Kangaroos and First Nation Peoples Flags

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

flags 'grow' out of natural progression, they don't get chosen by competitions.
We are doomed then, because any new flag we get will inevitably come as the result of a competition (submissions, shortlist, final list , referendum). It will never evolve, it will just appear.
NZ is to be admired for how it has achieved this.
And yet strangely enough, they have a flag remarkably similar to ours, and don't seem in a hurry to change it. They too seem to be happy to live with what they've got because they don't like the alternatives. For all their Maori inclusiveness, they don't seem keen to have it reflected in their flag.

[megan]

AP has never served so has absolutely no insight as to why lads signed up.Well if the Australian military wants to have debate on whether or not to change any of their own flags that’s a debate for themHow kind of you to be so overwhelmingly inclusive.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Canada, India, South Africa and Singapore didn’t let any thought of forgetting about their martial past stop them from removing the Union Jack from their flag
But each of their current flags resulted from compromises made to keep the various internal parties happy. Losing the Union Jack was one of the prime drivers because of each ones unique cultural or racial make up.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

when we were under threat of invasion, most of our forces were in Europe fighting for bloody Britain.
In Africa actually, and again, the Australian troops at that time in the Middle East were volunteers. They joined up to fight for Britain (and Empire), and that's where the fight was. When the Pacific war began, most (but not all) came back to the Pacific theater to defend Australia because that's where that fight was. Australians (apart from the RAAF) did not have a great deal of participation in the European theater.

[megan]

A Britain that stated we were 'expendable' and had entered the war of her own free will despite knowing she didn't have the resources to fight it and frankly, had to be bailed out by the United States yet againChurchill had a lot on his plate, war raging over a good part of the globe, was Australia expendable? Like Singapore, Malaysia et al yes, a combatant may have need to cede ground in the short term in order to play the long game, had Japan invaded it would have been regained when Japan was defeated. Sure the populace may have had a hard time, as do all folk when war arrives on their door step. It's the reality of war. You can't complain about the Germany first then Japan policy.

Churchill also knew that the USA was needed in order to defeat Germany, and pulled out all stops to get the US involved, some thing he achieved. The man deserves credit for backing Poland and rallying the forces to rid the world of Hitler, who else would have done so?

Now the flag.1901 – 3 September (now Australian National Flag Day) - Prime Minister Barton announced the winning design of the government’s flag competition at a public ceremony. Australia’s new flag of “Stars and Crosses” is raised for the first time at approximately 2.30 pm. Featuring the Southern Cross, Union Jack and Commonwealth Star on a dark blue field the large flag about 11 metres long, flutters magnificently from the mast on the main dome of the Royal Exhibition Buildings, Melbourne – the site of the first Federal Parliament.

Hence the Australian National Flag (Blue Ensign) becomes the official national flag of Australia. The Red Ensign of the new flag becomes the flag of Merchant Naval Shipping.

1901 – 16 September - First Vice Regal (and formal) raising of the Australian Flag by Governor-General, Lord Hopetoun at Townsville, Queensland.

1903 – 20 February - King Edward VII approves the design for the official Australian flag (blue background) and the Australian Red Ensign for Australia’s merchant ships and private pleasure craft (Commonwealth Government Gazette No 6). The points on the stars of the Southern Cross are adjusted from 9, 8, 7, 6 & 5 to a simpler pattern of four stars of 7 points and one of 5.

1904 – 1 July to 23 November - Australian flag flies at Olympic Games, St Louis USA, where the Australian team consists of one competitor.

1908 – 27 April to 31 October - The Australian flag is raised at the London Olympic Games in celebration of the first medal win for Australia which was for Rugby football. Our flag has been the host flag for the Olympic Games on two great occasions, at Melbourne in 1956 and Sydney in 2000.

1908 – 19 December - A 7th point is added to the Commonwealth Star to represent all Australia’s federal territories collectively. (Commonwealth Government Gazette No 65). There has been no alternation to our flag since this amendment.

Dec 1908 - The Australian Army gives Military Order, No 58/08 to direct all military establishments (Stations) to fly the “new” Australian flag (Blue Ensign).

1911 - The formation of the Royal Australian Navy is marked by the adoption of the Australian flag as the ensign to be “worn” (flown) from the jackstaff at the bow of all RAN commissioned ships and also at the mainmast as the “battle flag” when a ship is in combat.

1912 - Christmas Day – Frank Wild, a member of the Sir Douglas Mawson Australasian Antarctic Expedition 1911-14, hoists the Australian flag and formally takes possession of Queen Mary Land (now part of Australian Antarctic Territory) in the name of King George V and the Australian Commonwealth.

