Aw139 IFR skill test/prof check

[Non-PC Plod]

I recently had an answer to a problem which has been troubling me for a number of years as a TRE, which I wanted to share with the community as I expect ( and hope) it will receive some interest.
The problem was: how do you conduct the parts of an IFR skill test/ proficiency check which include mandatory simulated OEI under EASA and FAA rules ( ie- a precison approach & missed approach procedure) in a real helicopter? ( this problem does not arise in FFS). Because.....according to Leonardo ( including discussion with the programme test pilots) you can neither put one engine to idle nor can you use the OEI training switch for this purpose. The OEI trg switch is only mentioned in the OEI training part of the Cat A supplement, and is not intended or flight tested for use for example in a climb to 3000 ft as part of a published MAP. So....I am guessing a great number of checks over the past 15 years or so have been non-compliant, either with the authority's requirements, or with the manufacturers intentions.
The answer I have been given is that for this exercise, the instructor/examiner needs to physically restrict the movement of the collective to simulate the max PI available under 2.5 min or Max continuous power. There seems to be few other options, but I am concerned there is a danger that this will focus the examiner's attention on the PI at a time when he has other things to look at ( outside for example if the check is simulated IMC).
I thought I should share this, because I am not sure that this is widely understood, and this is info which the wider community needs to know.

[212man]

How does that work when coupled?

[Non-PC Plod]

I guess you can still stop the collective moving up, even if coupled. The FD just wont necessarily achieve the reference vertical speed.

[TeeS]

Hi Non-PC
Could you perhaps argue that the Cat 'A' performance does not end at 1000ft but continues right up to MSA?
Cheers
TeeS

[Non-PC Plod]

You can argue how you like, but the test pilots say you cannot use the OEI trg switch.

[TeeS]

Sorry Non-PC, let me try and put it another way. If you are carrying out a PC(I) on a pilot and you brief him to carry out a Cat A departure into cloud with a departure clearance to climb to 3000ft straight ahead, the pilot calls TDP and presumably you can select training mode and the pilot will fly the continued take off profile. At what point does the Cat A supplement require you to de-select the training mode in the climb? I don't fly the 139 by the way.
Cheers
TeeS

[JB-123]

From the AW139 RFM
ENGINE TRAINING MODE LIMITATIONS

Selection of Engine Training Mode (OEI TNG) is permitted only for Category A Training and OEI training (for conditions other than CAT A) in OEI simulated conditions.
Can't see a problem with IFR OEI Trg based on the above

[gipsymagpie]

Most Cat A certified helicopters with training mode will have similar limits if you asked the makers - the FMS only ever describes use in Cat A manoeuvres on all the types I’ve flown. It’s driven by the certification specs. The bare minimum is the take off and landing phases so that’s all they test. Customer demand might make them test elsewhere but I suspect that rarely happens as it’s not terribly marketable. I feel you get the most training benefit and meet the Appendix 9 LPC requirements below 1000ft anyway which is where it’s been tested so I feel perfectly comfortable using it in these conditions. Confined areas PC2 - maybe not.

I wouldn’t use a physical block on the collective by the way. There isn’t one for real and much more fun/realistic to mimic a suitable audio tone if they exceed your nominated power limit.

here’s the reference. AC29 MG 22 para e1


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1181x649/c4078f80_b6c3_4f80_a0d4_c0c424c278b8_a1568038385754d4b282807 db69c6982bb72f3e5.png

[Non-PC Plod]

JB 123 - The problem is that the test pilots who write the RFM say you cant do it. Therefore, if you do it, you are operating outside of the OEM certification.
Gypsymagpie - exactly as you say. It aint tested for anything outside of Cat A training, , so it aint certified!
Tees - I am guessing they would say 1000 ft ATS, at the end of flight path 2 is where any Cat A profile ends?

[malabo]

Depends on your jurisdiction and the company you fly for. These days if you can't afford sim you can't afford a 139.

in early days we'd have to land a 212 with both hydraulics off, OEI to droop without cooking an engine was done by N1 limiting the remaining engine with partial throttle, full on autos, etc.

139 OEI in all flight regimes was always done with the training switch. For that matter we'd also do both AP off on the aircraft because the sim didn't replicate it well and real life landing profiles kept you in paint shaker mode until the APs kicked off.

I never sweated RFM limitations much in training and was supported by both my company and my regulator, and by the manufacturer's own test pilots.

[megan]

we'd have to land a 212 with both hydraulics offSporting, there is no dual failure case in the emergency section. Why do it? You have two systems for a reason.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/619x315/untitled_0122949a325acb5041d75e42280aab3575aeff84.png

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/613x324/untitled_3adc4949f80d613270c59327a1bf25f83d7bcc19.png

[Winnie]

The limit says "CAT A Operations"

Isn't the entire flight either Cat A or Cat B? If you fly to either performance requirement that applies to the entire flight? Like for instance the fuel levers in the 76 can be moved to XFEED in Cat B operations during Cruise only, but not in Cat A?

