What is going on at the top??

[Torchy]

You couldn’t make it up - or could you? Everyone in the RAF is to be an “aviator”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10250451/RAF-accused-needless-wokery-ditching-gender-specific-airmen-airwomen.html

[trim it out]

From Air Clues, Ed36 P30.
'Aviators'
By the way, if that’s the first time you’ve heard the term ‘aviator’ in that way, then get on board. No longer does it mean just aircrew, but the term ‘aviator’ has now replaced the generic term of ‘airman’ to bring right up to date the way we should describe all of our personnel in a modern and appropriate manner. So, it’s no longer ‘Soldiers, Sailor & Airmen’ but ‘Soldiers, Sailors & Aviators’. Watch out for TV commentators getting used to that.

[212man]

But former Tory MP and ex-Army colonel Patrick Mercer last night blasted the plans as 'woke b*******.'

I tend to agree with him! An ‘aviator’, by definition, ‘aviates’ - they don’t work in offices/stores/hangars/guard airfields.

[charliegolf]

Shouldn't it now be, 'aviators and aviatrixes'?:E

CG

[Ninthace]

I tend to agree with him! An ‘aviator’, by definition, ‘aviates’ - they don’t work in offices/stores/hangars/guard airfields.
By the same token, not all sailors sail.

[rolling20]

'Last night, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston said: 'With more than one in five of our recruits now women, the title 'airmen' does not reflect a modern, diverse Royal Air Force'
We live in a democracy , where we abide by the majority.
Why does he believe it has to change because 20% of recruits are women?
Has the term airman and airwoman put off potential recruits? We need to be told.

[downsizer]

Well since you are all no doubt still serving, and this is in some way relevant to you, why don't you all fill in the survey doing the rounds on this matter. I have.

[BEagle]

Dear me, what utter woke bolleaux! No doubt amending all the publications, MAFL etc. to reflect this nonsense will be a whole lot of fun too.

Are rank titles such as Senior Aircraftman going to change to something else too?

[trim it out]

No doubt amending all the publications, MAFL etc. to reflect this nonsense will be a whole lot of fun too.
Plenty of holding officers around to do all the Ctrl F/Replace with on the docs while they wait for a slot on a course :E

[Wyler]

Utter madness. I do believe salutes, Sir and Maam are also now in the firing line according to a chat with some friends still serving. Add to that the top brass want to be the first to be carbon neutral and the colours of the rainbow now seem to be the official RAF Colours and I bet the Chinese and Russians are pi$$ing themselves laughing.
Saw 4 airmen (can I still say that?) in the local town last week. 4 different types of boots, no hats, 3 with really awful beards and jackets flapping open. I have seen more professional looking members of the Taliban. Never have I been so glad to be a civvy and well away from this crap.

[trim it out]

4 different types of boots.
The horror.

Who cares as long as it's in the RTS/the right colour.

[Mogwi]

Aviator n. One who flies aircraft.
Sailor n. Seaman or mariner.

I rest my case.

You’d think he had better things to do.

Mog (aviator and sailor)

[JOSHUA]

The horror.

Who cares as long as it's in the RTS/the right colour.


Mmm, well I think we should care and I’m not ex military, only ever having flown civilian.
Taking a pride in wearing a uniform in the correct manner, is surely the foundation of self discipline that must be a pre-requisite of anyone who may one day have to carry out orders, whilst serving their country?! I despair…I wear my airline uniform with pride (perhaps not as much pride as I once did) and would certainly wear a service uniform correctly and with pride

[Rigga]

The poor Diversity induced Wokies are catching up with the spams who changed to this term a few months ago….a complete travesty in my view.

Driven, no doubt, by MOD hiring a diversity and equality ‘advisor’ who at this rate (using corrected terminology) is likely to be “directing the next conflict from a conciliatory view of the “conflict arena” and counting the Aviators rearranged into separated articles during the dispute in order to complain about the percentage of non-defined genders abused by the opposing party”.

I wish them well, but I will walk away laughing.

[trim it out]

Mmm, well I think we should care and I’m not ex military, only ever having flown civilian.
Taking a pride in wearing a uniform in the correct manner, is surely the foundation of self discipline that must be a pre-requisite of anyone who may one day have to carry out orders, whilst serving their country?! I despair…I wear my airline uniform with pride (perhaps not as much pride as I once did) and would certainly wear a service uniform correctly and with pride
It's actually a good thing that there is more than one type of footwear on issue. The realisation that different manufacturers cater to different types of feet/environments giving people the choice to wear what is comfortable and appropriate. There are currently three colours of flying boot available on issue/in service AFAIK (black/brown/tan?) so realistically even the colour doesn't matter, but maybe a tan pair of desert flying boots aren't appropriate given the UK temperate climate at this time of year.

[Less Hair]

How about Warriair?:}

[rolling20]

The irony of it all is that Monty Python were correct all along. Because that's the way it's going.
'I suppose you'd rather be at the pictures, than marching up and down the square?'
https://youtu.be/WS5D9csaySU

[fab777]

In my country, all of the Air Force members are called aviators. This is also the title of the lowest rank. I happened to be a second class aviator, driving a fire engine. People flying aboard aircrafts are called "crew members", and among them, those actually driving the planes are called "pilots".

[LOMCEVAK]

Or perhaps aircrew should now become known as 'real aviators' ......

Those who wish to change the English language such that it has ambiguity between singular and plural (the use of the word 'they') are not good communicators. Those who fail to acknowledge that in order for an animal species (of which homo sapiens is one) to continue to exist there must be biological male and female members of the species which mate are denying the fundamental scientific basis for mammalian life. Yes, there are hermaphrodite animal species but currently they are not eligible for employment in the RAF.

It is absolutely right to respect lifestyle choices and individual preferences (as long as these do not offend and disadvantage others) and language should not be offensive but we must not corrupt our language such that it becomes ambiguous and factually and scientifically incorrect.

[downsizer]

So you've all filled in the survey on MODNET then? Because it affects you all?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

It's actually a good thing that there is more than one type of footwear on issue. The realisation that different manufacturers cater to different types of feet/environments giving people the choice to wear what is comfortable and appropriate. There are currently three colours of flying boot available on issue/in service AFAIK (black/brown/tan?) so realistically even the colour doesn't matter, but maybe a tan pair of desert flying boots aren't appropriate given the UK temperate climate at this time of year.
Lucky if you can get a pair of any colour from stores these days, so people just have to wear what they've got!

[trim it out]

Lucky if you can get a pair of any colour from stores these days, so people just have to wear what they've got!
Budget all been spent on different types of hats and pilot costumes.

[trim it out]

Or perhaps aircrew should now become known as 'real aviators' ......
Perhaps we could give them a badge or something to denote their trade as real aviators? Didn't they try that with RPAS operators too but they felt excluded because it was a different colour thread or something?

[TLDNMCL]

This simply reminds me of the fable of The Old Man and The Donkey; so busy trying to please everyone that you end up pleasing nobody at all.

[Easy Street]

Personally I don't see why they couldn't have reversed the early-2000s abolition of the ACW/LACW/SACW ranks (which was considered an 'empowering' move at the time, but by the standards of today looks like it 'erased' women - there's a lesson there about the perils of trying to keep up with social scientific trends), allow individuals the freedom to switch between the gendered ranks as often as they like, and replace the catch-all term 'airmen' with 'airmen and airwomen'. As a bonus, the act of saying 'soldiers, sailors, airmen and airwomen' implicitly advertises the RAF's openness to both sexes. Yes, this wouldn't address non-binary or asexual people, but trying to please everyone - especially those of an activist mindset - is a very difficult thing to do.

