Emirates...is this for real!!???

[JanetFlight]

Quite interesting... :rolleyes:

https://onemileatatime.com/news/emirates-terrifying-boeing-777-flight-washington/?fbclid=IwAR1xJ0yWPz0PNFeFproDI7Ims2sXx259c9SBPQgomDcw-q0dUR-uPx4QYNs

[B2N2]

What is interesting is how incorrect this article is in its technical descriptions and it’s claims about pilot hiring and that is being polite.
Its actually full of rubbish.

[rudestuff]

Seems a bit unlikely to me. Firstly the crew would have to forget to set an initial stop altitude, secondly whatever WAS in the alt window is unlikely to have been 0000. What were the previous crew doing? What does it reset to on power down?
Thirdly, isn't it usual to only engage the AP after thrust reduction? In which case it would have been a normal hand flown departure until at least 1000'

What actually happened, what the crew THINK happened, and what they'll admit to: normally 3 different things...

[Wizofoz]

But the altitude was steadily increasing- I don't actually see any anomolly.

The fact that a different flight- probably at a different weight and with different requests from ATC proves exactley zero.

BS from a know-nothing IMHO.

[1201alarm]

An altitude increase from 75ft to only 175ft within a 11 second timeframe while in the same 11 second timeframe accelerating from 234kt to 262kt seems pretty unusual to me. It seems someone was not flying the bird with normal ~15° pitch up away from the ground.

It seems avherald also has the incident: http://avherald.com/h?article=4f24b2d7&opt=0

[SOPS]

Seems a bit unlikely to me. Firstly the crew would have to forget to set an initial stop altitude, secondly whatever WAS in the alt window is unlikely to have been 0000. What were the previous crew doing? What does it reset to on power down?
Thirdly, isn't it usual to only engage the AP after thrust reduction? In which case it would have been a normal hand flown departure until at least 1000'

What actually happened, what the crew THINK happened, and what they'll admit to: normally 3 different things...

Emirates discourages hand flying. AP engagement at 200 feet is normal.

[Fuel-Off]

Not quite SOPS, the mantra from Fleet is now to encourage hand flying when conditions allow. Latest OM-A amendment allows manual flying below 20,000', A/T still to remain engaged at all times. Very rarely have I seen the other lad/ladette engage the Autodriver at 200', unless the weather was absolutely pants outside.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

I think she set 0000 in the window instead of 4000. After take off she flew the flight directors instead of looking out the window and trusted the FD as it pitched down to the brown.

[TBSC]

I think she set 0000 in the window instead of 4000. After take off she flew the flight directors instead of looking out the window and trusted the FD as it pitched down to the brown.
But that would not explain a 4400 m long take-off run and reaching 216 kts on ground (as claimed by AVH). Something (CG or trim setting) prevented normal rotation?

[Fired600]

I don’t see how 4 pilots on the flight deck can all miss seeing 0000 on the MCP as opposed to 4000. There is more to this we don’t know yet.

[5star]

Pretty embarrassing to read this if you ask me…
Why did none of the 4 guys pick up ‘0000’ in the alt window on the MCP? SOPs, on several occasions, clearly not followed it seems, as the Alt window comes back a few times in the SOPs if I remember correctly…
Then followed by a PF who thought a pitch of 5degrees was going to get a Triple airborne…..Seriously, What the heck were they thinking…..

Embarrassing to read as an exEK driver... Any info on how ‘worked out’ these guys were? Seems to me so erratic that Fatigue might have played a role maybe? Naaah. Fatigue at EK… will never happen right?:suspect:

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Pretty embarrassing to read this if you ask me…
Why did none of the 4 guys pick up ‘0000’ in the alt window on the MCP? SOPs, on several occasions, clearly not followed it seems, as the Alt window comes back a few times in the SOPs if I remember correctly…
Then followed by a PF who thought a pitch of 5degrees was going to get a Triple airborne…..Seriously, What the heck were they thinking…..

Embarrassing to read as an exEK driver... Any info on how ‘worked out’ these guys were? Seems to me so erratic that Fatigue might have played a role maybe? Naaah. Fatigue at EK… will never happen right?:suspect:

that event is not a question of following sops anymore.
if an airplane passes the end of runway and is not making any substantial height, the pilots have to take action to change that no matter what sops are saying. But not at EK. The best trained pilots are just watching passing houses underneath and trusting technology, what a f..k..g joke is that. Bottom line is that’s what’s happen if you have sent the experience into redundancy and keep all those on the lower salary with the lower hours on the clock, drive them into total fatigue and stress them with rules of stupidity.
there is one thing clear at EK all those incidents are not only Pilot made, these things are forced by the entire organization and the way they treat employees.
when u are scared of the consequences of being a pilot, there will be a guarantee to make one.

[troff]

Why did none of the 4 guys pick up ‘the 0000’

One girl and three guys.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Why did none of the 4 guys pick up ‘the 0000’

One girl and three guys.

it does not matter

4 qualified pilots - that’s it - not gender or culture related
if they cannot ignore the flight director if shows in the wrong direction in that phase of flight they should question the pilot skills - but EK teaches only trust in FD and they where missing a crucial information - vertical speed and ALT versus airspeed

[Zakary]

I don’t understand is it EK NOPs to follow the bars during takeoff roll ??? We don’t where is the V1 and Rotate calls ?? I don’t think it is only a question of MCP altitude set to 00000.
tire speed limit was exceeded by double as by FR24 if it’s true

[Airmann]

Sorry but is the author of the original article simply inferring the incident based on FR24 data? Or has there been an official report filed or investigation opened? If the author is simply looking at FR24 data and then making up the claims it's incredibly reckless. That data is in no way official or accurate close to the ground. Is anyone on this thread an EK pilot that can confirm this actually happened?

