The Death of Streamer-cutting and Flour-Bombing.

[Mach1Muppet]

With the new rules now in place, Articles of food are no longer permitted to be dropped form aircraft. Does this mean we have seen the death of streamer cutting and flour bombing in these new regulations? If so that is a bleak end to a tradition of Aviation and a true travesty.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1920/dropping_b6e31b18f169925e000804d96926a1b727f22dd9.jpg

[43Inches]

Just drop two flour bombs or streamers at once, then you have dropped 'things' and not 'a thing' and the rule no longer applies.

[Lead Balloon]

I know you're being tongue-in-cheek, 43, but we must be careful...23 Rules as to gender and number

In any Act:

(a) words importing a gender include every other gender; and

(b) words in the singular number include the plural and words in the plural number include the singular.

"Act" there includes instruments made under an Act (like CASRs made under the CAA Act). Also, since 2011, headings to provisions form part of the legislation.

[Squawk7700]

Place the object out the window during >-1 G manoeuvre, therefore you didn’t “drop” anything.

[43Inches]

What if I 'throw' something or mayhaps 'Launch' it from the aircraft? I suppose I could also 'eject' a thing or go full excuse and say you intended the item to 'enter orbit' but gravitational forces intervened and altered its trajectory. What if I interpreted that 'a thing' was a member of the Adams family and the rule only applied to dropping disembodied hands.

In any case I'm sure you could apply for dispensation to enable dropping things for events with proven history and include that in club manuals with of course several pages of what not to do and how 'a thing' must be contained, carried and dropped safely.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Doncha just 'lurve' the ref. 91.195 ' Picking Up Or Setting Down People Or Things During Flight'....

'Picking Up' - Hang on Billy, just strap this harness on and hold the BIG LOOP UP, I'll catch it with me hook.....then....YOU HANG ON!

'Setting Down' - Here, just you put this 'chute on, open the door, and lean forward...more....MORE....

OR...Am I completely misreading this?

Does this preclude dropping 'supplies' to stranded tourists / farmers etc stranded by floods etc.??

[megan]

Does this preclude dropping 'supplies' to stranded tourists stranded by floods etc.??An SMS paper would have to be written, forwarded to CASA head office by registered mail for each and every circumstance, once approval is received you may then embark on the drop while observing each and every rule that CASA has deemed necessary. Evidence of having completed a low level flying course would be mandatory. It's all in the interests of safety you understand.

[Squawk7700]

An SMS paper would have to be written, forwarded to CASA head office by registered mail for each and every circumstance, once approval is received you may then embark on the drop while observing each and every rule that CASA has deemed necessary. Evidence of having completed a low level flying course would be mandatory. It's all in the interests of safety you understand.

+ $175 or whatever the going rate is.

[griffster94]

They don’t stop trying to remove our fun do they. And now because I’ve never dropped the flower bomb, I’m never going to be able to drop one. Dammit.

[mcoates]

What about spreading ashes of a fellow aviator at the request of the deceased/family ?

Would he/her's ashes be a "thing" or would it be a parachutist without a parachute.

[Capt Fathom]

Well if you can’t spread ashes, how can an airliner dump fuel?

[Sleeve Wing]

Who dreams up this stuff ? :ugh:

[43Inches]

An SMS paper would have to be written, forwarded to CASA head office by registered mail for each and every circumstance, once approval is received you may then embark on the drop while observing each and every rule that CASA has deemed necessary. Evidence of having completed a low level flying course would be mandatory. It's all in the interests of safety you understand.

I think by the time any application is processed the target has either starved to death or survived the ordeal with no intervention.

I do think many a 'mercy' flight might have to be declared and then assessed post op.

As per Shells lead fouling article after the lead is ejected via the exhaust and cooled, it re-solidifies. Therefore every time you depart in powered flight using AvGas you are dropping lead everywhere you go... CASA must now fine every AvGas powered aircraft that flies as it's dropping exhaust particles without approval. Or will CASA not consider lead as 'a thing' or possibly that lead in solid form will remain airborne and not drop.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I am just VERY GLAD that I don't have to put up with this 'C#AP' A N Y M O R E.....!!!

NO Cheerrss.....

p.s. I wonder just what a 'thing' is / could be.......