[LS8C1]

Don't really know why people are getting so heated about this. Myself as a serving pilot in the military know I fly planes. Our new 'aviators' who support the mission know they don't fly planes. Someone who's in the flying branch must have a fair few insecurities if they're worried that those in ground roles have been given a title that may somehow make others think they get airborne as part of their job. As a qualified serving pilot you should have nothing to prove to anyone. Which does make me wonder who the majority of people commenting on this thread are.

[trim it out]

Don't really know why people are getting so heated about this. Myself as a serving pilot in the military know I fly planes. Our new 'aviators' who support the mission know they don't fly planes. Someone who's in the flying branch must have a fair few insecurities if they're worried that those in ground roles have been given a title that may somehow make others think they get airborne as part of their job. As a qualified serving pilot you should have nothing to prove to anyone. Which does make me wonder who the majority of people commenting on this thread are.
This.

Did you see all the excitement on social media over the fake notice that came out about "aircrew" eagles going on SAC/Cpl rank tabs too? Lots of frothing at mouths.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x1161/screenshot_20211128_211951_311a383081f0c24b2dda5c88b117cc31f 76f3cb3.jpg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1080x578/screenshot_20211128_211939_f72ec41cbfecd894b6459559a5bf18738 652dd45.jpg

[Wyler]

All valid points but it is not about what you think, or any serving/Ex member of the RAF.
It is about the global perception of the RAF as an effective fighting force and a credible deterrent. All of that is suffering badly because of this pointless PC crap.

[alfred_the_great]

All valid points but it is not about what you think, or any serving/Ex member of the RAF.
It is about the global perception of the RAF as an effective fighting force and a credible deterrent. All of that is suffering badly because of this pointless PC crap.

of course.

[alfred_the_great]

So you've all filled in the survey on MODNET then? Because it affects you all?

Your presumption that most on here are serving is touching!

[muppetofthenorth]

All valid points but it is not about what you think, or any serving/Ex member of the RAF.
It is about the global perception of the RAF as an effective fighting force and a credible deterrent. All of that is suffering badly because of this pointless PC crap.
Citation needed.

[Jimlad1]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.

[woptb]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.

Spot on! No doubt some still wish for a little “field punishment No.1”,my advice would be put it on your Christmas list,if you’ve been naughty,someone will oblige!

[Economics101]

The feminine form of the noun "Aviator" is "Aviatrix".
That should settle this woke nonsense. Mind you, some of them think that grammar is some sort of fascist construct.

[RAFEngO74to09]

The USAF is sticking with the generic term "Airmen" for all ranks, Air Force Speciality Codes (AFSCs) and genders.

The US Space Force recently adopted the term "Guardians".

[Barksdale Boy]

trim it out

Planes? Whatever next?

[BATCO]

Re IBN 101/21 in post 28, isn’t ‘ Reaper/Protector Mission Intelligence Coordinators and Cabin Crew’ a tautology?

Batco

[vascodegama]

I seem to remember that we deleted SAC(W) etc sometime ago for what was given as almost the same reason as this change. Are saying that the decision was wrong?

[Wensleydale]

Things have certainly changed....

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/601x800/poster_231c38b474d77662c2197fc4eeaa978d5ed9373b.jpg

[downsizer]

Your presumption that most on here are serving is touching!

Mate, come on. Well aware only a slack handful of currently serving ever post here anymore. That was the obvious point of my post.

[Gulf Flyer]

The feminine form of the noun "Aviator" is "Aviatrix".
That should settle this woke nonsense. Mind you, some of them think that grammar is some sort of fascist construct.


Good one, that made me chuckle!

[charliegolf]

The feminine form of the noun "Aviator" is "Aviatrix".


As it was waaay back in post number 4!:ok:

CG

[Cornish Jack]

Sounds like another "can brevets be worn on woolly pullies" pot boiler !
In a thread majorng on nomenclature, LS8C1's claims for employment titling might be more appropriate for woodworkers ?? ... at least he (or she) avoided the constantly misused 'jet'.
Yes, I know, just another silly old duffer dwelling in times past - bring back the hairy blue and pint mugs and 'irons' and hob-nail boots and collar-separate shirts and button-sticks .... oh, no, not button-sticks that would be a step too far !! :p

[NRU74]

As it was waaay back in post number 4!:ok:

CG
Was never very good at Latin, but I thought the plural would be 'Aviatrices' .

[Ninthace]

The feminine form of the noun "Aviator" is "Aviatrix".
That should settle this woke nonsense. Mind you, some of them think that grammar is some sort of fascist construct.
I am not sure that is right.

Etymologygeek suggests the word aviator comes from the French aviateur. If so, aviatress and aviatrice have historic precedence
https://etymologeek.com/eng/aviator
https://etymology.enacademic.com/6263/aviator

Anyway if you want a gender free term, what is wrong with aeronaut?

[cheekychimp]

Mate, come on. Well aware only a slack handful of currently serving ever post here anymore. That was the obvious point of my post.
Unfortunately (probably fortunately) the opinions of myself and fellow "male and pale" serving "Aviators" wouldn't be welcomed by the cybercops, as I've found out during endless D&I indoctrination sessions. Nobody is going to give an honest response on here if it isn't in keeping with current policy.

[Saintsman]

Sorry, but 'Aviator' does not sound as intimidating as 'Airman' when its shouted out by the SWO (though they are probably not allowed to do that anymore in case it upsets someone...).

[Krystal n chips]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.

Got it in one. Anything called progress tends to be an anathema for some...they probably quietly pine for the days of full kit inspections and closely examining "airmen's drawers, cellular " to ensure the creases are correct.

It's possibly a good idea not to use "trices" or "trixes" with regard to ladies however...these terms can often be preceded and evoke Freudian predilections .

But, so far, amidst all the frothing nobody has mentioned the most important point.

Irrespective of the rank / job title the only real question, is....can they still perform their role professionally. ?

Presumably yes of course, therefore all the "woke" epithets and similar indignation is completely irrelevant because ultimately the only thing that matters is that people can still deliver and perform their professional skills and expertise when required to do so.

[ORAC]

The only downside is it’s copying the French…..

[LOMCEVAK]

Got it in one. Anything called progress tends to be an anathema for some...they probably quietly pine for the days of full kit inspections and closely examining "airmen's drawers, cellular " to ensure the creases are correct.

It's possibly a good idea not to use "trices" or "trixes" with regard to ladies however...these terms can often be preceded and evoke Freudian predilections .

But, so far, amidst all the frothing nobody has mentioned the most important point.

Irrespective of the rank / job title the only real question, is....can they still perform their role professionally. ?

Presumably yes of course, therefore all the "woke" epithets and similar indignation is completely irrelevant because ultimately the only thing that matters is that people can still deliver and perform their professional skills and expertise when required to do so.
K n C, a couple of thoughts on what you have said. First, 'progress' implies a change for the better but some changes inevitably will be for the worse and both cases must be accepted as potential occurrences; please note my comment here is a generalisation without making any statement about the changes in hand. Secondly, an individual's performance will be affected by how they are addressed and respected so nomenclature and phraseology is important and, again, works both ways. Offensive and derogatory terms are unacceptable and cause demotivation and poor performance, but bland, ambiguous, dysfunctional wording can also be demotivational and destroys pride in oneself and in ones profession, thereby also reducing performance. There are two sides to every coin.