[Zakary]

Sorry but is the author of the original article simply inferring the incident based on FR24 data? Or has there been an official report filed or investigation opened? If the author is simply looking at FR24 data and then making up the claims it's incredibly reckless. That data is in no way official or accurate close to the ground. Is anyone on this thread an EK pilot that can confirm this actually happened?

Ignore the first article no pitch down after lift off , but an incident did happen check avherald

[fatbus]

This is going to be very interesting. Let's see how PC EK is going to be based on Sex and nationality of the PF Captain. Might just save the other 3. But rest assured this was a big f..k up! How many more close calls before the big one ?

[Flyboy_SG]

All the 4 guys missed it.
Probably fatigue from a previous flight back from the east.

But the ATC gets to see the mcp target altitude !

[bobdxb]

I like the statement from Boeing's FCOM 1, saying:
Quote" Pilots must be aware that consistent use and reliance on automation levels III and IV throughout the flight regime will degrade basic flying skills. Therefore, pilots must continue to maintain proficiency by using all levels of automation on a regular basis." It looks like basics of flying any kind of airplane are not followed.
Also I believe, if pilots have face mask (required during Covid-19) while flying, it should be looked into for fatigue.

[White Knight]

Also I believe, if pilots have face mask (required during Covid-19) while flying, it should be looked into for fatigue.

They are not required... Except now in the sim!

[Willie Nelson]

My airline has a reasonably supportive view of manual flying and they back it up with a non punitive view to missed approaches and good culture to go with that but even flying short haul, I could just about count on one hand the amount of crew that have switched off the auto thrust on the A320 let alone the stories I hear from our long haul fleet where “it just never happens” is the constant refrain.

I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.

I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.

[fatbus]

Manual handling sim session should be lossly scripted and allowed to challenge the individual not make it Max cross winds /pass fail .

[Kennytheking]

I acknowledge that reliance on automation and attrition of flying skills may be an issue but the question we should be asking, is aviation safer or not? How many accidents have been caused by pilots gung-hoing it manually?

Manual flying accident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_6502)

An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.

[cosmiccomet]

I acknowledge that reliance on automation and attrition of flying skills may be an issue but the question we should be asking, is aviation safer or not? How many accidents have been caused by pilots gung-hoing it manually?

Manual flying accident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_6502)

An extreme example but I am sure I make my point.
The main problem is not the automation itself. The problem is limiting pilots about manual flying the aircraft, losing confidence in our flying skills. Moreover, when something goes wrong with the automation at low altitude instead of disconnecting, manual flying to a safe altitude/path, and then figure it out what happens....we can see pilots trying to solve the problem with the FCU or the MCU.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

The main problem is not the automation itself. The problem is limiting pilots about manual flying the aircraft, losing confidence in our flying skills. Moreover, when something goes wrong with the automation at low altitude instead of disconnecting, manual flying to a safe altitude/path, and then figure it out what happens....we can see pilots trying to solve the problem with the FCU or the MCU.

it’s not the fear of taking over manually, it’s about the consequences you face.
i have seen people who where sceared to takeover manually because the thought it’s going to be flagged in the QR-data and he(she) had to explain it later to the bosses, who are on the other hand are not interested in someone’s from the flight deck comment. If you have ever met a training manager or a chief pilot in that company, he would know he das made a judgment already based on the data without your input. U just go there to receive the blame, nothing else. U most cases they had the warning letter ready without hearing you.
As EK does not train people to make decisions, rather using automation only, yes people will be scared of taking automation out off the game and solve a problem old school with pure pilot skills.

[RodH]

The thought about automation being used too much is NOT a new idea.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.

[rowdy trousers]

Isn’t the rotate conducted by looking outside - as it has been since Wilbur and Orville ventured into the air, or is this no longer part of endorsement/transition training at EK?

[flareflyer]

The thought about automation being used too much is NOT a new idea.
Back in 1965 in Australia I was an F/O on the all new B727-100 and flew with some very experienced " old salts " some of whom started flying in the late 30's and some WW2 pilots.
One old fella used to make me hand fly the B727 all the way from take off to top of climb and from top of descent right until leaving the runway after landing.
He stated that if I did not keep up my hand flying skills I would soon lose them because of all of this new " automation ". His logic still applies to using Flight Directors as well as auto pilot.
Oh How right he was and I mostly followed his method even when I became a Capt. and also made my trainees do it quite often. I reckon it really kept my skills and scans honed!!!
It did really bother me to see pilots bunging the Auto Pilot in just after gear retraction and only taking it out on short final. Their hand flying skills were almost non existent !!!
This EK incident and so many others like it points to the need to do a lot more hands on flying.
It's as simple as pushing the auto pilot disconnect button and disconnecting the flight director as well and having a go.
It's very obvious that lot's more need to try it.


to be honest I don’t see what handling has to do with what happened.
Disconnecting the autopilot can improve your xchecks but if you have your brain disconnected I does mean nothing.
I use automation but as usual I know in advance what happens next.

[Flaperon777]

Isn’t the rotate conducted by looking outside - as it has been since Wilbur and Orville ventured into the air, or is this no longer part of endorsement/transition training at EK?
Which begs the question. When were Vspeeds actually ‘invented’ … 😉

[flyTheBigFatLady]

My airline has a reasonably supportive view of manual flying and they back it up with a non punitive view to missed approaches and good culture to go with that but even flying short haul, I could just about count on one hand the amount of crew that have switched off the auto thrust on the A320 let alone the stories I hear from our long haul fleet where “it just never happens” is the constant refrain.

I don’t know how we’re ever going to get there if we don’t start mandating some sort of hand flying regime……….happy to be challenged but this has been an issue that has been going on for years and the EK incident in questions shows that things are nowhere near getting better.

