Lear Jet Down

[KPax]

Looks very serious, RIP and thoughts go out to all involved. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10349325/10-set-private-Learjet-goes-flames-near-San-Diego-no-expected-survivors.html

[His dudeness]

Youtube video with ATC


Sickening. I hope its not another visual turn to base/finals stall crash...

[jethro15]

N880Z Learjet Crash El Cajon San Diego California - Circling to Land - YouTube

[340drvr]

That's tough to listen to.
RIP

[B2N2]

Just discussing this with a friend.
Thats a tough airport with short(ish) runways for a jet especially when wet.
LOC27 has a 7(!) degree descent angle from 2500’ down in 3 miles.
Circling not authorized at night, that’s why they cancelled IFR.
They were “maneuvering” but not “circling”.

[gtaflyer]

Heard that they hit power lines, visual approach at. Night

[B2N2]

Heard that they hit power lines, visual approach at. Night

That’s not what the doorbell video shows.

[runway30]

I don't think night was the problem, I think the weather bring so bad they lost sight of the runway lights was a problem.

[ShenziRubani]

circle to land at night after changing runway. Even though this is an already challenging airport, Always back up with an approach, especially at night with cloud layers and love that stable approach criteria. Looks more like a stall in the circle, similar to the TEB accident or the 650 at Truckee.

[filejw]

circle to land at night after changing runway. Even though this is an already challenging airport, Always back up with an approach, especially at night with cloud layers and love that stable approach criteria. Looks more like a stall in the circle, similar to the TEB accident or the 650 at Truckee.

Rather sad that people keep repeating the same mistakes .

[B2N2]

I think it’s (un)safe to say that this was not the first time the crew was doing this.
It was the last time though.

[Propellerhead]

From the horrible audio recording it’s clear the flight path was unrecoverable from when he starts shouting on the radio, which would indicate either a stall or massively nose down attitude that’s too late to pull up from. The flight path clearly degraded pretty quickly to a loss of control accident. I don’t know much about private jet ops, esp in the states - do both pilots have full type ratings, and do they generally fly leg and leg about, or is the co-pilot more of a radio operator? Clearly there was a loss of SA before loss of control - I wonder how well they had briefed a late runway change and what their bottom line for cancelling IFR was. Does anyone have an Actual met? If both pilots peering out the window trying to acquire the runway lights then perhaps distracted from monitoring of the instruments.

[Capt Fathom]

You’re certainly making many assumptions there Propellorhead.
Especially ‘I don’t know much about private jet ops, esp in the states’.

[Propellerhead]

Not assumptions, just speculation. As always I await the NTSB report with interest. Meanwhile if there’s anything we can learn from this then probably worth the discussion.

[Arnie Madsen]

.

He was supposed to be at 1400 ft to approach Runway 27R .... he was about 800 ft .... then during his north turn above Pepper Drive he came face to face with Rattlesnake mountain which is about 1100 feet ... then the three "OH SHeeT" expletives as he either tried to power up or turn sharp left or both ... then stalled and near vertical onto Pepper Dr.

..

[Propellerhead]

Does the Learjet have enhanced GPWS? But in the landing config the terrain clearance floor may be quite happy until the last minute. Especially in a turn as it only looks straight ahead. Also, the approach plate shows a LOC/DME but with circling minima? Why doesn’t it have minina for the LOC? Too steep?

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x1711/e47e3f9a_8a1e_486b_9914_b199242e173f_256aac9610755f85944a00f be40dbfa11ff588dd.jpeg

[Gbflyer]

Local opinion is that the pilot decided to switch runways as the aircraft was based here, to save a couple of minutes taxiing time to his hanger. Unfortunately his approach height in positioning to the other runway was too low and he realised that too late, resulting in a stall as he attempted to gain height. It is better to arrive slightly later than not arrive at all, my instructor used to tell me. No high power lines involved, only street height lines lost.

[global2express]

That's a possibility, however, I think it's more likely that they chose 27R because the wet landing performance of the Learjet was insufficient for runway 17.

@Proppellerhead:
Yes, too step, from DEBEY it's a 6.88 ° descent angle to the threshold.

[Avman]

That's a possibility, however, I think it's more likely that they chose 27R because the wet landing performance of the Learjet was insufficient for runway 17.

Interesting point too, however, I would have thought that if it was indeed so, they would have made their planned intention known to ATC much sooner. I tend to think that it was a last minute decision which left little time to execute a tricky low altitude manoeuvre (in reduced visibility) effectively.