[Ninthace]

I would have been insulted had someone called me an aviator. No way would I want to mistaken for a growbag except perhaps at weekends. Mind you, having graduated from 2 of the 3 Service Colleges, referring to me as an airman would have got you short shrift too.

[Haraka]

Well , as obvously those who served some time ago have opinions that are deemed irrelevant to the current debate, best we let the current generation get on with it in their considered wisdom.. :)

.

[BA283]

And lo, the scene is set for the annual CAS/ Chief Warrant Officers Christmas message…………I’ve just about recovered from last years!

[wub]

So when a pilot says his aviators are sitting comfortably on his face, he is talking about his sunglasses, right?

[higthepig]

[QUOTE][/Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.QUOTE]
Currently serving and do not feel attacked at all and agree with many of the comments above. What grips me is that there are more fundamental issues I'd like the hierarchy to address rather than trotting out low hanging fruit changes. I have been working in a building that has had no running water for nearly 3 months, arrive at work today to find out there is no heating as that has also failed. Changing the collective name for us counts for co*k all when even basics like infrastructure is crumbling and failing, and I haven't seen the MOD Net survey, which is probably a good thing as my shivering bursting for a pee response might not be as well considered as they expect.

[NutLoose]

The annoying part is it’s not just a word change, it’s the costs involved, every poster, pamphlet, book and paperwork will need to be replaced to reflect the new title.

Still Av8or is easier to text ;)

so what happens to LAC or SAC? As that is still Aircraftsman

[taxydual]

Former Flt Lt Michael Davies wrote a book entitled 'Tale From the Headquarters'. Available from a number of sites. Read it and weep.

[Jackonicko]

The Royal Air Force does not own the word 'aviator', which has an accepted, long-standing and well-understood meaning.

Which is someone who flies.

Calling every member of the RAF an 'aviator' is as silly as calling every NHS worker a 'doctor', everyone in education a 'professor', and everyone in catering a 'chef'.

Anyone involved in any kind of writing, is of course a 'Poet Laureate'.

Language needs to be clear, and widely understood. This usage is neither.

Now if people are really too fragile/too intolerant/too good to accept the terms airman and airwoman, or aircraftman and aircraftwoman, then the RAF needs to invent a replacement that does not have an existing meaning.

Avior? Avion? Avionner? Aviane? Ardile? Brylcreamer?

[cynicalint]

How about Erk.

[Ninthace]

The Royal Air Force does not own the word 'aviator', which has an accepted, long-standing and well-understood meaning.

Which is someone who flies.

Calling every member of the RAF an 'aviator' is as silly as calling every NHS worker a 'doctor', everyone in education a 'professor', and everyone in catering a 'chef'.

Anyone involved in any kind of writing, is of course a 'Poet Laureate'.

Language needs to be clear, and widely understood. This usage is neither.

Now if people are really too fragile/too intolerant/too good to accept the terms airman and airwoman, or aircraftman and aircraftwoman, then the RAF needs to invent a replacement that does not have an existing meaning.

Avior? Avion? Avionner? Aviane? Ardile? Brylcreamer?
I prefer aeronaut. A nod to the naval roots, genderless noun, ideal

[Cat Techie]

Don't really know why people are getting so heated about this. Myself as a serving pilot in the military know I fly planes. Our new 'aviators' who support the mission know they don't fly planes. Someone who's in the flying branch must have a fair few insecurities if they're worried that those in ground roles have been given a title that may somehow make others think they get airborne as part of their job. As a qualified serving pilot you should have nothing to prove to anyone. Which does make me wonder who the majority of people commenting on this thread are.

Indeed, you are correct. Some like Rigga fly an office. They have not been in the military for eons. Others have been out of the military way longer that I have. I have been out of the service for half the time I was in, that was over a pension engagement. Majority of the people commenting are retired. Some of them I wager, were bullying juniors in their day as it was the done thing. I am woke to bullying. I would smash a bully in the face if I saw such happening now. Regardless of the court case facing myself. I do as an old boy, sorry an aircraft engineer, hate people using the word "Planes" to refer to aeronautical machines. Aeroplane (The English word), Airplane (FAA) or Aircraft. Not a Chippy or Astral Plane!

[Wensleydale]

Do police dog handlers still have an Air Dog, or do they have to use Air Bitch?

[Cat Techie]

Do police dog handlers still have an Air Dog, or do they have to use Air Bitch?

"Brain on a Chain" is the correct answer.

[Lima Juliet]

genderless noun, ideal

In fact, the ideal genderless noun contains … drum roll … man!

The etymology from Olde English for a male and female is werman for a male, and wifman for a female. Look it up if you don’t believe that. The wer , or sometimes wir, means male and is still used in words like werwolf (or werewolf as it now spelt) which literally meant manwolf. As for wif, that means woman and so wifman is a woman person. So the word man actually means person which is why we still have gender neutral terms such as human, mankind or gendered terms like woman - all with the word man in them!

Link to one of hundreds of articles on the subject: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/wer-and-wyf-man-and-woman/

So a person who is working in the air environment is … drum roll … an Airman!

Now I maybe Aircrew, that some would correctly call an Aviator, but that is because I am male. If I was female, or identified as one, then I would be an Aviatrix - as per one of our most famous Aviatrixes of them all, Ms Amy Johnson. Aviatrix ? Amy Johnson Arts Trust (http://amyjohnsonartstrust.co.uk/?viba_portfolio=aviatrix)

Women have had a tough enough time over some of the gender politics recently, surely we’re not about to cancel out the word Aviatrix that belongs to the brave female Pilots and Navigators over the past 100 years or so. Bonkers…

[Ninthace]

In fact, the ideal genderless noun contains … drum roll … man!


…..

Women have had a tough enough time over some of the gender politics recently, surely we’re not about to cancel out the word Aviatrix that belongs to the brave female Pilots and Navigators over the past 100 years or so. Bonkers…

If you were quoting my post the ideal genderless name I suggested was aeronaut. Not a man in sight!

Why aviatrix? Aviator is not a Greek root and I believe the word was not coined until 1927. Predated by aviatrice and aviatress so they have seniority.

[Lima Juliet]

If you were quoting my post the ideal genderless name I suggested was aeronaut. Not a man in sight!

Why aviatrix? Aviator is not a Greek root and I believe the word was not coined until 1927. Predated by aviatrice and aviatress so they have seniority.

Aviatrix, Aviatrice and Aviatress - all feminine nouns of the male noun Aviator. Which is why we agree.

As for Aeronaut - well naut is from nautes in Ancient Greek, which means sailor. So to me, an Air Sailor is more likely to be a flyer or operator too? :ok:

PS. Trenchard, Henderson, Sykes, et al went around this buoy many times in 1918/1919 on the formation of the RAF and Airman was chosen at that point as a person of the air. So really who are we to change that?

[MACRFA130]

Just had to register again after many moons away as I couldn't believe the woke idiocy I have recently read regading rank/title/gender pronouns being foisted on the service I loved and am now sadly becoming ashamed of.
Last Christmas's CinC 'effort' was cringeworthy, 70 Sqn boss blubbing on national TV and being given a 'that's OK type hug' by one of his SNCO's (WHAT???) a disgrace, vegan boots and now a Gender Network just confuse everybody and give those of a determination that there's other than male/female genders something toget all upset about.

Can I suggest those who wish to foist this 'progressive nonsense' on a once proud service call themselves 'AirEunuch' as it seems to adequatelty describe those who have none with which to stand against this rapid descent into ridicule.

