Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!

[Soggy]

I was speaking to a fellow pilot at our club the other week. He is training at a centre down south (I mention no names) and says that Ryan Air and Easy Jet came in looking for pilots whilst he was there. So its happening. One of our flying instructors also got an application form sent from BA to apply for a job there too!!
A word of caution though. Neither EZ Jet or Ryan air will pay for your type rating and you have to fork out yourself!! How much I hear you ask? £20,000. But.... after that you can start on £30K salary as first officer. Just a rumour and I cannot confirm but there you go.

Soggy:p :p

[Baldie Man]

MCC and now type rating. Good job they don't cost too much. :rolleyes:

BM.

[scroggs]

Do you suppose that's why they've been advertising on this site for some months now?;)

[Canada Goose]

I just spent ages writing a rant about my contempt at expecting us to pay for type ratings and it's vanished into thin air !!!! Arggggggggghhh

but it basically went along the lines of .....

20K is small change for these companies, never mind the fact they can write if off against taxes as training expenses. However, 20K is a lot to the average Joe Blow, who has already just forked out for an fATPL. With the all the expenses of living in the UK today, paying back 20K would take a long time on top of mortgage/rent, food, bills, other loans ..

The more people cough this fee up, the airlines will twig they can get away with expecting us to pay for it all the time !! Liek I say, it's small potatoes to them !!

It stinks !!! :mad:

C.G. ...... quick post before it disappears into the ether again ......

[Broken Wings]

I think you'll find that the ONLY way to get into EJ is via the online application form and IF you have a type rating they want some hours to go with it. If I'm wrong please somebody (preferably an EJ employee) let me/us know.

[Tinker]

Hopefully this is an indication that the situation is begining to improve for newly qualified pilots.
I don't wish to dispute the post but i'm supprised with the comment about forking out for the initial type rating.
I have been under the impression in the past that the situation described infered that the airline paid for the type rating initialy, and the person in question paid the airline back over a period of time out of their salary.
Hopefully this still is the case, otherwise we are getting into territory where the applicant needs enough spare cash after initial trainning to not only pay for submission of CV's, interviews and sim rides but to cover the cost of a type rating, just to be able to apply for a job.
That would mean that many people would need in the region of 60-70k instead of the 40-50k already needed to go from zero to RHS.
Anyone care to correct me?

[Hap Hazard]

Soggy, very surprised to hear that Easy would be expecting you to pay for your type rating, Ryan Air....well expect anything from them which is another reason why personally, and I do say personally, I would never want to work for that lot, so before you all jump on my back we are all entitled to our opinions.
Easy jet come across as a very good quality airline, but I am going off the tracks a bit.
Canada Goose, quite agree, this type of job offer, (if it is true) stinks, but the sad thing is there are many out there who will pay up and play into the employers hands, believe me 20k on 30k per year still takes some paying back, but when you are trying to get a foot in the door anything seems attractive.
I believe Virgin Blue make you pay for the type rating as well, however they pay you back over a period for the rating, someone from down under will be able to confirm this?
At least they are remotely fair about it.
I do hope for all our sakes that there is an upturn in the market, however to be blunt all those wannabes really do need to be very shrewed when taking the plunge, especially with the timing.
You can only go for so long throwing good money after good money into a very big hole.
We always hear of the guy/girl who got an interview or job, but we hear less of the poor sods who have been looking in some cases for years........

[wallup]

Sadly, it does appear that Easy will be looking for people to pay for their own type ratings.

Ryan's have already started the ball rolling with their "£18000 for a 737-200 TR and a job for six months" scheme, and believe me plenty of people are applying for that, 40 have been taken on this year and another 80 will be next year, and they are inundated with applications.

Eazy now want 500 hours on type if you have a 737TR, so buying your own won't help there, but they are likely to set up their own "cadetship" for nnon TR people - a friend of mine works at Aviance in LGW and an EZY Captain told him to expect to pay about £14000 for their cadetship (goodbye CTC?).

Rumours are that JMC will be looking at a similar scheme too.

If people are prepared to pay, the airlines will carry on with this.

[haggard]

It is all in line with the way the wannabe market is going. Fly for free, pay them to fly, pay for rating, pay for application.......the list goes on and on and will go on and on if we accept it.

Once you are in you'll probably find you have to pay for your uniform, pay for your hotel room on a stopover, buy your own drink in the cruise, collect your wages every fortnight from the lady at the cash office. :D

If I want to get screwed I go to a lady of the night not an airline.

haggard the horrible.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

EZY currently pay for yout type rating and bond you for it for 3 years - same as Go and most other airlines. The bond in Go has been 12k for a 737 course.

Nobody from EZY would be attending a flying school looking to recruit - its simply not done that way.

WWW

[Broken Wings]

I'm not in favour of a pilot paying for his airline type rating but have no gripes with bonding, a sensible device to protect the employer. However, I've been unemployed for 8 months with a JAA fATPL and 5000 hours (including 2400 ME Jet time) and looking for a step onto the civilian ladder. As I live off my savings for me personally it could make financial sense to pay for my TR as once employed I'm not living off savings (-£2K/month) and I'm being paid (+£3K/month). These are not easy times and so compromises may have to be made to get a job. Nobody said life was fair!

[wallup]

Easy are going to be doing it very differently soon, trust me.

[Mister Geezer]

Yes...Ryanair are recruiting. If you are willing to spare circa £20K then that is the biggest hurdle overcome. For low hours applicants you could expect to wait 2 months from IRT to Interview and Sim Check. The plus side is that you will be worked hard and unfreezing your ATPL will not be a problem and they seem to be willing to offer commands in 2-3 years which is also another bonus.

However you are parting with your cash and your are not even secured a job with the company, that is a payment for the type rating course. You are also starting on a salary that is greatly reduced, which does not help if you had taken out a loan for £20K for the course. I have a friend who applied to them and was treated very badly by their HR department while they cancelled interviews and type rating courses at very short notice and this lasted over a year. Maybe I am being far too cynical but I would rather instruct that work for Ryanair!

MG

[HARRY GREYHOUND]

Well I have not had any luck at all with both of these airlines.Applied to Ryan 3 times now and on each occasion have not had a confirmation e mail,the money has not even been deducted from my credit card yet.I even faxed the number to query this and still they haven't responded.EJ have had 3 applications,nothing from them either! I am 737 rated with 1500 hours on type.Having read this thread I now know why Ihave been unsuccessful,I am 39 with wife and mortgage to support and will not work for free! So all you young wanabees who probably don't have a wife ,kids and mortgage ,work for free then when you find yourself out of work at 40 with commitments, see how you feel then! Time to change profession for me I think.:mad:

[kwaiyai]

I am personally fed up with these Airlines asking U to pay for your own TR on a so called promise of a job, and not just EZY and RYAN Air either. You have all paid a hell of alot to get into an employable position so these companies can pay the last hurdle in my opinion.
Hope you all get a job not paying for your TR, I'm off to another country. EZY KMA :p :p :p

[Blue Bay]

Anyone any idea of command requirements at EZY and FR?
Thank You

[Jaxx]

I am from abroad so not very familiar with UK regulations. But, isn't there some kind of in the middle (government or union) body, that can prevent airlines from taking advantage of their future pilots??

The way it is going (taking certain rumours in this thread for true), a positive turn in the market for airline pilots' vacancies doesn't look like more jobs are going to help pilots from not having to pay for an increasing number of extra's. (e.g. TR's and low commitments from airlines). Effectively increasing riscs and insecurities only more... (this still is a "rumour network" but, plse correct me if I am wrong about the above mentioned)

Jaxx

[Soggy]

The training establishment concerned was Oxford Aviation so whether the individual I spoke to was just full of it or not is open to question.
I think Easy Jet Do do these sort of things and I also am aware that applying to companies like Ryan Air actually costs you money for some reason!!!???
Personally I agree with all of you. Its scandalous!!
I know that some operate a bond scheme and I suppose thats fair enough.
Thething is, it cannot be financially viable to go through all the ATPL training which will costs approx £40K, THEN have to pay another £20K for a TR THEN pay to apply, THEN get about £20K a year after all that....if you're lucky.

I'm off to start my own airline!! Its cheaper!!
That'll teach 'em!!!

[JB007]

I'm glad everyone is in agreement that the system stinks.

But I can see why airlines are doing it with the present economic climate in this industry and training budgets is one of the biggest budgets in any airline.

It doesn't suprise me the low-cost operators have started operating this scheme, i'm actually suprised they didn't start it before now. It clearly works well for Astraeus and other charter airlines who's busy period is between the months of May and October and need alot more crew numbers only for this period.

At this moment in time, I think it's purely market driven. Airlines need to cut costs and they are able to do so by asking in-experianced pilots to pay for their rating and get away with paying them very little when they are on-line. But will this continue if/when the so called pilot shortage appears and there is alot more choice ?

Also, with all the companies mentioned here, we are talking about jet types. I was always told to aim high but maybe all of us low-houred guys should lower our standards and expectations to a more realistic level until the pilot market comes out of the present low. There are still alot of turbo-prop operators around the UK (flybe / B.A.C.E / Logan Air / bmi regional). Even the 146 is a realistic type to aim for. You will probably be bonded but so what!, you'll have a permanent contract and be earning the same as those guy's who have just paid out 20K for a type rating and run the threat of getting laid off at the end of the summer...

Just a thought....

[Dr.Evil 2002]

This whole concept of paying for your TR is a scandal. I personally find it insulting that companies such as Ryan are asking, no making you pay firstly to LOOK at your CV then to pay for your Interview/selection then once again, pay for your sim and then if your extremely lucky you get to pay for a 737-200 TR which even then there is no guarantee of a job and we all know that a 737-200 TR has no value whatsoever in todays market. Im sorry but as long as we continue giving in to these companies the more and more they will take advantage of us. YES we all want that illusive job, but I dont think ANYONE should be coughing up another 20K after already investing 40-50K for a fATPL. They need pilots, we all know that, and if we ALL dont give in to them they will have to change their policies on low timers but im afraid to say there are enough folks out there willing/able/stupid enough to pay up. No wonder EZY and Ryan's profits are so good.:mad:

[redsnail]

Virgin Blue does ask you to stump up $A25K to pay for your training if you don't have a 737 type rating. It is only after an offer of employment has been made. I believe the money is refunded to you over 2 years. ( $15K the first year, $10K the second year) I haven't heard any one complain about VB once they are there. Quite a few of my friends are there and they love it.

[Flypuppy]

If it comes to the point of most airlines demanding that new pilots pay for a type rating before they are employed, I guess the loyalty to that compay is going to be pretty much non-existant.

I would regard the type rating as "mine". I wouldn't think twice about leaving that company and finding greener pastures. I wouldnt think anything of any moral requirement to stay. The company wouldnt be able to hold me to any bond either.

I am just guessing but I would think that a certain Irish based low cost carrier may find a tidal wave of people leaving the company as soon as the opprtunity arises.

If a company is working to such tight financial limits that they cant afford to train their staff, do you really want to work for such a poorly run business? Would you go to a restuarant where you are expected to cook your own food, do your own washing up and pay for the priveledge?

As prospective aircrew we have NO representation anywhere. BALPA seem to be too busy looking after the BA pension fund issue to consider other companies never mind those of us at the bottom of the food chain. IPA simply doesnt have enough clout, and MP's couldnt give a stuff about a small number of politically insignificant people.

This whole buy your own type rating makes bonding look positively angelic in comparison

[Mister Geezer]

I fully agree with Flypuppy on his post. I just hope the market picks up soon so that Ryanair will be caught with their trousers down. No one will then want to pay for a 737 rating when the others open up their recruitment and as previous mentioned if the boat is being rocked hard then those new joiners who have no bond will jump and quite right too.