I’d be interested to hear what other airlines are doing to address these issues. Even with reasonably progressive policy we’re not there yet.

there are quite a few airlines where AP off means also A/T off - if u deceive to fly manual you don’t fly pseudo Manual and it has a positive effect. Crews are way more focused on the flying and reading instruments - so over all SA is way higher, plus crew coordination is way better in sharing tasks.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

to be honest I don’t see what handling has to do with what happened.
Disconnecting the autopilot can improve your xchecks but if you have your brain disconnected I does mean nothing.
I use automation but as usual I know in advance what happens next.

this is a quite very good attitude, nevertheless things are happing and if they do you need to know what your alternative options are.
mid your Automation is set wrong it won’t safe u. Last option is manual but it needs trained skills.

EK trains pilots to doubt their skills and having doubts in taking over manually is a good option and exactly there sits the problem.
if u in doubt over the actions in a emergency descent you will **** it up. Same applies to manual flying, if you in doubt over the correctness and being in doubt to throw a little SOP overboard (not about your skills, more over the consequences later in the office) you hesitate. Once in that situation you get blocked and things go worse every second.
experienced pilots don’t doubt in their handling, they do what’s required to stay safe, not always beautiful, but safe and at the end this is what counts. Stay safe. passing houses behind a runway is not safe. What’s is more important- the beautiful SOP or to achieve safety

[flareflyer]

this is a quite very good attitude, nevertheless things are happing and if they do you need to know what your alternative options are.
mid your Automation is set wrong it won’t safe u. Last option is manual but it needs trained skills.

EK trains pilots to doubt their skills and having doubts in taking over manually is a good option and exactly there sits the problem.
if u in doubt over the actions in a emergency descent you will **** it up. Same applies to manual flying, if you in doubt over the correctness and being in doubt to throw a little SOP overboard (not about your skills, more over the consequences later in the office) you hesitate. Once in that situation you get blocked and things go worse every second.
experienced pilots don’t doubt in their handling, they do what’s required to stay safe, not always beautiful, but safe and at the end this is what counts. Stay safe. passing houses behind a runway is not safe. What’s is more important- the beautiful SOP or to achieve safety

Probably I have been misunderstood. I did not mean to always use automation. I meant that such a kind of “mistake” has nothing to do with good handling but it has with airmanship and
common sense.

[FBW390]

I don't know EK procedures...Are we sure the 2 relief pilots were in the cockpit during flight preparation? The TO briefing? The TO itself?

[Murrenfan]

I don't know EK procedures...Are we sure the 2 relief pilots were in the cockpit during flight preparation? The TO briefing? The TO itself?
Hard to put the blame on the folks sitting in the back. 2AM departure, they were probably awake the whole day just to be ready for bed at 10000ft.

[FBW390]

I'm not here to put the blame, but to understand.
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?

[Oldaircrew]

I'm not here to put the blame, but to understand.
A third and a fourth pair of eyes would have helped a lot during flt preparation and the briefing on the SID. They could have spotted the very "wrong" 00000 in the MCP.
With only 2 in the cockpit, at 2 or 3 am as it was the case, a bit less easy...When you're on a flight with 3 or 4 pilots, if I'm relief, I sit in the middle, help my friends, and check too. You see many things from behind...
So, were they all in the cockpit?

I don’t think 0000 was set in the window. It seems 4000 was set after the FD was switched on, which left toga/alt on the PFD. There’s a video out there somewhere which shows how the mistake can be made.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Probably I have been misunderstood. I did not mean to always use automation. I meant that such a kind of “mistake” has nothing to do with good handling but it has with airmanship and
common sense.

i think I got your Part
still like to blame a
on the Organisation behind all off that, because handling skills are experience and training which both is not given to EK pilots
it simple does help to go throu a manual handling verbally in a 2 hr briefing before a sim and never being able to get the experience of the limits and behavior without having hands on.
if u ask a pilot to do a manual swing over between runways, and expect him to perform correctly the best practice is to do normal manual flow approaches on a regular basis.
with all those gathered skills situation which we talk about are not going to be a big deal at all. Something to think about in the aftermath, yes, to learn from it, yes, but they won’t be any danger

[fatbus]

3am departures are ops normal for EK . All 4 present for pre departure briefing , which includes " if anyone sees something they don't like , SPEAK UP! " don't go down the fatigue worm hole .

[desert witch]

Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light.

[Bindair Dundat]

Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light.
Yes it appears Emirates has a winning strategy here getting rid of all their high time, competent and confident expat pilots in favour of Emiratisation and also equity hires which grease the marketing and PR machine for Western routes reaching the woke masses. Nice job!

[5star]

Embarrassing… Even after seeing this short vid on the internet.
The altitude checks AND the FMA are checked AND read ALOUD during preflight In Emirates. ( the call is “toga toga, lnav vnav armed” mostly, definately NOT “toga alt” ). The call is one of the (many) good and (to me) vital things in EK’s procedures. I have a lot negative to say about EK BUT their’ SOPs are well thought out and they are how they are for a very good reason.
SOPs were not followed, and when the **** really hit the fan, it looks like they all had no real clue what to do….
All very embarrassing to say the least and a very very close call it seems to have been….

[flyTheBigFatLady]

Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light.

they had about 5 of these in the last 1,5 to 2 years, but as they stay in denial public never hears or read of it. There are some horrific stories out there, leaving one fact, this company is incredibly lucky.

[MissChief]

they had about 5 of these in the last 1,5 to 2 years, but as they stay in denial public never hears or read of it. There are some horrific stories out there, leaving one fact, this company is incredibly lucky.
I concur. And going back further, such as the Melbourne take-off near-disaster, one can see that their luck continues to hold.

[FBW390]

I concur. And going back further, such as the Melbourne take-off near-disaster, one can see that their luck continues to hold.
After these several near disasters, I think relying on luck and on hundreds of new cadets, with 0 airmanship and 0 experience, is an extremely bad idea. I'm afraid they're going strongly in the wrong direction, into the wall! With 300 passengers on board...Luck has no place in an airline...

