Our Secret Society

[MLS-12D]

I came across this AvWeb article today [www.avweb.com/articles/beacon/atbt0001.html], and it reminded me of Gordon Baxter's column in a long-ago issue of "Flying" magzine, where he described a research project in which he posed as "Hank Snead", a would-be pilot who approached many different flying schools and all too often got the cold shoulder.

It's sad to say, but I have to agree that there is a fair bit of snobbishness in flying. The professional pilot looks down on the PPL; the Baron owner looks down on the fellow with a 1/3 share in a 152; the tailwheeler looks down on the tricycle pilot; the high-timer looks down on the low-timer; etc etc. :(

Why do we act like this? Are we all really that insecure?

[Aerobatic Flyer]

I think some pilots probably go through a phase of looking down at others..... Once they've reached the stage where they can look down with some justification, they tend to be totally unassuming and humble.

That must make it quite amusing for them at times when they get looked down upon by people who should be looking up.

Moral: don't look down on anyone, in case they're a retired test pilot, or a ferry pilot with hundreds of Atlantic crossings behind them, or a CAA Instrument Rating Examiner, or the leader of the Red Arrows or just a student pilot with the potential to become any of the above!:) :)

[MLS-12D]

I agree 100%. Those with the most knowledge and experience are indeed usually quite unassuming.

Flying should be fun, and all newcomers should be warmly welcomed (we need all the friends that we can get!). I think that most of us know this, but all too often we don't follow through. For my part, I will try to overcome my usual shyness and befriend the next passerby at the airfield. :)

I think many pilots need to understand that while their licenses and various ratings may be hard won, the great majority of the general public couldn't care less. It's just a hobby or a job, for crying out loud ... ;) Reminds me of the old saying (with apologies for the sexist language to all the aviatrixs out there): "Son, never ask a man if he's a pilot. If he is, he'll let you know; if he's not, you'll just embarass him". How self-important can you get?!

[WALKER999]

Hi ,MLS-12D its a sad fact of life that a few folk are unable to acept you for the way that u are , I was once insulted in an estate agents wearing my very scruffy cement coverd work cloths and handed a leaflket 50k less than the one I had gone in to collect , Needles to say when we viewd on the following Sunday The sellers sacked the agent and we did not bye based on that one ladies lack of visioin we are what we are coulor creed vocabulary should not matter BUT IT ALWAYS will my friend
from my point of view its how u live,
not what uve got or how u look that counts .

Only once has this happend to me with a fellow pilot and he was a 25 year old 1st officer and so full of him self that his own **** wouldnt stink
Happy landings
Joe :eek:

[MLS-12D]

I don't want to come across as too negative. I personally have not had many unpleasant experiences ... but there is not as much openess or comraderie among pilots as I would like.

Seems like some (not all!) recreational pilots are too full of themselves, and some (not all!) professional pilots (esp. instructors) are too down at the mouth about the poor job prospects and poor pay.

[LPL]

Have to agree totally with above posts.

I have been flying , lets say a loooong time and looking back, flying is NOT made up of the 'salt of the earth' friendly, one of the guys, all in the same family, type of people.

But then again, perhaps it's me

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Keef]

I've met all kinds.

Some of my best friends are pilots, and a nicer bunch you couldn't hope to meet.

There are some who think they are a superior species (and infallible) - they get up my nose, and probably don't have many friends, either.

Generally, the more experience they have, the more unassuming and friendly they are.

How many of us have "talked at" someone for several minutes, and then found it's John Farley or Rufus Heald or Neville Duke or someone of that ilk?

PPRuNe bashes seem to attract a goodly mixture!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Too often, and the point made about the humility of experience is absolutely spot on. (That said, the experienced occasionally can do a wonderful job of putting down the loudmouthed and less so). If I may recount a story involving Pilot A (Male, well heeled, actually a thoroughly nice chap), and Pilot B (Female, elderly, former ATA delivery pilot, hundreds of hours of wartime flying including 110 different Spits in her logbook).