Ryanair have been having it far too easy and it is only a matter of time before their HR department falls back to earth and it will be with a hard thump as well.

It is a scandal, and I am comforted to see that I am not the only person who feels that way!

MG

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If EZy were at OATS it would have been in connection with setting up some kind of scheme to take in low time graduates - they wouldn't have just been trawling for recruits. The only way they can comply with their own recruiting policy and ensure compliance with Employment Law is through their online application form.

The only people who have made people pay for type ratings is Ryanair with the cadets they took out of the Netherlands. Those boys knew exactly what they were getting into. They walked out of college on day one into a 737-800 with a prospect of a command in 4years. Guaranteed 3% pay rise a year, rosters fixed a year in advance and share options each year. They did well.

The £50 application fee was a bit much to swallow but I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way of stopping a flood of CVs from no hopers as Ryanair see it.

People are sometimes a little too quick to condemn FRA here. They are a very good company, short time to command, new aircraft, stable rosters and flipping great wodges of cash. I know of First Officers at Stansted who are making £50,000 a year and love the company.

Some expouse the view that the company culture there is great because the bosses are bosses the workers are workers you pitch up, fly, go home. No non-hierarchical management structures, no orange cuddles.

Its a point.

WWW

[Son Of Piltdown]

>>Easy are going to be doing it very differently soon, trust me. <<

Would you like to qualify that remark wallup?

Sounds interesting !

[Jaxx]

In this thread the words "when the industry will pick up" are mentioned quite often. Like wise for "we'll get them LCC's back once it's our turn".

**Is it realistic to say that there will be an airline pilot shortage some time in the future???? **

Where I come from there are always unemployed wannebe airline pilots, in good times, and even more in bad times. Is the brittish industry such a different one then, or am I mistaking?

Jaxx

[Broken Wings]

HG - Don't understand it. TR + 1500 hours and no contact from EJ? "39 with wife and mortgage to support and will not work for free!" doesn't get entered onto the application so have you tried emailing the recruitment office? ([email protected]) . At the recent roadshow at EM they seemed a very reasonable bunch of people and I can't believe that they don't want your experience. Best of luck.

[Soggy]

All comments made I agree with more or less, by the way I heard it is more in the region of approx £250 to apply for RyanAir!

Anyway, I am saving up for a turbo prop to fly London Docklands to Amsterdam under the name of Soggy Airlines!! It will end up cheaper than paying nigh on £100K in the end for hours plus ratings just to work for some blood sucker!!
:p :p :p

Sorry Stelios (I know hes gone!).

[pjdj777]

Sorry WWW, the Nederlands guys are not the only ones who are paying for their type ratings at Ryan, next time you're at GECAT have a look at the number of guys having interviews there for Ryan, and ask them what the deal is.

I believe it's £18000 for a -200 type rating, I don't know what sort of deal they get after that, some have said 6 months on the aircraft, others 50 sectors, and others full time positions.

I've also heard that Easy are looking at running their own cadetships, possibly in the new year.

Times are changing.

[Flypuppy]

WWW,

Your post about Ryanair, troubles me greatly.

I can only assume one of two things:

1. You are looking to get out of GOEasy and are using your position as Moderator to try and engender some sort of "Brownie Points" with a potential new employer.

or

2. Ryanair as an advertiser have applied pressure to the management of this bulletin board to reduce the amount of bad publicity that is generated/reveled here.

In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing.

I said on another thread I would not post to this forum again, I recieved a few e-mails from people asking me not to go. Sadly I can no longer justify posting to this forum while you remain a moderator, WWW.

[whisperbrick]

got to agree with you flypuppy: I've met a few ryan pilots and they were all totally and utterly knackered and pi$%ed off.One youngish captain looked about 45 (he was actually 32).

It's a fine line isn't it:getting loadsa cash but too tired on your days off to enjoy or spend it. No thanks i'll take less cash and have a life.

As for easy there's no point about gripping about not getting a look in: two of my ex-colleagues applied (13'000 hours TRE/IRE)and they showed absolutely no interest so I guess they are still deluged.The information I have got from people who have been to the roadshows is:don't waste your time:a twenty minute lecture with them blowing sunshine at you, followed by a Q+A session.The only possible advantage is registering your name as having turned up:Although as they state they won't hold it against you if you turn up.

JB007:bmi regional is no longer a TP operator and hasn,t been for some time:Its all EMB135/45 now

regards

[Mister Geezer]

WWW

Your earlier argument is presented on a coin however you have only exposed the brighter side of that coin. Those days of £50K and living the good life is alas not reality for Ryanair recruits now. Circa £20K for a 737 type rating which just pays for your course and some hours on type but no job! Coupled to that the 50% reduced salary that you will start on when you start, it paints a picture which is a sharp contrast to the rosy picture that we saw for new joiners at Ryanair, just a couple of years ago.

I know someone who joined Ryanair in what I would term the 'golden days'. No investment was needed for any training and you were offered a secure job as soon as soon your TR course was completed and you started off on a full salary. That was a package that used to be very hard to beat and you knew you were going to fly 900hrs a year! I suspect your friends joined Ryanair during these 'golden days' and are still reaping the rewards!

MG

[tailscrape]

Ryanair flying new aircraft? Yep, some are. The majority are still old f?cking 30 year old heaps of sh?t that are not worth spending £20k for a rating on.

Paying directly for a rating is appalling. And these guys are on crap terms now too in FR. It disgusts me, and I get p/ssed off when I hear friends of mine doing this. One said to me he would work for them for free the other day. Go on then, wreck it for everyone else.

M o'L is a multimillionaire with a huge farm in Ireland. He doesn't want to share his wealth with pilots. He hates them.

[Baldie Man]

Have to say I am in general agreement with Flypuppy here.

WWW seems to be taking a pro-Ryanair stance here that is not in line with the majority of wannabes. I feel, as aluded by Flypuppy that this can only be a result of him now having the coveted jet job and now looking at the larger picture through the eyes of someone who has the needs of a seasoned airline pilot at heart and not as someone with a brand new licence and a cheeky grin.
Someone looking for their first job has a rather different agenda to someone who is in the game and no matter how good the company appears to be WWW you surely cannot justify the expense of type rating to get in the door? Please say you don't.

WWW, I don't know where you got this idea of only Dutch guys paying for their type ratings because a friend of mines brother has recently joined the outfit and stumped up the cash for his. And no he is not Dutch he is self sponsored (OATS) and I belive the school were almost instrumental in him getting the "job".

I would say that WWW needs to take a step back and remember how he felt being an eager wannabe with little cash and what he valued at that stage as most important. Most of us could simply not afford a type rating on top of £50k+ and I know for a fact that you couldn't either WWW because I recall your numerous posts on how you got where you are by spending as little money as you possibly could. Remember those days?

BM.

[AMEX]

We never cease reading threads about pilots trying to improve their condititions following a strong dregradation in the past few years but then again, who's fault is it ?
Dumb pilots who agree to those conditions or even worse. Indeed all too often pilots have created those conditions themselves.
Things such as
"Will fly for free"
"Will type rate myself"
"Will not fly for free but for twice less than the others"
"will sell my mum to get a job (note: House has been sold to fund training,... if you had one that is;)) are just one of the tricks pilots use to beat each other at the game of landing a job.
Problem is that in suggesting or going ahead with that kind of stuff, it isn't a job we are going to get but more like a very uncertain and difficult future.
If we don't have respect for ourselves, how can we expect it to from our employer ?
Respect is something you diserve not something you buy at the local market.

Flypuppy, I like your post mate ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A good healthy debate then!

pjdj - I haven't spoken to or heard about Ryans activities at Gecat re. people having to pay for ratings without any gaurantee of a job. Shame if that is happening. The Netherlands guys as I outlined were on a fair enough deal in my book. Face it. BA cadets spend 5 years paying for their type rating when they join. Whats the year 1 BA CEP pay again? £24,000 and you've got to live near London...

Flypuppy - do you think Dr Evil (Mr O' Leary) has picked up the phone to PPRuNe HQ and leant on us? My points regards Ryanair are merely personal opinion - offered in the interests of BALANCE on this forum. Thats a perfectly reasonable action for a MODERATOR.

Tailscrape - the great majority of Ryanairs fleet new aircraft. The 200's are dwindling and will all be gone in 2 years. The 200 drivers I know of like the jet, have been flying them or years and will be sad to see them go. I'd like a go myself - no glass and some good old fashioned Jet scream to wake the neighbours with.

There are plenty of airlines out there whose average fleet age is older than Ryanairs and getting worse.

Mister Geezer - quite right, the big money days were a few years ago for starters at Ryan. Things, as people have outlined, have declined since then. Same as other airlines, BA are trying to/have scraped the FSS pension for new joiners, many of the charter airlines have torn up pilot agreements just as BMI is doing next month. Virgin have fired and re-hired (effectively) some pilots who have lost seniority position. Easy managed to make their crews a misery with a new roster system etc. Meanwhile the guys on the line at EGSS got their annual 3% pay rise, watched their share options inflate further, knew exactly what days and when they were flying all summer and welcomed a couple of new 737-800's and new routes to their base. Oh and never had a sleepless night worrying about their jobs or promotion prospects.

Thats a whole heck of a lot better than life for pilots in - say - BA.


And finally, Flypuppy, "In either case I dont regard this as acceptable. If facts cannot be discussed without a moderator applying company/advertiser spin to threads there really is little point in this forum existing."

I am discussing facts re fleet, pay, rostering and condition for line pilots as I know them to be in FRA out of Stansted. I am not being pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary, I've never the met the man and he might be really nice. Who knows. You can flounce off in a huff threatening never to post here again like you have done in the past if all you can come up with is an accusation about PPRuNe mods being influenced by advertising spin or posting for personal advancement. I'm just too busy flying 900hrs a year to be spending sunny bank holiday Mondays in front of a PC trying to justify myself to your good self.

The only people who knock FRA on this board are people who have never worked there and, I suspect, do not have any friends who do.

WWW

[Flypuppy]

Ok then www, you want to talk about FACTS do you? Well maybe you had better get a few of them sorted out before you post.

Fact Times have changed since you were on this side of the cockpit door.

Fact Ryan do charge for a type rating in a deal with GECAT. Cost GBP15000 for a 737-200 type rating.

Fact There is NO guarantee of a position with Ryan at the end of the Type Rating course

Fact A new F/O with less than 1500 hours who has been through the scheme will be paid GBP11k plus flight pay plus expenses. There is no way that a new f/o will earn GBP50k in the first year.

Fact Ryan operate 22 737-200's out of a fleet of 44, and will not begin to phase it out for another 2 years. (the number of -200's may now be 21, but even so the -800 hardly makes up a "great majority of ryan's fleet".)

These are facts that I have from a very reliable source (a friend that works for the company), but for the sake of being certain I contacted Ryanair's HQ just to be absolutely sure.

I have not in any of my posts in this thread "been pointlessly emotive about Michael O Leary".

I once respected and appreciated your views, but following your various intemperate lambastings of people on this forum, that is long gone. It also seems to me that you don't really appreciate what it is like for wannabe's now.

As far as I am aware I have never flounced anywhere in my life, although I am willing to be corrected on that one. I also do not "go off in a huff", unless there is a very good reason for it.

I'm just too busy flying 900hrs a year to be spending sunny bank holiday Mondays in front of a PC trying to justify myself to your good self.