FBW 390

[Mr Good Cat]

SOPs were not followed, and when the **** really hit the fan, it looks like they all had no real clue what to do….
All very embarrassing to say the least and a very very close call it seems to have been….

This is the bit I don't get. It's a good while since I flew out there, but the one thing you could be sure of in EK was absolute black and white adherence to SOPs. Especially after Melbourne. So if it's true that several SOPs were skipped or didn't work then things have obviously changed in that regard. Either that, or there's a lot more to the story that is yet to come out, something way outside the box.

[blind pew]

Besides the obvious errors why does the MCP not have a minimum default value of 1,000ft AGL programmed into the system when ground/flight switch is in ground mode?

[rudestuff]

Besides the obvious errors why does the MCP not have a minimum default value of 1,000ft AGL programmed into the system when ground/flight switch is in ground mode?
Because they didn't assume that anyone would ever fail to rotate and climb away, you know - flying the airplane?

[blind pew]

Rudeboy
fair point but in the quest to not pay for proper pilot training and standards « Automation is god « which they have sadly got wrong and continue to do so.
‘Even the Fokker 100 which had all time auto throttle and alpha protection didn’t as two of SR crews found out doing split ar@e visuals into Nice.
(open descent mode contrary to what the book stated). They were woken with the death rattle.

[SpamCanDriver]

Besides the obvious errors why does the MCP not have a minimum default value of 1,000ft AGL programmed into the system when ground/flight switch is in ground mode?

What happens when the airport altitude is 1000ft

[777JockeyIN]

One possible scenario... (https://youtu.be/Z1G1jhB-VV4)
I'd say none of the flight crew were staring at 0000ft


Right. I couldn't open the video. My guess is, they did set 4000 on the MCP.(its really hard for all the 4 to miss !) FMA was pitch mode was in ALT mode. They forgot to recycle the FDs and or Prev crew did not turn of the FDs. ALT mode on FMA is easy to be missed at that time. And after take off she blindly kept on following FD. This is possible right ?

[pilotguy1222]

I concur. And going back further, such as the Melbourne take-off near-disaster, one can see that their luck continues to hold.

I will go in between you and flyTBFL time-wise with 3 more ( USA, Russia, and France)

The main issue here is not automation at all. Automation is not followed during a takeoff roll OR during rotation. Pitching to a specified number of degrees(15°?), and then the automation “comes” to you. Clearly she never even got close this number.

As with several others, I am not surprised in the least.

[flareflyer]

I will go in between you and flyTBFL time-wise with 3 more ( USA, Russia, and France)

The main issue here is not automation at all. Automation is not followed during a takeoff roll OR during rotation. Pitching to a specified number of degrees(15°?), and then the automation “comes” to you. Clearly she never even got close this number.

As with several others, I am not surprised in the least.

As usual here there many Chuck Yeager of the keyboard……..

[fatbus]

It's just basic flying ! She f..ked up big time , almost caused a crash .

[777boyo]

It's just basic flying ! She f..ked up big time , almost caused a crash .

Maybe a touch of thread drift here, but I wonder how many of todays airline pilots under the age of 40 brought up on magenta lines and automation have even heard of, never mind studied, the excellent "Handling the Big Jets" book by D P Davies? It may have been written many years ago but most of it is still relevant today as a primer to flying large jet aircraft and a reference volume. It became my bible when I transitioned from Twin Otters to the 737-200, and I still referred to it many years later while flying much larger types.

[Jack D]

Right. I couldn't open the video. My guess is, they did set 4000 on the MCP.(its really hard for all the 4 to miss !) FMA was pitch mode was in ALT mode. They forgot to recycle the FDs and or Prev crew did not turn of the FDs. ALT mode on FMA is easy to be missed at that time. And after take off she blindly kept on following FD. This is possible right ?

This sounds about right to me ! At a 3am dep time sometimes things get missed. Flight path control (or lack of it) is the main factor however.
despite F/d indications, as none of us were actually there we can only speculate at the moment . This sort of thing is not exclusive to EK
I would suggest .

[haughtney1]

If 4000 or even 1000 was set in the MCP, and ALT was annunciated on the FMA, the application of TOGA prior to 80kts would have cleared the ALT FMA annunciation.
perhaps TOGA wasn't applied prior to 80kts?
I'm truly baffled as to what went wrong as by my count there are 5 separate occasions to identify and confirm the MCP setting, more than that every SID out of sh1tsville has a stop altitude of 4000'

[JG1]

I seem to remember there being a tech bulletin about the MCP alt setting changing "by itself", which was later attributed to static electricity discharge when someone touched the MCP.

Now this captain being a lady she's probably not wearing standard issue antistatic shoes.

[ManaAdaSystem]

What does it matter what was set at the MCP after the last flight? An aircraft may undergo maintenance between flights, and switches/values left in any position. This is what checklists and procedures are for.
Four pilots in the cockpit and they let this aircraft accelerate to more than 200 kts while still on ground, then nearly crashed it by not doing the most basic manouvre every pilot in the world does every time he or she takes to the sky.
What will be the next handling session in EK sims? Learning to rotate without the use of flight directors? Or installation of an auto rotate system?

[haughtney1]

What does it matter what was set at the MCP after the last flight? An aircraft may undergo maintenance between flights, and switches/values left in any position. This is what checklists and procedures are for.
Four pilots in the cockpit and they let this aircraft accelerate to more than 200 kts while still on ground, then nearly crashed it by not doing the most basic manouvre every pilot in the world does every time he or she takes to the sky.
What will be the next handling session in EK sims? Learning to rotate without the use of flight directors? Or installation of an auto rotate system?

My comment was related to the technical aspects, not the obvious Human Factors points, suffice to say I’m hardly surprised given the shoddy training on offer at times and reluctance by some to chop people who are clearly not up to a reasonable standard.
Getting rid of a Habibi for example, cant be good for ones career advancement, particularly after years of rectal pineapple insertion therapy at the hands of EK management.

