not? Perhaps because it’s a flag that represents about 2% of the population, whereas the national flag represents everyone. I realise there are other ways of looking at it.

[Icarus2001]

Why not? Go ahead. If you want the “aboriginal” flag up there then also put up the TSI flag. Why not?

[dr dre]

Why not? Go ahead. If you want the “aboriginal” flag up there then also put up the TSI flag. Why not?

Why not.

Multiple examples of carriers sporting multiple flag liveries:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/792x314/carib_400fff84eaebf0492e9ad54351ddbaeda43dfa54.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/985x438/hawaiian_a4dcbe5241a6558e8535363f2a01a1c86d7a3665.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/601x305/luft_3a187da80828b337fe18378ba1367dc860827090.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1038x574/scan_f919e2cba4043b1a06af0a6af892d692b5cfcf1a.jpg



I get what you’re saying. Why not? Perhaps because it’s a flag that represents about 2% of the population, whereas the national flag represents everyone. I realise there are other ways of looking at it.


The whole debate around changing the national flag is there are a lot of people who think the flag does not represent everyone, and that's far more than just Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people. To me the current flag says those of British/Anglo Saxon descent are considered a little more "Australian" than the rest.

[MickG0105]

Caribbean Airlines displays one National Flag - that of Trinidad and Tobago - and the emblem of the Caribbean Community. Hawaiian Airlines displays one National Flag - that of the United States of America - in the position reserved for that flag and the state flag of Hawaii (notably that state flag includes the Union Jack - the Hawaiian state flag was commissioned by a native Hawaiian, Kamehameha I, and is older than the Australian national flag). Lufthansa displays one National Flag - that of Germany - and the flag of the European Union, an intergovernmental/supranational organisation. Scandinavian Airlines displays stylised national flags of the three airlines that were combined to form it - Det Danske Luftfartselskab (flag carrier of Denmark), Det Norske Luftfartselskap (flag carrier of Norway) and Svensk Interkontinental Lufttrafik (a Swedish airline) - as SAS is the flag carrier for all three Scandinavian countries.

[Keg]

Changing the Aussie flag to include the Aboriginal flag at the Canton would say to Torres Strait islander people that one indigenous heritage is considered more important than the other. It would say to 98% of Aussies that one group of people is a little more Australian than the rest. See how this goes? There is no easy solution to that issue.

Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me who’s ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.

I’m OK with uniting behind a symbol that truly WOULD unite us. IE a flag that would see us retire the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags also. One flag to represent the entire nation, not continue to seek to divide us into our different ‘tribes’. However I don’t think those advocating for a change to the current flag would be able to achieve that. So until that time I’d prefer to stick with what we have given that for the overwhelming majority of us, that’s the flag that has represented us for all of our lives.

[dr dre]

Changing the Aussie flag to include the Aboriginal flag at the Canton would say to Torres Strait islander people that one indigenous heritage is considered more important than the other. It would say to 98% of Aussies that one group of people is a little more Australian than the rest. See how this goes?

That's a strawman. Almost all proposals to change the flag do not include replacing the Union Jack with the Aboriginal Flag in the canton. In the "Triple Union Flag" video I posted earlier they explained that clearly. But at least you acknowledge the significance of an emblem in the canton, and how on the current flag it directly signifies the UK nation is in the superior position on the Australian flag, or those of British heritage in Australia are considered more important than non British Australians. Thanks for making my point.

There is no easy solution to that issue.

There's a very easy solution. Get rid of the Union Jack from the Canton. You can then move the Commonwealth star up a bit to the middle of the hoist side and have a minimalist change but remove the error on the flag.

Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me who’s ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.


Yep - but current flag says if you're of British heritage you're currently more "equal" than others.

So until that time I’d prefer to stick with what we have given that for the overwhelming majority of us, that’s the flag that has represented us for all of our lives.

Overwhelming majority - becoming less by the day. In the first half of the 20th century, when the flag was designed, 90% of Australia was of Anglo ancestry. Now that's declined to about 60%. Future projections only show Anglo Australians becoming a smaller share of the pie. If we look at the migration statistics for the last FY there was full migration, 18/19 (likely to be in the same proportion when migration resumes soon), 92% of migrants came from somewhere other than the UK. Even if I was generous and included all the immigrants from the other majority Anglo nations in the figure of Anglo migrants, like NZ and USA, it still means 85% of migrants are probably non Anglo ancestry. So in the coming decades Australians of an Anglo Saxon background will be in the minority. It's a statistical inevitability.

And represented all of us? Everyone sees how they are represented by the flag differently. I see within recent years some of the events where Australian flags are prominent amongst crowds are things like the Cronulla Riots or those far right "patriot" rallies. That's not something that represents me, and more often now I see people displaying Australian flags as being associated with the views those groups hold. Now I'll make it clear I'm not saying everyone who flies an Australian flag holds those views, but those views seem more prominent in flag wavers. For instance a survey showed (https://www.news.uwa.edu.au/archive/201201234297/research/study-shows-racist-views-link-car-flags/) people who fly Australian flags from their cars were twice as likely to hold positive views of the White Australia Policy.

I’m OK with uniting behind a symbol that truly WOULD unite us. IE a flag that would see us retire the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags also. One flag to represent the entire nation, not continue to seek to divide us into our different ‘tribes’........ However I don’t think those advocating for a change to the current flag would be able to achieve that.

They managed to do it in Canada a long time back. As far as I can see there's no movement in Canada today to return to the pre 1965 Union Jack flag. Are you saying Australians are more incompetent and less mature than Canadians?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Someone who has ancestors stretching back 30,000 years in this county is no more an Aussie than someone like me who’s ancestry dates back to the early 1800s, or someone who became an Aussie four days ago on Australia Day. We are all Aussies and on THAT we should be all equally proud.

Well said, Keg. The problem with so many of these things is that they are inherently divisive. Take something like a ‘welcome to a country’. Essentially a nice thing, welcoming someone. Except that it automatically places that person in the position of an outsider, unless you’re welcoming them back home, which is not at all how I see a welcome to country. (Would be a great idea though, if that’s what it could become.) I was born here, as were my parents, their parents, their grandparents and so on. A few of them died in its service. It’s the only home any of us have ever known. Why should I be ‘welcomed’ here as an outsider? I’m not, and nor is someone who became a citizen just the other day. The last Anzac Day ceremony I was at, we were welcomed - to our own homeland - by a lovely young lady who was born here about 30 years after I was. She did a genuinely great job, but something about it didn’t sit quite right. Then we have the inevitable acknowledgments of traditional owners, for which there’s a time and a place, but which just gets done to death. At my kid’s school graduation, there were - I kid you not - no fewer than FOUR acknowledgments of the traditional owners before they got around to even mentioning the kids. The ‘is, was and always will be’ part is meaningless and insincere - after all, the land was taken, concreted over, had a school built on it, and isn’t getting handed back any time soon. All the lip service and platitudes do nothing in improving the plight of indigenous people.

I think there’s plenty in indigenous culture for us to learn about and respect, but can’t see that divisive, empty gestures, and the elevation of any one group over the rest, are really helping in the long run.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Yep - but current flag says if you're of British heritage you're currently more "equal" than others.

Not necessarily, that’s simply your opinion. You could also view it as acknowledging the foundations and institutions of what has turned out to be a remarkably peaceful, prosperous and diverse nation, whatever faults it might have.

I don’t necessarily disagree with what you’re suggesting for a possible future flag. Your Canadian example isn’t directly applicable though, IMHO, given the long-standing and substantial French influence there.

[zzuf]

Loyalty to flags mostly escapes me.
Recently, the most commonly seen flag in Melbourne was that of Serbia. But not a lot of Serbian flags on Oz day.

[Keg]

The difference Dre is that it’s you who considers the Union Jack to be in a position of privilege and therefore anything that goes in it’s place automatically privileges that replacement. I personally don’t consider the Union Jack to be more important than any other part of the flag

However to me the flag is of secondary importance. It’s something that we look at addressing once we’re firmly convinced that we are all Australian and united in what that means. Once we do away with the exclusionary statement ‘always was, always will be’ and all the other power statements, power flags, power symbols that are intended to divide us only then I’ll be convinced that we can address having a flag that truely does unite us as a nation.

Personally I’d do away with the states and state flags also. I always found the states to something that was only useful when playing state of origin or deciding who I was going to barrack for in the AFL grand final. I didn’t consider my identity as a NSWelshman anything significant at all. Having the states doesn’t bother me for inane and light hearted things like football but when the tribal identity (state, flag, land, power statement, etc) is used as a weapon of control against other Aussies I find that incredibly offensive (to use the lingo of the woke oppressed).

So the discussion about a flag isn’t actually about the flag at all. It’s about identity. If people want to call themselves Aboriginal Australians, or naturalised Australians, or Anglo Aussies, or Vietnamese Australian or even just Aussies (irrespective of their personal heritage) then I’ve no gripe with that as long as they see their primary identity as being an Aussie.

However whilst some hold those ‘descriptors’ as being more important than the ‘Australian’ part then it’s going to be hard to ever have a sensible discussion about being united and deciding on a flag that will unite us all.

[morno]

Far out, if the indigenous want to have smoking ceremonies and welcome to country, whether it was invented last week or 40,000 years ago, let them. If there’s one thing this thread has highlighted, there’s a lot of people with little tolerance, and there’s just as many who think we need to hand everything over to apologise for the last 230 years!

Why don’t we just all get along and treat each other equally. Look forwards in writing our future, while acknowledging our past. But don’t let the past write the future.

As for the flag, we have one currently, it’s called the Australian flag. If everyone (or the majority) feels strongly about adopting another one which acknowledges all parts of our society, then make the noises in the right places.

[nonsense]

When the United Kingdom disintegrates, losing Scotland and/or Northern Ireland, will the Union Jack currently comprised of the red cross of St George for the Kingdom of England, the white saltire of St Andrew for Scotland and the red saltire of St Patrick to represent Ireland, lose the redundant components?

If it does, will the Australian flag undergo matching changes?

[nonsense]

Far out, if the indigenous want to have smoking ceremonies and welcome to country, whether it was invented last week or 40,000 years ago, let them.