Imagine the next war/conflict which will undoubtedly be lost because so much time will be wasted on hurt feelings there won't be time to fight....there will be more disciplinary hearings over 'hurt feelings' because someone calls another by the wrong gender, aircraft will potentially be lost because a pilot uses one of the the two gender ID's to his/her wing'person' instead of 'Ze', 'Per' and 'Hir' who then throws a hissy fit, crew cohesion falls apart because a crew 'person' takes umbrage at not being recognised as a non binary 'tomato'! Chaos will reign because no one will be able to remember who the hell is what......male/female/trans/'Ze', 'Per' and 'Hir' or any one of the other 90+ pronouns that are being made available for nutjobs to align with.

Serving today must be a daily nightmare with lunatics running the outfit.

[woptb]

Just refer to all as mate, CAS,SWO or wing commander,their little faces would light up!

[Ninthace]

Aviatrix, Aviatrice and Aviatress - all feminine nouns of the male noun Aviator. Which is why we agree.

As for Aeronaut - well naut is from nautes in Ancient Greek, which means sailor. So to me, an Air Sailor is more likely to be a flyer or operator too? :ok:

PS. Trenchard, Henderson, Sykes, et al went around this buoy many times in 1918/1919 on the formation of the RAF and Airman was chosen at that point as a person of the air. So really who are we to change that?
We are at cross purposes. Aeronaut like astronaut, has no implied gender so gets round the aviator, -trice, -tress, -trix issue was the only point I was making

Yes all sailors “operate” but only one of them steers but they are all part of a crew and they all have their part to play. In fact, in a ship, while operating is the goal, it is the last priority, the greater priorities being to float and to move. Having served in both colours of blue, I find there are a lot of parallels between a ship and a Station. To get an aircraft into the air is at the end of a long chain of tasks, all of which have to be performed by members of the “crew”. In my experience, many aircrew do not appreciate just how far that chain extends.

[Vonrichthoffen]

I rest my case.

You’d think he had better things to do.

Mog (aviator and sailor)[/QUOTE]


Totally agree ( aviator & sailor )

[tmmorris]

Calling every member of the RAF an 'aviator' is as silly as calling every NHS worker a 'doctor', everyone in education a 'professor', and everyone in catering a 'chef'.

This has already happened in US universities and it’s creeping here. When I was at university, our faculty had one Professor - the boss. Now it has about a dozen professors of different grades.

[FantomZorbin]

Saintsman Sorry, but 'Aviator' does not sound as intimidating as 'Airman' when its shouted out by the SWO (though they are probably not allowed to do that anymore in case it upsets someone...).

I'm aware of a currently serving officer being taken aside by the SWO and being advised that he should have had a heart to heart chat with the 2 airmen that the officer had reprimanded for slouching along jackets open, hands in pockets and no cap, never mind not saluting an officer. Discipline is way down the tubes now.

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/sxhaunU2AxY

[Asturias56]

"When I was at university, our faculty had one Professor - the boss."

All shal prizes I'm afraid - just look at the CofE - more bishops than attendees

[Avionker]

This thread certainly has the Pterosaurs in a tizzy…

[LOMCEVAK]

Do police dog handlers still have an Air Dog, or do they have to use Air Bitch?
Surely it should be 'Air Canine' in case offence is caused?

[Lima Juliet]

Ninthace Your sailor has a role in the operation of the ship? Where you say that everyone doesn’t steer the ship, then I completely agree, but if you have an operating role on the ship then you are by definition not a passenger. Now I presume that a ship/boat is seen as an equivalent of an aircraft, so therefore only nauts should be those that operate the aircraft in some way or another? If you have an operating role on the ship then you are a sailor, if you don’t then you are a passenger. I would offer that a RAF Station has more in common with a Royal Naval Base and Dockyard rather than a ship?

avioniker speak for yourself. There are plenty of baby Pterosaurs that are equally not in agreement with these suggestions. When this survey comes out then maybe it will be a surprise to all (one way or another). I see it like a referendum when often the most unexpected results upset the elite…

[Old-Duffer]

When the RAF was formed, one of the proposals for top brass ranks was something like: 1st , 2nd, 3rd Avion.
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer

[bunta130]

Was the old system broken? How many people have complained? If the answers are no, and very few, why change? Genuine question.

Tinkering with the non-essential removes effort available to tackle bigger issues.

[melmothtw]

Out of interest, does anyone actually refer to US Space Force personnel as 'Guardians'?

[Avionker]

When the RAF was formed, one of the proposals for top brass ranks was something like: 1st , 2nd, 3rd Avion.
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer

Surely your list should read Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator and Senior Aviator(Technician). Chief Technician and Warrant Officer require no amendment as they do not contain the word “men”.

As for Master Aviator surely Master Aircrew is more appropriate?

Only 3 ranks need amending, or perhaps only 2 if the current SAC(T) was changed to something more appropriate, something like Junior Technician perhaps, with a four bladed propeller as a rank badge.

[Avionker]

avioniker speak for yourself. There are plenty of baby Pterosaurs that are equally not in agreement with these suggestions. When this survey comes out then maybe it will be a surprise to all (one way or another). I see it like a referendum when often the most unexpected results upset the elite…

LJ

Perhaps you misunderstand my position on this matter, and that is, I don’t have one.

I served for 15 years and have been out for 22.

If the powers that be change the names of a few ranks it’s no skin off my nose.

Whether or not the change is required, or desired, is up to currently serving personnel to decide upon.

My opinion, along with all those who have previously served, is irrelevant.

[minigundiplomat]

I am no longer serving, so I guess my input is diminished somewhat, but I am not really surprised by anything the RAF leadership does these days. I wish all members of the RAF the best of luck, regardless of gender, orientation, colour or religion - even the white, straight minority.

However, as a taxpayer, I expect the leadership focus of the RAF to be warfighting and defence of the UK. Currently, I am not convinced this is the case.

[Vortex Hoop]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.
Typical patronising response... How on earth will this 'make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now'? This is just political posturing and rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship with poor cabins and conditions.

The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.

People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.

[ORAC]

Old-Duffer, the rank you are trying to remember is “Ardian”, but those were officer ranks.

The 1918-1919 non-commissioned ranks were: Warrant Officer Class I, Warrant Officer Class II, Flight Sergeant, Sergeant, Corporal and Air Mechanic, Private, Clerk and Boy as shown below.

The ranks below Corporal were amalgamated to SAC and LAC in 1919.

Mechanic, Clerk and Private are, of course, gender neutral - albeit having nothing to do with most modern roles.


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1001x606/image_b2f69be587078467e998f9ad921685c322f8a7ce.jpeg


WRAF ranks of the same period can be found in the link below.

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/272545-wraf-storewoman-rank/?do=findComment&comment=2770614

[trim it out]

Typical patronising response... How on earth will this 'make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now'? This is just political posturing and rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship with poor cabins and conditions.

The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.

People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.
Gen interested, what sort of topics are Associations currently holding the Govt to account on?

[Ninthace]

Ninthace Your sailor has a role in the operation of the ship? Where you say that everyone doesn’t steer the ship, then I completely agree, but if you have an operating role on the ship then you are by definition not a passenger. Now I presume that a ship/boat is seen as an equivalent of an aircraft, so therefore only nauts should be those that operate the aircraft in some way or another? If you have an operating role on the ship then you are a sailor, if you don’t then you are a passenger. I would offer that a RAF Station has more in common with a Royal Naval Base and Dockyard rather than a ship?…
I would disagree, The Station is the equivalent to the ship. The aircraft are the main weapon system, Try getting airborne, let alone carrying out a mission, without the help of sqn and stn staff. Having done time in both, 30 years in total, a posting to a Station has far more in common, ethos wise, to a posting to a Ship.