I had a 'thing' once, but Penicillin fixed it..........

[ShyTorque]

We've had almost identical rules in place in UK for many years. As stated, the way around them is to apply to the authority for a permission. It will cost you, of course....

Same thing to land a helicopter in a congested area. Dealt with by the same department as the one that grants permission for a full flying display so as well as the cost, they state that it might take up to 42 days to get it!

But of course the aircraft owner wants to land there TOMORROW and if he can't it's all the pilot's fault!

[Checklist Charlie]

Griffo admits

I had a 'thing' once, but Penicillin fixed it..........

:D:D:D

CC

[roundsounds]

Flour bombing and streamer cutting were illegal pre Part 91. Just keep doing what you’ve been doing.

[megan]

Don't forget the recipients of the food and water drop would have had to sign a paper witnessed by two individuals they don't know saying they are willing to accept the risk of having said food and water dropped, possibly causing them fatal injuries if the pilot errs.

[Checkboard]

How are the Chemtrail operators going to cope? :)

What gets dropped from aircraft normally?

emergency fuel dumping
emergency liferafts and provisions
stock feed
Ag aircraft sprays - insecticides & fertilizers
Pest control baits
forestry seeds & seedlings
occasional animal species re-introduction
Water & fire retardent bombing
cloud seeding
Banner towing pickup and drop off
Human remains - ash spreading
meat bombs/parachutists
flour bombs and streamers for recreational competition...


Does this regulation cover all of that, or does all of that have to have individual dispensations?

[ShyTorque]

Checkboard,

I think a dispensation (permission in CAA terminology) would be needed, at least in UK and would form part of the AOC.

[compressor stall]

Much of that list is permitted under Part 138 with appropriate procedures

[John Eacott]

Checkboard,

I think a dispensation (permission in CAA terminology) would be needed, at least in UK and would form part of the AOC.

But this isn't the UK, hence the Forum Title and thread about CASA.

There also tends to be a bit of fixedwing-centricity about many of these changes (and responses here) which overlooks the enormous amount of rotary ops which go on day-by-day and could be affected by interpretations of this latest legalese nightmare.

[lucille]

So this clearly means that the next generation of freight pilots in non pressurised aircraft will be denied the sublime pleasure of peeing into a bottle and then watching said contents of bottle being sucked out of an open vent window.

Yet another of life’s little pleasures slowly but inexorably being removed by zealous bureaucrats.

[Lead Balloon]

Might be worth reading CAO 29.5. Admittedly, CAOs will be gone in the early 2000s when the new simple, outcomes-based regulations are completed, but 29.5 is still in force for the time being.

The bits quoted from Part 91 of CASR merely replicate that which was in CAR for decades. But some people have made lots of money spending decades taking them out of CAR and putting them into CASR. Don’t you feel safer?

[sagan]

Interesting the threads popping up as various folk and operators find and start understand the reality of these changes etc.

This again falls at CASA's feet.

Maybe a new thread covering the overall implications of 119 etc is needed?

There are real issues and implications that a lot of GA operators don't get, and it will come at a cost.

A lot cannot be compliant.

[POBJOY]

Is this a definite no for the Tiger Club Turbulent Team to visit for one of their famous low level, formation, tied together, flour bombing, under the hoops, balloon bursting, streamer cutting (toilet rolls), non radio, permit aircraft, VW powered, garden parties. Thats a shame they were so popular before nerds ruled the earth.
CASA Cancel All Sensible Aviation, or Campaign Against Sustainable Aviation. Makes you weep..
I might add that we had strict rules and quality control, Toilet rolls should be warmed in advance to ensure a good 'stream', and McDougal's self raising flour used for good spread effect.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Megan, Re Your # 18.....

At the 'Old Fliers Group' (JT) we were being regaled with a story of the 'early days' of WA newspaper deliveries to Country towns.
The ex RAAF Hudson aircraft did not have the time to land at various destinations, and it was too expensive anyway, so the bundles were simply pushed out by the 'kid in the back' at the appropriate shout from the pilot.

Our raconteur tells of the time he pushed out a large bundle, exactly on the shout, and it landed IN the back of the waiting ute.....a direct hit......and ....ALAS....said ute was never to be driven again.