It's as if they think if they can just prove that smoking ceremonies were invented after white settlement, then they can dismiss them as irrelevant, though I'm not sure if this would be because anything dating to after 1770 should not be taken seriously (hello? the entirety of white Australian history?) or because anything dating to after 1770 by blacks is uppity behaviour against white domination? Neither is an attractive conclusion...

As for the flag, we have one currently, it’s called the Australian flag. If everyone (or the majority) feels strongly about adopting another one which acknowledges all parts of our society, then make the noises in the right places.

Canada changed their flag to a popular and instantly recognisable design 56 years ago and don't seem to obsess about becoming a republic at all (perhaps something to do with their southern neighbours?).

[dr dre]

The difference Dre is that it’s you who considers the Union Jack to be in a position of privilege and therefore anything that goes in it’s place automatically privileges that replacement. I personally don’t consider the Union Jack to be more important than any other part of the flag


This isn't a matter of differing personal opinions. North American Vexillological Association (https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/622278/documents/GFBF_English_1964413892.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIA6MYUE6DNNNCCD T4J&Expires=1643523113&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DGFBF_English.pdf&Signature=K7Z7ZCd%2FNHGVeCgS4jhwUpwdxPw%3D) - the canton is the point of honour on the flag. The Flag Institute (https://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flag_Design_Commission_Report.pdf) - the canton is the most significant part of the flag. Even the current Australian Prime Minister's website (https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-centre/government/australian-flags-booklet/part-2/displaying-australian-national-flag) - the canton is the position of honour on the flag. The experts are not on your side.

[dr dre]

When the United Kingdom disintegrates, losing Scotland and/or Northern Ireland, will the Union Jack currently comprised of the red cross of St George for the Kingdom of England, the white saltire of St Andrew for Scotland and the red saltire of St Patrick to represent Ireland, lose the redundant components?

If it does, will the Australian flag undergo matching changes?

Who knows? We'll probably look even dumber if we only change our own flag solely in response to another nation changing theirs.

Maybe the best option will be for Australian airlines to follow what some airlines have done, most notably nearby with Air New Zealand, and remove all national flags from their aircraft. It doesn't seem to be an ICAO requirement and would anyone really miss a tiny mark you have to squint to see on the back of the fuselage?

As far as I can tell no one seemed to notice or care when Air NZ dropped the small NZ flag from their aircraft when they changed liveries in 2013.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Now the Canadians have a flag that is clean, striking and uniquely identifiable as Canadian
But only if you know what a maple leaf is. It only says "Canada" to someone who already knows about Canada. If the Canadian flag was something else, because I know about Canada, I'd recognize their flag. It's about being educated. That's where I have issues where others say "Our flag doesn't shout Australia". Well unless you put a kangaroo on it, it's unlikely ever to. People not recognizing our flag is not our problem, it's theirs. It's basically advertising. Everyone knows the US flag because it's so in your face all the time, but it doesn't intrinsically show anything "American". Most people probably wouldn't know what any of the items that make it up mean, but they recognize it. I don't know what the flag of Turkmenistan looks like, but I bet that doesn't mean the population of Turkmenistan is all bent out of shape over that fact.
My issue with changing our flag is, a/ tradition etc takes time to build, and we've got 120 years of history invested in it (more or less the same flag), and b/ I've not seen any changes that don't seem to be a sop to some noisy minority in some way or other, or look like they were drawn by a colour-blind pre-schooler.
I actually quite like the Eureka flag as a design, irrespective of its origins, but that has been appropriated by the bogans, and would not solve the recognition of sundry minorities issue. Perhaps the current flag with the Union Jack removed and the Federation star moved to the canton (examples are out there) might be acceptable? Nice and simple, not too big a change.....does look like just another Pacific fly speck one though.
Unfortunately, rather than something that represents us, we just seem to be looking for a flag that doesn't offend anyone, which seems to be the only criteria for most things these days.

[Pinky the pilot]

we just seem to be looking for a flag that doesn't offend anyone, which seems to be the only criteria for most things these days.

And unfortunately it seems that no matter what changes would be suggested, someone, somewhere, would profess to be offended by them!:ugh:

Keg; Well said!

[Lead Balloon]

I'm offended by any oblong shaped object.

I mean to say: "oblong". The word itself is offensive.

[MickG0105]

...
As far as I can tell no one seemed to notice or care when Air NZ dropped the small NZ flag from their aircraft when they changed liveries in 2013.
Air New Zealand had been a bit on again, off again when it came to the New Zealand flag being displayed on their aircraft.

The flag was on the tail of the old Tasman Empire Airways Ltd (TEAL) aircraft between 1954 - 1965. They then dropped it in 1965 when they adopted Air New Zealand into the company name and the flag wasn't reinstated to their livery until 1981. The flag was retained with the adoption of the "Pacific Wave" paint scheme in 1996 before being dropped when they adopted the "Silver Fern" livery in 2013.

Of note with regards to the "Silver Fern" livery was that that was adopted on Christopher Luxon's watch as CEO. Luxon was a vocal advocate at that time for changing the New Zealand flag to Kyle Lockwood's blue, white and black silver fern flag.

[Keg]

This isn't a matter of differing personal opinions. North American Vexillological Association (https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/622278/documents/GFBF_English_1964413892.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIA6MYUE6DNNNCCD T4J&Expires=1643523113&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DGFBF_English.pdf&Signature=K7Z7ZCd%2FNHGVeCgS4jhwUpwdxPw%3D) - the canton is the point of honour on the flag. The Flag Institute (https://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Flag_Design_Commission_Report.pdf) - the canton is the most significant part of the flag. Even the current Australian Prime Minister's website (https://www.pmc.gov.au/resource-centre/government/australian-flags-booklet/part-2/displaying-australian-national-flag) - the canton is the position of honour on the flag. The experts are not on your side.

Oh, I’m quite aware of the convention surrounding these things. I personally don’t view the Aussie flag that way. For me the southern cross and federation star (however redundant it seems to be these days) are equally as important.

[wombat watcher]

The core issue is, when the British came to Australia there were people already living here. It is evident they were here for a very very long time, so long in fact they are considered the first inhabitants of this land or by definition, Aboriginal. There is a flag that represents this fact and is freely available for public use. Considering what it represents it should given sufficient exposure to become readily identified as being associated with Australia. There are Australian aircraft that fly around the nation and overseas, many of these aircraft have a flag painted on their external surface, why not add the Aboriginal flag?

The answer to your last question:
who owns the aircraft; definitely not you. The owners decide what they paint on their aircraft.


So who do you think the “First Nations” people of the United Kingdom are and which flag should British Airways have on their aircraft.?

[minigundiplomat]

I think there’s plenty in indigenous culture for us to learn about and respect, but can’t see that divisive, empty gestures, and the elevation of any one group over the rest, are really helping in the long run.

nail - head.

Unfortunately that’s too difficult and rather than go and spend time in a community and improve lives, the liberal elite will just chip away at easy victories like flags.

I’ve met many inspirational First Nations people and they are first to admit they are too busy sorting out real issues in their communities to get worked up over which flag QF has on its jets.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Air New Zealand had been a bit on again, off again when it came to the New Zealand flag being displayed on their aircraft.
Maybe they're sick of everyone asking why they have the Australian flag on their aircraft? :E

[cameltruck]

This is the solution that will satisfy everyone.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x270/australia_ab785249509ad9080b624090865c41ab8937859a.gif

It's a 4 dose regime.

[MickG0105]

Maybe they're sick of everyone asking why they have the Australian flag on their aircraft? :E
Or they figured that the name of the country is right there on the tin so adding a flag is redundant.

[MickG0105]

This is the solution that will satisfy everyone.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x270/australia_ab785249509ad9080b624090865c41ab8937859a.gif

It's a 4 dose regime.
Oh dear. It's important stuff like beer that will definitely set off the various state rivalries.

[dr dre]

This is the solution that will satisfy everyone.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x270/australia_ab785249509ad9080b624090865c41ab8937859a.gif

It's a 4 dose regime.

At least it's more Australian than the current flag, even though XXXX is technically owned by a Japanese company. Maybe just fill it with beers from a independently owned craft brewery in each state.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

For the country that can't spell......

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Or they figured that the name of the country is right there on the tin so adding a flag is redundant.
Guess these guys didn't get that memo.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x534/american_airlines_tulsa_787_d393d2f6437af0a4b4b9e174c983a9b6 4a2c9cf1.jpg

[MickG0105]

Guess these guys didn't get that memo.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/940x534/american_airlines_tulsa_787_d393d2f6437af0a4b4b9e174c983a9b6 4a2c9cf1.jpg
You know how the Americans love their flag ... and redundancy.

[Mr Proach]

The answer to your last question:
who owns the aircraft; definitely not you. The owners decide what they paint on their aircraft.


So who do you think the “First Nations” people of the United Kingdom are and which flag should British Airways have on their aircraft.?

Would it be the owner or the operator that would make that decision? Does Qantas own all the aircraft they operate?
I don't have an opinion on who the "First Nations" people of the UK are or what flag BA should have on it's aircraft.

[601]

There's a reason why every Canadian backpacker seems to have one sewn onto their backpack

There's a reason why every Australian backpacker seems to have one sewn onto their backpack

[tail wheel]

Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?

It does. And in recent years descendants of the Melanesian South Sea Islander labourers are also being recognized at Aboriginal. Wonder how long before they want their own flag?

There are 798,400 Australians that identify as Aboriginal, 3.1% of the Australian population. Of that 3.1% of the population less than 15% (approximately 120,000 or less than 0.5% of the Australian population) are agitating for change. Changes to Australia Day are not supported by respected Aboriginal leaders or the majority of those that identify as Aboriginal:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/disgraceful-australia-day-debate-needs-to-stop-warren-mundine/6d49985e-ca3b-4cd3-b13a-01a75c9dc68b

https://www.jacintaprice.com/jacinta_price_australia_day_speech_reflect_respect_celebrate

https://capeyorkpartnership.org.au/australia-day-on-january-25-26-a-noble-compromise-between-old-and-new/

Spanish philosopher George Santayana is credited with the aphorism, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,” while British statesman Winston Churchill wrote, “Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.”