[Avionker]

Typical patronising response... How on earth will this 'make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now'? This is just political posturing and rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship with poor cabins and conditions.

The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc.

People like you would do well to consider our expertise before displaying such an arrogant attitude.

And you accuse others of arrogance?

[Jimlad1]

"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."

Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.

Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.

[Ninthace]

"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."

Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.

Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
My son served in the RAF for over 5 years and my daughter is married to a serving officer. There is much truth in what you say,

[Nil_Drift]

ORAC - you have just displayed Unconscious Bias and, no doubt, offended lots of people by showing in full that which relates to the males yet only offering a link to show what it is for females. That is sooo degrading and offensive.

I really can't believe that as a serving member of the RAF I have been so conditioned to spot and 'speak out' about such a terrible, shocking, hurtful and offensive thing! I must go to my 'Safe Space' and report you to the D&I people.

[Nil_Drift]

A couple of years ago a senior aviator on a front line sqn was given a dressing down for reminding people on the station that if they didn't fly then it was their job to get the aviators airborne.

It would appear that those more senior than the senior aviator on that station did not share his view!

[Corporal Clott]

Jimlad1

Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Not so. What I observe as someone serving is the stratification across the generations that are serving. It seems to be a divide between “Millenials” or “Gen Y”, that are roughly 29-42 years old, and the rest. That is very sweeping, but when you meet a lot of Service folks you start to gain that impression. This means that the “Boomers” (56-60), “Gen X” (42-56) and the new “Gen Z” (18-28) tend to get along - in fact it would appear that the younger Gen Z absolutely despise Gen Y (or Millenials). Now of course there are exceptions to this.

The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.

Fascinating stuff and ‘the top’ really needs to stop following the Twitterati Warrant Officers and listen to the brighter talent with greater potential beneath them…

[Nil_Drift]

Jimlad1 - I am still serving and I agree with the majority of posts here.

Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above; when we have sufficient personnel to fix and service aircraft so that aviators can maintain flying currency to try and increase their competence; when we have simulators which actually represent the aircraft being flown ... then we can perhaps look at changing NOTAM to NOTA and wingman to Air System Colleague variously tinker with the Queen's English to pacify activist-minded products of the current educational system.

I am asked if I am proud to be in the RAF. I have changed my answer in recent years, very sadly, to "No"!

[Sky Sports]

I always thought the gender neutral term was 'Crab'.

[Richard Dangle]

I am still serving

I am asked if I am proud to be in the RAF. I have changed my answer in recent years, very sadly, to "No"!

So you have continued serving for some years in an organisation you are not proud of?

Genuine question: why have you not left?

[The B Word]

Nil_Drift
Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above; when we have sufficient personnel to fix and service aircraft so that aviators can maintain flying currency to try and increase their competence; when we have simulators which actually represent the aircraft being flown ... then we can perhaps look at changing NOTAM to NOTA and wingman to Air System Colleague variously tinker with the Queen's English to pacify activist-minded products of the current educational system.

Spot on!!! :ok:

[The B Word]

So you have continued serving for some years in an organisation you are not proud of?

Genuine question: why have you not left?

Nothing is forever, so they are probably hoping for a better regime at the top in the future??? :confused:

[Nil_Drift]

Actually, it's far more fundamental than that. I'm now mercenary and counting the days to the pension ...

[Ninthace]

Actually, it's far more fundamental than that. I'm now mercenary and counting the days to the pension ...
I know the feeling. As a Stn exec I felt that Cmd contributed little or nothing to our operation other than serving to divert us from our primary task. When I got to Cmd nothing changed my mind, We reorganised, renamed, cheese pared and spent a lot of energy running the HQ. I sometimes felt if all the units disappeared, leaving just the HQ, the grown ups would barely notice. As a small cog in the large machine I felt sometimes, very occasionally, I improved things at Stn level but as a larger (yet still relatively small) cog I don't think I contributed to achieving even one extra sortie. The battles I fought with the bean counters sometimes achieved a small win but mostly it was trying to do the same with less. It was about then disillusionment set in.

[Easy Street]

What I observe as someone serving is the stratification across the generations that are serving. It seems to be a divide between “Millenials” or “Gen Y”, that are roughly 29-42 years old, and the rest. That is very sweeping, but when you meet a lot of Service folks you start to gain that impression. This means that the “Boomers” (56-60), “Gen X” (42-56) and the new “Gen Z” (18-28) tend to get along - in fact it would appear that the younger Gen Z absolutely despise Gen Y (or Millenials).

Still serving here. Someone will be along to dismiss your experience as anecdote, so I thought I'd just say that that's been exactly my experience as well. I've been fortunate enough to have a high proportion of Gen Zers working for me in my last two command/management roles, and I agree that they are surprisingly similar in outlook to Gen X. The memes are great and they even (whisper it) wouldn't have looked out of place in a 1990s RAF Germany happy hour with some of their boozing antics. It's funny how the wheel turns; I think part of it is that they've already been brought up and educated to have most of the values that Millenials agitate about, and they'd rather just get on with their jobs and enjoy their lives than try to take 'progress' to new extremes.

[downsizer]

Jimlad1



Not so. What I observe as someone serving is the stratification across the generations that are serving. It seems to be a divide between “Millenials” or “Gen Y”, that are roughly 29-42 years old, and the rest. That is very sweeping, but when you meet a lot of Service folks you start to gain that impression. This means that the “Boomers” (56-60), “Gen X” (42-56) and the new “Gen Z” (18-28) tend to get along - in fact it would appear that the younger Gen Z absolutely despise Gen Y (or Millenials). Now of course there are exceptions to this.

The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.

Fascinating stuff and ‘the top’ really needs to stop following the Twitterati Warrant Officers and listen to the brighter talent with greater potential beneath them…

This is probably the best post on here in years and pretty much sums it up. Particularly accurate comment reference twitter and its tweeters.

You lose points for deploying the phrase "read in" though.

[4everAD]

I take it that it there's no coincidence that this latest generation's parents are mainly Gen X (mainly due to people having children later)? I have to agree with previous posters, my younger Airmen (fat chance I'm calling them aviators) have no interest in this woke nonsense and remind me an awful lot of the younger and far more pickled 4everAD.

[Evalu8ter]

Cpl Clott. Outstanding and insightful post.

[Stitchbitch]

Aviator? Can this be applied retrospectively? Asking for a friend :E

[Tengah Type]

Will Airmen Aircrew now be Aviator Aviators?

Can we still have " Master Aviators" ( Master as in Principal), or do we need to change that because of the alternative meaning in the connotation of slavery?
Same goes for "Chief" and Native American sensibilities?

What's the grief about "Aviators" who do not fly? Lots of Pilot Officers and Flying Officers do neither.

[gwynorod]

Get with the beat man!! A few months ago I saw a Gp Capt doing his shopping in Tescos, but fair dos, he had his hat on.

[NutLoose]

Get with the beat man!! A few months ago I saw a Gp Capt doing his shopping in Tescos, but fair dos, he had his hat on.

Was that in the eggs aisle... fresh, poached, fried or scrambled?