5th Aug 1914 - The Australian flag is used for the first time in an act of war when it’s flown over Queenscliff Army Fort, Victoria The fort opened fire to prevent the German steamer, Pfalz, from leaving port.

1914 – 9 November - HMAS Sydney displays a large Australian flag as a “battle” ensign during her celebrated victory over the German warship, SMS Emden. The success of HMAS Sydney is an international news event and establishes the fighting reputation of the Royal Australian Navy.

1917 – 20 September - Australian forces are victorious at the Battle of Polygon Wood, Belgium, during WWI. Lt A.V.L. Hull, who is later killed in action, plants the Australian flag on an enemy pillbox (machine gun post). The scene is subsequently depicted on a popular postcard which is sold to raise funds for wounded soldiers.

1918 – 8 August - General Sir John Monash advises the Governor-General that his troops in France have broken through the German lines and have raised the Australian flag after liberating Harbonnieres.

1928 - Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith carries three Australian flags in his aircraft, the Southern Cross, on the first flight to cross the Tasman Sea to New Zealand. These flags were subsequently presented to Sydney Hospital.

1934 – 23 March - Commonwealth Government Gazette No 18 features a line drawing of the exact specifications of the official blue Australian flag and the merchant shipping flag, the Australian Red Ensign.

1940 – 19 July - The second HMAS Sydney, with the Australian flag flying as “battle” ensign, defeats the Italian navy’s cruiser, Bartolomeo Colleoni.

1941 – 15 March - Prime Minister Robert Menzies issues a press statement encouraging the public to fly the blue Australian flag on land and the Australian Red Ensign at sea.

1942 – 19 February - The Australian flag that flies outside the residence of the Administrator of the Northern Territory is riddled with bullet holes during a Japanese air raid. It is the first flag to come under enemy attack on Australian soil. The same flag is used in Darwin for a peace ceremony in 1946. It is flanked on one side by the Australian flag which flew at Villiers-Bretonneux in 1917 and on the other by the Australian flag flown by the HMAS Sydney when it destroyed the Italian cruiser Bartolomeo Colleoni in the Mediterranean in 1940. This precious flag from Darwin is now on permanent display at the Australian War Memorial.

1942 - Australia’s flag is raised as the allies retake Kokoda, New Guinea.

1943 – 25 November - Sgt Tom Derrick raises the Australian flag on a shell torn tree at Mount Sattelberg, New Guinea, after having destroyed ten enemy machine-gun posts. His incredible feat earns him the ultimate award for valour, the Victoria Cross.

1945 – 12 September - The first flag to fly over the liberated Singapore is an Australian flag secretly made in a prisoner of war camp. Another Australian flag raised at the liberation of Singapore is now framed and held at the headquarters of the Returned and Services League, Canberra with a plaque which reads “This important artefact was concealed in Changi Prison by Captain Strawbridge MBE, from 1942-1945. It was raised over the gates of the prison, the day of formal liberation in September 1945.” A number of Australian flags were secretly made of scavenged pieces of cloth by Australian prisoners of war in various enemy camps. Some of these precious flags are now lodged in the Australian War Memorial.

1947 – 24 February - Prime Minister Ben Chifley issues a statement encouraging more general and widespread use of the national flag.

1947 – June - Letter from Howard Beale MP to flag makers to request they re-direct their manufacture to the Australian National Flag (Blue Ensign) rather than the Red Ensign (except for its proper use in shipping).

1951 - The Commonwealth Government introduces the presentation of the Australian flag to all public schools. This has become a tradition.

1953 – 2 December - Parliament passes 1953 Flags Act. The flag is confirmed by legislation as the chief national symbol by law, custom and tradition and its official title becomes the “Australian National Flag”.

1954 – 14 February - Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II personally gives her assent by signing the Australian Flags Act (Amended) No 1 of 1954.

1963 - Prime Minister Sir Robert Menzies authorises the flying of the Australian National Flag by night (under illumination) and day over the capital city, Canberra. The flying of illuminated national flags at night time is now an international practice.

1967 – 1 March - Introduction of the Australian White Ensign as the distinguishing flag for the Royal Australian Navy. It is to be “worn” (flown) in conjunction with the Australian National Flag which was adopted by the Navy when it was formed in 1911.

1981 – 24 March - Flags Amendment Act 1981 describes Australian National Flag as a blue flag consisting of the Southern Cross, Commonwealth Star and Union Jack – our unique flag of “Stars and Crosses”.