[maninbah]

The airport has only 3 approaches. Time 7pm (night)
LOC-D from the SE but not aligned directly with 27R and circling N/A at Night. Comes down over terrain and needs 1200’ AGL 1 1/2sm
GPS 9L from the west. LNAV/VNAV down to 1000’ AGL and needs 3 SM aligned with the runway
GPS 17 from the north. LP (not everyone can do an LP) or LNAV down to 1000’ AGL and needs 1 1/2, not aligned and a wet Rwy 17 is only 4300ft long…. Not the best choice.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x734/0963bdd0_df61_4560_af2f_20cc34ab0870_62c190b142c6a5cac5e8be8 a1c8c405d09a4a0a5.jpeg

At 280255z the metar was issued. Local reports say at top of the hour local visibility dropped to 1 sm
and some 500ft local ceilings in the vicinity
.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x1792/585fa676_fa53_4185_b4c0_c0fb1bd33335_d8c0c801c3f482305946a44 92544994c3c55657e.png


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/828x1792/7a88cd57_3a25_4354_8c83_f81277aebb17_dcb8b72c358ff864dc90f9b d82c9dea970f7a6ed.png


He requested cancel IFR and proceed visually but Flight Aware suggest he was at 1000ft then down to 700ft (400ft AGL) over the airport and in the turn to join downwind left hand 27R. Was the 500’ ceilings in his way? And someone lost sight of the runway when they asked the tower to increase runway lighting intensity… which was already at 100% on what is medium intensity lighting, no approach lights in any runway.

A very difficult objective…. Unfortunately

[B2N2]

Interesting point too, however, I would have thought that if it was indeed so, they would have made their planned intention known to ATC much sooner. I tend to think that it was a last minute decision which left little time to execute a tricky low altitude manoeuvre (in reduced visibility) effectively.

I don’t know the wet performance runway numbers for a 1985 Lear 35A, however it’s clear that the shorter runway wasn’t sufficiently long. This wasn’t a last minute decision, you don’t do that. If you listen to the ATC they avoid the use of the term “circling” and somewhat catch the ATC controller off guard.
Circling approach is not authorized.
Its a mystery why they didn’t take runway 9 with at the most a couple of kts tailwind component as the wind was light and variable.
Rumor has it that their hangar is at the end of runway 27.
To answer a previous question, some charter companies will have both their pilots equally trained and both have a full “PIC” type rating just the left seat pilot is generally the more experienced. It is legal however to have only one fully type rated “PIC” pilot and a “SIC” type rated pilot which for simplicity’s sake is about half a type rating. There is quite a difference in training cost. Some companies hire a new pilot, pay for SIC training then after a year (or two) during recurrent training let the pilot ‘upgrade’ to a PIC type rating.
Do we like this pilot, do they get along with everyone, are they staying a couple of years or ready to bail after a couple hundred hours jet?
All those considerations.
Especially a Lear is not known to be a ‘starter jet’ but many evac companies use them for the larger door. Or I think that’s the reason. Old Lears are cheap too.
Their pay is generally on the low side for industry starters.

[TFE731]

Interesting point too, however, I would have thought that if it was indeed so, they would have made their planned intention known to ATC much sooner. I tend to think that it was a last minute decision which left little time to execute a tricky low altitude manoeuvre (in reduced visibility) effectively.

The problem with letting ATC know earlier is that he would have had to request a circle to land and that is not authorized at night. Therefore he waited until he was visual, cancelled IFR, and was then legally able to request a VFR circuit. As he was based at the field, my gut feeling is that he had done this many times in the past; however, on that night his luck ran out.

[B2N2]

I’m curious about the cockpit dynamics and gradient. Both more or less equally experienced and good buddies and alternating seats? Flew a lot together? First time pairing of a senior and junior pilot? Large differences in experience levels? What was the cockpit conversation like?

[Denflnt]

Local opinion is that the pilot decided to switch runways as the aircraft was based here, to save a couple of minutes taxiing time to his hanger. Unfortunately his approach height in positioning to the other runway was too low and he realised that too late, resulting in a stall as he attempted to gain height. It is better to arrive slightly later than not arrive at all, my instructor used to tell me. No high power lines involved, only street height lines lost.

The aircraft was based on the East side of the airport adjacent to 17/35, about 2/3rds the way down 17. The taxi would have been shorter using 17.

[BFSGrad]

Its a mystery why they didn’t take runway 9 with at the most a couple of kts tailwind component as the wind was light and variable.
At least a couple possible reasons:
1. Terrain to the SW of the airport would complicate a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L in the existing flight conditions.
2. Assuming the most experienced pilot was in the left seat and was PF, flying a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L would have required the FO to keep the airport in sight as PM. Circling to 27R allowed the left seater the best opportunity to keep the airport in sight.