[NutLoose]

I know the feeling. As a Stn exec I felt that Cmd contributed little or nothing to our operation other than serving to divert us from our primary task. When I got to Cmd nothing changed my mind, We reorganised, renamed, cheese pared and spent a lot of energy running the HQ. I sometimes felt if all the units disappeared, leaving just the HQ, the grown ups would barely notice. As a small cog in the large machine I felt sometimes, very occasionally, I improved things at Stn level but as a larger (yet still relatively small) cog I don't think I contributed to achieving even one extra sortie. The battles I fought with the bean counters sometimes achieved a small win but mostly it was trying to do the same with less. It was about then disillusionment set in.

But that is what you get, a lot of people generating ideas, changes and paperwork to give meaning to their lives and justify their existance.

Sir Harvey Jones when he did the troubleshooter series many. many moons ago visited such a company, he was shown around the works that was falling apart, had no money spent on the facilities for years and years where a workforce were struggling to produce the product and get it out of the door, next he was taken to the brand new office building, light, warm and up to date with all the latest gadgets, stopping at a desk he asked someone what they did and he said he generated paperwork that went to someone else that basically signed and filed it.. he pointed out that was why the company was failing, they were not spending where it needed to be and everyone in that office building were overheads that those producing the goods were paying for and they had lost touch with their product.

[Not_a_boffin]

What is going on at the top??
Sh1t is rolling downhill. As usual.

Or have I misunderstood the question?

[anson harris]

Once the system has resolved the problems of infrastructure and the basics of hot water and heating referred to above

I think those issues have been going on for long enough (at least since I joined the Services in the 90's) that we can probably accept that they are never going to be fixed. In the meantime, should we put on hold all progress towards a, for want of a better word, sustainable Armed Forces? And by that I mean a service that might actually exist in 30 years? Because given the Government's latest double talk about the latest personnel reductions/capability improvements (take your pick according to your newspaper of choice), I have a sneaking suspicion that the Armed Forces are going to struggle to attract any applicants at all before too long. Given the continued demand to outsource everything to Capita, I'm not particularly hopeful for positive change, Maybe, for once, an essentially cost free measure like this, which seeks to include all, might not be such a bad thing? Whether we like it or not, the Armed Forces need to adapt and move forward if they are to survive.

[The B Word]

anson harris
which seeks to include all

But it doesn’t, does it? They have chosen the masculine form of a noun that describes someone who flies or operates aircraft. So that excludes females and also excludes, and effectively ignores, any of the other professions in the RAF. What about the medics, the engineers, the gunners, the PTIs, the cartographers, the squippers, the clerks, the air traffickers, the musicians, the loggies, the police, the trainers, the chefs, the intelligence analysts et al? None of whom are either Aviators or Aviatrices, and this planned change of name effectively excludes them and ignores the vital roles they perform.

[vascodegama]

I can't see sutainability without even the basics .

[Corporal Clott]

Yes, Project HYDRO reported last year. https://www.raf-ff.org.uk/programme-hydro-recovery-of-heating-and-hot-water-across-the-air-estate/Key points

Programme HYDRO is a key Air Force Main Board priority, driven by the Deputy Commander Capability with progress to be reviewed monthly by our Chief of the Air Staff.
HYDRO will recover heating and hot water in 2 phases: short-term measures in the next 2 years to recover hot water quickly, and longer-term recapitalisation of our estate over 10 years.
HYDRO/1 will start immediately and be completed before Apr 22. It will be guided by an RAF estate ‘heat map’ and a ‘worst-first’ plan led by HQ Air.
HYDRO/1 will restart boiler maintenance, start water softening, purchase spares, lease/purchase temporary water heaters, fit external water connections, remove underground asbestos and be run by a dedicated team.
HYDRO/2 will recapitalise our complete estate, including underground district hot water systems, over the next 10 years and beyond. It will be a prime factor in the HQ Air strategic infrastructure plan, along with accommodation, new aircraft/equipment, runways and family support facilities.
HYDRO/2 will be led by an RAF airfield review that will identify the RAF’s long-term footprint and sequence for major works, which will include hot water systems.

I’m not seeing any improvement at my end of the telescope. In fact, if anything, personal experience would say it’s getting worse!!!

[anson harris]

anson harris


But it doesn’t, does it? They have chosen the masculine form of a noun that describes someone who flies or operates aircraft. So that excludes females and also excludes, and effectively ignores, any of the other professions in the RAF. What about the medics, the engineers, the gunners, the PTIs, the cartographers, the squippers, the clerks, the air traffickers, the musicians, the loggies, the police, the trainers, the chefs, the intelligence analysts et al? None of whom are either Aviators or Aviatrices, and this planned change of name effectively excludes them and ignores the vital roles they perform.

Fine, but they're not "airmen" either are they? Many are not men and most aren't air. It's an attempt at inclusivity, no matter how imperfect.

[Nil_Drift]

anson - it's usually a good idea to read through the whole of a thread to avoid going around in circles.

Read what Lima Juliet wrote in #66 - it gives you the reason why your contribution is a waste of space.

[anson harris]

anson - it's usually a good idea to read through the whole of a thread to avoid going around in circles.

Read what Lima Juliet wrote in #66 - it gives you the reason why your contribution is a waste of space.


I did read it. You seriously think that "airman" or "airmen" is a term that most people would look at and think "oh yes, that includes everyone" and particularly for a young woman wanting to join: "yes, that sounds like a modern organisation that would value my contribution"? You can think what you like of me, but the reality is that the Armed Forces must adapt, or wither on the vine. The sooner you accept that, the easier life will become.

[VMD+12]

Cpl Clott, Thank you for bringing Operation Hydro to our attention. I cannot believe that something like hot water and heating in service accommodation requires action by a 3* and regular intervention by CAS. How on earth was it allowed by those in charge well below that level to become such a problem or is this simply the manifestation of centralising budgets and responsibility rather than leaving them at local level where those who are more immediately aware of the problem could find local solutions if they had the resources.

Heating and hot water matter much more than what you are called, provided it is polite.

[Lima Juliet]

anson harris

I guess the question is, do you use words like human, woman, mansion, layman and mankind? All come from man meaning person or people. Of course you could go for what that loon Trudeau tried to do and make up words like “peoplekind”! But that didn’t go so well! :ugh:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/07/justin-trudeau-apologises-joke-personkind-viral

I think the bottom line is that Airman is not really offensive as a term, as isn’t human, layman, mansion, mankind or woman. So why bother to change it in the first place? You just define it as ‘the gender neutral term for that work in the Air Force” (which is how the USAF managed this), rather than the craziness of trying to reinvent things by using a word that already has meaning and a gender - Aviator.

Anyway, if you want a laugh, and fancy a bit of edgy comedy, then have a watch of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYCW73_3JHU

[The B Word]

Anson Harris:
You can think what you like of me, but the reality is that the Armed Forces must adapt, or wither on the vine.

Applications to the RAFRegular Forces in the 12 months to 31 December 2020 were 39,353, an increase of 23.0% compared to the 12 months to 31 December 2019 (31,992). Over the same period, applications to the Volunteer Reserves have increased by 31.8%, from 3,785 in the 12 months to 31 December 2019 to 4,990 in the 12 months to 31 December 2020. From: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-2021/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-1-april-2021#applications-to-the-armed-forces

I’m not seeing the withering that you’re predicting??

[EESDL]

So 'Airmen' is not offensive but 'Airhead' is............crazy world ;-)

[Corporal Clott]

A talk show seem to have made the RAF “Plank of the week” :hmm: Also, the ‘next generation’ young woman doesn’t seem very impressed with the suggested name change either!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suprNAiS6x8

[Flugplatz]

Since many on this forum are ex-military, shouldn't we be referring to Gen "X-ray", Gen "Yankee" and, dare I say it: Gen "Zulu"?