Nobody was in the ute, that was part of the procedure, the guys on the ground were all watching the aircraft of course, no doubt taking bets on how far from them the papers would land, like they usually did.
Nobody was injured, No animals were harmed /sacrificed and they eventually got a new ute!
(Which they never took out to the airport......)

TROO STORY !!

[Superfly Slick Dick]

It’s interesting that its a ‘strict liability’. What if my EFB that Im using overheats and bursts into flame; am I liable if I eject that out the window to stop it from burning me and the interior of the plane?

[Progressive]

With the new rules now in place, Articles of food are no longer permitted to be dropped form aircraft. Does this mean we have seen the death of streamer cutting and flour bombing in these new regulations? If so that is a bleak end to a tradition of Aviation and a true travesty.

Flour bombing and streamer cutting are both considered "air displays" (which also covers competitions) see 91.180. Approval required from CASA, there is even a box on the form for both these activities.
Dropping of ashes would probably need to be done by an Aerial work operator. The same for dropping relief supplies.

[Lead Balloon]

Of course: An interaction with the regulator and payment of a fee required. Thank heavens they have a form for it.

[sagan]

Of course: An interaction with the regulator and payment of a fee required. Thank heavens they have a form for it.

Not that you will be able to find the form now they have changed the website.

[laardvark]

That leaves the air force with a difficult decision to make .
pay off thousands of retrospective penalty units or release "things" over bullshyte castle .

[Lead Balloon]

Not that you will be able to find the form now they have changed the website.
People use the CASA website?

[rmcdonal]

That leaves the air force with a difficult decision to make .
pay off thousands of retrospective penalty units or release "things" over bullshyte castle .
Not really, all of these rules are "Civil" the Air Force is "Military", different rules and regulations.

[leslloyd]

Anyone partaking this activity these days may want to phone there insurance broker,as i did last year,his answer when i asked would i be still covered (include short field landings too)
was "it would be 50/50,i took it that i would have a fight on my hands with any accident claim.Colin

[43Inches]

Back years ago when insurance companies were more local and personable you could get away with being stupid and the insurance would still agree to cover an amount relative to the stupid displayed. Not sure how the newer larger corporations react to acts outside the normal. If your aircraft is already insured for ab-initio training you are probably covered for most other things risk wise. If you are only covered for private use with hour restrictions etc the answer could be completely different.

[lucille]

Honestly, this thread is better located in the humour forum. Take your good selves and CASA a little less seriously. It’s a big country, they can’t enforce every ridiculous rule that some sociopath at HQ dreams up.

[ShyTorque]

But this isn't the UK, hence the Forum Title and thread about CASA.

There also tends to be a bit of fixedwing-centricity about many of these changes (and responses here) which overlooks the enormous amount of rotary ops which go on day-by-day and could be affected by interpretations of this latest legalese nightmare.

Yes, I’m not blind. My point is that people need to address their concerns to the authorities and find out how they can get permissions, just as we have to do in the U.K.

[Squawk7700]

Honestly, this thread is better located in the humour forum. Take your good selves and CASA a little less seriously. It’s a big country, they can’t enforce every ridiculous rule that some sociopath at HQ dreams up.

Except that ever since the iPhone was invented, every peanut spectator has the power in their hands to make your fun day turn very bad.

I have a *friend* that has not done a beat-up since the iPhone was invented.

[Arm out the window]

The bits quoted from Part 91 of CASR merely replicate that which was in CAR for decades. But some people have made lots of money spending decades taking them out of CAR and putting them into CASR. Don’t you feel safer?

Spot on. The self-imposed deadline/s have generated waves of what is tantamount to frantic cutting and pasting with a few words changed.

Someone will need to come up with a new smiley euphemism for unintended consequences - 'minor flow-on effects' perhaps?

[43Inches]

I was going to start a new thread on this, but similar ideas are here. Are we getting to the stage that air law in Australia has become so convoluted and involving legal roundabouts that there is no way for the average person to comprehend let alone comply with them? Therefore the whole legal framework is basically unusable now, with no simple explanations and workings of how each rule should be applied it's almost to the stage that anarchy can occur as no-one has any idea what the rules are talking about. The more I talk to others about part 121 alternate rules and now these carry overs from CARs that are worded like Dr Seuss books it seems no one has any consistent ideas of what the rules actually are. So if CASA actually tried to prosecute anyone using them it would become a travesty as you could just bring 10/100/1000 pilots in and ask each what their interpretation is and not one would agree.