Our Australian flag is a symbol of our short but proud history and the Australian lives lost endeavouring to make the world a free and better place. Our system of Government has given us a standard of living, freedom and democracy envied around the World.

A change to the date of Australia Day, a change of National Flag, or a change of method of Government may well be contrary to the wishes and alienate the vast majority of Australians, of all races, creed, or political persuasion.

If it isn't broken why do we want each new generation to rewrite our Australian history and replace a system of Government that has served all Australians so well?

One would hope that the wishes of a majority of all Australians and a majority of those that identify as Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander and South Sea Islander are respected.

[Lookleft]

Our Australian flag is a symbol of our short but proud history and the Australian lives lost endeavouring to make the world a free and better place. Our system of Government has given us a standard of living, freedom and democracy envied around the World.

Very true but all that came about on 1 January 1901 when a bunch of separate colonies became a federation. Its also what the national flag represents. How many people actually know what the big white star on the flag represents? Lets celebrate that as Australia Day and gazette the third Monday in January as the public holiday. That is the ideals that the Australians fought and died for. All January 26 represents is when a bunch of convicts and their military guards finally got off the boat in the name of an English King and got drunk. If you want to get rid of the Union Jack off the flag and become a Republic then 26 January has to go as well. If we do become a Republic then make that the national holiday and make it a date other than 26 January.

[ChrisJ800]

Very true but all that came about on 1 January 1901 when a bunch of separate colonies became a federation. Its also what the national flag represents. How many people actually know what the big white star on the flag represents? Lets celebrate that as Australia Day and gazette the third Monday in January as the public holiday. That is the ideals that the Australians fought and died for. All January 26 represents is when a bunch of convicts and their military guards finally got off the boat in the name of an English King and got drunk. If you want to get rid of the Union Jack off the flag and become a Republic then 26 January has to go as well. If we do become a Republic then make that the national holiday and make it a date other than 26 January.

I guess the big white star is to differentiate us from the New Zealand flag? I have welsh origins so still don't understand why the welsh flag is not incorporated somewhere in the union flag!

[Ascend Charlie]

Australia is unique. We are the only country that eats the animals on the Coat of Arms. The Poms might have done it in the past, after all, there is a definite shortage of unicorns and lions in their country. But we still do it.

Our history as a nation, much as the wokeys want to change it, began on 26 Jan 1788 with a bunch of Poms. Can't avoid that one or re-write history around it. And we became a great nation, with the help of the various immigrants whether voluntary or in chains. That is history, warts and all. Add to that the Chinese involvement in the gold rush, the Afghanis helping to build the railways, the influx of Asians once the White Australia policy was wiped, the middle Europeans who built the Snowy, the Greeks who built our cafes, the Italians who built our fruit shops, and the First Nations people who built....the....the...........

Let us remember our roots. Of the majority. Let's not allow the minority tail to wag the dog.

[dr dre]

It does. And in recent years descendants of the Melanesian South Sea Islander labourers are also being recognized at Aboriginal. Wonder how long before they want their own flag?

There are 798,400 Australians that identify as Aboriginal, 3.1% of the Australian population. Of that 3.1% of the population less than 15% (approximately 120,000 or less than 0.5% of the Australian population) are agitating for change.

Some recent polls have shown 55% to 33% (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-18/australia-day-january-26-views-changing-australia-talks-reveals/100223940) support from the overall population to changing the date other polls 60% (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jan/26/guardian-essential-poll-reveals-growing-support-for-changing-the-date-of-australia-day) in favour of a change or establishment of a separate day for indigenous recognition. A bit more than 0.5%.

While there are polls in the opposite direction, what it shows is opinion on the day is divided and Jan 26 is not a day of national unity as it's supporters claim it should be.

But there's a second issue. It's not really polls for or against a date change, it's the fact that there is a growing lack of interest in January 26th being seen as a day of national celebration. Businesses across the board have basically stopped all recognition of the date, even accounting for the pandemic there was a distinct lack of interest in those I know to hold Australia day celebrations, the number of flags on cars etc seemed far less. So while a small majority may support keeping Jan 26 as the national day, that may just be limited to the AOTY announcements and some citizenship ceremonies. This poll last year (https://nit.com.au/poll-shows-decline-in-january-26-celebrations/) showed 53% saw Jan 26 as "just another public holiday" as opposed to 29% "a day to do something to celebrate Australia".

So whilst the date may remain the same the nation's attitude to how they view the day is shifting. Especially amongst the youth. I sort of see the current situation like the SSM debate. That started out as a minority position, but when prominent people and businesses made the case the opinions polls swung around quite rapidly. And with a larger support for changing the date amongst the youth then there's an air of inevitability over the whole thing.

Changes to Australia Day are not supported by respected Aboriginal leaders or the majority of those that identify as Aboriginal:

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/disgraceful-australia-day-debate-needs-to-stop-warren-mundine/6d49985e-ca3b-4cd3-b13a-01a75c9dc68b
https://www.jacintaprice.com/jacinta_price_australia_day_speech_reflect_respect_celebrate
https://capeyorkpartnership.org.au/australia-day-on-january-25-26-a-noble-compromise-between-old-and-new/

I'm not sure where you got that the majority of Indigenous people don't support a change to Australia Day, polling shows a majority of Indigenous people in support of a change (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/jan/26/most-indigenous-australians-want-date-and-name-of-australia-day-changed-poll-finds) as far back as 2017 before attitudes began to shift in the overall population.

Respected leaders? Two conservative aligned pollies, and Noel Pearson who actually in that message supports an expansion of the current date to Jan 25 to mark the sovereignty of Indigenous people over the land of Australia. Plenty of other respected Indigenous leaders (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/jan/19/what-our-leaders-say-about-australia-day-and-where-did-it-start-anyway) have been calling for a date change.

A change to the date of Australia Day, a change of National Flag, or a change of method of Government may well be contrary to the wishes and alienate the vast majority of Australians, of all races, creed, or political persuasion.


Well almost 2/3rds in support (https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/story_archive/2016/southern_horizon_chosen_as_favourite_in_survey_on_alternativ e_australian_flag) of a flag change recently.

One would hope that the wishes of a majority of all Australians and a majority of those that identify as Aboriginal, Torres Strait Islander and South Sea Islander are respected.

Yes, I hope so too......

[dr dre]

Very true but all that came about on 1 January 1901 when a bunch of separate colonies became a federation. Its also what the national flag represents. How many people actually know what the big white star on the flag represents? Lets celebrate that as Australia Day and gazette the third Monday in January as the public holiday. That is the ideals that the Australians fought and died for. All January 26 represents is when a bunch of convicts and their military guards finally got off the boat in the name of an English King and got drunk. If you want to get rid of the Union Jack off the flag and become a Republic then 26 January has to go as well. If we do become a Republic then make that the national holiday and make it a date other than 26 January.

There's another fact I recently learned about the "tradition" of Australia Day on the 26th of January. The 26th has only been the official public holiday in all states and territories from 1994. Before then it was common for the public holiday to be on a Monday.

Maybe make the holiday the last Monday in January so it's a long weekend before school goes back.

[Lookleft]

And we became a great nation, with the help of the various immigrants whether voluntary or in chains. That is history, warts and all. Add to that the Chinese involvement in the gold rush,

Its the warts and all bit that should be addressed. Like the towards the Chinese involved in the gold rush. Which actually was directly responsible for the White Australia policy that is referred to:

the influx of Asians once the White Australia policy was wiped,

It was no small thing and highlights the racism that was a part of the first white settlement. So lets address the past and look at how First Nations people were treated. Is massacre or genocide too strong for proud White Australian sensibilities? If the colonial history can be looked at honestly then maybe the Anglo population might start to understand why 26 January continues to be a problem. BTW the holiday was only gazetted in 1994 so it is just as easy to change it as it was to institute it.

[ChrisJ800]

I would like to think we will become a republic one day so that day will replace Jan 26 (so long as we dont declare the republic on that day!

[Lookleft]

There's another fact I recently learned about the "tradition" of Australia Day on the 26th of January. The 26th has only been the official public holiday in all states and territories from 1994. Before then it was common for the public holiday to be on a Monday.

And even before that it has only been recognised as Australia Day since 1935. For a long time "Empire Day" was considered to be the national holiday. I'm sure there were many who were outraged that "Empire Day" was no longer being celebrated.

[Ascend Charlie]

I'm sure there were many who were outraged that "Empire Day" was no longer being celebrated.

Not outraged, but disappointed - it used to be "Cracker Night" in the 50s and we would save our pocket money for months to buy fireworks - penny rockets, tom thumbs, catherine wheels, double bungers and so on. Some people were silly enough to point them at others and cause injuries, and eventually private fireworks were banned sometime in the 80s?

But if you REALLY want to disagree with the way that people were enslaved, entire cities were wiped out, genocide was approved and even commanded, just open your Bible. However, I reckon that nobody would be brave enough to demand that religion be removed from our history and indeed our lives. Double standards, just go for the low-hanging fruit.

[Lookleft]

However, I reckon that nobody would be brave enough to demand that religion be removed from our history and indeed our lives.

Clearly your head is still stuck in the 50's because you obviously have not paid attention to Australian attitudes to religion over the last 50 years. Not only have they been "brave" enough it has actually been enshrined in legislation. BTW "cracker night" was on the Queens Birthday long weekend which is still in place. At least it was in NSW in the 60's and still in the ACT until very recently.

[Ascend Charlie]

Not only have they been "brave" enough it has actually been enshrined in legislation.

If that is so, why do churches still exist? Why are ministers of religion allowed to spout the nonsense? Perhaps you mean that it cannot be taught in secular schools, but religion is far from being "cancelled" as it should be.

And in the 50s, I'm pretty sure it was Empire Day we were celebrating. See below:
The celebration of Queen Victoria's birthday on May 24 was renamed Empire Day in 1903 after her death in 1901. It was celebrated throughout the British Empire culminating in fireworks and bonfires in the evening. The last celebration of Empire Day in Australia took place in 1958.

[Pinky the pilot]

"Cracker night' at least in South Australia and the NT was November 5th. Otherwise known as Guy Fawkes Day.