You just did... :rolleyes:

[Canada Goose]

Well, well, this topic has certainly generated a lot of discussion which has gotten pretty heated at times.

It would certainly appear from those who have posted, an overwhelming majority of us wannabes (and between jobs ATPL'ers) that paying for ones TR is totally contemptable and out of the question.

As if this disturbing trend of expecting 'wannabes' to pay for their own TR were not bad enough, I find it disheartening to read of people like Harry Greyhound, with 1500+ hours and a TR and they are not even getting a look in with the likes of EJ. He's not the only one I've read about in the last few weeks, there are quite a few others who claim to have thousands of hours, including jet experience, who have been unemployed for anywhere between 6-11 months !!! I mean what the hell is going on here !! I tell you what, since this topic regarding the trend of airlines paying for their TR's first appeared I've been having a serious rethink of whether I actually want to even persue this career option anymore. I had fully come to terms with the fact I'd have to spend a fair wad of cashing converting my ICAO CPL Multi IFR to a JAA fATPL, not to mention dis-associatiting myself with my family and friends for at least 12 months to write the 14 exams. Given some of the odds are already stacking against me [35, kid and working professional wife in a highly specialised field who can't just up sticks and follow me up and down the country so I can follow my dream of being a commercial/airline pilot], I've got to seriously take stock and question whether I want to spend, or should I say 'waste' (?) my time and hard earned cash getting an fATPL. It was something which I had already viewed as being risky but being someone who not averse to a bit of risk and given that it was something I really wanted I decided it was a least worth a try. I don't object to paying for my own fATPL licence but after having does that to then engage an industry where one is expected to pay for their type ratings, well I'm simply not having it. I'm not prepared to spend the huge amounts of extra cash to get a TR !!! which could be like throwing good money after bad with no job guarantees !! The sad fact is ..... and it's for this reason I'm having this serious rethink, is there will always be those out there who will pay up and fuel the airlines perversion to screw over wannabes ............

Again, there are probably those out there, probably those in their early twenties who may be prepared to do this and live in squalor (cos let's face it - that's all they'll be able to aford after being paid peanuts, the bulk of which will be going straight back out to pay off all those hefty loans). Fact is, I'm not !! Yes, I really want to be a commercial pilot, but I've got my limitations. The kind of money now required to get some of these airlines to even look at you could bring me and my family a major boost in quality of life. With absolutely no guarantees of being able to pull anything off at the end of it all, except more vast spending, I'm now left thinking ..... I'm not sure it's worth it anymore !!!!

Right. Glad that's off my chest ..........
:(

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flypuppy, thanks for going to the trouble of contacting FRA HQ etc. to obtain the facts.

Type ratings with no gauranteed job that you have to pay for is a pretty sore deal which I do not condone. I guess though that if people are out there willing to do it you can't blame Ryanair for doing it. As a shareholder I think its a great idea.

Fingers crossed it doesn't become and industry standard.

I think we have established that its a crappy deal. Hopefully though people may now also see that as a pilot Ryanair can be a good career. A point often missed admist all the Ryanair Bashing that one finds on these forums.

I would also point out that Sir Michael Bishop in the last major recession of the early 90's was also in the business of offering 737 type rating courses which came attached to some vague promises that graduates would be assessed for entry at British Midland.

Quite a few paid for the rating at British Midlands training centre. Very few were taken on. As I remember it the cost was something like £15,000.

So Ryanair didn't invent this practice.

They copied Sir Michael.

Which of course is legal, above board and caveat emptor.

WWW

[Baldie Man]

Wee Weasley Welshman,
As a shareholder I think its a great idea.
As a moderator your input to this thread cannot be neutral so I do not buy the idea that you merely put forward the views you do in the interest of a "balanced" debate.

The above quote says alot and your motives appear quite clear.

BM.

[Splat]

BM

Seconded

S

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm not actually a share holder. I was expressing an alternate viewpoint.

One of the jobs I do here is to stir up and create interesting threads. Else it gets a little turgid at times. This is a cracking thread in which people have been moved to compose well researched postings covering a range of issues.

Hopefully any inexperienced Wannabe who reads this thread will have gained a useful insight into an important issue.

If I have to have a few people cross with me as a result. So be it.

I also pop up in other guises and have been known to have a go at myself at times ;)

Its all smoke and mirrors mate.

Its also a very hot forum :)

Cheers

WWW

[Baldie Man]

No hidden agenda whatsoever then?? ;)

[Hap Hazard]

Canada Goose, pity there were not more level headed and thinking wannabes like you around.
The Airline industry is not what I thought it would be like and is going through some pretty tough times.
Please dont get me wrong, I love my job, but I am finding out that I am having to make some pretty big family sacrifices to stay in work.
My advice to you is, if you still want to become a pilot, dont spend all your hard earned cash at the moment, watch the market very carefully and see what direction it moves in and when there are positive signs of improvement go for it.
There are lots people out there banging on about how the market is picking up....oh really, where?
Being around for your family growing up is the most important thing to you and your wife, not sitting in some hotel bar, it sounds great, but it aint.
Having done the airline bit now, if I could find a job flying small stuff that allows me to be with my family and pay the bills I would be off.
If she who must be obeyed is earning a good wage, what about instructing or something?
By the sounds of it you are far to bright for this forum!
To all those other wannabe's trying to find a job, I know how you feel as I have been there myself, but even when times were good, it was never easy...here we go........ :rolleyes:

[Canada Goose]

Hap Hazard,

Thanks for your implicit understanding and moral support. You've pretty much summed up what my strategy would be; that of waiting to see which way the market turns. Of course, there's always that nagging issue at the back of my mind which is, if things pick up swiftly and I already have the main prerequiste, i.e. fATPL, then I'm in an eligible position to hopefully be picked up. However, if I wait and see if the market picks up, then I'm already behind the curve as I'd have to do all the exams and conversions. For it to be effective, I'd probably have to give up my 'day job', as opposed to my former thinking, which was studying and flying outside of 'work hours'. I would hate to be in a position that I'm sure some 'modular' people have unfortunately found themselves in whereby they have studied and trained at great personal cost for several years during the 'boom' years leading up to 11 months ago only to graduate just as the market shifts rapidly the other way.

HH, you've also touched on another interesting point, that regarding instructing or other small job. It's true 'she who must be obeyed' would be bringing home a fair old slice of bacon, and all things being equal I would readily consider such options. However, having already resigned myself to the fact I'd be taking a pay cut if I ever made the leap to an airline, there is a limit to how low I can go as Mrs Goose likes a pretty special nest, not to mention other fine things (read expensive) in life and although she can hold her own, she'll also be expecting Mr Goose to bring home a significant contribution for the nest, and after all, 'she must be obeyed' ;) . That notwithstanding, I had meant to mention on my previous posts that for me, becoming Captain on a long haul 747 is not the 'be all and end all'. Far from it, if I can balance having a reasonably stable family life and earn enough to pay my way at home, with enough left over to save in my nest egg, then I'll be a happy camper. If this means working for an airtaxi or turbo prop regional then so be it, fine by me. All things being equal, if I could get a flying job that would allow me to stay local and have a family, then they could expect from me, years and years of faithful service. Hap Hazard, interstingly you also think along the same lines, given that you're already in an airline flying job and yet would be prepared to make a move that many would consider retrogressive !

Another point I had wanted to mention on my previous posts was that I don't have any real objection to airlines 'bonding' a pilot for a TR so long as other terms and conditions were reasonable. Very similar in my field to employers paying for relocation costs, which if you leave under your own volition within a specified time period, usually before the end of your first two years then you have to pay back a pro-rated amount. Seems fair to me !

Anyway, time to go and find a few more twigs for my nest ......

Cheers, C.G.
;)

[SPEEDBIRD5FP]

ok how about this,
if your some one who payed for the TR with the ryans, and subsequently found him self unemployed after 6 months, post a reply here.
OR if your someone who payed for it, tell us your thoughts, did you regret it, or was it one of the best decisions of your life?

I think youll find out of the last 32 cadets, 31 have a permanent position with ryan.
unfortunatly, what they are doing is simply good business sense.
Time are very hard right now for any one to get a job. if the ryans get someone to pay for a TR, theyd be mad not to take them, absolutly no risk to the company, but another potential pilot who will be happy to work damn hard. also if this guy or gal only has 200hrs or what ever, they would be mad to give that person a longtem contract. I am not pro or against ryanair, just tyring to take a balanced view.
Speedbird

A very experienced captain once said to me, never turn down an opportunity in aviation, you never know when youll get the next one.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Ah who cares ... people get so fired up about all this, but it's really only the one company who charge for ratings anyway.

If you really really must be a 737 jockey with only 200 hours to your name then as far as I'm concerned you buys the rating and you takes your chance. If you get the job then it's a massive break and more power to you, if you don't, then tough sh!t and it serves you right for trying to run before you can walk.

Those of you who DON'T want to buy the rating, then don't get all fired up about it, just carry on doing what 95% of the rest of airline pilots did ... instruct your way to your first thousand hours, wait patiently for your first break in air taxi or turboprop. get your command, do that for another year or two and then start sending CVs to the big jet boys. You'll still get there.

It's kind of like the way people invest in the sharemarket ... some people are drawn to buying the short term, high risk, high reward shares (FATPL with 737 rating), some of them hit the jackpot but the risk of coming up empty handed is that much greater. Others take a long term view and invest in blue chip institutions (working your way through GA and turboprops) where the initial rewards are low but the chances of it all going pear shaped are a bit less.

The wannabe world will not come to an end like some of you seem to think, just because one particularly sharp Irish operator starts taking advantage of the current downturn to charge for type ratings. They brought that policy in pretty much overnight post Sep 11th and they can and will change it just as quickly if the employment scene turns around.

[Broken Wings]

Cracking debate and occasionally deep into the light buffet stage so I'm just going to push the nose forward a little and introduce another reason why I personally might have to pay for my own Type Rating (against all instincts I have to say) .....

Applied to Emirates online and recieved a corrupt email but it said "applicant does not meet requirements for FO". Emirates minimum requirements at the moment are;

A minimum of 2500 hours total flying time
A minimum of 1000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft experience
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be 48 years or younger
Experience commensurate with age.

At the moment I don't have an ICAO ATPL but a frozen JAA-FCL ATPL (JAA-FCL CPL/IR + ATPL exams). However on the application form you have to state your licence number so I entered my CPL/IR one > = Rejected.

The problem is that under the old CAA licence I would now have a CAA ATPL because there was an hours and exam requirement. Now under JAA-FCL its hours - exams and a multi-pilot rating (ATPL skills test). I surpass the hours requirements and I have the exams but the catch 22 (unless I pay for a Type Rating) is that I can't get an ATPL until I get a job but I can't apply for some jobs unless I have an ATPL!

I am trying to get a friend on the inside to help with my predicament but the last resort will be to pay for a type rating on the cheapest multi-pilot aircraft that I can find; or wait until the market picks up and eat up my savings in the meantime. What would you do?

[Flypuppy]

Luke,

You make some good points, but the problem, as I understand it, is that other airlines (EZY included) are watching with interest to see how Ryanairs scheme goes. It is kind of reminisent of the mid '80s when British Midland first introduced bonding in the UK, that has now become standard throughout the industry.

Why do I get fired up about this? Well, I will have invested the thick end of GBP60,000 and over a year of my life into getting a CPL/IR (fATPL/MCC). My own preference is to try and get a job working for a TP operator in a 2 crew environment driving bandits/shed/atr42/F50 or anything anyone will give me and then graduate onwards and upwards.