I don't fly the 139 and I don't have a bone in this fight, just curious.

[Outwest]

The 139 RFM has no reference to Cat B like Sikorsky does. When I queried Leonardo on that they said that anything that is not CAT A is Cat B. I see your point though about the flight being CAT A since CAT A is not just about performance. That's were Class 1 enters into the picture.

[gipsymagpie]

The limit says "CAT A Operations"

Isn't the entire flight either Cat A or Cat B? If you fly to either performance requirement that applies to the entire flight? Like for instance the fuel levers in the 76 can be moved to XFEED in Cat B operations during Cruise only, but not in Cat A?

I don't fly the 139 and I don't have a bone in this fight, just curious.

Usually from a training perspective the only bit of the Cat A certification that needs training is the approach and departure. I suspect this is backed up when you read the performance section of the training supplement. I would bet the only graphs in the training supplement are ones for the landing, takeoff and path 1/2. There will not be an en route graph. Also pay attention as some aircraft cannot achieve path 2 when doing training OEI when they can for a real OEI. I feel that’s not usually a problem as you’d be brave to do a training OEI in a limiting obstacle environment in IMC.

[Winnie]

Well in Canada you may have to demonstrate a missed approach with a failure or already failed engine, with vectors back to a single engine ILS with landing, That involves cruise flight, and can't be tested then if you can't cruise?

[gipsymagpie]

Being devil's advocate, I'd highlight it does not say you need to be single engine between top of climb and next approach and anyway, why would you want to be speed (OEI) limited while operating a commercial aircraft where time is money. If I can safely and sensibly lob 5 mins off a check ride then why not? Experiential training is only worth it to a point

[Non-PC Plod]

Well in Canada you may have to demonstrate a missed approach with a failure or already failed engine, with vectors back to a single engine ILS with landing, That involves cruise flight, and can't be tested then if you can't cruise?
Winnie - my point from the outset.
So, you have to find a way to simulate an engine failure that doesnt use the OEI training switch. EG, you could make a crunching noise, and say " for exercise, you have a No 1 engine out CAS message" and then make sure the candidate doesnt pull more than 80/80 twin PI.

[JB-123]

Or.....
You could continue to use the OEI Training Switch in accordance with the RFM as we always have done:cool:

[Non-PC Plod]

Or.....
You could continue to use the OEI Training Switch in accordance with the RFM as we always have done:cool:
I think you are missing something - The authors of the RFM say you cannot use it like that!

[Winnie]

I think you are missing something - The authors of the RFM say you cannot use it like that!

I guess the question is, is this a PUBLISHED limit, or just something "they say". If they didn't publish it then you can do it the way it has always done, until they publish a limit, in which case then there will more simulator rides and less rides in the aircraft.

[JB-123]

Exactly-
I think I'll fly my helicopter in accordance with the RFM and other relevant OEM documentation rather than pprune !!:ugh:

[Yara-ma-yha-who]

From the AW139 RFM
ENGINE TRAINING MODE LIMITATIONS

Selection of Engine Training Mode (OEI TNG) is permitted only for Category A Training and OEI training (for conditions other than CAT A) in OEI simulated conditions.
Can't see a problem with IFR OEI Trg based on the above

What’s interesting is that the OEI Training Mode limitations changed with Rev 22 of the EASA RFM. I’m not sure what’s in the FAA RFM, but the EASA RFM no longer includes the …conditions other than Cat A… bit, and now states:

ENGINE TRAINING MODE LIMITATIONS
Selection of Engine Training Mode (OEl TNG) is permitted only for
Category A Training in OEl simulated conditions.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Don’t fly the 139 either, but as has been asked before but does the RFM (or even Leonardo directly) state a height above which the OEI trg switch must be selected back to normal? What trg benefit is there to be gained by keeping it in OEI above that height all the way round the circuit to the final approach? Once any profile has been flown, diagnosis done and first set of ECL actions completed could the OEI switch not just be deselected? “Continue with the rest of the checklist as if still OEI, but I’m just going to reselect AEO, ready, 3, 2, 1 etc”
You’re not really gaining much climbing all the way to eg 3000’ OEI, all the important stuff is done well before then, by that point tends to be down into subsequent actions, considerations etc. Fly the pattern AEO, then just before top of drop, “no drills required, reselecting OEI for the approach, ready, 3, 2, 1 etc”.

[Apate]

I totally agree that the language used by the OP has been imprecise at best. As others have stated, the RFM will provide the appropriate limitations that have to be followed - end of debate. Post #22 above seems to indicate that this is a non-issue. If you are CAT-A training then you can use the Training switch.
On top of that comes the "risk management" element that every single trainer should be aware of, so limit flight in simuated OEI to those times absolutely required in order to comply with the flight check schedule (PC or OPC).
Finally, if conducting checks in EASA land or UK you are required to use a simulator if one is "available". As far as I know there are a number of available simulators ;)

[Non-PC Plod]

Exactly-
I think I'll fly my helicopter in accordance with the RFM and other relevant OEM documentation rather than pprune !!:ugh:
Of course - no argument. But if the documentation isnt 100% explicit, (as in this case about what is regarded as an acceptable environment for Cat A OEI training) you can ask for clarification from the people in charge of this. I did so , and am sharing the answer. Do what you like with the info!