[Marcellus Wallace]

Desert Witch "​​​​​​Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light."

Mind you there have been other incidents MEL, JNB, DME, JFK...etc. where the crew were non-habibi, non-cadet, experienced crew with lots of GA, ex-regional, major airline, flag carrier - the only common factor is that they were all human.

Let's all live and learn. I doubt EK training teaches at Vr "PUSH". I think it's still ROTATE.

[flareflyer]

Desert Witch "​​​​​​Yet their solution, is to hire more cadets. They advertised just today.
There was an experienced ex-cadet in this one.
And an experienced ex-cadet planted a wheels up 777 in Dubai Airport, not so long ago.
For a pilot to be a 777 FO in the US, he or she has already flown lots of General Aviation, lots of Regional, then more Regional as Captain, then lots of medium range as FO.
Compare the amount of exposure, to that of a Emirati cadet, with 3 landings a month, ILS to ILS fully automated.
Then add the company punitive culture.
And the best is, they stay on denial.
I am positive Emirates will have more of these.
I just hope they get as lucky as with all the other 'incidents', because imagine what could had happened with any of the few last ones.
And the ones that don't come to light."

Mind you there have been other incidents MEL, JNB, DME, JFK...etc. where the crew were non-habibi, non-cadet, experienced crew with lots of GA, ex-regional, major airline, flag carrier - the only common factor is that they were all human.

Let's all live and learn. I doubt EK training teaches at Vr "PUSH". I think it's still ROTATE.

I wish there was a “like” button!!!!
Finally a comment with some common sense and more importantly Professional Attitude!!!!!
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[Uplinker]

Isn’t the rotate conducted by looking outside - as it has been since Wilbur and Orville ventured into the air, or is this no longer part of endorsement/transition training at EK?

I have never been taught to gauge 15° pitch-up by looking out of the window of a medium/large jet, and it's a bit tricky to do so in low vis or at night, or when departing from a hill-top runway.

On large / long aircraft, one also has to be careful about tail strikes, so reference to the PFD pitch scale during rotation is not unreasonable. But you can look outside and still check PFD with quick glances.

[fatbus]

You have never been taught , there in lies the problem. There is the new wave of those who let the aircraft fly you ISO you fly the plane . Not saying it applies to you !

[Uplinker]

No, your comment doesn't apply to me. I was taught and trained to be an IFR pilot - with an instrument rating - so I look outside AND at the PFD when rotating, :)

And once the outside cues have gone, onto instruments, naturally.

[escapedATCO]

Depends on engineering or other staff coming and going who done walk arounds set up the rest area etc.

[ManaAdaSystem]

If this was a «pilot error», EK now belong in the same class as Korean of the past, Asiana, Turkish and PIA.

[pilotguy1222]

As usual here there many Chuck Yeager of the keyboard……..

Omg, you really got me good with that one!:rolleyes:

It is what most people, except yourself, would call knowledge and experience.

[flareflyer]

Omg, you really got me good with that one!:rolleyes:

It is what most people, except yourself, would call knowledge and experience.

To be honest if you have “knowledge and experience “ you would know that in our job the first thing is to “assess” based on data and not rumours!!!
Probably your meaning of experience is different from mine.

[Zakary]

Looks like a “Tenerife” kind of accident was avoided few days ago in DXB

[Capn Rex Havoc]

You mean this

https://avherald.com/h?article=4f30b5c8&opt=0

[iome]

Right guys, case closed.
From the horse's mouth, it was an "insignificant event"

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1861/screenshot_20220113_142149_3_e1b66bcfa11d1e639b80d345a2d9b5a 83c36a497.png

[Desertboki]

You mean this

https://avherald.com/h?article=4f30b5c8&opt=0

Yes Rex,
It happened little sister flydubai a number of weeks ago too.

https://youtu.be/SJGE7kRSbTU

[fatbus]

Holes are lining up !

[Emma Royds]

Not the smartest move to see one of our Fleet Tech Pilots comment on social media, where his name and position is visible to all and especially so when the company has asked for restraint when engaging in such activities.

[deja vu]

I concur. And going back further, such as the Melbourne take-off near-disaster, one can see that their luck continues to hold.

That Melbourne incident was preceded by another CX A340 tail strike in Auckland on departure for Hong Kong. The ex cadet captain chose to not return but continue to the VHHH for further 13 odd hours.

[3Greens]

That Melbourne incident was preceded by another CX A340 tail strike in Auckland on departure for Hong Kong. The ex cadet captain chose to not return but continue to the VHHH for further 13 odd hours.

does a tail strike on a 340 mean LAND ASAP?

[deja vu]

does a tail strike on a 340 mean LAND ASAP?
I would have thought so, don't you?

[777JockeyIN]

Tail strike on any aircraft means Land asap.
If it’s not on QRH, it’s basic airmanship. You don’t want to do Emergency descent.

[Ramones]

does a tail strike on a 340 mean LAND ASAP?
Are you a pilot or what?
If you ask question like this I am wondering...

[5star]

Are you a pilot or what?
If you ask question like this I am wondering...

Ramones,
It was a good and genuine question...
In some aircrafts it's a land asap Eg o the old 772 it wasn't always a return back. On the longer variants it was....
No idea about 340....

[BuzzBox]

In some aircrafts it's a land asap Eg o the old 772 it wasn't always a return back. On the longer variants it was....
No idea about 340....

The QRH for the 772 says: "Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport" for both annunciated (ie displayed on EICAS) and unannunciated tailstrikes.

The A330 QRH says: "LAND ASAP" in the event of a tailstrike. I can't imagine the A340 being any different.