Instructing in the UK (and also here in the Benelux countries) is, from what I have heard from people that are currently instructing, becoming a much more difficult option. Fewer people are training for a PPL since the introduction of the JAR PPL. Add to that the current oversupply of instructors and the low pay (GBP500 per month basic plus GBP5-10 per flying hour) means for some of us older guys that isnt an option.

Air taxi work is a non starter, JAR rules require a pilot to have >700 hours before you can do that. (once I have completed my IR I will only have 500hrs).

OK, so imagine life a couple of years down the road, Ryanair's scheme has been a great success for the shareholders and all the airlines are now requiring pilots to pay for a type rating. So even after doing the apprenticeship in the traditional manner, you still get shafted for at least GBP15k. I guess thats why I get hot under the collar about it all.

I dont understand this notion that it is "good business sense" to buy a Type Rating. If a business makes an investment it requires a Return On Investment, normally in the region of 2% above base rate. This would equate to a 6% ROI at todays rate. So on an investment of GBP75,000 (CPL/IR plus TR) that would mean an income of GBP79,500 in the first year. That is never going to happen, and that I can accept. Becoming a pilot is not a good business decision, there is too much emotional content in that decision. That companies cynically take advantage of our enthusiasm and bank accounts is a pretty low thing to do.

Brock Landers, you are right of cours, BALPA SHOULD be involved in trying to stop airlines charging for TR's, but as a union they seem to be pretty ineffectual in general, and all but useless for low houred guys, the employment conference being the exception to that.

www

First you tell us "As a shareholder I think its a great idea."
and then you say "I'm not actually a share holder."
Make up your fecking mind, then we can figure out what your intentions and motives are.

One of the jobs I do here is to stir up and create interesting threads.
So what is this forum? Entertainment or information? I can tell you I am not so much cross with you as deeply disappointed. Maybe for you as 737 sky-god it is fun to tweak our tails and watch us get upset, but the situation that wannabe's face now is very different to what you had to face.

I no longer have any respect for you or your viewpoints, Andy. If any inexperienced wannabe's have bothered to trawl this far through this thread, I certainly hope they have learned that you arent quite as well informed about what is happening in the aviation market as you would like people to think you are.

[Mister Geezer]

Broken Wings

At the moment you will be hard pushed to get an interview with EK unless you have around 5000hrs or more and some heavy metal time in your logbook. It is the most competitive airline to get into and quite right too, since it is a superb company. Don't lose heart since they will be needing drivers for years to come if their expansion plans come to fruition!

MG

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=612369#post612369

LOVE2FLY on the first post of the page link above over on Reporting Points makes the point I was trying to express. There is a noticeable juxtaposition between what Ryanair pilots think about working for Ryanair and what other pilots think about working for Ryanair.

Its good for Wannabes to see that.

My sentiment has always been that I deplore airline run speculative type ratings that are self sponsored. Unfortunately in each recession someone does it.

My vote goes with Lukes philosophy above.

WWW

[ElNino]

I suggest Flypuppy that you do not have a jet job due to the type of immaturity you displayed in your response to WWW. A response to a viewpoint you disagree with involving threatening in a huff to never post again hardly strikes me as the balanced individual wanted on the flight deck. What would happen if you disagreed with your captains view on something? Would a differing opinion on some operation issue lead to your refusal to co-operate?

As usual the Ryan bashers are short on fact and long on rumours read here. I suppose rumours perpetuate rumours. Flypuppy claims to have contacted FR HQ for his "facts." This is rather unlikely due: a) his facts being rather wrong and b) chances of FR telling you these facts are a tad remote.

Find someone who actually flies for FR, both recent recruit or less recent and you will certainly not find opinions on FR similar to those usually stated on this forum.

[Flypuppy]

El Ninio,

I donot have a jet job yet because I do not have an IR yet. I am waiting until there is a more promising hiring market before investing the not inconsiderable sums required for that.

I did, in fact, contact Ryanair HQ. Their telephone number is 00 353 1 8121212. I spoke to a very friendly gentleman in recruitment, who answered all my questions very politely. So if you can point out which facts are rather wrong, I am sure everyone would benefit from your knowledge.

[PPRuNe Towers]

I think it should be pointed out that it is entirely possible that those FR pilots WWW knows are in their first aviation job.

If so, they have never worked anywhere else. I mix with those who have worked elsewhere first and their views are very different. No matter how enthusiastic you are you have to consider life 5 or more years into working for such a company.

Think back 5 years - wherever you work or study you most likely feel completely differently about that place now. Many rely on you to make an unthinking, enthusiastic, brain free decisions in selecting an aviation career.

If you have the chance to discuss a career with anyone in a given company, simple human nature would be for you to go to the new joiner - the person closest to you in experience and aspiration.

This may be understandable but is stupid beyond belief after the money you've laid out on becoming employable. The new joiner/first time airline pilot is the very last person on earth you should talk to. Speak instead to the people who've been there 3 or more years to get the true flavour.

After all - don't you find yourself smiling when you hear someone brand new at where you study or work raving on about how fanstastic it all is??? The truth is somewhere between the views of the insanely enthusiastic new starter and the grizzled veteran. Someone there for around 3 years is about right.

Sadly, the truth is also that many of you would prefer not to find out.

[Broken Wings]

Mister Geezer I have 5000 hours including 400+ command on VC10 and 2300+ heavy metal total; so I'm still hopeful if I can get the ATPL problem sorted.

I think we all agree on this thread that having to buy your own type rating once you've got your fATPL is wrong but the problem is it's a sellers market and it is very cut throat to get that illusive first job.

As all wannabes are not in a union there is no one to represent them so it's impossible to boycott airlines that are simply applying business sense in the current climate. Do we all sit on the fence and wait for a food surplus or do we fight for the scraps?

Before anyone says "it's OK for you but you have stacks of hours" I have not flown professionally for nearly 4 years after an accident induced medical problem, I have a restricted Class 1 and have been unemployed for a year.

[scroggs]

People, there's no need for all this bad feeling, is there? At least, not at each other; we are all on the same side here!

Unfortunately, you have to play the hand you're dealt. The market is most certainly skewed in favour of the buyer at the moment, and Ryanair have taken advantage of that fact. According to rumour (I've yet to see a definitive statement from the company), EZ are about to go the same way. I find these tactics somewhat cynical, but I doubt that we have the political or economic power to change them. However, it's not all bad.

As I understand it, the Ryanair deal is that you pay £15,000 for your type conversion and line training as a package. While there is no guarantee of a job at the end of the line training, I've yet to hear of a rejection - perhaps someone can confirm that? The pay for the first year isn't great, but I'm not sure I agree with the seemingly-accepted principle that a 200-hour fATPL should be able to walk into a £40k pa job. In my opinion, you don't have the experience to justify that level of reward. Remember, the vast majority of airline pilots have had a far longer apprenticeship before they made the dizzy heights of a jet seat, and historically there's a bloody good reason for that! I'm sure many of you will disagree with that, but I comment with 25 years and 10,000 hours of heavy experience behind me.

However, these jobs are available (at least to some), whether I like it or not! Not only that, but the prospects for a Ryanair or EZ pilot are extremely good. It's not unreasonable that you could have a £70k command within 5-6 years of joining the company as a 200-hour fATPL. I reckon that's not a bad deal!! As an aside, notwithstanding my aforementioned-25 years professional flying, I earn 'only' £43k with Virgin. But, and this is important to me, I have lots of time off, I go to nice places, and I have a life outside my job.

My last point is that Ryan do not bond you, which is the method by which most airlines 'recover' the training costs. I assume the EZ deal will be similar, if it comes to pass. That means that you have the option to leave at any point after your line training with, presumably, a month's notice. That gives you the upper hand when the market starts to improve - which it will.

In summary, if you really must have a 737 to fly as soon as you've graduated, then the Ryan deal is the only game in town. If you're prepared to work your way through the system, you'll have a greater choice of employer later on. Think carefully before you reject the deal on principle.

[Billy M]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that a low hour fATPL pilot can no longer go down this route anyway? Thier web site says that they only take B737 type rated pilots, with 300 hours on type.

A friend of mine who works there enquired, on my behalf, about whether or not such a pilot could still pay for the type rating (it's a great deal easier for him than it is for me to contact the main man at the recruitment department!!). They confirmed that for the time being they are not taking on such pilots.

And before I get a roasting for actually considering paying them £15000 for a job, I was enquiring merely to find out if it was a possibility or not. But as Scroggs says, maybe it shouldn't be ruled out as an option too quickly. Especially given there are very few other options about at the moment for a low houred guy to get a flying job - as Flypuppy says, Tp, instructing and air taxi are all very difficult to get into at the moment.

And for the record, the above mentioned friend does work hard at Ryanair, but there are many positives to be found from the job. He seems pretty happy.

Cheers and good luck all.
Billy M

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

PPT - good point, I speak from the very focussed position of first jet FO. Headline salary (mortgage) and time to command (bigger mortgage) are our priorities ;) and Ryan FO's are therefore happy bunnies. When I have your hours then my views might well be different :)

This is a cracking thread.

Having dug around I have been told that only one person who took the Ryan offer of self type rating was not offered a subsequent job. She, is now working in another 737 airline on the South coast, and, is chuffed.

So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up. Unlike some people felt in the early 90's. Nonethless I sympathise with Flypuppys sentiment of "oh my God, surely they don't expect another £15k from me to get a job".

Britannia are recruiting cadets, EZY apparently are looking at it, BA have decided to take on their cadets-on-ice in a flying role, BACE were advertising for FO's at Manch last week, Emerald are re-hiring crews on TP's and Virgin on 747's. Its picking up folks - great news for all.

WWW

[Tinker]

As I understand it, the Ryanair deal is that you pay £15,000 for your type conversion and line training as a package. While there is no guarantee of a job at the end of the line training, I've yet to hear of a rejection - perhaps someone can confirm that? The pay for the first year isn't great, but I'm not sure I agree with the seemingly-accepted principle that a 200-hour fATPL should be able to walk into a £40k pa job.



So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up. Unlike some people felt in the early 90's. Nonethless I sympathise with Flypuppys sentiment of "oh my God, surely they don't expect another £15k from me to get a job".

I'm sure these comments are of little comfort to those wannabe pilots who have recently stretched themselves to the limit inorder to obtain their fATPL.

I've yet to hear of a rejection or So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up.

is not going to convince a bank manager to extend a loan by another 15 grand.

I've never met a wannabe yet who expects to walk into a 40k a year job, most would accept a job that gives them a bit of twin time, if it was on a turbo prop or jet that would be a bonus but as far as wages go they would be happy with a salary that paid the bills.

In my previous 'life' I trained as a mechanical fitter turner then joined a company who added a speciality to my trade, the cost...not a bean! My wages were well below the guys I was working with, until qualified, but it was a mutually beneficial arrangement as, like many before me I would become an asset to the company.

Why should we subsidise a company to become a beneficial member of the work force? Answer, they have us by the nuts and are so unscrupulous they are willing to take the p155.

ps..So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up.

I could name one guy who was told by one of the above companys he would have a job if he got an appropriate type rating. He got himself a type rating and guess what, no job!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Tinker - well nobody has been stitched up. They got their rating and got their job - apart from one who got a job anyway because its the type rating of choice anyway at the moment.

Contrast with the early 90's airline offer bearing a remarkable similarity.

WWW

[foghorn]

Good thread this, I've been watching it develop with great interest, as I too have been considering all options available to me at this point in time: finish the instructor rating I started / B737 TR / Shed TR / ATP academy etc.