A: Hey, you'll never guess what I've been flying?
B: What's that
A: I bought myself a flight in a Spitfire
B: Really, that's brilliant, which mark?


Actually, A and B are old friends, and A just forgot himself and has been telling the story to illustrate how he forgot his own relatively meagre experience ever since (I'm neither by the way, but know both well).


But, don't lose track of the difference between banter - which to the uninitiated can seem quite vicious, and genuine put-downs, which still happen too often.

G


N.B. As a microlight pilot who owns his own, I find a suitable retort to any hirer I bump into who says I'm not a real pilot 'cos it's such a small cheap aeroplane, is to ask them how many hours they get each year. Retorts can be an art-form on their own.

[rotated]

My first flying instructor was a cast-iron b1tch, building hours at the expense of those unfortunate to find themselves with her in the right seat. Every time she opened her mouth I felt compelled to pull cabin heat (and carb heat, too, for good measure!). I have never felt so unworthy to be in the air or even around an airplane as when I was in her presence; she almost caused me to give up before I got another instructor. Fortunately, she was far in the minority.
I have noticed a bit of a phenomenon, though, it sometimes seems as though the friendliness of a lot of pilots is directly inversely proportional to the horsepower of their airplane...

[BlueLine]

Could it be Human Nature? it is not unique to aviation!

[AerBabe]

MLS-12DI will try to overcome my usual shyness and befriend the next passerby at the airfieldAbsolutely... you never know what aircraft they own and might offer you a flight in ;)

I have experienced some coldness, but I've never been sure whether it's because I'm female and they are not sure whether I'm a wife/hanger on, or a pilot in my own right. On most occasions a few minutes of talking, to show that I do know what I'm talking about (or know enough to pretend I do!) is all it takes for them to behave normally :) There have been a number of occasions when people have acted as if I don't exist though. :mad:

[Keef]

AerBabe - you mean you *do* exist? I thought you were a figment of my deranged imagination.

I know (from bitter experience) never to ignore:

1. a woman
2. a pilot
3. a policeperson

[AerBabe]

So I should join the policeforce ;)

[Keef]

... as a heli pilot.

[AerBabe]

Don't the poice force have anything aerobatic? :(

[Keef]

You jest! ;)

Mrs Plod the Aerobatic Pilot?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[AerBabe]

Oi!!! That's Dr Plod to you :D

[Keef]

Sorry y'r honour.

Dr Mrs Plod the Aerobatic Porcine Aviatrix?

Nah.

AerPlodess

Nah

Oh, I must finish packing and stop playing.

[Whirlybird]

Joking aside, as a woman I've been ignored fairly frequently, and patronised even more often. The time it was most obvious was at the first PFA Rally I went to, where I feel in love with the Jabaru, then only available as a kit. I walked round it, stroked it, looked at the plans and price lists, walked round it again, admired it, sat in it, all but picked it up and took it home. Meanwhile the enthusiastic salesman buttonholed every male within yelling distance who dared to cast a glance at it. He completely ignored me - well, a woman looking at a kit build only aircraft is invisible isn't she? :rolleyes: I was tempted to tell him I'd planned to buy two, but just changed my mind - unfortunately I didn't think of that till half an hour after I'd left the stand.

Then there was Chris, who went to buy an R44, with her own money. Apparently they just weren't expecting a 20-something female; it hadn't occurred to them that Chris could be... Christine. :eek:

I can probably think of many similar stories, but I've told them all on other threads, so I won't bother.

[englishal]

The best way to deal with stuck up tossers who have their heads stuck so far up their own @rses..... is to ignore them.......As for the Commercial pilots who thinks the sun shines out of their bottom, and the whole world owes them a living.....I haven't got any time for them.

From my observations and encounters, the ones who're worst are the "Commander James Bigglesworth-Smyth RN" types (the same ones who fly the Blue Ensign from their yacht and think they always have right of way :)) and the young instructors who think that they're God because they graced the halls of O*T.