[Winnie]

Well as was stated earlier, it doesn;t even reference Cat B, so the entire flight, takeoff to landing is Cat A. No biggie. As long as the publication states the relevant limitations, and you follow those, then you are good, doesn't matter what anyone SAY as long as it is not in the regulated portion of the mentioned RFM.

CHeers
H.

[Non-PC Plod]

A flight can only meet Cat A requirements if you : meet the CAT A Weight/Altitude/Temp requirements; the engine power assurance check is acceptable; you fly a Cat A profile for T/O & landing.
If you dont meet all the above requirements, then you must be Cat B, so its not true by a long shot that "all flights are Cat A"!

On closer inspection of the RFM, I take back what I said before about a lack of clarity. On page S12 L-11, it quite clearly says:

Note The training procedures may be carried out up to the end of Take off path (ie 1000' ATS (300m) and to the completion of landing / balked landing.
No performance information ( distances and climb gradients) are provided for the applicable training WAT weights, therefore the continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances presented in this supplement are NOT applicable for training procedures.


So it categorically states that you cannot use OEI training after 1000 ft, which may interfere with IFR missed approach procedure training ( depending on how you do it.)

[JimEli]

...but I am concerned there is a danger that this will focus the examiner's attention on the PI at a time when he has other things to look at ( outside for example if the check is simulated IMC).


Just curious, how do you determine the PI has met the standards otherwise?

[TeeS]

Hi Non-PC
Thanks for the additional RFM extract, that would have made offering an appropriate comment rather easier for us, which is why some of us were asking where the RFM tells you to switch off the training mode, because Cat A performance does not finish at 1000ft above the heliport, it continues up to MSA where you still require OEI 50ft/min RoC.
I'm also not sure that anyone said "all flights are Cat A", I think what was said was, if you are operating Cat A then all the flight is Cat A.

I am rather surprised that AW limit it in this way, as you say, it makes it difficult to do realistic training and testing. Unless I have missed something (quite possible), the EC135, EC145 which I spend my time on, do not have any such limitation and the training mode is, I understand, used to produce the numbers for the graphs. The only difference being that the Nr at which the training mode is automatically aborted is reduced and the training mode represents a slightly sub-spec engine (5% I seem to remember) which is why the real aircraft OEI performance should be better than you see in training.

Cheers
TeeS

[JB-123]

A flight can only meet Cat A requirements if you : meet the CAT A Weight/Altitude/Temp requirements; the engine power assurance check is acceptable; you fly a Cat A profile for T/O & landing.
If you dont meet all the above requirements, then you must be Cat B, so its not true by a long shot that "all flights are Cat A"!

On closer inspection of the RFM, I take back what I said before about a lack of clarity. On page S12 L-11, it quite clearly says:

Note The training procedures may be carried out up to the end of Take off path (ie 1000' ATS (300m) and to the completion of landing / balked landing.
No performance information ( distances and climb gradients) are provided for the applicable training WAT weights, therefore the continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances presented in this supplement are NOT applicable for training procedures.


So it categorically states that you cannot use OEI training after 1000 ft, which may interfere with IFR missed approach procedure training ( depending on how you do it.)

It states no such thing
It says "may be carried out"
The next sentence is a statement that the Training Procedures have not been certified re "continued Takeoff, rejected takeoff, continued landing and balked landing distances"
So don't rely on / use them when using Training Mode
I could start a whole new thread re Cat A and people's complete lack of understanding of the same
However CAT A Training procedures can be used CAT A, which by definition includes CAT A En-Route
[I think we should stop now!]

[Apate]

[I think we should stop now!]

Yes. Let's move on and leave Non-PC in his rather strange world of confusion! The rest of us will simply follow the RFM rules and apply some old fashioned common sense.

[Non-PC Plod]

Dont worry, I am not confused - I have spoken face to face with the experts who wrote the RFM, and I have found the reference which they included to make their intentions clear.
My conscience is clear - I have shared the info. Interpret it how you like. Thread ended for me.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Just an idea but as an old-school TRE I had to conduct OEI training by throttling back one engine with the aircraft at a minimum of 90% or RTOW. In aircraft like the Bo105 that got to be a little too interesting at times but the S61 wasn't a lot better. Conducting that kind of exercise below 1000 feet could be considered to be foolhardy these days but I wonder if leaving the OEI Training Switch on after a go-around and during the landing phase below 1000ft would be supplemented by throttling back above that height to provide a realistic look-see at the aircraft performance and how it deteriorates at high MSAs. Just a thought. The regulators might not like it but then again they can get a woke-ish.