With my first IR renewal under my belt (thankfully with minimum fuss and cash outlay), I'm looking at my next steps. I've heard more stories about people doing self-sponsored 737 type ratings and getting jet jobs from it, one with a certain new charter outfit not entirely unconnected to senior moderators on this site.

Now, speaking personally, and I stand by to be flamed here, if I were >95% certain of getting a job, I would mug the bank manager (again) and enrol on a B737 type rating course tomorrow. Luckily I'm still in enough good standing with the bank to do this, although all that money eventually has to be repaid.

However I am very concerned, firstly that it would not get me a job, and secondly that it would do me harm later in my career to be one of those flash gits who bought his way in. I'm not casting aspersions myself upon those who do this, more power to them, I am just worried about how potential employers would see this in the future. Todays line pilots make tomorrow's fleet managers and people's memories are long. All in all it's a high risk, high reward strategy.

So, all in all it looks like I'll be finishing the FI(R) rating I started last year and taking the well-trodden instructor route.

cheers!
foggy.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Foghorn,

It's been a while since any significant numbers did a paid for jet type rating to 'improve their chances.'

The memory of the vast majority using this particular forum doesn't extend that far back so I promise this isn't a knocking exercise.

Use you skill and judgement to determine the reponse of an interviewer at a turboprop/regional jet/freight company when they see a 737 in your licence.

The buy your jet rating tactic blew up in a lot of faces but it is always something a normal person will try to forget and therefore this is the last place you will hear of such personal disasters. People will only write about it here when it worked for someone they heard about. Heads remain firmly in the sand regarding all whose chances of that first job suffered terribly.

The PFO letter is just about guaranteed when there is a chance of a really good first time job and they see that shiny jet rating in your licence.

I got a wage this month and apart from a few bob on the car owe nothing to anyone but if you write me and the other working pros off when we tell you the truth it really is on your own heads. It's very difficult to attract contributions here from experienced, working professional pilots because they see exactly the same attitudes that ruined or hindered people's career when they were starting out.

This is a huge pity as the majority of you end up only getting information from those who are trying to sell you something or are only a couple of steps further up the ladder than you. The second type is actually far more dangerous than the sales person - they have to justify the decisions and outlay they made. Telling you they porked it up takes a very strong person.

That's why we run the PPRuNe seminars - nothing to sell you and we are experts in telling you the stuff ups we and our friends made over the years:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

rob

[foghorn]

ppt,

Your wisdom is duly noted and understood with thanks, however I'm not sure if you read right through my post before posting: it's the instructor route for me as I am not at all sure that even currently the type rating method would work. It seems like one hell of a big gamble for me. I understand that you may have been developing the theme for the benefit of others.

Notwithstanding your comments, it seems to me that the number of turboprop/regional jet/freight compan[ies] is diminishing these days, especially the passenger turboprops, in favour of 737 operators, with the death of Gill, BritWorld, Platinum, the possible effective closure of KLMuk to new pilots, CFE disappearing into BA, the merger of Brymon and BRAL into BACE which might be becoming a BA cadet training airline, etc. etc.

I wonder if this will be a factor in future hiring? Is it not possible that the job market has changed significantly since the last recession, providing more openings for (say) lowish hours 737 rated people and less for the old self-improver instruct -> turboprop -> jet route, who might spend years instructing on a low wage just to have to fund a type rating later on? On top of this all the TP freight operators I have talked to are currently asking for a type rating on an obsolescent type that you can pay them for, with no guarantee of a job at the end of it, and have done this for a few years. Even with the potential hazards of a shiny 737 type rating in a regional interview it could tip the balance in favour of doing one.

This is not me writing off the voice of experience, this is just an observation, the questions above are genuine not rhetorical, highlighting the thoughts going through my head at the moment. I would genuinely appreciate input from yourself and others.

cheers!
foggy.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Good post mate,

My reply was written exactly because yours was the single post recently that actually weighed up the pros and cons of purchased type ratings along with a positive alternative route. It was written for those reading your thoughts and not you yourself.

As you know too well jet type ratings have raised their nasty little heads in several threads recently. Before they become flavour of the month and a training provider jumps onto a lucrative bandwagon you guys need to hear the other side of what they can do to your putative careers.

Your arguements are entirely rational and thought through but the truth has to be told to those who just listen to the stories they hear. A jet rating on your licence tells an interviewer at a good but non 737/jet company that you'll sod off just as soon as you can - nothing else.

Secondly, unless an interviewer attends the **** ups at major training providers they wouldn't know what an ACp or TPX or XZY course is if it jumped up and bit their backsides. Some of you are shelling out big money on so called advanced courses and the majority of people reading your CV's haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about.

There is an entire layer of industry between you as wannabees and us in the seats of jets. That layer has its own agenda, living to make, companies and careers to improve. This is entirely seperate to what you want to do.

Spend a few months on this forum and you'll all find out which ones also share and want to further at least some of your interests.

Finish on an upbeat is what we tell our mods so here's the close.

The contract market is going demented - airlines and corporate. Even airframers are struggling to find crews for deliveries and demos. This of course is the market for the significantly experienced and there are few who willingly want this type of work. If we get a bit longer without martial unpleasantness or a significant player going bust the shuffle up through the industry will really make itself felt again.

It's all carefully hidden but savage undercrewing is really beginning to bite across a swathe of UK companies. There are a few of you who will really think about where you want to be in five years time and not just grasp at expensive straws. We hope to add a few more to that select bunch.

[CrashDive]

Rob - what can anybody add to that, it's both brilliantly put and true !

So listen-up all you wannabe's and take honest stead from those of us who have travelled the very rocky road that is aviation before you. For we do not want you to suffer the many trials and tribulations that beset our own careers - and hence much of the reason why PPRuNe exists, i.e. to put something back - and would instead have the journey both clearer and more honest ( e.g. w.r.t. your expectations and for those who would sell you useless & unnecessary courses, to say nothing of exposing the tactics of certain scurrilous employers, i.e. all - well certainly a fair few - tremble at the thought of being 'exposed' on PPRuNe ).
Veritably there is no hiding place for the aviation charlatans of this world, as they are now too easily exposed and, as knowledge IS POWER, we implore you to imbibe your fill from the fountain that is PPRuNe !

Ps. My waxing lyrical hat, in the style of Henry V(?), is now off - but I hope you get the point !

[Nearly Man]

FlyPuppy

I'm gonna get a type rating on a Miles Magister and what you gonna do about it, big man?

ElNino, Flypuppy is not only immature, he can't hold his drink and probably hangs around outside mens toilets .. However, the point he's trying to make is that this is a forum for wanabees, not 'blokes who've done it and pulled up the ladder behind them' forum!

And also last time I looked it was a pilots website and not an airline management/shareholders website! I think he's got a point and making it!

I think there's a limit to the number of hoops you can expect a person to jump through for a job .. if not, where will it end?

There's nothing wrong with having a pop at them for doing it and this is the place to do it in ......... so, back to the good old days of Pprune wannabees with scrapping and different opinions

Anyone got an idea where I go for a good 737-200 type rating? :eek:

[CrashDive]

My personal opinion - and I'm pretty sure that Hamrah (JM), PPT (Robin), Captain PPRuNe (Danny), and numerous others will support this - is that self-sponsoring oneself through a jet type rating is a very risky undertaking !

Indeed it would be true to say that there is many an organisation that would have you part company with lots of your very hard earned money in return for that (supposedly) lucrative 'jet-qualified' addition to your license - HOWEVER having the rating is, I'm afraid, not enough.

E.g. (imho) Any reputable operation would be able to offer some level of 'line training' over and above the 'basic type rating'.
As to why ? Well, doing an intense ground school course, followed by the minimum amount of simulator, and a few tight ‘base-training’ circuits in the real aircraft ( all over a period of about 10 weeks, minimum ) does not make you a jet airline pilot !

It is crucial that the intense ground school/sim/etc is consolidated by an equally intense period and standardised period of 'Line Training' - and it is often for this reason alone that many airline Ops Directors / Chief Pilots will strongly caution ab-initio pilots against spending money on a self-sponsored type-rating(s), i.e. the whole thing is an enormous gamble - and so folks trained as such are often viewed with a somewhat jaundiced eye.

So, and unpalatable is it may seem, it might pay to remember that just because you have a (F)ATPL plus a shiny new (self -sponsored) jet type rating in your CPL license it does NOT guarantee you a job at the front of said same jet – indeed, imho, the thing that really seems to make the difference is that extra bit of 'sparkle' that you're able to 'bring to the party' (so to speak), i.e the stuff outside of the aviation arena.

Rgds,

Tony.

[skysheriff]

rob, excellent post.

scroggs :

are wannabes with 200h unqualified to fly a jet ? many ab-initio in many major european airlines flew with that kind of time in boom years. this is not to say that experience does not count
that some of them cant land a jet straigtht in cavok does not seem to bother anyone
airlines are just like your regular corner shop
RAF bomber pilots in WWII were end of duty on lancs after 500h.
I am speaking about heavy bombers in real combat conditions

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think the consensus is settling around self sponsored type ratings are a bad thing - don't do them. Which has always been my personal line.

For the current crop of Ryanair pilots taking this chance it has worked very well. This chance arises during recessionary times in the UK aviation market and dissapears as things pick up.

There are many happy and many unhappy pilots in FRA - like every airline you care to mention.

The sector has changed since the early 90's. There are fewer TP operators outs there and a heck of a lot more 737 operators. Hence a jet type rating course is not the esoteric gamble it once was for the self sponserer.

The advice remains though - unless you have a pretty definite IN to the company, don't pay for a very expensive jet type rating on the off chance.

Cheers

WWW

ps a very important thread this one.

[HARRY GREYHOUND]

When I payed for my B737 rating in Jan 97 with BM there were four of us on the course all fatpl , one had just come out the army and held rank as major with 4000 heli hrs myself and the others had less than 900 hrs total.I agree with Crashdive the course lasted 6 weeks, was very rushed and for this reason I felt the level of knowledge gained was poor, itwas all over too quickly and I felt that I had not got a sound start to an airline career. Immediatly after the course the army major was the only one to be offered a job with BM and straight away had to do another week of ground school followed by more sim. this just shows that the original course is not adequate.As for the rest of us one eventually got a job with GB but they put him through the entire course again because they probably thought the self funded course was no good, different SOP'S etc. The third guy went on to fly the 146 and eventually after a few interviews and frequently being told the rating is worth nothing without experience I got a job on the B737 eighteen months later! this was with a company who were type rating cap 509'ers anyway, so I am pretty sure the self funded B737 rating was a waste of money. Nowadays I feel that whether you have the rating or not its your personality and approach to the job, and will you fit in with the company culture thats more important.This certainly seems the case at EJ. So finally don't be tempted by the claims of training organisations, they are in business to make money,keep your money in your pocket and wait a little longer , that job will come.:)

[Broken Wings]

Harry G - Good post and good advice. Cheers.

[Cheshire cat EGHH]

Yeah but its not extaclly going to help us wannabees..

You read there shocking application??
__________________________________

How do I make an application ?

You can only apply by submitting an on-line application via our Web-site www. Ryanair.com .


We do not accept applications in any other format, No Fax’s. No hard copy CV’s, No telephone enquiries, especially NO walk-in / drop-off CV’s in other words, no one will be able to answer your questions!


You must supply credit card details with your application in order for Ryanair to deduct a STG£50 processing Fee since when do potiental empolyers Charge you for "thinking" about your application??


If you are selected for Simulator Assessment and Interview there will be a further charge of STG£150 payable on the day MORE TO PAY!!!!