(hmm, I'm not usually this agressive,must be the bottle(s) of red wine talking :D )

[edited becasue on reflection, I'd like to point out that not all of the instructors I've come across are as described above, only a select few. In fact I know a great bloke who went to said school, works as an instructor, and can't stop slagging them off;)]

Cherio
EA:)

[Tee]

The first group of instructors I came across many years ago were a bunch of hour-building little boys whose arrogance was breathtaking and whose interest in teaching students was less than nil. If you weren't talked down to, you were ignored - unless you had something to offer them which would progress their own career plans.

[Doudou]

I was just thinking, we have choice between Never, occasionnally and too often,
but ONE IS ALREADY TOO OFTEN:mad:

[FlyingForFun]

AerBabe, we all know the only reason you want to join the police force is because of all those men in uniform :D Although if they had aerobatic aircraft, that would definitely be a bonus :)

I have to admit having come across this attitude only very rarely. (We're back on to being ignored now - I know lots of people who are more interested in policemen and women in uniform than they are in aircraft!) One was when I was looking for a school at which to get my PPL. Of the four schools I visited, two were very friendly and helpful. At the other two, I was all but ignored - I was handed a brochure when I went out of my way to ask for one, but that was all.

On the other hand, I have caught myself inadvertantly being the arrogant pilot a few times. I hope I've managed to stop myself more often than I've let it go unnoticed. Generally I don't have a problem around non-pilots - either they're not interested, in which case we talk about a different subject, or they are interested, in which case they're quite happy for me to talk about aeroplanes all day. But sometimes I find a non-pilot who knows more about aviation than I do, and it can be hard not to lecture them on points which they don't need lecturing on.

FFF
----------

[Grim Reaper 14]

The problem with aviation is that (as I may have mentioned before) it's never enough. Doesn't matter what the specifics are.
Just got your PPL? Great, IMC next?
IMC? GREAT! Twin next?
Just got your twin rating? FANTASTIC!!!! Now what?!?!?!

I don't think it's meant to sound condescending, it's just that on the day I passed my GFT, an instructor said, "What next?" to me. I was staggered. When you pass you driving test, no one ever asks what next (I know it's different, but the point is kind of similar). The attitude of 'superiority' comes from someone with more than you, automatically assuming that you want to be at their level. Unfortunately for a lot of egos this isn't the case, but bearing in mind that whatever they have still isn't enough, it would never cross their mind that you are so lacking in ambition that you aren't striving to attain their level. We all have something to offer someone else (hence PPRuNe), we just need to recognise that wisdom isn't a downward cascading system, it works both ways, and is all the better for it.

I have no desire to be ATPL, deal with it.



p.s. How many 2+ page threads lately have only reached these 'heady' levels because Aerbabe and Keef haven't got their own Forum?;)

[Dimensional]

It's hard not to notice a degree of it. Being a young, impoverished student, I fly once every month if I'm lucky. :( Usually I turn up, little bag in hand containing headset, chart and checklist (and other stuff), and whenever I walk into the bar at my home airfield I get at least one look along the lines of "and just what the fcuk do you think you're doing here?" For instance, one day someone actually did say to me "And so, when do you want to be a proper pilot, and stop playing with Flight Sim" ... :mad:

Likewise, GR14, I've come across the "you need the next rating to be good" attitude -- I've got a PPL, and I'm happy. By next year I'll have the taxpayer paying for my aviation fix (hopefully ... CUAS or ULAS here I come :)). Although the CFI thinking I had a CPL brought a smile to my face ...

[Rod1]

I turned up for my first power-flying lesson, booked in and got ignored. I tried several times to join in with the chat, I was ignored.

Eventually the “experts” got round to the fact that there was absolutely no wind, and how marvellous it was for doing circuits. I jumped in with “I always prefer 10k down the strip”. Silence for 5 seconds, then “What do you fly”. After this they were as nice as pie!

It was not a good advert, especially as the first lesson started 45 min late, but it all worked out in the end.

Rod