[B2N2]

At least a couple possible reasons:
1. Terrain to the SW of the airport would complicate a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L in the existing flight conditions.
2. Assuming the most experienced pilot was in the left seat and was PF, flying a VFR pattern from 17 to 9L would have required the FO to keep the airport in sight as PM. Circling to 27R allowed the left seater the best opportunity to keep the airport in sight.

GPS 9L
I’m assuming a Lear 35A is approach category B

https://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/2112/05402R9L.PDF

If the weather is below minimums you go missed you don’t circle.

[global2express]

The Learjet 35A is category C.

[B2N2]

The Learjet 35A is category C.

Thanks…
Knowing that this flight shouldn’t have happened.
Not authorized to fly one approach and not authorized to circle at night.
The weather and visibility wasn’t such that they could cancel at 4-5 NM at 1500’ and maneuver for left base 9L.
For all intends and purposes unless you’re flying a small piston aircraft that airport is VFR-only for jets

[DIBO]

Residents were extremely lucky to escape this disaster happening in their front yard, only bringing down a tree and some utility lines (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8210111,-116.9391603,3a,75y,209.27h,72.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXiAZOk2RsQq8YxupuBBOhA!2e0!7i16384!8i819 2). Even the cars parked only meters away weren't completely scorched by the post-impact blaze.

Looking the other side of the street, the 1100 ft hill (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.8210111,-116.9391603,3a,60y,353.53h,89.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXiAZOk2RsQq8YxupuBBOhA!2e0!7i16384!8i819 2!5m1!1e4)that the pilot probably tried to evade

[oicur12.again]

I dont closely follow the private jet segment of aviation in the US but as a casual and occasional observer of various aviation websites it appears there are a surprising number of jets crashing.

Canadair in Tahoe, several Citations, several Lears, GIV, Falcon 50 and now this Lear just in the last year or two.

Some fundamentally stupid accidents happening.

My question, is there a trend here or is it simply a case of increased awarness as a result of social media and the proliferation of many online industry news sources?

[Hueymeister]

This Learjet 35 equipped with reverse buckets? Wet runway and limited stopping on the shorter of the two runways may have been why they circled.

[ThreeThreeMike]

I'll provide some information for our compatriots on the other side of the pond.

The aircraft was based at the accident airport, and the crew had used the same procedure of cancelling the IFR approach to RWY 17 and making a VFR circle to RWY 27R many times.

There was a scattered low ceiling in this instance, and the aircraft was less than 400' AGL as it crossed the airport and initiated the left turn to 27R. A large hill off the approach end of 27R required a tight turn to align with the runway. ADS-B suggests the airspeed as the turn progressed decayed below the stall speed. Doorbell camera video and a compact debris field indicates the aircraft spun in almost vertically.

There are reports that the FO was PF and on the radio. The crew had been paired together for many months and had flown quite a few hours in December. The aircraft was in Arizona earlier in the day, and the accident flight was a twenty minute jog from an airport in the Los Angeles area.

[Propellerhead]

Circling minima is there for a reason. The prohibition on circling at night is there for a reason. It’s one thing to cancel IFR in good viz and ceiling, at a sensible circuit height, but to do a “visual” circuit when the cloud base and possibly viz are below circling minima? And IF an aircraft were flying level at 400ft over a built up area this is illegal. Obviously this is all in response to the unconfirmed speculation from other posts at this point, so these are general comments only. As always we need to wait for the official report to see what learning can be taken from this accident.

[DIBO]

RWY 27R TPA 1588 (1200) RIGHT TFC SR-SS; TPA 1388 (1000) LEFT TFC SS-SR DUE TO 893 FT AGL MOUNTAIN 2.1 NM ENE OF ARPT. Am I missing something: why did ATC clear them for the requested VFR left pattern on 27R one hour after SS?
Given the light vrb winds, 09L the longest rwy (27R 706ft DTHR) with the least challenging IFR app., with similar track miles when coming from SNA, I wonder whether the pilots requested this 09L GPS approach? Or was it refused due to traffic?? (Miramar?)

[runway30]

The Captain's briefing before landing would be interesting given that what they planned to do wasn't authorised and the only plan B for a loss of visibility in the circuit (pattern) would be declare an emergency and climb to altitude with the consequent risk to IFR traffic above.

[172_driver]

GPS 9L is not authorized for Cat C and D.

[B2N2]

The crew had been paired together for many months and had flown quite a few hours in December.

The first nail in the coffin.