1998 – 24 March - Flag Amendments Bill amends the Flags Act 1953 to ensure that the Australian National Flag can only be changed if the Australian electorate approves. The effect of this amendment is to confirm that the ownership and control of the Australian National Flag is indeed in the hands of the Australian people who it represents.

2001 – 20 September - Governor-General, Peter Hollingworth, proclaims the Centenary Flag Warrant. The Centenary Flag is the flag presented on 3 September 2001 to the Prime Minister by the Australian National Flag Association at the flag centenary celebration – Royal Exhibition Buildings, Melbourne. It is a fully sewn, satin, Australian flag, inscribed with a special flag centenary message. This flag of “Stars and Crosses” features the crimson thread of kinship, which symbolically links past and current generations to future generations of Australians. It will be used for future important national events.I can almost guarantee you that no one in the trenches at Gallipoli gave a rats arse about a flag or any other piece of bunting.Seems quite a lot did in various theatres. Hope you noted what the RAN decided to fly on the jackstaff in 1911 and as the battle flag when in combat.

[AerialPerspective]

AP has never served so has absolutely no insight as to why lads signed up.How kind of you to be so overwhelmingly inclusive.

And how did you arrive at that conclusion "AP has never served".
Sorry, does pulling on a uniform and following orders somehow enhance ones ability to understand what motivated people to do so??

Are you really going to sit there and arrogantly assert that because someone does, the rest of us are idiots and even if we read the listen to the account of people who were in WWI (including my Grandfather, in the British Army) that we somehow lack the ability to absorb that information??

For your information, you have absolutely no idea what I would or wouldn't do - if this country was invaded, you bet I'll pick up a gun an fight because I love my family and I won't have anyone threaten them or try to destroy my country's way of life. You have absolutely ZERO right to question that which you have by that holier than thou statement you made about me not serving.

My other Grandfather was a Police Officer for 39 years, starting in 1930. In peacetime I would contend he received similar injuries (although more often) and abuse and lasting psychological damage than any soldier would receive - he 'didn't serve' so does that make his service in the police force somewhat lesser because it wasn't in the Army, Navy or Air Force?? I'd contend he did more for his community and the State as he rose to quite a high rank than most people do.

And just for your info, he despised every ex-military person they put up to run the Police Force, because not one of them had a clue about civilian policing. That's not to say all military people are leaderless and rudderless, but rather a failure of government to recognise that protecting and serving the community is different to fighting the country's enemies or being trained to do so.

This 'aura' around the military that it is somehow sacrosanct and the repository of all virtue and goodness is just jingoism and it needs to be called out.

You obviously, at some stage, chose to spend part of your career in the military. Good on you, I hope it was everything you expected it to be. Being born and coming of age between wars and US police actions and the like, even if I wanted to there would have been no impetus for me to do so anyway, I chose a career in the private sector.

You don't need to 'serve' in the military to gain some sort of superiority over others that you throw back in their face whenever they venture an opinion.

You also don't get to determine what I would or would not have done if the need and the requirement was there to do it.

I know some pretty high ranking military personnel or have in my career and you know what, not one of them ever resorted to identifying that I 'never served' and therefore are incapable of knowing why they did. They just got on with it and acted like normal people, not making a big deal by - having no real argument - trotting out the old chestnut of "well, you never served so......."

As another poster mentioned on this thread. This is a Constitutional representative democracy, the basis of Australian Government is that the government is ".... directly elected by the people of the Commonwealth..." - the Constitution doesn't add that people who 'served' will get a disproportionately higher say in certain matters or get more than one vote at elections.

If you think they are entitled to more of a say because 'they served' then what the hell were they fighting for.......

BTW, you mentioned some time back that Churchill had a lot on his plate - yep, including orchestrating and doing nothing to then avoid, the Bengal Famine.

[dr dre]

the Constitution doesn't add that people who 'served' will get a disproportionately higher say in certain matters or get more than one vote at elections.



That’s the ‘Starship Troopers’ world I was hinting at (check out the movie for a brilliant satirical expose of fascist propaganda dressed up in a cheesy sci fi flick).

Again my point is - we’re discussing the flag to be a symbol of the current nation state, not the military. It doesn’t matter if people in the military “served or fought” under it at some point in history, I bet the current national flag has been lifted at many points in history. The current Olympics for example, it’s been raised a few times (as an aside I’ve also noticed the Olympic team uniforms are devoid of any elements containing the current Union Jacked Australian flag).