Fireworks were banned in SA by the then Dunstan Labor Government. AFAIK fireworks are still legal in the NT.

Guy Fawkes; The only Man ever to enter Parliament with honest intentions!:E:D

[43Inches]

Altering the flag and adjusting Australia day has nothing to do with altering or removing history, the history will still remain and be taught. The point is to no longer glorify or celebrate something that was a significantly bad event for the original inhabitants. If Australia day was more like solemn ANZAC day you would not have the same issues, as you could swing it to more reflect on how Australia came to be and those that have sacrificed along the way, but these days it's really giant piss-up party for all. The removal of the "jack", is part of Australia maturing as a nation and proving it is no longer a vassal of the old empire, the same as removing the Queens face from all our currency, maybe make important Australians on one side and unique fauna on the reverse. The aboriginal flag will never be the national flag of Australia, that is not the debate here, it is a flag that represents the Aboriginal people and their history, not all Australians. As far as Australia day is concerned, it's now broken, a new day is most likely going to have to be made just to make it a worthwhile day without drama and separatist notions.

When John Batman chose the site for what is now Melbourne he initially entered into a contract with the Wurundjeri Elders for the sale of the land in exchange for cattle and so forth. This was signed at a ceremony which is subject to controversy as to whether it was real, staged or a forgery, however William Barak claimed to have attended the ceremony as a child saying that NSW aborigines had helped with communication and traditions. The main issue is that the Wurundjeri probably thought of the treaty as a temporary, lease type arrangement which they commonly entered into with other tribes in the area. This was one of the only recorded treaty that a colonist sought with the locals, and this treaty was declared void by the governor as negotiation with the indigenous was illegal as the 'crown' did not regard them as landowners to negotiate with, to maintain terra nulius.Proclamation

By His Excellency Major-General Sir Richard Bourke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bourke), K.C.B., commanding His Majesty's Forces, Captain General and Governor in Chief of the Territory of New South Wales (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_South_Wales) and its Dependencies, and Vice Admiral of the same,

Whereas, it has been represented to me, that divers of His Majesty's Subjects have taken possession of vacant lands of the Crown, within the limits of this Colony, under the pretence of a treaty, bargain, or contract, for the purchase thereof, with the Aboriginal Natives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_Australians); Now therefore, I, the Governor, in virtue and in exercise of the power and authority in me vested do hereby proclaim and notify to all His Majesty's Subjects, and others whom it may concern, that every such treaty, bargain, and contract with the Aboriginal Natives, as aforesaid, for the possesssion, title, or claim to any lands lying and being within the limits of the Government of the Colony of New South Wales, as the same are laid down and defined by His Majesty's Commission; that is to say extending from the Northern Cape, or extremity of the Coast called Cape York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_York), in the latitude of ten degrees thirty seven minutes South, to the southern extremity of the said territory of New South Wales, or Wilson's Promontory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%27s_Promontory), in the latitude of thirty nine degrees twelve minutes South, and embracing all the country inland to the westward, as far as the one hundred and twenty ninth degree of east longitude, reckoning from the meridian of Greenwich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Meridian), including all the islands adjacent, in the Pacific Ocean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Ocean) within the latitude aforesaid, and including also Norfolk Island (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Island), is void and of no effect against the rights of the Crown; and that all persons who shall be found in possession of any such Lands as aforesaid, without the license or authority of His Majesty's Government, for such purpose first had and obtained, will be considered as trespassers, and liable to be dealt with in like manner as other intruders upon the vacant lands of the Crown within the said Colony.

Given under my Hand and Seal, at Government House, Sydney, this twenty sixth Day of August, one thousand eight hundred and thirty five.

(signed) Richard Bourke

By His Excellency's Command,

(signed) Alexander McLeay

God save the King!


So Australian Aboriginals were given no rights, even though they occupied the land and were not allowed to deal in any way with colonists, which as it sounds they were willing to do in some circumstances, including the land around Melbourne. Obviously a great many saw no other way around this other than to attack colonists and cause trouble. Which the colonies came down hard on and massacred many.

[Camara]

Does "Aboriginal" by definition include the TSI peoples?
I live on Thursday Island.
From an entertainment perspective ( we need some up here…:D ) if you had the balls to say that to an Islanders face I’d gladly pay for your Medevac down to Cairns.

[601]

Well almost 2/3rds in support (https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/story_archive/2016/southern_horizon_chosen_as_favourite_in_survey_on_alternativ e_australian_flag) of a flag change recently.
What was the sample size, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?
I would guarantee that it was not 26M
I see that it was 8,140. Not a lot in the scheme of things.

[Icarus2001]

I tried to follow the link from the article to the survey but it did not work.

My impression of the survey from the article made it seem liked the question was…” which alternative flag design do you support” as they mentioned that of 8140 replies only 6427 people chose an alternative. This was interpreted as a “protest vote” by the originators of the survey.

Any one here who was a fan of Yes Minister would know how to phrase a survey question…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

[MickG0105]

What was the sample size, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?
I would guarantee that it was not 26M
I see that it was 8,140. Not a lot in the scheme of things.
Actually 8,000+ is a huge sample for a survey. For polling on simple questions, a sample of just 2,401 can return results within a 2 percent margin of error at a 95 percent confidence level for a population of 26 million ... so long as the sample is properly representative.

That properly representative sample was what was missing with the Western Sydney University flag survey, at least with regards to the question of whether Australians want to retain the current Australian flag. The survey, titled the 'Alternative Australian Flag Survey', was web-based and open to any and all comers who knew about it. Despite being sponsored by the Australian Research Council, the survey was not all that well publicised and by its name alone, it almost certainly attracted participants of a particular mindset, specifically those looking for an 'Alternative Australian Flag'.

With regards to what the survey set out to do, namely determining which of six alternative flag designs was most popular, the survey generated reasonable results. With regards to gauging the general population's appetite for actually changing the flag, that survey was generally, if not completely, useless.

[dr dre]

The removal of the "jack", is part of Australia maturing as a nation and proving it is no longer a vassal of the old empire, the same as removing the Queens face from all our currency,

I forgot about that! I think it’s inevitable when QEII kicks the bucket the Royals will be off our currency.

Because not even the most die hard monarchist would want to look at Big Ears every day of the week.

[dr dre]

What was the sample size, 100, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000?
I would guarantee that it was not 26M
I see that it was 8,140. Not a lot in the scheme of things.

Sample sizes and polling methods aside.....

You know we’ve never had a truly free vote on a national flag? The competition held by the newly created government in 1901 to find one had “loyalty to the Empire” as one of the judging criteria. So any non-Union Jack design wasn’t going to go far. And the chosen design still had to be given the tick of approval from the British Colonial Secretary and the King.

[MickG0105]

...
You know we’ve never had a truly free vote on a national flag? The competition held by the newly created government in 1901 to find one had “loyalty to the Empire” as one of the judging criteria.

Do you have a reference for that contention regarding the judging criteria because that matter is generally disputed. There were no judging criteria published by either the Federal government nor the Review of Reviews, a monthly journal that ran a competition for a flag design at the same time.

The "loyalty to Empire" line seems to be drawn from one of two possible sources; either Ivor Evans' 1918 book, The history of the Australian flag, or Gwen Swinburne's 1969 book, Unfurled: Australia's Flag.

Evans, aged 13 at the time of the flag competition, was one of the joint winners of the competition along with Annie Dorrington, L. J. Hawkins, E. J. Nuttall, and William Stevens. They all submitted essentially identical designs - the flag we use today. In his book, when discussing "loyalty to the British Empire", Evans was not describing the judging criteria rather he was describing the one of the factors that he considered to be important to his design.

Swinburne's reference to competition rules as stating that the design should "be based on the British ensigns" is a misattribution, apparently a quote from Barlow Cumberland's 1909 book, History of the Union Jack and the Flag of the Empire.
...
And the chosen design still had to be given the tick of approval from the British Colonial Secretary and the King.
On this matter the rules of the competition were abundantly clear;

... The successful design will be submitted to the Imperial authorities.

The award of the Board, however, will be final, and the prize will be given in accordance with their decision, even if the design be not accepted by the Imperial authorities.

Given the times, I don't know how much more could have been done by the government to ensure that the selection of the Australian flag was free of Imperial influence.

[dr dre]

Do you have a reference for that contention regarding the judging criteria because that matter is generally disputed. There were no judging criteria published by either the Federal government nor the Review of Reviews, a monthly journal that ran a competition for a flag design at the same time.


Flag Competition Documents Review of Reviews October, 1900 Designs for a Federal Flag (https://www.anfa-national.org.au/education/1901-competition-gazette-27/review-of-reviews/)

They even mention that although a flag design without a Union Jack could technically be submitted it had a small chance of being successful.

One of their criteria was “kinship with Empire”.

So whilst technically you could submit a non Union Jack flag, anyone with half a brain in 1900/1901 knew from the competition brief and the prevailing political culture at the time knew a new flag design that did not have a Union Jack or another symbol denoting being a part of the British Empire was not going to go far in the selection process, so why even bother submitting an entry without one.

To me that was hardly a free and open choice.

Were we even an independent nation in 1901? A lot of historians would regard Federation as just the colonies joining together as one under the same system of British rule. It wasn’t until 1930 that Australian could decide who their Governor General was going to be, as opposed to one selected by the UK. It wasn’t until 1931 that the power of the British parliament to legislate for Australia was mostly removed. It wasn’t until 1986 that it was fully removed, and the appeal to the Privy Council was removed. There’s also technically some reserve powers in the Constitution that technically the Monarch can exercise in regard to Australia, it’s just by convention that’s never happened, so legally and practically it’s an unknown.

It be other nations like Canada, Singapore, India, South Africa etc that removed the Union Jack from their cantons all did so decades after 1901. The culture, the political will to change these symbols changed throughout the 20th century. So to me it’s fairly obvious that short of a war of independence any Australia symbology created as a result of Federation in 1901 was going to adhere to the standards of the time, which meant symbols of the British Empire.


Just like state and territory flags.

The flags that were created for the states pre mid 20th century all featured a Union Jack.

From the 70s onwards, the flags created for places like the NT, the ACT, Christmas and Cocos Islands and Norfolk Island all omit the Union Jack.