[escapedATCO]

Right guys, case closed.
From the horse's mouth, it was an "insignificant event"

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1861/screenshot_20220113_142149_3_e1b66bcfa11d1e639b80d345a2d9b5a 83c36a497.png
So V1 and Vr where missed what would of happened if they lost an engine at any stage after this?

[Kennytheking]

So V1 and Vr where missed what would of happened if they lost an engine at any stage after this?

There is no evidence that V1 and Vr were missed. That is pure conjecture based on some seriously porous information. I think that is the point the poor fellow in the quoted exchange was making.

[escapedATCO]

There is no evidence that V1 and Vr were missed. That is pure conjecture based on some seriously porous information. I think that is the point the poor fellow in the quoted exchange was making.

I bow to your superior knowledge but one things for sure a 777 took off an incident happened it was at 200' on mode C going very fast over Deira and most of the info has come from within EK even the latest incident was being reported in India a few hours afterwards with a guy quoting the info was from EK.
So with your knowledge did they rotate at Vr?

[zero/zero]

There's a good podcast called AvTalk that's run by the guys at FR24.

The one where they discuss this incident makes it pretty clear that the aircraft rotated in a normal-ish place. The problem is that the publicly available data is sampled every 5 seconds. The data they store is much more detailed and includes other information such as what was set on the MCP etc.

Worth a listen

[5star]

Buzzbox,

There used to be a Boeing (or EK Bulletin) regarding this, and that for a very long time! Valid on the 772 (not LR/F) and 773 (not ER).

[QNH1013]

The QRH for the 772 says: "Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport" for both annunciated (ie displayed on EICAS) and unannunciated tailstrikes.

The A330 QRH says: "LAND ASAP" in the event of a tailstrike. I can't imagine the A340 being any different.


You are correct that it does on the -200 LR and -200 Freighters nowadays, but on the older 777-200's which were being referred to, is was not always land ASAP for a tail strike. It's been years since I've flown those Rolls Royce powered planes and they may have updated the QRH for them in line with current models.

[BuzzBox]

You are correct that it does on the -200 LR and -200 Freighters nowadays, but on the older 777-200's which were being referred to, is was not always land ASAP for a tail strike. It's been years since I've flown those Rolls Royce powered planes and they may have updated the QRH for them in line with current models.

I flew the 777-200 in the early 2000s for an Asian carrier and still have a copy of the QRH from that time. It clearly states: "Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport."

[Dropp the Pilot]

People may be chasing their tail(strikes) here:

In ancient times on the 777-300 if a trailstrike was reported by the cabin crew or tower but no EICAS had occurred, the crew could pressurize and continue. In that same era on a 777-200 the report from the tower or the cabin crew meant that the aircraft had to return. This was down to geometry - it is not possible to strike the tail without a warning in the 300 but it was in the 200.

This was later changed to be more conservative for both models.

[alexjcornwell]

Hi, I'm a Reuters reporter interested in speaking with pilots about this incident and the aborted take-off this month.
You can reach me on [email protected] or [email protected].

[iome]

There is no evidence that V1 and Vr were missed. That is pure conjecture based on some seriously porous information. I think that is the point the poor fellow in the quoted exchange was making.

"Poor fellow"? You mean EK 777 fleet technical pilot?
Is your nose really that brown?

His attempt to deny the event only confirmed that an event took place. In fact such event was significant enough to prompt the issue of a company notam to remind their crews to follow SOP.

We all know why SOPs are in place, so at some point during this flight the omission of SOP (or poor airmanship, SA, currency.. you name it) lead to an undesired aircraft state that needed to be addressed broadly to all 777 pilots.

Looking forward to read the investigation report, oh wait

[5star]

People may be chasing their tail(strikes) here:

In ancient times on the 777-300 if a trailstrike was reported by the cabin crew or tower but no EICAS had occurred, the crew could pressurize and continue. In that same era on a 777-200 the report from the tower or the cabin crew meant that the aircraft had to return. This was down to geometry - it is not possible to strike the tail without a warning in the 300 but it was in the 200.

This was later changed to be more conservative for both models.

Exactly as Dropp wrote.

Refer also to the latest 5G directive and the possible effects on the Tailskid system on the Tripple. If the caution is expected to be erroneous, one continues normal operation…Enough said.

[ThrustAssymComp]

Seriously yo? Most of QRH said “DO NOT PRESSURIZE THE AIRCRAFT, Caution! Continued pressurization of the airplane can cause further structural damage” unless you want to fly long haul at 10000 ft.

[Consol]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x1600/screenshot_20220118_090802_fcfa03ea3a5af56c27bbfb4e7ab22984a 48c509b.png

[Nick 1]

https://youtu.be/ytTdnjUr_Uk

[QNH1013]

I flew the 777-200 in the early 2000s for an Asian carrier and still have a copy of the QRH from that time. It clearly states: "Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport."

Thanks, indeed I stand corrected and the next post refreshed my memory of flying the -200 and -300 about tail strike with no eicas and being able to continue. But was changed later for commonality.

[Dropp the Pilot]

No matter how you slice it, the incompetence is breath-taking. Should we expect to hear more or has the EK machine succesfully buried this?

Good video, marred by the statement near the end that the crew should have returned because of the overspeed. That is non-sense.

[fatbus]

She was an EK poster ( video) queen . What do you think has happened to her ? Hint - nothing!

[Kennytheking]

She was an EK poster ( video) queen . What do you think has happened to her ? Hint - nothing!
Given the fact that she is no longer with us, what would you have preferred - execution?

[OnceBitten]

I don’t want to get technical but there’s a couple of errors that you could drive a truck through on that video above that stands out;
1/ Flight directors initially command 8 degrees nose up through the take off roll and command a pitch angle based on speed after rotate. E.g V2-V2+15. The flight directors are independent of MCP setting and they do not sit at zero during initial take off as alluded to.
2/ The Flight director pitch angle wouldn’t/ should not changed after take off until VNAV automatically engages at 400ft if armed or another mode was manually selected prior to this point.