Important change from 5th April 2002. We will now only consider applications from 737 type rated pilots. If you do not meet the minimum requirements then please don’t apply as you will only be wasting your time and money. We have had a phenomenal response to date and now have more than sufficient applications from non type rated pilots to fulfil our requirements for full conversions to the 737-200/ 800. If you have applied to Ryanair before the 5th April 2002 then your application will obviously be considered for courses due to commence over the next six months. If you secure employment with Ryanair then your STG£50 application fee is refunded.
As i said no use to us freshly trained pilots, we can't afford to work for ryanair!

[Baldie Man]

Reading that pile of anal slurry from the website has made me feel ill.

How could anyone want to apply for a job with that company? I couldn't bring myself to do it, I just couldn't. :(

Someone please tell me they're breaking an employment law.

BM.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Hahahaha ... decent of them to refund you your 50 quid at the end, after you've just blown off 12 grand on a type rating for them :rolleyes:

[foghorn]

metabolix,

I think you'll find that there are two camps here in those who are even remotely entertaining the possibility of self-sponsoring a 737 type rating.

The first is as you say, thinks they deserve a 737 RHS just because they have a CPL/IR. To be honest I think these people are a minority.

The second is just looking for any break into airline flying at whatever level, and can see that until recently the low cost 737 operators have been just about the only ones hiring. Therefore if you are considering a TR it sort of makes sense to get a 737 rating.

I'm in the latter camp (although I have decided not to do one without a firm job offer for the reasons I outlined in an earlier post).

cheers!
foggy

[Splat]

My stance on this is that one way or the other, you'll end up paying for the TR, be it on a lower salary, bonding etc.

I know 4 people who went through the BM thing mid 90's, all where offered jobs in the end. Also, on full pay rather than reduced pay, plus, by the time the'd had a refund from the tax office (not sure how this works, but I'm told it's what happened), the TR only cost about 7K. (one guy messed up a landing and had to do a go around in the a/c at a cost of £43 a minute - note the risk).

For myself, I'm not prepared to get a TR, unless it's conditional on a job ofer, for two reasons - 1. which TR, and secondly, 6 weeks off work would pretty much terminate my employment.

Yonks ago, when I was trying to get an IT job, I was prepared to work for a period pretty much for nothing to get a job. Almost without exception, this was seriously frowned upon by all interviewers. If I offer to pay for my own TR, will this also be the case in aviation, and will my CV receive an even quicker PFO?

Much as I don't like shelling out 20K for a rating, I can't help but think it's the way it's going in order to get a job. We never had to pay for MCC's, but the same applies there.

There are just too many people chasing too few jobs, and what more natural filter is there for the airlines when times are hard than to get individuals to take this on. Don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour of it, just I see it'll be the norm in a few years time.

S

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I can't see self sponsored speculative type ratings becoming the norm.

There would spring up a number of cheap and nasty schools with the bare minimum expertise to gain JAA approval. They would all compete on price and the quality would be minimal.

Also they would teach only generic SOP's. There is a suprising difference between airlines on how to fly even the same model aircraft ( as I am personally discovering at the moment ).

The end result would be a pretty poor one. And that would matter becuase these graduates would next stop be on the line for base training and line training with real live pax. The Line Trainers job is hard enough as it is without having to cope with someone who is low hours, has done a minimal type rating course using different SOPs.

Such graduates would require much more line training and thats more expensive and more hassle for the airline to organise than would be a proper planned type rating course run by an airlines own staff. As happens now mostly.

MCC being self sponsored and cheap and nasty is OK becuase its largely a tick in the box item for most people. Also the difference between a rubbishy MCC course and a rubbishy type rating course is that in an emergency a rubbishy type rating course could well manifest itself in a smoking hole in the ground.

This time will pass.

Recruiting is gathering a good head of steam barring Gulf War 2. Yes it will take a good year or two to start draining the pool of unemployed grads but by this time next year I reckon the good and the lucky will be getting their first jobs again.

Compare and contrast that with my views over the past nearly 12 months...

WWW

[onedaymaybe?]

I am English but learnt to fly in Australia, I saw many of my instructors and friends go onto bigger and better things while I was training.

What I did notice was that although some of them were lucky enough to go onto jets this did not seem the norm.

More often than not most of them went onto either piston twin or turbo prop operations for many years before going into a RHS of a jet.

I am now back in the UK and have been instructing for some 5 years. I would think that although a RHS would be an ideal I would be extremely happy in a turbo-prop flying for one of the many airlines that operate them.

I think I would learn a great deal from turbo prop operations and would welcome the opportunity.

I have had the opportunity to go through the interview process with Ryanair and was not successful. I wish all the others who did get through through the best of luck and believe that one day my day will come.

Would I buy a type rating Though ????

It seems easy to say no right now , but after some 3100 hours of flying light aircraft it does often get tempting to weaken. But with no real offers on the cards the idea of loaning £20,000+ and then having to pay back more at the end of the day with the interest, it sobers you up.

[Flintstone]

OK all you wannabees, let's see what there is to learn from this thread.

On the one hand we've got the self appointed skygod, confessed protaganist and somewhat confused ("...I suspect it is a brilliantly efficient way..."/"I think we have establised it is a crappy deal" and "As a shareholder.."/"I'm not a shareholder...") WWW.

On the the other we have the likes of Towers and Crashy.

I know where I'd put my money, or not, as recommended by the more lucid of those mentioned in the above paragraph.

WWW you have finally destroyed your own credibility. It's been coming for a while but this thread is the last straw.

What a sham(e).

[laurie]

This thread has is not about www's credibility - it's purpose has been to throw up a great read amongst all the other ****e on pprune.

Further I would say it has been entertaining and INFORMATIVE to wannabees all over. Don't forget there will be newbies to the forum who will have learnt a hell of a lot by following just one thread of many.....

WWW has annoyed some through his style of expression, and some others think he has moved on into airline life and forgotten what it was like to be a wannabee. Rubbish...

Well look up what the word 'forum' stands for on webster's or whatever. It takes all sorts, and in this case, I would much prefer to have heard www's contributions alongside scroggs, Towers, and every tom dick and harry.

Its the way informative threads come together.

Go easy folks,

As Jack Nicholson once said "We're all in the same cage"



Cheers,

Laurie

(First person to correctly identify said scene, and film, wins a 737 type rating!!!)

:)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

All I ever said was that:

a) Ryanair can be a very good company to work for.

b) In some respects you can't blame them for letting people self sponsor their ratings if there are enough fools lining up to do so.

I am glad this thread has attracted so much comment from so many people covering so much ground. Thats what makes it useful to Joe Wannabe. I doubt if it would have run to a page 3 had I not made my original reply on page 2.

WWW

<snip, cut + paste)



Flintstone - I had this curious feeling that you didn't like me... :eek:

So I searched all your posts on this forum - and Lordy! Of the 5 times you have posted here in each case it has been expressly to condemn me.

Now I am flattered that you care so much but I've got the message now - thanks.

The other notable aspect of many of your postings elsewhere is your dislike of Ryanair as an airline and Michael O Leary as a person.

It must have felt like Christmas when you discovered a thread with my comments on regards Ryanair! :)

I'll just get back to answering countless Wannabe emails about which school/course/route/bank/license/airline that I receive every day. Oh and continue to do that which I can to get ex-students and colleagues an airline job. Lets see what am I doing next week? Oh yes, spending an evening giving a recent OATS graduate a mock airline interview to help him prepare. Because he asked. Oh and what was I doing six weeks ago? Giving an ex-student a license check ride for free to help him out as he tries to keep current.

I ain't forgotten what its like to be a Wannabe. Its just easier these days if I say something you disagree with to throw mud in the form of I don't understand anymore.

Countering the argument and making your own counterpoint always produces a better thread and reads better to the population at large.

But if it makes people like Flintstone happy to have a pop at me then so be it - my lifes too good to get worked up about it.

Cheers,

WWW

[scroggs]

skysherrif

Apologies for the delayed reply - I have to work sometimes!

I didn't say that 200-hour fATPLs shouldn't fly jets, but I do believe that more experience is desirable before you get in a 737 rhs. It would appear that Ryan and EZ agree with me, as they both require applications only from 737-rated pilots - and these pilots will need 500 hours on type to be considered. Your paid-for 737 rating won't help here, I'm afraid.

As for low-hour pilots flying bombers in WW2, I think a comparison of chalk and cheese would be closer! The needs and priorities of the RAF in 1939-45, combined with the relative paucity of suitable candidates, forced that situation. The safety of the aeroplane and its contents weren't high on the list of priorities! The 'boom times', as you call them, when many low-hour pilots were getting jet jobs, really only lasted from 1998-2000 and were not typical of the last 20 or 30 years.

Anyway, I don't decide who gets what job where, I just expressed a personal opinion. Whether you share it is neither here nor there - but I'll bet that most experienced pilots would agree with me, as would the airlines' insurers!

The main points you all should take from this thread are:

1) Whether or not you agree with their recruitment tactics, EZ and Ryan offer good terms and flying for inexperienced pilots. Don't dismiss them because you disapprove of their procedures.

2) Paid-for, third-party type ratings without associated line training are a total waste of time and money.

3) The jobs market is beginning to move, so have faith. However, there are now, as there have always been, more wannabes than jobs. Work hard to distinguish yourselves above those you will be competing against.

4) Look beyond just the jet operators for that first job.

[redsnail]

Scroggs,
Agree with you 100%.
Esp point 4.
I have just got the nod to go onto the 330. Not A330 but SD 330.
:D
Think beyond jets and get some experience up. None of it is ever wasted.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Directly following on from Scroggs' point number 4:

5)Willing suspension of disbelief and critical faculties.

Wannabees have incredibly finely honed skills whether here or amongst each other in discussing and rating aircraft, training organisations, instructors and beer. With the exception of the beer you seem to, year after year, come up with a very definite pecking order in terms of quality, integrity and value for money. It is remarkably consistent over many years and many cycles of students. A couple of FTO's trade very heavily on this indeed.

You bring the same judgements to bear on many other aspects of your life, again with remarkable consistency, but it goes completely out of the window when it comes to your first flying job.

If you can accept the points in the first main paragraph it must stand to reason that there is a pecking order within the airlines as well. Quality of training, maintenance, rostering, lifestyle, operational integrity and financial stability appear not to enter your thought processes until you are on your second or third airline.

If you're qualified and waiting for that first job use your time wisely and find out about our pecking order and really target the companies that will give you a quality foundation to a very long career. Just because it is big, shiny and doesn't have the name Cessna and Piper on the side doesn't mean it's worth wasting a chunk of your life and getting a lousy start. Crap companies operate aircraft that look very sexy to you - think about it.

6) Repitition of number 2): Don't do a jet type rating. You've already been warned elsewhere on this forum recently that a significant number of Australians from Ansett are jumping the JAA hurdles. If you spend any time over on the Dunnunda forum you will have read of their backgrounds and experience due to the unique nature of their job market. If you haven't visited that august forum you may as well know that these guys have got more hours than just about every single UK chief pilot interviewing them.

7) Errr, that's it.

Rob

[redsnail]

PPT, a fine post.
The Oz market isn't unique. You'll find a similar set of hurdles in Africa, New Zealand, Canada and the US. I think the European aviation market is the unique one. ;)
It is the way in which the Oz CAO's are written that dictates the career path for many.

[Snigs]

An interesting read.

I asked Hamrah this question at the last Gatbash, his reply was very similar to those of Towers and Scroggs above.