[377 Pete]

ADS-B data representation of Lear35 crash-

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1906x1029/n880z_1615fcdcf526870d190aa40b7004ef44c654206a.jpg
Medjet Crash in San Diego

[Denflnt]

Am I missing something: why did ATC clear them for the requested VFR left pattern on 27R one hour after SS?
Given the light vrb winds, 09L the longest rwy (27R 706ft DTHR) with the least challenging IFR app., with similar track miles when coming from SNA, I wonder whether the pilots requested this 09L GPS approach? Or was it refused due to traffic?? (Miramar?)

My understanding is the 9L approach wasn't authorized for that category aircraft. 17 was but too short for them to land so the plan all along was to fly approach to 17, cancel IFR in order to circle in VFR to 27R.

[maninbah]

Not only was this at night but the aircraft took off from KSEE at 0554am… on duty at 5am? Long day - over 14 hours and then to attempt this? “Get-home-itis”?

[FUMR]

Not only was this at night but the aircraft took off from KSEE at 0554am… on duty at 5am? Long day - over 14 hours and then to attempt this? “Get-home-itis”?

I don't know where you got those times from. According to FlightAware data they departed KSEE at 1354PST and were making their approach back around 1910PST.

[Propellerhead]

UTC vs PST

[FUMR]

Exactly. Maninbah is using a mixture of the two, UTC for the departure time and PST for the arrival time. So, in fact, their duty time would have been under 7 hours.

[His dudeness]

"The first nail in the coffin."

Why ?

[Propellerhead]

My worst mistakes have been when I’ve been flying with someone I got on really well with. Over familiarity can lead to complacency, and not wanting to pick up the other’s mistakes for fear of spoiling the nice atmosphere. And probably less effective briefings, and over confidence in the other pilot’s ability leading to poor monitoring.

[B2N2]

Propeller gave the answer.
You get along swimmingly, you’ve seen a handful of each other’s mistakes and you get a little more forgiving.
Human nature.

[Pugilistic Animus]

I agree with those who said that it was a stall, turning base to final.

[His dudeness]

You get along swimmingly, you’ve seen a handful of each other’s mistakes and you get a little more forgiving.

Well, its just one example, I know, but I fly with the same dude since 14 years. He still kicks my butt if I do something stupid.(which happens !)

Anyway, we might learn more from the CVR I hope. OTOH, what I have seen so far suggests that this approach was doomed from the moment they went VFR.

As Forrest Gump said: stupid is as stupid does...

[B2N2]

Well, its just one example, I know, but I fly with the same dude since 14 years. He still kicks my butt if I do something stupid.(which happens !)
..

Well this is a very good example as to why Human Factors are so interesting.
This accident is not limited to what happened that night.
Accidents can be years in the making.
Certain personalities that may be very different or very similar can work together very well or not at all.
Even working together very well they might amplify each other’s highs and lows or they may dampen them out.
Friendly banter or friendly competition can turn sour. Some people feel the need to make everything a competition or comparison of skill and the best way to deal with that is to “let them win”.
Case in my personal experience, I was teamed up with a pilot senior to me for a simulator event. We were required to demonstrate a landing with a 30kt crosswind component.
Upon completion of the “checking” part we had a little time left and the sim instructor asked if we wanted to do anything with that time so the other guy asked for a landing with 40kts.
He did one and and after mine was equally successful he asked for one at 50 kts.
After he wrestled that one to the ground I declined. Under different circumstances I would have tried even though I never would in real life but I wasn’t going to feed into his desire.
I let “him win”.

[air pig]

[QUOTE=B2N2;.
Especially a Lear is not known to be a ‘starter jet’ but many evac companies use them for the larger door. Or I think that’s the reason. [/QUOTE]

Indeed, the door is much wider and the configuration of the door as a clamshell facilitates loading far more easily as you have a ramp to attach to the medical base in the aircraft using the step as a base to stabilise the stretcher ramp on.

The other reason for Lear use is that it's cost-effective in terms of time and distance compared to say a King Air. In the UK, a Lear 35A will fly direct to the Canary Islands in about 4 hours, whereas a King Air will take at least double including a fuel stop and require an overnight stay and a far longer journey for the patient. Also, a Lear will climb and cruise a lot higher than a turboprop which will cut down the problems to the patients of mid level turbulence and the incidence of nausea and vomiting in particular when you have them strapped into a stretcher. Remember, the stretcher actually has little stretcher to cabin ceiling leeway for sitting a patient up.

I do wonder if there was an element of 'get homeitis' when in effect the weather was poor.? I worked for 11 years in the UK for Lear based A A companies both pilots were fully qualified PIC and the chief pilot at one always insisted that his pilots actually maintained the skills by hand flying the aircraft when appropriate. All legs on a job were flown with an alternating pilot handling, pilot monitoring.

Apart from the loss of the two pilots being lost, there were two nurses on board who also died. RiP colleagues, blue skies.