I think it’s obvious had the National flag have been created later in the century it would have featured a non Union Jack design.

[Roj approved]

And has anyone noticed VH registered Jetstar A320 aircraft don't have the Australian flag on them? I guess it is a bit "non denominational" so they can fly in Oz and NZ without offending anyone?

[dr dre]

And has anyone noticed VH registered Jetstar A320 aircraft don't have the Australian flag on them? I guess it is a bit "non denominational" so they can fly in Oz and NZ without offending anyone?

Nothing to do with the often used furphy "not offending anyone"

None of the JQ 320s for any of the various entities, JQ Australia, JQ Asia, JQ Japan, the undelivered JQ HK aircraft, had any national flags applied. Probably to allow the various aircraft to be shifted around each entity as they saw fit. The exception was JQ Pacific aircraft which eventually got a small Vietnamese flag on the nose , may have been due to the government owned Vietnam Airlines buying a majority share in 2012, because I can't see any flags on their aircraft they had prior to that date.

[mickk]

The Aboriginal Flag of today, goes back to the 70s Land Rights campaign. Its not a symbol of pride, nor is it inclusive.
It has become a symbol of protest and division, not one of unity. So it will never be adopted by QANTAS.
If there was a buck in it, Joyce would have adopted it on day two. Hes not gone for a Rainbow Flag, so theres no hope for the Aboriginal Flag.
Besides, it makes no mention of the Torres Strait Islanders and a few other First Nations we claim as ours, who consider themselves apart from others.

[Potsie Weber]

The Aboriginal Flag of today, goes back to the 70s Land Rights campaign. Its not a symbol of pride, nor is it inclusive.
It has become a symbol of protest and division, not one of unity. So it will never be adopted by QANTAS.
If there was a buck in it, Joyce would have adopted it on day two. Hes not gone for a Rainbow Flag, so theres no hope for the Aboriginal Flag.
Besides, it makes no mention of the Torres Strait Islanders and a few other First Nations we claim as ours, who consider themselves apart from others.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x691/7e83bcc6_af0c_406f_b474_e82dc8e22fa2_1a7ed096bfdcd38fad23030 fa44186b0e29f42c7.jpeg

[Matt48]

This is the solution that will satisfy everyone.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x270/australia_ab785249509ad9080b624090865c41ab8937859a.gif

It's a 4 dose regime.
QANTAS, invented in Queensland,
XXXX, invented in Queensland.
Logical pairing really.

[Matt48]

Ask anyone who is not a resident of Australia to look at an Australian flag and say which country it belongs to, then point to a Qantas tail and ask them whose it is, chances are 1% will get the former and 99% will get the latter.

The reason the Canadian flag is so well recognised is that it is so simple and uncluttered, displaying the maple leaf as it does.

We also have a symbol that is exclusively Australian and that is the kangaroo, a simple flag with just a red roo on a contrast background would eliminate all the racial divisiveness, with nothing to remind of the colonisation by Britain, and no need to add this flag and that flag, just one that says 'Australia', no matter what tribe you are from.

Have a look at the Norfolk Island flag, just a clean green Norfolk Island Pine on a green and white three panel flag.

[Matt48]

That lower flag troubles me, I always see someone with a plumbers crack flashing a browneye.

[Mr Proach]

Presently, there is an extremely intense political focus concerning the inclusitivioty of Australians which IMO is such an hypocrisy given how the traditional owners of this land have been treated.

[wombat watcher]

Presently, there is an extremely intense political focus concerning the inclusitivioty of Australians which IMO is such an hypocrisy given how the traditional owners of this land have been treated.


How about traditional owners help themselves as a first step.
Stop sexual attacks on their women
Stop alcohol and drug and petrol abuse
Stop violence against members of their community in the townships and camps
Send their kids to school
Parents take responsibility for their children or stop having sex with anyone and everyone
Look after and respect housing that has been provided by governments
That is just a few.

[SRFred]

Think you forgot the "Elders" setting standards to improve their communities, then again perhaps they are setting the (low) standards and failing to improve their communities.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The reason the Canadian flag is so well recognised is that it is so simple and uncluttered, displaying the maple leaf as it does.
And I still maintain it isn't really what's on the flag, it's how much it's out there. The Canadian flag could still have a Union Jack in the corner, and 5 ice hockey pucks on it and still be just as recognised as the Canadian flag if it was as prevalent as the maple leaf one is. People only know it as the Canadian flag if they are worldly enough to recognize and equate a maple leaf with a particular country. Look at the Union Jack, nothing about it directly tells you what country it represents, but because of its overwhelming presence, most people will know. Same as the US because it is everywhere. Japan, a red disc on a white background - what says Japan about that? Unless you already know it is Japan's flag, there's no clue. The French flag? What the hell says France about that? Maybe they should put the Eiffel tower on it instead?
Have a look at the Norfolk Island flag, just a clean green Norfolk Island Pine on a green and white three panel flag.
And only the 3 people who live there would have any clue what they were looking at. It doesn't say Norfolk Island to anyone else.
Flags have meaning to the people who live under them. It isn't about making up for other people's ignorance. Do we have to be reduced to pictograms to pander to the lowest common denominator?

[megan]

Flags have meaning to the people who live under them. It isn't about making up for other people's ignoranceWell said, the entire post in fact. If folks were to look at the flags of the world they would identify very few, unless they take close interest in that sort of thing.

[Zombywoof]

The Canadian flag could still have a Union Jack in the corner, and 5 ice hockey pucks on it and still be just as recognised as the Canadian flagPlease. You will never, ever, hear a Canadian say, "ice hockey". It's "hockey", period. :p

[Gnadenburg]

I flew with a Turkish guy who was another emerging expert on the troubles of indigenous Australians. It was about twenty years ago so I don’t think First Nation people’s was widely in use so forgive me if I’ve offended. This guy had read a book on Aboriginal Australians and was quite enthusiastic at telling me historical woes. He really started pi$$ing me off as much as the Chardonnay-Harbour set had back home. So I pressed him on the Ottoman’s and touché he came back with the Dardanelles campaign. So I mentioned his days flying Phantoms and him napalming his own countryman, the Armenians, and he responded by saying they were just fuc$ing gypsies. Extraordinary and no less extraordinary is the virtue signalling and symbolism of many Australians toward an incredibly complex issue. I’m not about to join the thread in debate because the same issues will be around in another twenty years. Not sure a flag will fix the many problems though I wish it would. Dismantling the success and settlement of Australia probably won’t either-though its sure to please many! Not all settlers and convicts were the homicidal killers of Aboriginal Australians. The shameful history deserves better investigation, wider knowledge and perspective. How would a nomadic, diverse and dispersed nation of tribes faired under other European or Asian colonialists? There’s plenty of evidence to map scenarios.

So fly your flag and all will be well.

[dr dre]

Dismantling the success and settlement of Australia probably won’t either-though its sure to please many! Not all settlers and convicts were the homicidal killers of Aboriginal Australians. The shameful history deserves better investigation, wider knowledge and perspective. How would a nomadic, diverse and dispersed nation of tribes faired under other European or Asian colonialists? There’s plenty of evidence to map scenarios.

I think one of the biggest issues is the seeming lack of knowledge of what happened to Indigenous Australians upon settlement. "They'd better be grateful it was the British who settled here, if it was anyone else they'd truly have been stuffed!"

Except they were stuffed. Thoroughly. A substantial proportion (https://www.myplace.edu.au/decades_timeline/1780/decade_landing_22.html?tabRank=3&subTabRank=2) of the pre settlement population were killed. Mostly through introduced diseases, but violent conflict also took it's toll. Up to 65,000 Indigenous killed in conflicts in Queensland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_frontier_wars) alone, more than the number of all Australians killed in WW1, the deadliest post 1901 conflict Australia has been involved in. And barely anyone knows about it, I wasn't really taught about it in school, but you bet your dollar I was given almost weekly lessons on post 1901 Australian military history.

Before getting flags, anthems, heads of state, national days sorted out maybe it should be time to acknowledge our real history. I know it can be hard, I know the vicious debate that was had about the apology to Indigenous children forcibly removed from their families, but 15 years later that culture war debate is over, and those who vehemently deny it's existence have faded into obscurity.

[Mr Proach]

How about traditional owners help themselves as a first step.
Stop sexual attacks on their women
Stop alcohol and drug and petrol abuse
Stop violence against members of their community in the townships and camps
Send their kids to school
Parents take responsibility for their children or stop having sex with anyone and everyone
Look after and respect housing that has been provided by governments
That is just a few.
That kind of behaviour is not unique to First Nation's people, most of which was transferred to them by the occupiers.

[Ascend Charlie]

We're damned if we try to help Them, and we're damned if we don't.

Remember when They were not allowed to have alcohol? Much wailing and gnashing of teeth later, They were permitted to drink. Then alcoholism went rife, families broke down, foetal alcohol syndrome raised its ugly head, and They complained that the nasty white man had forced alcohol on Them.

We then establish a dry community to reduce the violence, and smuggling grog becomes a new way to make a buck.

Social groups try to fix the family breakdowns by removing at-risk children from the drug/alcohol/violence household, and we are accused of stealing the children and causing the loss of tribal history and family values.

Billions are spent on less than a million people. Programs are set up that Non-Them are prohibited from entering, and masses of money are thrown at them. But we can't have a whites-only program, because that's discrimination.

Even football games are run for Them only. But we can't have an Us only game, that's discrimination.

To paraphrase David Strassman's Ted E. Bare, "Have you got a pair of ruby slippers? No? Well, you're f****d."

[Gnadenburg]

But already you’ve quoted a debatable maximum in the number of fatalities in QLD. What of European fatalities? Was it War? If the First Nation were as capable at conflict as the American Indians, settlement would have failed over much of Australia.

Forcibly removing children is horrendous. So were the circumstances of many children. Many here would have seen this in the twenty first century.

I’m happy for a factual acknowledgment of history. However, it is also seems forbidden for factual acknowledgement of what life was really like in tribal Australia right up until now. Especially for women and children. Anthropology and early missionary writings offer a snapshot. Or you can believe agenda laden white-opinion. In my belief, it was impossible not to fail. Even now, the minds and money thrown the way of major issues haven’t been particularly successful.