I think there might have been a bit more that went on other than what this very basic video has concluded, Be fair to the crew and let the investigation run its course.

[BANANASBANANAS]

I don’t want to get technical but there’s a couple of errors that you could drive a truck through on that video above that stands out;
1/ Flight directors initially command 8 degrees nose up through the take off roll and command a pitch angle based on speed after rotate. E.g V2-V2+15. The flight directors are independent of MCP setting and they do not sit at zero during initial take off as alluded to.
2/ The Flight director pitch angle wouldn’t/ should not changed after take off until VNAV automatically engages at 400ft if armed or another mode was manually selected prior to this point.

I think there might have been a bit more that went on other than what this very basic video has concluded, Be fair to the crew and let the investigation run its course.

My understanding is that if the MCP Altitude Window showed 0000 when the F/Ds were first selected ON, then the active modes would not be TOGA TOGA (as is normal) but TOGA ALT (which is obviously not normal) assuming the aircraft elevation was within the altitude capture parameter, otherwise the default mode of V/S, which would be zero or TOGA. Either way, subsequently setting 4000 feet (SID Stop Altitude) into the MCP Altitude Window (even if it was set) would not change the active mode from ALT or V/S in this case. The F/D would therefore 'Direct" a pitch attitude to maintain level flight unless or until another Pitch Mode was selected as, clearly, TOGA was not the active Pitch mode.. It does beg the question though of why oh why did the PF just not rotate to something like 12-13 deg nose up (heavy aircraft) and just FLY THE AIRPLANE?

Hopefully, lessons learned and if crew have been fired, just be thankful that they (and all their pax and people they flew over at VERY low altitude) are still alive.

[deja vu]

No matter how you slice it, the incompetence is breath-taking. Should we expect to hear more or has the EK machine succesfully buried this?

Good video, marred by the statement near the end that the crew should have returned because of the overspeed. That is non-sense.
Well a return would have been appropriate, even just for a change of underwear. Whatever happened to basic flying?

[OnceBitten]

It’s a good point you raise Bananas about maybe getting TOGA/ALT with 0000 in the MCP once airborne but the flight director still would have commanded an initial 8 degree pitch during rotation so that should have been normal at Vr and through to getting airborne. It would be an interesting one for the sim as I can’t find any reference to contradict what I posted previously except for the possibility of what you raise. Keep discovering they say!

[BANANASBANANAS]

It’s a good point you raise Bananas about maybe getting TOGA/ALT with 0000 in the MCP once airborne but the flight director still would have commanded an initial 8 degree pitch during rotation so that should have been normal at Vr and through to getting airborne. It would be an interesting one for the sim as I can’t find any reference to contradict what I posted previously except for the possibility of what you raise. Keep discovering they say!

Not sure about that. My information (as in, feedback from someone who tried just that in the sim) is that if 0000 is set in the MCP Altitude Window before the F/Ds are first selected ON and provided the actual elevation shown on the PFD baro altimeter was within the capture parameter then the F/D Flight Mode Annunciators would show TOGA/ALT when first selected ON. Subsequently setting 4000 in the MCP Altitude Window would not change anything and there would be no pitch up command shown on the F/D pitch bar at any stage prior to a Mode Change being made.

[casablanca]

At QR we always did a takeoff review just before takeoff…..TOGA TOGA LNAV VNAV ARMED…4000* feet , heading 300 flaps 5 or something like that…(I was pretty sure that was actually adopted from Emirates as we had so many managers from there
seems like that would have caught this error, so wondering if Emirates no longer practices this.
after takeoff they would have been probably 85 tons over max landing weight which complicates the decision to return also coupled with the punitive management in middle east where you know you will likely be fired for any embarrassment on company

[awair]

Emirates removed the take-off review.

Many continued to complete this internally.

[SpamCanDriver]

Not sure about that. My information (as in, feedback from someone who tried just that in the sim) is that if 0000 is set in the MCP Altitude Window before the F/Ds are first selected ON and provided the actual elevation shown on the PFD baro altimeter was within the capture parameter then the F/D Flight Mode Annunciators would show TOGA/ALT when first selected ON. Subsequently setting 4000 in the MCP Altitude Window would not change anything and there would be no pitch up command shown on the F/D pitch bar at any stage prior to a Mode Change being made.

This is correct

Have trIed it myself

[5star]

She was an EK poster ( video) queen . What do you think has happened to her ? Hint - nothing!

Fatbus, you have to be kidding us...
Someone who pulls off a stunt like this, especially in the L seat has no place in any cockpit. She is still in service?

Sadly the #take-off-review was removed from EK procedures many moons ago. Getting in line with Boeing procedures it was called…:ugh:

[glofish]

Someone who pulls off a stunt like this, especially in the L seat has no place in any cockpit.
I agree 100%. No matter what any indication in the cockpit shows, if the buildings in the window get bigger, you shove up the levers and pull the yoke. Stop bar and 15degs sound about right. I guess even the proverbial monkey in the cockpit would try some evasive action.
Having been out of cockpits lately a question: Upon realisation of a unusual mode/indication, would a push of the TOGA switch resolve the problem?

[5star]

I agree 100%. No matter what any indication in the cockpit shows, if the buildings in the window get bigger, you shove up the levers and pull the yoke. Stop bar and 15degs sound about right. I guess even the proverbial monkey in the cockpit would try some evasive action.
Having been out of cockpits lately a question: Upon realisation of a unusual mode/indication, would a push of the TOGA switch resolve the problem?

With my knowledge, pls correct if I'm wrong, as soon as 'no load on wheels' ie after liftoff, and you press any Toga switch, toga logic will engage in Toga Toga and lnav and vnav will be removed. Now, if 0 still stands in the ALT window, i believe it will start an unrestricted climb. Pls correct if I'm wrong.