It then becomes like the terms and conditions caveat, where if you write a document so long and convoluted that the average person has no chance of reading it let alone understanding it, it becomes invalid.

I say do what you want according to common sense, if you get accosted and charged for anything under CASRs just get the judge to read the entire document. Then ask them if an average human can understand it and what would happen if the average driver had to contend with such rules before getting in a car.

[sagan]

I have to work an exposition for 119,91,135,121, 138 and continue with 141 while trying to move to 142.

GA is gone.

[Lead Balloon]

The original Civil Aviation Regulations 1988 (https://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdb/au/legis/cth/num_reg/car1988n158290/)were under 200 pages long. Total.

Today, you pick up a 200 page MOS, made under a 200 page Part of CASR, and that MOS points to CARs, CAOs and CASRs. F*cking masterpiece.

[43Inches]

CASR Revised 2021 Dec by me;

1. Don't crash; It is the PICs responsibility to avoid death, injury, prangs and embarrassment using common sense and non violent means.

2. To avoid crashing/embarrassment; Give way to the right by altering heading to the right, Head on both turn right. Lower aircraft have right of way, and don't challenge an overtaking aircraft to a race by diving or such to claim advantage (competing airlines exempt for fun purposes). Don't land or take-off on an occupied runway.

3. Aircraft in the circuit have right of way, anyone joining should do so from overhead or any other part of the circuit if safe to do so as per rule 1 and 2.

4. An aircraft must not run out of fuel/range while in flight. If the weather at destination is below minima you must have fuel/range for an alternate, the alternate must not require an alternate itself. (for the stupid carry more for mistakes or errors to avoid compromising rule 1)

5. To go in controlled airspace you need a clearance and must do what they say unless it contravenes rule 1. If there is RADAR, ATC will separate you, if not, you get a traffic service.

6. Drone operators are considered PIC and must not contravene rule 1.

7. Don't fly in cloud unless you have fly in cloud permission. Stay 1000ft vertically and 1500mt horizontal away from cloud otherwise to avoid straying into cloud.

8. Carry a radio dufus, tune into the local frequency, then you can talk to other pilots and aid in rule 1 & 2.

9. Anyone intending to operate an aeroplane must be appropriately trained and competent for what they intend to do, in compliance with rule 1.

10. Private operations are carrying friends/family and related for no financial gain, or airwork above private property or for private purposes that involve no direct remuneration for the service. Commercial operation is anything else.

11. Aircraft must be maintained in an airworthy state, where it would not be foreseeable that the state would lead to an infringement of rule 1.

[josephfeatherweight]

Are we getting to the stage that air law in Australia has become so convoluted and involving legal roundabouts that there is no way for the average person to comprehend let alone comply with them? Therefore the whole legal framework is basically unusable now, with no simple explanations and workings of how each rule should be applied it's almost to the stage that anarchy can occur as no-one has any idea what the rules are talking about.
Yes, we are already there.

[FullOppositeRudder]

It's quite simple really. Everything you do in an aeroplane is either compulsory or illegal.

[Rigga]

Hmm …are you reading the regulations accepted by the CAA? or EASA-lands regulations?

[Pinky the pilot]

I made the following quoted post in another thread back on 30th September and I feel it is worth quoting here;
finestkind posted

One of these was whilst training a chap who happened to be a Barrister ( with obviously too many spare neurons) and going through CAO, CAA and the ABC’s said Barrister made the comment “I can hardly decipher this sh*T.

I replied;
Precisely! A Lawyer aquaintance of mine once had a need to go through the old ANO and ANR documents (quite some years ago, obviously) and he made the observation that 'You need to have a legal background to even begin to understand some of this sh*t...'https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif

He also pointed out several direct contradictions in the ANR's. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/icon25.gif

His parting comment was that they were obviously written by a Lawyer who specialised in legalese and pettifoggery!

[wub]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXvPlu__vCY