Now does the raising of the flag at the Olympics block us from raising a different flag in the future? No, not at all. So I don’t see why it being used in some military contexts in the past is now an impenetrable road block to a future change.

[dr dre]

And following on from that I checked the uniforms of the other Australian national teams. Olympic teams, Wallabies, Socceroos, Kookaburras, Matildas, Boomers etc.

Most of them feature the Southern Cross, the Commonwealth Star, the Coat of Arms, but none of them feature any elements that contain the Union Jack. It seems the sporting world moved on from the current National flag a long time ago.

[SRFred]

And following on from that I checked the uniforms of the other Australian national teams. Olympic teams, Wallabies, Socceroos, Kookaburras, Matildas, Boomers etc.

It seems the sporting world moved on from the current National flag a long time ago.

You'd probably be better looking at the Australian currency rather than the flag for most sportspersons.

[dr dre]

You'd probably be better looking at the Australian currency rather than the flag for most sportspersons.

Those players would still get paid their same whether or not their uniforms carried Union jack elements of the national flag or not.

The point being I guess with the input players and officials had into the uniforms, that there was no impetus from anyone to feature a Union Jack element on any part of an Australian team uniform. When given a choice people representing the country don’t want that element on their uniforms.

[Ascend Charlie]

So, whose head do you want on our coins?
Albo?
Julia?
Dame Edna?

[dr dre]

So, whose head do you want on our coins?
Albo?
Julia?
Dame Edna?

One, they’d be far more appropriate than the current foreigner. And let’s be honest when she kicks the bucket we aren’t going to put Big Ears (or his brother!) on our coins are we?

Two, here’s an idea, how about no one? Who says we need a person there, plenty of nation’s notes and coins don’t feature a person, maybe just an outline of Australia or a Coat of Arms or similar? It’s probably going to happen anyway when QEII buys the farm so might as well discuss it now.

[AerialPerspective]

And following on from that I checked the uniforms of the other Australian national teams. Olympic teams, Wallabies, Socceroos, Kookaburras, Matildas, Boomers etc.

Most of them feature the Southern Cross, the Commonwealth Star, the Coat of Arms, but none of them feature any elements that contain the Union Jack. It seems the sporting world moved on from the current National flag a long time ago.

You're completely right. I have noticed this for decades, a decidedly earnest effort to use anything that says Australia but not the flag because it, well, says Britain, despite what apologists who try to pass it off as something else try to say. When it comes down to it, the upper hoist, the canton, in heraldic terms reserved for the symbol of highest honour, contains the flag of another country.

[AerialPerspective]

So, whose head do you want on our coins?
Albo?
Julia?
Dame Edna?

That old ridiculous retort, there is no rule that mandates anything on coins. We don't have to have anyone. Just replace the monarch's head with the Coat of Arms. It's the last thing that needs to be considered because it will cost ZERO to achieve. Every coin that is minted has a new image of QEII created, whether it's identical to the previous one or not, because of the way coins are minted (and hint, because the date has to be changed). This way, the cost is zero over and above the current practice because the mint will simply say to the engraver, do Henry Parkes or the Coat of Arms or a kangaroo's arse for all I care. The United States has founding fathers and previous Presidents, Lincoln is on the 1c with the Lincoln Memorial on the other side and that basically follows for other Presidents and non-Presidents such as Franklin when it comes to notes and coins.

QEII doesn't appear on every banknote, in fact, she was potentially going to be removed from the $5. An alternative design was floated with Henry Parkes but it was dropped (probably because we have a conservative government).

[Gnadenburg]

The reason the flag hasn’t changed is the gut feeling of the majority is the issue has been hijacked by questionable progressives. You can see here, the wordsmiths using Wikipedia quickly moved on from the difficulties and trauma of indigenous Australians. It was little more than virtue signalling; the rest of us aren’t going to buy “internalised colonialism” having seen the issues first hand and the gut feeling it’s just another progressive agenda that will go nowhere.

If you’ve read this thread please educate yourself on some of the issues thrown right back at those of us who just question why? Understand history, what was going on in the world at the time and try and find accuracy in the subjects such as the Frontier Wars or what young Australians may have fought for. I’m quite shocked having returned to Australia at the complexities of agendas. We have Manchurian Candidates in politics, a flag or indigenous issues they really couldn’t care about, however, if it can break alliances or cohesion they’ll be on to it. Business interests ably exemplified by former politicians advocating not so subtlety for the CCP.

Make a hobby of being a bit more of a historical sleuth and be ready to stand up when the wool is pulled over your eyes. It’s quite frightening having seen the COVID world and the power of social media and still the conventional press.