I believe that his main point was that any Tom, Dick or Harry can go off and buy a type rating but the thing that (most) airlines are looking for is a person who will fit well into the team. "Would I want to spend 6 hours sitting next to this person on a flight deck?" is the question they need to answer. Having a type rating is of absolutely no use when it comes to assessing that.

My advice to all Wannabes here from someone whose been around PPRuNe for years (Between my first post and this, I have used the information here to help me get my ATPL(fr)). You must take heed of the advice of the experienced Captains on these boards (Towers, Scroggs et al.), you won't go far wrong!

WWW in your last post you seem to have raised yourself up into the realms of a Demi-God. Whilst your benevolence is admirable, Lets see what am I doing next week? Oh yes, spending an evening giving a recent OATS graduate a mock airline interview to help him prepare. Because he asked. Oh and what was I doing six weeks ago? Giving an ex-student a license check ride for free to help him out as he tries to keep current. your humility knows no bounds. People seem to be reacting to your “holier than thou” attitude and having read your last post I’m not surprised. Please stop digging a deeper hole for yourself, I can barely see the top of your head even now.

[Flintstone]

WWW

I have far better things to do with my time and energy than dislike you.

My feelings about Ryanair and MOL are well known and, oddly enough, shared by many though not of course Ryanair shareholders (real or imaginary).

The last time we crossed words was when you lambasted someone for having the temerity to be downcast and whinge about it in this forum. You abused him, called him names, held him up to ridicule and never apologised.

Then, as now, your stance changed as it became clear that many of the contributors thought you were getting ideas above your station.

Many wannabees, rightly or wrongly, come here looking for advice. We all know what they are going through, some of us just have better/longer memories than others.

As moderator you a have certain responsibilities that none of the 'normal' contributors here have. It is my and other people's opinion that you abuse those responsibilities with your conflicting comments, about faces and "...smoke and mirrors...".

If you can't give these people proper advice, solace or whatever it is they need leave them alone. They've enough on their plate without being patronised and fed false information.

Some of us also give up our time to help others, we just don't have to tell the world.

At least Flypuppy checked his facts. Must have missed your apology there too.

[whisperbrick]

Could n't agree more with you pprune towers,

Its naive to lust after the big shiny aircraft:granted a newly qualified CPL will take anything initially to get the foot in the door but then begin looking at the big picture:where do you want to go from there?

A suitable lifestyle should rank well above what you fly:after all it is only a tool to generate profit for your company and if you think it is somehow 'cooler' to fly a boeing than a shed wasn't it really a waste of £50000:should have bought a TVR instead.

Try and decide early on in your career whether you think you would prefer shorthaul,charter or long haul:the lifestyles are radically different.

personally I like shorthaul and am looking forward to returning to it:therefore I will probably never fly anything bigger than a 737 tops:am I upset:not at all.

look at the BIG picture folks !

[Luke SkyToddler]

FFS ... will you guys lay off it with the attacks on www? Why should he not be entitled to express an opinion just because he's also a mod? This place is so ridiculous sometimes ... the guy plays devil's advocate for a couple of posts, all of a sudden there's flame war deluxe and people throwing their toys out of the cot and threatening to not post any more, and accusing him of disappearing up his own @rse now that he's a jet pilot, blah de blah de blah ... it's like "1984" in reverse, the wannabes are the thought police and the mods are the ones getting taken down, for daring to occasionally post things that remove the rose tinted goggles a few of you live behind.

So lose it with all these ridiculous anti-www posts the lot of you, if you really have a problem with him personally then use the 'private message' button and spare us the boredom of having to read through all your stupid little dummy-spit posts that contribute nothing to the debate. If on the other hand you just aren't grown up enough to read all the conflicting viewpoints and make up your own minds on important issues like these, then you probably shouldn't be trying to get into this career.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Firstly, a word of caution to those of you having a pop at WWW... BACK OFF! Whilst you may be frustrated at the style of the commentary I do not see anything that is insulting. Just because you have interpreted it that way, having a go at WWW for his style of post is not part of the debate. Additionally, I personally resent the insinuation that we have somehow changed our editorial stance here just because someone advertises on here. By all means debate the rights and wrongs of paying for a type rating but consider the fact that if it wasn't for the advertisers on here yo wouldn't be having this debate in the first place! :mad:

Secondly, it would appear that some of you haven't been listening very carefully to the advice that is and always has been offered to you on this forum and at the bashes. I distinctly remember being criticised after one of my talks for being too negative about what happens after you get your shiny new fATPL. Well, if those of you who have been using this forum for the last five or six years haven't figured out that it is VERY hard to survive until you get a few rungs up the ladder then you have obviously not been paying much attention.

I would first of all advise those of you looking for that first job to remember the old adage about not burning any bridges. This is an inceredibly small industry and once you have been in it a few years you will realise how important it is to use ALL the contacts you make over time. I would also add that if you want to seriously screw any chances that may suddenly appear out of the blue of a job, just continue to make enemies of those who are already on the inside. It's not rocket science! :rolleyes: More people get the tip off about a serious job possibility from 'friends and aquaintances' already in employment than from any advert you may see in Flight International.

I cannot give you any better advice than that already provided so eloquently by Robin or Tim. You may not like what you hear all the time but forewarned is forarmed. The few, bright, newly licenced pilots who are fortunate enough to get jet jobs within a short time of finishing their exams are the exception not the rule. Anyone who has gone into this without weighing up all the odds only has themselves to blame.

There will always be some people who will pay for a type rating in the chance of enhancing their prospects. There is NO utopia and there will never be one. As long as there are more pilots than jobs for them this will be the case. Those of you slagging off Ryanair are predictable. I also know many pilots who fly for Ryanair and the majority of them are perfectly happy with their lot. They knew what they were getting into and they are probably some of the best rewarded pilots out there. There are a few who are not happy with the workload but show me an airline where that is not the case.

As Robin mentioned, you have to talk to the people who have been in the company for more than a few years, the ones where the honeymoon period wore off years ago to get a real understanding of what the job is about and what the company is like to work for. There are real problems for some with the management style of O'Leary but the majority of Ryanair pilots I am aquainted with are more than happy for him to keep the company profitable as long as he doesn't get involved directly with them, and he doesn't.

I have always said that if you are going to go into this job and you are not one of the few who are lucky enough to be selected for full sponsorship then you'd better have the personality and stamina to get through the rough time and depression when the novelty of having passed all the exams wears off. It is far better to aim low and be pleasantly suprised if you get something better than you expected than to give yourself an ulcer by being bitter at your misfortune when it dawns on you that your primary goal is not likely to be achievable.

There are always going to be people who decieve themselves becuase they they believe that with their high pass marks in the writtens and first time passes at the flying stages that they are somehow just a step away from a good job in the RHS of a jet. What they don't realise is that no matter how good your CV looks, if you don't have the personality and maturity together with the confidence and experience of real life when you go for your interview you may still not be considered for anything. If you are having a bad day when you go for your interview and if you cannot impress on the people interviewing you that you are REALLY someone who they want to spend time with then it doesn't matter how good your passes were in the exams.

FYI, I paid for type rating! :eek: There, I said it! What I haven't seen in this thread is someone mention a type rating on anything but a jet. I have never advocated that you pay for a rating on a jet, especially if you have no or very little experience. As has been pointed out by others, it is more likely to be a hinderance and a waste of money. If, a very rare and big if, you were guaranteed a job by whoever did your type rating then there is nothing to debate really except to figure out how to raise the money. At the end of the day as long as there are people who are willing to pay for the rating there will be companies exploiting it and I have no reason to balme them. Most of them exist to provide ratings for experienced pilots but there will always be a few who think it is an advantage and will spend the money.

Before I am drawn and quartered about having paid for a type rating I had better explain. In the days before JAA I had attained my fATPL after a couple of years of correspondence courses and a stint flying skydivers in a C182 to build my hours up to the requisite 700 necessary at the time. After I had my shiny new licence I worked several odd jobs whilst going through the pains of sending out CV's and collecting the rejection letters they spawned. After more than a year of looking for work I met someone who flew a bandeirante and he suggested I try and get a type rating on that as it would be relatively cheap and there were quite a few operators of them around the country. I did a bit of research, got hold of the manual and some sample ARB questions and booked the written exam. After passing the exam I applied for a grant that was available to the long term unemployed and was given £500 towards the cost of a course that would enhance my prospects of as job. I made a few more enquiries amongst all the operators to find someone who could sell me some training on type and do the 1179 for me. It cost me another £3,500 and the promise that I 'MIGHT' be offered some work as an F/O on the bandit with the company. It took another few frustrating months but I eventually had a bandit type rating.

I was offered some freelance work as an F/O with the company but it was in fact costing me money to travel and stay near the airport for the few flights they were throwing my way. At least I had made some useful contacts in the industry whilst I was looking for someone to do my type rating and I used to stay in touch with them. One day I rang one of the companies to see what the state of play was and by chance an F?O had resigned the day before to go to Air UK on the F27. The food chain was working. As one F/O moved up to bigger equipment I was offered a full time salaried position as an F/O and they even paid for my uniform. I was another step up the ladder.

There is some luck involved but mostly it is a determination and a get up and do it attitude that makes the difference. Not everyone can do it and I would be interested to know the numbers of those who have given up at the various stages in their quest to become airline pilots. Even when you are on the ladder there are no guarantees but with time comes experience and with experience come opportunities. For the vast majority of airline pilots out there they have all fought their way up the food chain and it is not a bad apprenticeship. The few lucky ones who went straight from new licence to RHS jet have missed out on a large part of what makes the job enjoyable... the experience.

So, don't damn everyone who pays for a type rating. Some of them will be shooting themselves in the foot and may actually give you an advantage. Those of us who went for something less glamorous can pass on the experience and encouragement. Consider the fact that if none of you paid for your initial training and licence then the arlines would also have to pay for it.

Finally, make as many contacts as you can with those who are 'inside' the job and try not to fall out with them as they may just be the one who can answer the Chief Pilot when he asks them if they know you and what are you like. Burn bridges at your own risk!

[Broken Wings]

Danny
A timely post and posibly even an epitaph to the thread as I'm not sure where the debate can go now with that summary? After 5000+ posts you haven't lost the touch ... and no my tongue is not brown!;)

[Paterbrat]

The existence of Pprune as a reservoir of knowledge and advice is invaluable. A resource that would have been a great help on my own journey through the system. It is a struggle that is, as it has just been so succintly pointed out by our esteemed leader, undertaken by each and every one of us in this profession. It is hard always was hard and that is part of it's worth to us. Attitude plays a major part in it, and as one who in a small way hires and releases, I can only applaud the advice just given.

[Flintstone]

Skytoddler.

I never said WWW wasn't entitled to an opinion. I just have a problem keeping track of what that (changing) opinion is supposed to be. It all comes down to credibility.

WWW claims that I don't like him. This isn't true. I'm saying that he should make up his mind and if he wants to treat the whole thing as a game with multiple usernames and conjuring references, do it where it is less important.

This is only a bulletin board but in the wannabees forum things get taken a little more seriously. They have a lot to contend with. Having people give their own, differing, opinions is healthy. One person offering contradictory advice only adds to their load.


Danny.

I didn't say WWW had insulted anyone on this thread, I was referrring to his treatment of Smartcol in a previous thread.

There was, however, a strong inference that flypuppy was simply making up what he had to say about Ryanair's fleet. No apology was offered when flypuppy demonstrated seemingly sufficient proof that he checked his own facts.