[longer ron]

The RCAF changed from 'Private' to 'Aviator' in 2014 because it is 'Gender Neutral' :)
S'Funny though - Aviator is derived from the French 'Aviateur' which is (M) Masculine LOL - Aviatrice was (F) Feminine
So really not sure how 'Aviator' can be described as 'Gender Neutral'.

[Krystal n chips]

Anson Harris:


From: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-2021/quarterly-service-personnel-statistics-1-april-2021#applications-to-the-armed-forces

I’m not seeing the withering that you’re predicting??

i would be a little cautious about those figures and using them as a basis to suggest recruitment is going well.

When the initial impact of the pandemic began to take effect, there were many predictions as to job losses in the future along with organisations furloughing personnel.

Historically, any form of economic downturn has always benefitted Armed Forces recruitment . This is not to suggest the RAF doesn't hold an attraction, it always will, but also, please bear in mind many of those joining no longer see doing so as a full career option. The view for many is that service in the RAF will be a contributor to a portfolio of career changes and options for them.

[muppetofthenorth]

A talk show seem to have made the RAF “Plank of the week” :hmm: Also, the ‘next generation’ young woman doesn’t seem very impressed with the suggested name change either!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suprNAiS6x8
An extremely right wing talk show...

[Avionker]

A talk show seem to have made the RAF “Plank of the week” :hmm: Also, the ‘next generation’ young woman doesn’t seem very impressed with the suggested name change either!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suprNAiS6x8


Anyone using that inane rubbish to support their argument is actually doing themselves a disservice…

[Avionker]

The RCAF changed from 'Private' to 'Aviator' in 2014 because it is 'Gender Neutral' :)
S'Funny though - Aviator is derived from the French 'Aviateur' which is (M) Masculine LOL - Aviatrice was (F) Feminine
So really not sure how 'Aviator' can be described as 'Gender Neutral'.

A retrograde step surely? How can Private be anything other than gender neutral?

[Vortex Hoop]

I did read it. You seriously think that "airman" or "airmen" is a term that most people would look at and think "oh yes, that includes everyone" and particularly for a young woman wanting to join: "yes, that sounds like a modern organisation that would value my contribution"? You can think what you like of me, but the reality is that the Armed Forces must adapt, or wither on the vine. The sooner you accept that, the easier life will become.
No. Not really. Any young woman too shallow and insecure to actively decide against joining the RAF coz they might be referred to as an Airman is not worth having.:rolleyes:

[Vortex Hoop]

Gen interested, what sort of topics are Associations currently holding the Govt to account on?
Off the top of my head: pensions, terms of service, and accommodation issues on stn.

[Vortex Hoop]

"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."

Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.

Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.
Your insecurity and faux embarrassment is not my problem. I only left 6 years ago and have mates who are on the front line, so it is not as if I am just swinging the lantern and talking only about the Cold War.

You are talking hoop and your presumptions have been shot to pieces by more than a few posters below you. If you are the Thin Pinstriped Line blogger, then the sinking feeling of constantly missing the mark and getting facts wrong should be familiar to you...


Learn from this.

[downsizer]

Off the top of my head: pensions, terms of service, and accommodation issues on stn.


You and I clearly have VERY different expectations of what being held to account means then!

[Jimlad1]

Your insecurity and faux embarrassment is not my problem. I only left 6 years ago and have mates who are on the front line, so it is not as if I am just swinging the lantern and talking only about the Cold War.

You are talking hoop and your presumptions have been shot to pieces by more than a few posters below you. If you are the Thin Pinstriped Line blogger, then the sinking feeling of constantly missing the mark and getting facts wrong should be familiar to you...


Learn from this.

The only thing I've learned from this is that scientists have discovered a new breed of dinosaur called "whatapompousarserex'.

Learn from this.,

[Marly Lite]

Your insecurity and faux embarrassment is not my problem. I only left 6 years ago and have mates who are on the front line, so it is not as if I am just swinging the lantern and talking only about the Cold War.

You are talking hoop and your presumptions have been shot to pieces by more than a few posters below you. If you are the Thin Pinstriped Line blogger, then the sinking feeling of constantly missing the mark and getting facts wrong should be familiar to you...


Learn from this.

WELL SAID Vortex Hoop!!!

Lets call Jimlad out for his ageist sentiments, oh, the young are so, so wise.

[Archimedes]

An extremely right wing talk show...

As an aside, one of the characters seen on-screen there (Mike Graham) was recently to be heard claiming that concrete can be grown naturally...

[Rigga]

so what happens to LAC or SAC? As that is still Aircraftsman

Surely they will end up as LA or SA - Leading or Senior Aviator?

Though I have some pity for the Acting Aviators!

[The B Word]

So will the Wokemeister be inviting Her Majesty to reissue all of the Commissioning Scrolls that legally enforce the powers granted by the Sovereign? It clearly states “Airman” and “Airwoman” on them all? In fact, I do wonder if Her Majesty was even consulted?

I do hope that we have offered this very basic of courtesies to ask the Commander in Chief of the UK Armed Forces. It would also seem that the depth of feeling in a recent internal survey has been totally ignored. This is very poor in my view as it would seem that any surveys are now null and void.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x287/image_97c4436a3935dd546173b1d9e19eec3614b27058.jpeg

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I’ve been told that CAS said today he disagrees with anyone that says aviator is the masculine form; aviatrix being the feminine form. Said that it’s like the word ‘actor’ is now being used to mean actress as well and that actress, as a word to identify gender, is slowly dying out.

[Friedlander]

So you've all filled in the survey on MODNET then? Because it affects you all?
What's the point? Most of the people around me received the link yesterday, after CAS had leaked the fact that the decision had already been made ... Master Aircrewman and Air Loadmaster will be reviewed later ... apparently.

[Corporal Clott]

Presumably he calls HM Queen Elizabeth ‘the King’ and HRH Princess Royal ‘the Prince’ then? What utter rot. :ugh:

Wrong in terms of gender to use ‘Aviator’ for all and wrong for it’s misuse against it’s meaning for someone who flies. Any fool knows that… or maybe not!

[Corporal Clott]

As for ‘Master Aircrewman’ it’s Master Aircrew - where ‘master’ is an adjective. If he thinks that then maybe he should hand back his MA Oxon and MA from KCL as they are obviously sexist and he doesn’t understand what an adjective is either!

Beggars belief!

[Two's in]

Ned Ludd is alive and well and is still admired by many on here. Who knew that change could be quite so scary....

[typerated]

" Find the enemy and shoot him down. Anything else is rubbish"!

Can't imagine Ricthofen gave a toss about any of this!

[Lima Juliet]

Ned Ludd is alive and well and is still admired by many on here. Who knew that change could be quite so scary....

What has a resistance to new technology got to do with it? Or are you proving how the misuse of a noun (in your case ‘Luddite’) can, and is, being used out of context?

[gcal]

Will this require SSAFA to change their title, I wonder ? :*

Soldiers Sailors and Air Force Association - Why would it need to be changed?

[beardy]

Corporal Clott (javascript:void(0)) , 2nd Dec 2021 23:23
Presumably he calls HM Queen Elizabeth ‘the King’ and HRH Princess Royal ‘the Prince’ then? What utter rot. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif


FYI Her Majesty is the Duke of Lancaster.