I’d actually love to know what Aboriginal Australians want? It would probably be surprising that many would be happy to go along with that. However having seen minor indigenous issues of late, the closing of some national parks for example, most of these issues seem polluted by white agendas and ulterior motives.

[Gnadenburg]

That kind of behaviour is not unique to First Nation's people, most of which was transferred to them by the occupiers.

Did you know you are actually the problem?

[dr dre]

That kind of behaviour is not unique to First Nation's people, most of which was transferred to them by the occupiers.

I'm reminded of the story of someone I respect a lot, Jimmy Barnes. Reading his biography "Working Class Boy" he described an upbringing in the working class suburb of Elizabeth in South Australia. He described an almost ghetto environment of youth pregnancy, domestic violence, spousal cheating, alcohol and drug abuse, sexual assault, gang related violence and petty crime. This was all in an environment of almost exclusively English, Scottish and Irish migrants. The countries on the Australian flag.

[dr dre]

But already you’ve quoted a debatable maximum in the number of fatalities in QLD. What of European fatalities? Was it War? If the First Nation were as capable at conflict as the American Indians, settlement would have failed over much of Australia.

European fatalities were a few thousand, so the death toll was about 20x in the other direction. Some pretend it never really happened, but most would call it either a straight up massacre or genocide or would call it war. If it was a war then it wouldn't it be described as the first Australians bravely defending our Australian homeland against invading foreigners despite the odds being stacked against them? Shouldn't that be something to be honoured at the AWM?

[Gnadenburg]

No we were talking about far greater levels of abuse than Elizabeth, SA. A national shame. Perhaps it was too confronting for our society to deal with or perhaps it didn’t suit certain agendas.

[Torukmacto]

Remember being shocked as a teenager while having a casual lunch at our elderly neighbours house . He telling stories about his grandfather coming back on horse back after a successful “ drive “ I was thinking he was talking about kangaroos but I worked out he was talking about people when he was describing how they chose to jump of cliffs into the ocean rather than surrender . He did point out where the tower was on top of farm house they used to defend attacks .
Can’t recall hearing about this in school ? Think this is what scares people ? What really happened and how bad was it .

[Matt48]

"Flags have meaning to the people who live under them. It isn't about making up for other people's ignorance. "

Fair enough, but as to other peoples ignorance, try asking aussies which is the Federation star and what is its meaning.

[Mr Proach]

When you look around the "australian" cities in the temperament climate zones that are close to water with abundant of green vegetation, how many indigenous people do you see? Not that many, why do you think that is? Here's a thought, they were systematically displaced from their land. What is the governments mantra? ... we will choose who comes to australia and the circumstances under which they come. So who granted Cookie and company permission to take up residency in australia?

[Icarus2001]

So who granted Cookie and company permission to take up residency in australia?

Charles Darwin did.

[India Four Two]

Please. You will never, ever, hear a Canadian say, "ice hockey". It's "hockey", period. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/tongue.gif

… unless it’s “field hockey”! ;)

I was very confused by the terminology when I first crossed the Pond, many years ago.

[Ascend Charlie]

How many Britons did the Romans displace? And what did the Romans ever give us? Civilisation is what.

fast forward 2000 years.

When the first fleet arrived, they saw what 50,000 years of indigenous occupation had given provided for them - huge areas of cultivated crops, massive cities with water and sewerage, roads, bridges, art works, sculpture, Sistine Chapel, St Paul's cathedral, the great wall of Wollongong, ..... oh wait... wrong program. Umm..what did they find... Terra Nullius, no real evidence of occupation, just migratory tribes fighting with each other. So the first fleeters occupied it. Tough luck, it was 250 years ago, and They keep crying poor and demanding apologies and more handouts.

To the victors go the spoils.

[Captain Dart]

‘Cookie’, as Mr P refers to one of the world’s finest navigators and captains, did not ‘take up residency’ in Australia. Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet did. Their society was inventing the steam engine whereas the original inhabitants could not boil water. Luckily for them the colonisers were not Spanish, French or Portuguese. However, a clash of civilisations was inevitable.

The Japanese in a later century would not have been benign either, and were fought off by Australians of all backgrounds, including Aboriginals, under one flag.

[Gnadenburg]

European fatalities were a few thousand, so the death toll was about 20x in the other direction. Some pretend it never really happened, but most would call it either a straight up massacre or genocide or would call it war. If it was a war then it wouldn't it be described as the first Australians bravely defending our Australian homeland against invading foreigners despite the odds being stacked against them? Shouldn't that be something to be honoured at the AWM?

European fatalities would have been higher and many settlements failed had the war fighting skills not been so primitive. The intent was often annihilation of the colonialists which is understandable. Australia would have been colonised by other European powers within decades or if not, the sprawl of Asian Kingdoms or Islam inevitable within a century. A primitive, nomadic and diverse tribal First Nation was inevitably doomed.

What happened wasn’t right but how are we supposed to look upon it? Painting Australians as all being homicidal isn’t telling the truth of brutal times of early settlement and a penal colony. The hanging of “Aboriginal outlaws” in the 1840’s saw thousands protest in Melbourne streets. There were terribly evil people throughout our early history but I actually don’t buy that It was an entirety.

Many young people I talked to who vehemently opposing our recent Australia Day celebrations lacked depth in their beliefs and lacked moral conviction when pressed. Will they holiday in Arnhem Land or the Kimberley’s? Nope they are all off to to Bali - with Indonesia being colonialists themselves after ridding themselves of the Dutch. I actually think many just want to protest something to display their virtue.

I never saw an Aboriginal flag flying in the truly remote communities. I wonder what they want? Virtue signalling? Some have their Land but their old ways are probably not palatable with modern society. What they want is going to be a lot different to the urbanised, red headed bloke claiming aboriginality. Yep, as some public servants say, it doesn’t matter how much milk you add, it’s still coffee. Absurd.

A new flag and a new national day won’t change a thing. People who have seen the big issues know this. White people who ignore the real troubling issues for partisan politics or expedient agendas, as they seem to, must suffer some sort of complex superiority that slants toward an unusual form of racism.

[Zombywoof]

… unless it’s “field hockey”! ;)Road hockey? Sure. Ball hockey? Yup. Field hockey? Of course. Ice hockey? Never.

I have been in this country since our flag was the Red Ensign, and I have never once heard anyone say "ice hockey".

Now about this flag thing, my thoughts: If you took the Canadian flag and replaced the maple leaf with the Qantas logo, it would be instantly recognized worldwide as Australian.

Even better would be Mick Dundee riding a 'roo, waving his hat in the air and holding a Foster's in the other hand.

[Derfred]

Very true!

Except that AJ would want more than $20M for it.

[Pinky the pilot]

Foster's

Bah!!! Maidens water!!!:=:ugh:

Try a Coopers Pale Ale!:ok:

[Zombywoof]

Paul Hogan was featured in a series of TV commercials for Foster's here, hence my tongue-in-cheek suggestion.

In Canada, Foster's is produced domestically under license, and tastes just like any other domestic swamp water.

[Ascend Charlie]

I watched the graduation ceremony for Murdoch Uni (Perth) the other day. After the usual speeches by the Chancellor and Vice Chancellor, they had an indigenous ceremony. I have sat through these things in Canada and Alaska, and wondered if the people were really having a laugh at our expense - they could dance and sing and do anything they wanted and call it "traditional" and the spectators would not know that they were being ridiculed.

This ceremony had 3 indigenous men, fat (not traditional?) wearing baggy undies, some white paint drawn on their bodies, and they stamped on the stage to the sound of a didgeridoo. It might have been a joke, it might have been serious, who knows. But, just like The King's New Clothes, the crowd clapped politely. It seems to be a necessary thing in these PC days to say something like "we acknowledge that we are on the Oodna-galahbi land and we thank the traditional owners" before having any sort of event.

[Global Aviator]

Road hockey? Sure. Ball hockey? Yup. Field hockey? Of course. Ice hockey? Never.

I have been in this country since our flag was the Red Ensign, and I have never once heard anyone say "ice hockey".

Now about this flag thing, my thoughts: If you took the Canadian flag and replaced the maple leaf with the Qantas logo, it would be instantly recognized worldwide as Australian.

Even better would be Mick Dundee riding a 'roo, waving his hat in the air and holding a Foster's in the other hand.

You are mistaken about ice hockey!

https://youtu.be/h2EMU4ehHy4

[Pinky the pilot]

It seems to be a necessary thing in these PC days to say something like "we acknowledge that we are on the Oodna-galahbi land and we thank the traditional owners" before having any sort of event.

Yes! And the way things are going, it would not surprise me if one day in the future, such an acknowledgment will be required by law to be made before any Public event!

[Checkboard]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/531x290/torres_flag_b9120a7c8de3410ca721326df91b5bcd65b778b4_05d157c 0f710b463854a51dd48baa63b474018cb.jpg

How does this not look like the rear view of someone bending over?

[aroa]

Just stumbled into this thread. Most entertaining !! Wonderful diversity of opinions, racially, flag wise and even bring in those way up north that belt each other up with sticks on the ice. Top flag too

Strangely enough I was designing a future Australian flag recently. Just doodling.
Gone is the Jack replaced by the Chinese flag and in the blue field the federation star is in front of a line up of the state stars.
ie we are on parade for our new masters..!

An earlier rendition was again the Chinese flag top left and all the state stars scattered about the central Covid symbol indicating the country in disarray as the states all head off on their own trajectories. Fed star disappeared.
Sure is a wonderful world , whatever colour we are.

[Mr Proach]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/531x290/torres_flag_b9120a7c8de3410ca721326df91b5bcd65b778b4_05d157c 0f710b463854a51dd48baa63b474018cb.jpg

How does this not look like the rear view of someone bending over?