If that sort of thing is ok by you then who am I to argue? It's your train set.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

And on the subject of "Train Sets" , it is the employers` train sets and they can set the rules on who gets a job as they see fit. MOL appears to have found a way of saving on a portion of training costs, however nasty it may taste. It is not fair ...but no-one ever said it was.
It has been stated several times on this thread now by people with a shed load of experience that a Type Rating with no time on it is not worth the paper it`s written on. How will it look on your licence whilst at the interview with the Turbo-Prop Operator with a B737 TR on your licence....."Yes of course I only want to fly your aircraft!!!"
Everyone knows someone who got onto Jets with 250 hrs and good luck to them if they did. Most people don`t. Paying for a TR with MOL might work for some. I can bearly afford the training never mind a Type Rating.
If as happened with Capt Ppune there is the offer of a job if you pay for the TR then I can see the logic. Every one is different and must make the decisions that are right for them.
I don`t like the way things are at the moment but it ain`t my train set and no-one asked me to start training.
When things pick up and the experienced guys get hired the goalposts will move again and hopefully in our favour.
Listen to the advice given it may save you loads of cash in the long run.
If your desperate to spend money there are still places available on the Wannabes Seminar where I`m sure this subject will be covered in great depth.
DWW

PS I`m sure WWW is not trying to wind people up and to prove it I`m sure he`ll buy everyone at the seminars a drink to prove it!!:D

[Snigs]

I sense a veiled dig at me….. :(

I have no permanent axe to grind with WWW, in fact I have found some of his advice very useful in the (distant) past. However, recently, there does seem to have been a lot of contradictory comments from him. I am, perhaps, exercising a little CRM, suggesting to him that he stands back and reassesses his tone and content, as a good FO would to a Captain who was digging a deeper hole.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What contradictory comments in particular?

WWW

[African Drunk]

Could paying for type ratings not take us down the US line of first officer programs where you pay not only for TR but also for 500+ hours RH seat with a company. I don't believe all should do flying the hard way but I sometimes find it depressing when pilots are so eager scrabble over each other. Should not the situation at Cathay show us if we are all happy to sell each other out, aviation will not continue to be the career it was{with exception of BA who's protection from BALPA should be a lesson for all of us}.

If no one brought TR from Ryan Air I believe they would start paying again rapidly. Would it not be ironic if the FO's who pay £20,000 for TR's were replaced by the next generation who could pay the company £10,000 per annum to fly.

Do take note of what was said above about keeping in contact with friends in aviation. With all my interviews mates in-house were asked for a reference. Best of luck to all, you do get there in the end and before I got a "proper job" I got great experiences flying in places from congo to the carribean.

[AMEX]

A few years back I had been offered a tug pilot position during the summer. Great way to get hours plus the place also offered to pay for my food plus about 300 quids a month. Not great money wise but in that particular country it was near enough minimum wages and a much better way to earn some dosh for the studying year to come :).
Having done some gliding there before the Chief Man knew me so when a couple of weeks later he received an enquiry from a prospective tug pilot, he told me about it.
The guy had offered not just to fly for free but also to pay £25 an hour to do the job I was getting paid for :rolleyes:
Very politely the Chief Pilot told him to Foff and that he'd rather pay someone he could trust rather than someone who would be looking at this position from a "I pay, I am a customer" point of view.
I was committed to the place and the fact they called me back year after year was a sign. As a matter of fact, as I grew older, they realised that money wise my needs were also on the increase. With a fair amount of imagination and a different social system too, they have always very keen to keep me happy.
Just to say that as much as I wanted to fly, I couldn't do it for free. They knew it and it never happened (please spare me the comments about flight training).

[G-SPOTs Lost]

A couple of questions...

1. Why do mums always buy crap pop?

Seriously though, there is nothing more frustrating than people who have no other interest than getting themselves into a 737. Personally I'm very lucky I have managed to amass a couple of hundred hours in a corporate fms equipped citation. What a lot of people cant get their head round is the fact that its the company cessna 401 that would really float my boat. A dodgy autopilot, flying around at FL80 looking like an ice cube. Challenging flying, making command decisions in the early part of your career.

People are in a massive hurry to fly heavyish jets. Learn your trade, serve your apprenticeship. Getting into the right hand seat of a boeing is not the finishing line.

There is a fantastic thread in the wannabees forum called I think "The full story from start to finish" I suggest that people read it. The guy was given the responsibility of a £300,000 cessna twin and trusted to fly single pilot IFR on an AOC wih all that that entails.

To the second question:

2. What would impress a interviewer more, a 1000 hours of which 200 are public transport multi single pilot IFR or a frozen ATPL with a bought type rating with no experience at all.

All that demonstrates is that you can fill in application forms for bank loans.:confused:

My advice to myself has always to learn to be a professional pilot not just fly in the RHS of a modern EFIS equipped airliner. It will of course come one day hopefully I hope I will do it justice

Im sorry to shatter the illusion but hand flying airliners is probably frowned upon and inefficient nowadays and when you do get to handfly, you're nothing more than a biological autopilot actuator following the Flight Director. You might as well be playing on a Play Station2.

I dont know what the rush is for. Ive got training bills like everybody else. The thought of paying more money for a TR is just totally stupid in my own eyes. Should FR or EZY want to do it that way then let them. Dont get involved. There are many more jobs for wannabees around that dont involve FR or EZY.

Remember flying is fun, enjoy the rocky road to becoming a professional pilot and dont be in such a rush. When you are a training captain you will look back and laugh I guarantee it.

This is my own personal opinion you can all take it or leave it if you like - agree or disagree. If all you want to do is fly a 737 then now must be a very frustrating time for you.

IN THE MEANTIME work hard on your flying, learn your craft and when the time does come you will be first in the queue morally, in ability and hours.

[Flypuppy]

The last three postings are the kind of stuff we need in this forum.

Thanks for that African Drunk, Amex and G-Spots lost.

[Mister Geezer]

I have to agree with Flypuppy, those posts make good reading.

G-SPOTs Lost's post sums up my feelings entirely. Wannabes (the forum) seems to oriented more towards the airlines than the G/A side of commercial aviation, which probably explains how more people seem to be solely interested in jets for their first job. I may be wrong in my impression however that is what I have noticed!

Single pilot IFR time in a piston twin is one of the best foundations you can give yourself in your career. Flying into a remote Scottish airfield in the islands armed only with an NDB and a stopwatch will soon separate the sheep from the goats when it comes to a sim check for your next job, however as previously mentioned the single pilot environment places you in a position where you need to make command decisions from day one. If you can fly single pilot IFR then you can fly anything!!!

I have a relation of mine who is a firm believer that his first job in aviation (air taxi flying) has made him a better captain when ever he climbs into his 744 to nip across the pond. He once said to me that if faced with a medical emergency and having to dive into a remote airfield then his air taxi back ground would help him (and has done so in the past) immensely. Having to re-file flight plans, liaise with the company on the phone and deal with the local air port authorities are regarded as a normal day out when flying your piston twin in air taxi ops. I keep being told that I would be better off, cutting my teeth in the 'arse end' of aviation before moving onto something large. Nowadays I fully agree with those words!

Sorry for straying a bit off the FR/EZY topic! :)

MG

[foghorn]

Speaking personally, I'd give my right arm to fly anything professionally at the moment, from B744 to a PA38.

Unfortunately I'd lose my class one medical if I did :D

Chin up, folks.

Cheers!
foggy.

[Dr.Evil 2002]

Mister Geezer.... I couldnt agree with you more. I think G-SPOT'S lost and AMEX's posts are spot on!!
I know so many Wannabes who continually go on about getting straight in the RH seat of a major, and dont give a second thought to the endless possibilites of some of the "REAL" flying opportunities that are out there, the kinda stuff that takes you from a average pilot to a good one.
I personally would jump at the chance to fly some single Pilot IFR, I couldnt think of a better grounding for a long and happy career. Who wants to sit and play with a computer in the plane all day anyway.......Well not just yet!:D

[tailscrape]

G Spots lost:

You are quite right, there is more to life than getting a Boeing immediately, however it can make life easier if you are that lucky.

As for what would an employer prefer etc etc....well a lot of the time I think it depends what side of bed they got out of that day! It is too big a subject to generalise.

If they are a reputable outfit like my mob ( big UK charter), they will most likely prefer a track record of some sort. Bought type ratings are little use, because we have a first class training department.

However, if it is a fly by night ****ehawk operator (no names please) then the type rating may be an advantage.

Who knows?

Dr Evil 2002:

As for twiddling knobs on a computer.

You don't do much of that going into Corfu at night with thunderstorms about....or Girona for that matter....or Kos....or lots of other places really.

More often than not, you will be hand flying a visual approach into a dark hole of a runway with very poor lighting and no ILS or the likes......

Believe me, I do it.

However, you are correct in the assumption that a great deal of time on a large aircraft is spent monitoring it.

After all, why would we be pilots if we didn't actually land it ourselves when you can see the runway?!??!

Leave that for the Airbus after I am dead (after a long flying career i hope ,and a long retirement too!).

Good luck everyone. Keep then debate coming!

TS

[redsnail]

Studi,
I would beg to differ. THe superb hand piloting skills are still very valuable. CRM is but one part of flying an aircraft. Situational Awareness is a much bigger part. This is what experience teaches you. Flying single pilot may not teach you how to programme the FMS but it will teach you how to manage an aircraft in interesting conditions and teach you COMMAND judgement.
It is a very strict teacher....

[Flintstone]

Studi

Not really. A crewmember with greater depth of experience is more likely to forsee a bad situation and convey his/her feelings to the other crew member. It's all down to experience which is something you can only gain with time.

Single pilot IFR is the hardest (and most rewarding, but NOT in monetary terms) flying I've ever done.

CRM is just one of many tools.

[MAX]

- What's the reason for bringing students directly from ab-initio courses into the cockpit of a modern airliner?

1) Ab-initio pilots get paid less than DEP's.

2) Ab-initio pilots are bonded longer and generally stay with the company for their whole career (loyalty).

I think you will find that these programmes with LH, BA etc. when they run are not because inexperienced, psychometrically tested people make better pilots, but because the bean counters decide its cheaper in the long run.

MAX:cool:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As Max says its primarily a HR driven policy to recruit cadets.

a) A proportion of the cost is recouped through lower pay.

b) Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man - the airline can control your training from day one.

c) You are less likely to leave the company as you can't afford to for the first 5 - 6 years and after that the loss of seniority is too much to bear.

d) Flexibility. They need some new FO's up in an unpopular base - fine, send the next batch of cadets, they ain't going to argue. Need 'em back in two years time, fine they still ain't going to argue. Try that with a direct entry pilot perhaps ten years older with a wife and two small children...

e) It shores up the empire of HR.

WWW

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Studi

I can see where you are coming from, but I do recall the story of (and the details are a little hazy - please feel free to correct me) an American Airlines DC10 getting very out of shape in the cruise. The captian had been flying a pitts special the previous day and when back safely on the ground having saved the day in the DC10 attributed the recovery on the aerobatic experience he had recently experienced.

This I believe happened in the 80's and was the causal factor in the then BAE Flight Training at Prestwick sticking there hand up for 10 FFA AS202 Bravo's for unusual attitude training. This was all at the request of British Airways who had provided BAE with the contract to train their ab initio cadets very much in the same way as the LH college operates now.

I appreciate your comments but on any given day pressing the direct button, highlighting the waypoint and pressing HOLD and the inbound track is not particularly difficult. I have no idea how an Airbus or Boeing FMS works and only have a little limited knowledge of my own but Im damn sure they wont work very well having had a cup of coffee accidentally poured into them......

It is then that this SP IFR experience gained when successfully operating under high pressure kicks in and pays dividends...

The above story may well be urban legend but there is no smoke without fire