[glofish]

That's what i suspect. Anyway, an unrestricted climb is better than kissing concrete ....

[Dingleberry Handpump]

That's what i suspect. Anyway, an unrestricted climb is better than kissing concrete ....
Been a while since my 777 days, but flaps out of up or GS capture are the arming conditions for TOGA if I recall. So, yes, TOGA would’ve been available.

[Nick 1]

I can understand the mistake or some glitch with the MCP but , flying straight and level for miles at few feet from ground with no action with four pilots in the cockpit , that scares me.

[pfvspnf]

What is nationality of female commandante ?

[145qrh]

Misogyny and racism is only 6 words ,,,well done pfvspng, quite a feat

[5star]

pfvpnf. Should be published in the FAA/GCAA final report.

From the horses mouth…
Is it true that all crew were silently removed from payroll? Just connecting some dots after reading an article in GN which reported ‘someone also tampered with the cvr’….
Cannot believe anyone would be so naive in the flightdeck to think one could get away with this kind of stunt…

[fatbus]

Scared people do strange things , scared EK pilots do some very strange things !

[SOPS]

pfvpnf. Should be published in the FAA/GCAA final report.

From the horses mouth…
Is it true that all crew were silently removed from payroll? Just connecting some dots after reading an article in GN which reported ‘someone also tampered with the cvr’….
Cannot believe anyone would be so naive in the flightdeck to think one could get away with this kind of stunt…

Actually the article in the GN says the CVR was overwritten. That would be correct, the aircraft had flown to Washington and back to Dubai. Any conversation that happened on take off at Dubai would certainly have been overwritten. Nobody tampered with the CVR.

[Oldaircrew]

Scared people do strange things , scared EK pilots do some very strange things !
They have cause to be scared. Chap who made the video highlighting the MCP trap got a final written warning. I don’t think that’s indicative of a healthy safety culture.

[Oldaircrew]

And now he’s just been forced to resign.

[SOPS]

And now he’s just been forced to resign.

Is this for real?!!!

[awair]

Interestingly, in the BA sim (contract booking, so I’m not 100% sure of config), we could not get ALT to capture with 0 set.
Take-off resulted in an open climb.
His original video was a useful service for flight safety. They should have given him a Najm!

So the fault could be:
1. Something Boeing fixed
2. Something Boeing broke, or
3. Something not correctly replicated in the Sim.

This is a trap that was not covered in training, can occur despite following the SOPs, and would have been trapped had the “Take-off Review” not been removed.

[Dropp the Pilot]

If an aircraft is being "flown" by a "pilot" sufficiently obtuse to think it's just fine to fly a 777 at 2 degrees of pitch after takeoff no "trap" on earth will save you.

The only fix is for the "pilot" to be banned from the flightdeck.

[awair]

If an aircraft is being "flown" by a "pilot" sufficiently obtuse to think it's just fine to fly a 777 at 2 degrees of pitch after takeoff no "trap" on earth will save you.

The only fix is for the "pilot" to be banned from the flightdeck.

Except that pitch for level flight at 350 tons would be closer to 8 degrees (with no forward visibility).

[5star]

Awair. Next time you are on the line in the Tripple or in the sim, set your airport elevation (in DXB about 0 feet) in the alt window and put your FDs on and watch the magic…I believe Boeing now came out with a notice regarding this behavior of the APFD system.
They sacked the guy who made the video? Harsh, but you should know by now that, in EK, they will kick your xss badly if you go online with this kind of content….

As for the skipper who produced this shxt late December, there is indeed no other possible fix than to ban from flying. Very very scary stuff and what a close call it was. Not representive of the many skilled aviators I have met during my time at EK…

[777JockeyIN]

Except that pitch for level flight at 350 tons would be closer to 8 degrees (with no forward visibility).

Really ? Where did you get that info from ?

[Uplinker]

Clearly EK training and SOPs need to be urgently reviewed. If their current training produces a Captain who has passed all their Command course and recurrent SIMs, yet will continue accelerating along the asphalt, way beyond Vrotate, or fly level immediately after take-off simply because the FDs are not showing a pitch-up, then something has gone seriously wrong in the training and checking department.

I personally find the way of capturing the G/S from above in Airbus FBW too fiddly, (and prone to error in the heat of the moment), and if it happens to me I prefer to just take out the A/P, ignore the FD pitch, and fly it down onto the G/S manually.
On this EK flight, were the crew heads-down trying to work out what they had programmed wrong rather than saying; "Right forget the electronics, let's fly this plane UPWARDS and sort it out later" ?!

Back to basics is required methinks.
.

[Oldaircrew]

I personally find the way of capturing the G/S from above in Airbus FBW too fiddly, (and prone to error in the heat of the moment), and if it happens to me I prefer to just take out the A/P, ignore the FD pitch, and fly it down onto the G/S manually.
On this EK flight, were the crew heads-down trying to work out what they had programmed wrong rather than saying; "Right forget the electronics, let's fly this plane UPWARDS and sort it out later" ?!

Back to basics is required methinks.
.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a reasonable solution but in EK you’re not allowed to do that. A go around is required.

[flyTheBigFatLady]

I personally find the way of capturing the G/S from above in Airbus FBW too fiddly, (and prone to error in the heat of the moment), and if it happens to me I prefer to just take out the A/P, ignore the FD pitch, and fly it down onto the G/S manually.
On this EK flight, were the crew heads-down trying to work out what they had programmed wrong rather than saying; "Right forget the electronics, let's fly this plane UPWARDS and sort it out later" ?!

Back to basics is required methinks.
.

Sounds like a reasonable solution but in EK you’re not allowed to do that. A go around is required.[/QUOTE]

Even worse - for ignoring the FD during an approach, even thou you don’t bust any limits and you had a safe and nice landing - you will be honored with a warning letter.

[Uplinker]

Blimey.....
.