That is the "Star Plumber's crack" insignia.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

the term 'Norfolk Pine' is known the world over.
I absolutely doubt that. I would hazard that 99% of the world would have no idea what a Norfolk pine is, let alone what a stylised picture of one looks like, however, the Norfolk Islanders don't care, and aren't making exceptions for the world's ignorance.
what does it say about France - it's abstract symbolism
So it actually says nothing at all about France. But people know it as the French flag. Because of market penetration. They have no idea what it means.
Our flag says nothing about Australia to the rest of the world. The only reason it is unknown is because of lack of market penetration. That shouldn't mean we have to dumb it down to kindergarten level to make up for that. Get it out there in enough people's faces, and it could be a picture of a naughts and crosses game and people will equate it with Australia. It's just brand recognition. The fact that Government policies and mandates like the "Made in Australia logo" do not advertise the flag, and choose to use various other images, just perpetuates the cultural cringe and the problem. It's almost like we are "Officially Ashamed" of our flag, and that is plain wrong.

[aroa]

AP you are right. The Eureka flag is a very good one …and looks good, a neat and simple design, and with a very good meaning for Australia.
A concerted fight against rampant grasping bureaucracy and police. Not enough people in Oz know about it’s genesis and it’s a pity it’s been taken over by some bad guys.
It is the first ‘ Australian ‘ flag.

Soon as I beat a corrupt council in court, up went a flag pole and the Eureka flag.!
That is the flag for me as being a symbol of a free citizen in Oz aka Bureaucratalia. The land of spin and bs.
And bureaurats drunk with power.

[megan]

Actually, people should stop perpetuating that 'under the flag' nonsense. The current Australian (colonial) flag was not the official Australian national flag until 1954. Thus, it did not fly and was not 'fought under' - if you want to run that argument you must accept that the entire Australian Pacific forces were under the command of General Douglas MacArthur, therefore, if they fought 'under' any 'flag' it was the 48 star United States' Flag.You should stop perpetuating nonsense. ;) Both World Wars were fought under the flag. On 3 September 1901, the new Australian flag flew for the first time from the dome of the Royal Exhibition Building in Melbourne.The competition-winning designs were submitted to the British Colonial Secretary in 1902. Prime Minister Edmund Barton announced in the Commonwealth Gazette that King Edward VII had officially approved the design as the flag of Australia on 11 February 1903. The published version made all the stars in the Southern Cross seven-pointed apart from the smallest, and is the same as the current design except the six-pointed Commonwealth Star. The current seven-pointed Commonwealth Star version was introduced by a proclamation dated 8 December 1908. The dimensions were formally gazetted in 1934, and in 1954 the flag became recognised by, and legally defined in, the Flags Act 1953, as the Australian National Flag.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1151x315/flag_8ce778349a098207b92fec9cbcf1446acc62f08a.png

[AerialPerspective]

AP you are right. The Eureka flag is a very good one …and looks good, a neat and simple design, and with a very good meaning for Australia.
A concerted fight against rampant grasping bureaucracy and police. Not enough people in Oz know about it’s genesis and it’s a pity it’s been taken over by some bad guys.
It is the first ‘ Australian ‘ flag.

Soon as I beat a corrupt council in court, up went a flag pole and the Eureka flag.!
That is the flag for me as being a symbol of a free citizen in Oz aka Bureaucratalia. The land of spin and bs.
And bureaurats drunk with power.

Agree. And it's also a fact of history when conservatives like to denigrate the rebellion that spurned it that most don't know, that a quite conservative Victorian populace at the time could not render one jury that would find the rebels guilty. Instead they were all acquitted, the Governor recalled to London in disgrace and a few of the rebels elected to the Victorian Parliament which then proceeded to pass some of the most progressive legislation in the Empire that the time, abolishing property qualifications or income qualifications for the franchise (sadly, universal suffrage was still a way off) and had a not insignificant influence in the choice of the term 'Commonwealth of Australia' which got right up the British nose, vehemently objected to by the royals an the UK government but insisted on by the Federation Committee - a lot of the spirit of that defiance can be traced directly back to Eureka.

Not sure if you're aware, but the Eureka Flag is one of only about 3-4 original flags of significance that still exist in the world - two of the others I believe are the British regimental flag that flew at Rorke's Drift and the Star Spangled Banner - the 15 star, 15 stripe US Flag that flew over Ft McHenry and inspired Frances Scott Key to write his poem which eventually became the US national anthem (shortly afterward, the US adopted rules that set the number of stripes at 13 and the number of stars as one for each state).

[AerialPerspective]

I absolutely doubt that. I would hazard that 99% of the world would have no idea what a Norfolk pine is, let alone what a stylised picture of one looks like, however, the Norfolk Islanders don't care, and aren't making exceptions for the world's ignorance.

So it actually says nothing at all about France. But people know it as the French flag. Because of market penetration. They have no idea what it means.
Our flag says nothing about Australia to the rest of the world. The only reason it is unknown is because of lack of market penetration. That shouldn't mean we have to dumb it down to kindergarten level to make up for that. Get it out there in enough people's faces, and it could be a picture of a naughts and crosses game and people will equate it with Australia. It's just brand recognition. The fact that Government policies and mandates like the "Made in Australia logo" do not advertise the flag, and choose to use various other images, just perpetuates the cultural cringe and the problem. It's almost like we are "Officially Ashamed" of our flag, and that is plain wrong.


Completely the opposite. It's because of the cultural cringe that we are ashamed of the flag because it's not totally Australian. It became the flag by accident not by design and it was a requirement at the time that such 'colonial flags' must include the Union flag to indicate the status of the dominion as 'an imperial dominion of the British Empire'. It is also because we are so unimaginative and artistically moribund that we don't have the guts or the nous to change it.

Canada never had an 'official flag' until 1965 (like us until 1953), their national flag was the Union Flag. They chose for their first 'national flag' an unequivocally Canadian design. Just because some tobacco company held a competition in 1901 and a British arse-licking PM decided to make it official in law in 1953 ("I did but see her passing by and yet I'll love her 'til I die" - sickening, even to largely royalist populace at the time) doesn't mean it 'represents' us.

It has a FOREIGN FLAG on it, thus it can NEVER be Australian.

The clear reason you NEVER see it on most tourism ads, brochures and other collateral, or on aid packages or made in Australia goods is because anyone who sees it overseas is bound to think of Britain.

The ludicrousness of your position is that you seriously think that someone advocating getting the foreign symbol OFF our flag is somehow un-Australian - totally unbelievable.

Hey, guess what. For a long time Finland prominently featured a swastika on their flags and arms - gee, why did they get rid of it, perhaps they just needed to keep it and rely on 'brand recognition'.

[layman]

Jerry Seinfeld thought our flag was the Union Jack at night!

[MickG0105]

... the Governor recalled to London in disgrace ...
Charles Hotham was not "recalled to London in disgrace". That's utter nonsense. Three months after the Eureka Stockade, Hotham was promoted to full Governor and he received a commendation for suppressing the 'outbreak'. Nearly a year after the Eureka Stockade, Hotham resigned the governorship due to failing health and he died in Melbourne a little over a month later.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

The ludicrousness of your position is that you seriously think that someone advocating getting the foreign symbol OFF our flag is somehow un-Australian - totally unbelievable.
I have never said anything of the sort, and you obviously have no idea of what I think.

From a hundred or so posts ago:
I actually quite like the Eureka flag as a design, irrespective of its origins, but that has been appropriated by the bogans, and would not solve the recognition of sundry minorities issue. Perhaps the current flag with the Union Jack removed and the Federation star moved to the canton (examples are out there) might be acceptable?

I will restate my position. I am not against changing our flag. What I am against is changing it to suit the sundry whinges of loud minorities; to suit whatever perceived embarrassment, fad or social issue is the current favourite; or to something finger-painted so that those with the intellects of 3 year olds will not have to think too hard. When I look at our flag, I see our flag. I recognise the Union Jack in the corner for what it is, but I don't see it in singularity above all the rest, like some cannot seem to get past. I like our flag, I think it's a pretty good looking flag compared to some, and until I am presented with an alternate I like, and reasons for change that I like and have some connection, sympathy and more importantly, some investment in, then I'd prefer it not change.

[dr dre]

You should stop perpetuating nonsense. ;) Both World Wars were fought under the flag.



Maybe do a bit more research. Look at these Australian war propaganda posters, all featuring the Union Jack prominently displayed:

Keep the Flag Flying (https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/keep-the-flag-flying-money-is-urgently-needed-buy-war-savings-certificates-war-savings-certificates/KgEkM-RiQDb32w)

AUSTRALIANS, FALL IN! POSTER (https://worldwarera.com/products/south-australians-fall-in-poster)

Propaganda posters (https://www.awm.gov.au/learn/schools/resources/anzac-diversity/european-anzacs/propaganda)

Including this quite racist one:

Australia's Imperishable Record (https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30913)

Whilst there are posters as well showing the National flag and the Red Ensign, they all share one common element - the Union Jack showing loyalty to the empire.

And here’s the point - when discussing the future of the flag it’s irrelevant what some soldiers over 100 years ago “fought under”. The concept of young men being brainwashed to follow a flag into battle to be butchered and turned into mincemeat because of the squabbles of old rich men is grotesque in the extreme. If it’s an argument that the current national flag, that almost 10,000 Australians were slaughtered under on sand dunes in Turkey trying to invade a country that never threatened Australia but was an obstacle to the British Empire, should be kept because of that then it’s a poor argument. How many millions of young men (and civilians, women and children) have been killed because of leaders brainwashing them to kill and die for a piece of cloth?

We’re a modern multicultural and (hopefully) peaceful nation now, we should reflect that on our symbols.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

and it was a requirement at the time that such 'colonial flags' must include the Union flag to indicate the status of the dominion as 'an imperial dominion of the British Empire'.
Rubbish. This was not a requirement of the competition. There were no restrictions on what elements the flag should consist of.
The appeal here made is to the artistic imagination, and designing skills of the seven colonies. It ought to have the effect of giving birth to a Flag which will hold a proud and long enduring place amongst the Flags of the civilized world.

[MickG0105]

My father was in the military in the 50s. Never saw a flag flying anywhere and it was never mentioned. Stop perpetuating the 'fought and died under' nonsense.

Oops! Looks like not everyone got that memo about not fighting under the Australian flag.
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[megan]

History of our flag.

In August and September 1901 judges appointed by the Commonwealth government worked through over 30 000 competition entries to select a design for two Australian flags – one with a blue ground for official use, the other with a red ground for merchant ships. The judges, representing naval and shipping expertise, chose a design for these flags as submitted in five of the entries. The blue flag was first flown from the Exhibition Building Melbourne on 3 September 1901 when the winning design was announced – this was a huge flag (36 by 18 feet), made to order for the occasion.

King Edward VII's approval of the chosen design, slightly simplified, in 1902 was gazetted in February 1903. In June the same year the Admiralty authorised the flying of the red merchant flag on ships registered in Australia. (From February 1922, when the Navigation Act 1912–20 took effect, this was compulsory.) The design was further modified in 1908 to give the Commonwealth six-pointed star (each of its points representing a State) another point to represent Papua and any future territories, making it consistent with the star in the Commonwealth Coat of Arms authorised that year.

The Commonwealth Government, at the time the design was approved in 1901, regarded the two Australian flags as colonial flags, with the Union Flag, usually called the Union Jack, continuing to serve as the national flag. Within the British Empire, blue and red flags (called ensigns) served primarily to identify ships at sea – the blue indicated a government ship and the red a privately owned vessel. That is why the British Admiralty controlled their design.

Only after pressure from Australian nationalists, especially Richard Crouch, Member of the House of Representatives, did the Commonwealth government begin to use the blue Australian flag for Australia's naval forces in 1903. After the House of Representatives passed a special resolution in June 1904, the blue flag was also flown from post offices and Commonwealth buildings in Melbourne and Sydney on national occasions. However, that flag did not replace the Union Flag on forts until 1908, and on the jackstaff on the bow of warships until 1911. Despite these changes in the regulations, the Australian flag was sometimes overlooked. Its absence at the ceremony at Fremantle to welcome the arrival of the first Australian cruiser from Britain in 1913 caused an outcry by nationalists.

The Commonwealth government's reluctance to use the Australian flag also reflected disapproval of its design. At the time of its selection in 1901, some critics, especially in New South Wales, thought the design too similar to Victoria's flag, as the designers had simply removed the crown above the Southern Cross constellation on the Victorian flag and added the Commonwealth star. Many of those critics preferred a flag widely used in eastern Australia during the 19th century, which had become an important symbol in the Federation campaign. This British white ensign featured a blue cross bearing white stars. Edmund Barton had in 1898 persuaded the Federal Association of New South Wales to recommend this flag as the flag of the new Commonwealth. As the first Prime Minister, Barton forwarded this design, as well as the winning design from the competition, to the British government. Later Prime Ministers, John C Watson from New South Wales and Andrew Fisher from Queensland, also thought the selected design unsuitable.

The First World War popularised the use of flags, especially Australian flags, on land. More people also wanted to put Australian flags in state schools, where the Union Flag had largely flown unchallenged since Federation. There was widespread confusion about which was Australia's national flag – the Union Flag or an Australian flag. In the volatile politics of post-war Australia, an Australian flag, unless accompanied by a Union Flag, became a symbol of disloyalty, since the Union Flag was widely regarded as the national flag. That was the flag used to cover the coffins of Australia's most popular war heroes, Sir John Monash and Albert Jacka VC, in 1931 and 1932. There was also confusion about which Australian flag – the red or the blue – could be used by various levels of government and by the people.

In 1924 the Commonwealth government, after much indecision, advised State governments that the Australian blue flag was for Commonwealth use only. Protest forced reconsideration of the issue, and the concession that State governments could use the Australian flag if State flags were not available. However, private organisations and individuals, and even state schools wishing to use an Australian flag were expected to use the red one. Strangely, the official painting of the opening of Parliament House in 1927 features the red Australian flag.

The Victorian Government challenged this direction in relation to State schools in 1938, and, unable to get a response from the Commonwealth, legislated in 1940 to allow schools to fly the Australian blue flag. This increased pressure on the Commonwealth government led it to announce in 1941 and again in 1947 that there was no longer a restriction on the use of that flag.

Finally, when arrangements were being completed for the presentation of an Australian flag to every school as part of the Commonwealth Jubilee celebrations in 1951, a decision had to be made as to whether that flag would be blue or red. The Menzies Government in December 1950 proclaimed the blue flag as the Australian national flag, and subsequently prepared the legislation which became the Flags Act 1953. The Prime Minister expected that the practice of flying the Australian flag and the Union Flag together on national occasions would continue. He also ensured that Section 8 of the Act maintained a person's 'right or privilege', defined in Britain in 1908, to fly the Union Flag.

This document, passed by Parliament in December 1953, was one of the few Commonwealth Bills to be signed by the Monarch rather than the Governor-General. Unlike most of those Bills, this one did not legally require the Queen's assent: Australian flags no longer needed British authorisation. However, the Menzies Government decided to invite Queen Elizabeth herself to sign the document during the 1954 Royal Tour of Australia. Her signature would validate the transition in national flags which was taking place, from Union Flag to Australian national flag.Though the Act is numbered 1 of 1954, it is cited as the Flags Act 1953 – rather confusing, but this document reveals the simple explanation. The Bill was renumbered – the first page shows the correction - and the Governor-General, Sir William Slim, instead of giving his assent as usual in place of the Queen, signed his statement, 'I reserve this Act for Her Majesty's pleasure'. Strictly speaking the document was not yet an Act: in our constitutional monarchy a Bill does not become an Act until it receives the Assent of the Monarch or her appointed representative.

Queen Elizabeth signed this document, and the duplicate assent original for the House of Representatives, on Sunday 14 February 1954, the day before she opened the next session of the Commonwealth Parliament.

The Birdwood Flag, flown at the headquarters of General William Birdwood at the Western Front WWI.


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[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Whilst there are posters as well showing the National flag and the Red Ensign, they all share one common element - the Union Jack showing loyalty to the empire.
Because they were. Volunteers to a man. Not to defend Australia, but to defend the empire. They knew they were not fighting for Australia, but they damn well knew they were fighting as Australians.

[megan]

Because they were. Volunteers to a man. Not to defend Australia, but to defend the empire. They knew they were not fighting for Australia, but they damn well knew they were fighting as Australians.Damn right, we have only had one conflict in which the Australia land mass has been on the receiving end, folk sign up for military conflict for a whole gamut of reasons, my brother was picked in the draft but the Army rejected him on medical grounds, severe limp from broken leg, twelve months of physio fixed that, KIA Vietnam. Likewise I volunteered.And here’s the point - when discussing the future of the flag it’s irrelevant what some soldiers over 100 years ago “fought under”. The concept of young men being brainwashed to follow a flag into battle to be butchered and turned into mincemeat because of the squabbles of old rich men is grotesque in the extreme. If it’s an argument that the current national flag, that almost 10,000 Australians were slaughtered under on sand dunes in Turkey trying to invade a country that never threatened Australia but was an obstacle to the British Empire, should be kept because of that then it’s a poor argument. How many millions of young men (and civilians, women and children) have been killed because of leaders brainwashing them to kill and die for a piece of cloth?I assume from that you say we should have given Hitler free rein, thankfully there were citizens from around the world who volunteered their services, to the RAF for example. Folk don't volunteer for combat to kill and die for a piece of cloth, they volunteer because of a belief in a country and its precepts, even when the country isn't theirs, the flag is but a representation of their country.

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Australian Flag covering the grave of ‘Breaker’ Morant, South Africa, February 1902

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Flag carried to many locations during the war period by a member of the Australian Army Corps

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Military Death Notice, October 1916

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Royal Australian Navy Christmas Card 1915-16. Postcard sent to parents by A.C (Charlie) Connell

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Commemorating the Naval Victory of the HMAS Sydney over the German Light Cruiser Emden, 1914

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[SRFred]

The "FN Flag" reminds me of a beach towel with something dumped in the middle. It would make a great pad for flying the drone off though.

Beyond that there is no evidence they ever had the need for a flag let alone had one so it is really a bit sad really.

[megan]

By the way, I thought the major opposition to the Vietnam War was because conscription was being used??You're right. There are a number of nashos who remember being on the end of vile abuse by protesters when they showed up for induction, heap ****e on the boys, that's the way to do it. My parents had no qualms about two of their boys volunteering for Vietnam, Dad served in New Guinea in the NGVR then ANGAU from the day the war started to the day it ended, Mum who had only been in Salamau for six months was evacuated prior to the Jap invasion, they obviously had different perceptions of service to the country, right or wrong. Mind you, I was far less than impressed when it became known Johnson and McNamara were feeding the next days targets to the NV government, and were dictating how the war was to be fought.

We were never under any threat of invasion in WWII, the Japs never had the capability, but that wasn't appreciated until after the event. Fighting a war is the ultimate game of poker.Well, when I see our flag, I see a colonial symbol that is way out of date with what we are todayWhat I see is some thing recognising our history, but that's just me, you'll find military units jealously guard their units history, insignia etc and you change it under pain of death, though the Navy did change the White Ensign in 1967.

Mum somewhere in there among the Salamau evacuation crowd.

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[dr dre]

What I see is some thing recognising our history, but that's just me, you'll find military units jealously guard their units history, insignia etc and you change it under pain of death, though the Navy did change the White Ensign in 1967.


Well if the Australian military wants to have debate on whether or not to change any of their own flags that’s a debate for them, but we don’t live in a ‘Starship Troopers’ world where only former military have the right to be counted as citizens and vote

The military is a small part of the country, and there is a much larger story of Australia’s history than just the military history. The flag needs to reflect that.

Canada, India, South Africa and Singapore didn’t let any thought of forgetting about their martial past stop them from removing the Union Jack from their flag, so why is it suddenly a factor for Australia?

[rcoight]

And in the context of the time they weren't the slightest bit influenced by propaganda posters of little boys asking their Dad 20 years in the future "What did you do in the Great War Daddy??". They volunteered not because of love of empire but because they were led to believe it was going to be an adventure. To say they 'volunteered' to defend the empire is utter nonsense and totally ignores the context and the environment of the time where they were actively encouraged to believe that it'd be easy and a great adventure.

Wow. How old are you?
You seem to have a remarkable insight into the mindset of why young men volunteered to do what they did over a hundred years ago.
Were you there?