[cheekychimp]

Soldiers Sailors and Air Force Association - Why would it need to be changed?
Because it's the Soldiers, Sailors & Airmens Families Association

[Stitchbitch]

Soldiers Sailors and Air Force Association - Why would it need to be changed?

I'm sure the tri service 'Families Association' won't mind changing their name to get on trend..🤣

[longer ron]

Ned Ludd is alive and well and is still admired by many on here. Who knew that change could be quite so scary....

You do of course realise that 'Aviator' is also a (M) Male (ie not 'gender neutral') term so therefore the whole 'exercise' is an absolute waste of time and money.

[Asturias56]

"FYI Her Majesty is the Duke of Lancaster."

She is also "our Duke & Queen" in the Channel Islands

[MPN11]

"FYI Her Majesty is the Duke of Lancaster."

She is also "our Duke & Queen" in the Channel Islands
Indeed she is, and the Loyal Toast here is "La Reine, notre Duc"

[LOMCEVAK]

Does anyone else remember the wonderful TV series 'M*A*S*H' in which Cpl 'Radar' O'Reilly always referred to Maj Margaret 'Hotlips' Houlihan as 'Sir'? In today's world would that be praised for being inclusive (not that she ever showed signs of identifying as male!!!) or condemned for encouraging the use of an incorrect pronoun?

[Jackonicko]

I’ve been told that CAS said today he disagrees with anyone that says aviator is the masculine form; aviatrix being the feminine form. Said that it’s like the word ‘actor’ is now being used to mean actress as well and that actress, as a word to identify gender, is slowly dying out.

And he's right Aviator applies just as well to a female pilot as to a male one.

It does not, however, apply to someone who doesn't fly an aircraft (or crew it).

This is like calling a theatre usherette an 'actor', or a female NHS porter a surgeon. The gender of the term isn't an issue. The appropriateness and accuracy is.

[Lima Juliet]

I see that the Senior Service know what an Aviator is. Surely not a coincidence with this wording today? RIP Lt Gibb :(

https://twitter.com/RoyalNavy/status/1466784359529205773?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7 Ctwgr%5Etweet

Of course the Royal Navy and Army have Aviators and Aviatrices too!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

And he's right Aviator applies just as well to a female pilot as to a male one.

It does not, however, apply to someone who doesn't fly an aircraft (or crew it).

This is like calling a theatre usherette an 'actor', or a female NHS porter a surgeon. The gender of the term isn't an issue. The appropriateness and accuracy is.

With your logic, airmen applies just as well to female member of the RAF as it does for a male member. Language adapts and changes, I think it’s quite clear that this is the case for airmen. Additionally, it’s only the fact that people are lazy with their language that usher vs usherette is a thing.

[dadruid]

How about Air Folk and Flying Air Folk?

[MPN11]

When i was a pilot officer I wasn't one. :hmm:

I really wish the higher echelons of the RAF had something more constructive to do.

[gcal]

Some of the posts on here explain exactly why this is happening.

[flyingkeyboard]

As a serving 30-something millennial, who rarely goes near a mil aircraft, yet alone flies in one, being termed an 'aviator' doesn't bother me too much. I haven't worked in a light blue environment for 10+ years, and although I'd go as far as to say the name change is a tad clumsy, it won't impact how I approach my job or how I deal with those around me. I suspect that those who are getting riled up about this have in the main, either never served, or have already left the RAF.

Generally speaking, the things that matter are:

Are you professional?
Can you do your job well?
Can I get on with you?

Now that this appears to have been formally announced, I'd like CAS to move on sorting out some of the creaking infra that our people have to endure, as well as the numerous outdated policies that cause people to leave.

[Chugalug2]

Now that RAF Cabin Crew are aviators as well as being crewmembers, does that mean they are at last also aircrew, as per the MAA?

[Melchett01]

It doesn’t really matter what CAS, the Queen, some chap I met in the Mess last week called Bernard or anyone here thinks. It won’t fundamentally change the fact that the RAF is a creaking institution with not enough assets to do the jobs it needs to, a Manning and policy organisation that treats people with such disdain they’d rather leave than stay and if we’re being really honest, that we’d probably not last long in a fully fledged shooting match with our eggs / one basket basing strategy.

But it’s a useful distraction from the reality of the situation at the coal face and gives everyone something to work towards along with the managed decline of our infrastructure.

[Barksdale Boy]

Presumably everyone serving will now get aviation pay.

[vascodegama]

Jacko

According to my dictionary the female version of aviator is in use. Furthermore, no matter what CAS might think, there are actresses who do not like the use of the masculine noun to refer to them. I wonder how long it will be before a female Aviator complains about the use of said male term .

[STIG781]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.

Jimlad, the terms airman and airwoman aren't going anywhere, and make NO difference to peoples' lives either.

" there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" No Jimlad, you are an ignorant far-left racist. They are correct, discrimination in this sense doesn't exist. Airmen isn't a collective term for men and women you idiot, it refers to males only. Airwomen refers to females. Do you now see how stupid your comment about 20% of recruits being female really is, since the label doesn't apply to them?

A triggered woke lefty like you is also too thick to understand how nonsensical referring to RAF groundcrew as "aviators" really is.

"you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have"

Grow up you mental weakling, are you actually 42?

"but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now."

They have no business serving in a branch of the military if hurtful words are too much to handle. This simple terms airman and airwoman work find, meaning a change of them would be stupid.

[Avionker]

Jimlad, the terms airman and airwoman aren't going anywhere, and make NO difference to peoples' lives either.

" there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" No Jimlad, you are an ignorant far-left racist. They are correct, discrimination in this sense doesn't exist. Airmen isn't a collective term for men and women you idiot, it refers to males only. Airwomen refers to females. Do you now see how stupid your comment about 20% of recruits being female really is, since the label doesn't apply to them?

A triggered woke lefty like you is also too thick to understand how nonsensical referring to RAF groundcrew as "aviators" really is.

"you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have"

Grow up you mental weakling, are you actually 42?

"but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now."

They have no business serving in a branch of the military if hurtful words are too much to handle. This simple terms airman and airwoman work find, meaning a change of them would be stupid.

Would you like to add anything other than insults to the debate?

You are quite right of course, there is some growing up to be done around here. Not convinced you directed that remark in the correct direction though…

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Jimlad, the terms airman and airwoman aren't going anywhere, and make NO difference to peoples' lives either.

" there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" No Jimlad, you are an ignorant far-left racist. They are correct, discrimination in this sense doesn't exist. Airmen isn't a collective term for men and women you idiot, it refers to males only. Airwomen refers to females. Do you now see how stupid your comment about 20% of recruits being female really is, since the label doesn't apply to them?

A triggered woke lefty like you is also too thick to understand how nonsensical referring to RAF groundcrew as "aviators" really is.

"you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have"

Grow up you mental weakling, are you actually 42?

"but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now."

They have no business serving in a branch of the military if hurtful words are too much to handle. This simple terms airman and airwoman work find, meaning a change of them would be stupid.

Well said.

[Richard Dangle]

This simple terms airman and airwoman work find, meaning a change of them would be stupid.

oh the irony :p

[Tashengurt]

The CAS seems to have a similar management style to my current boss.
Lots of photo ops. Lots of pronouncements on diversity and wellbeing but very little engagement with fixing a collapsing organisation.

[bunta130]

The CAS seems to have a similar management style to my current boss.
Lots of photo ops. Lots of pronouncements on diversity and wellbeing but very little engagement with fixing a collapsing organisation.

That is truly sad....and, in my view, an utter failure of command. Once upon a time, people were the most important assets (oft said, never meant in reality - it's always been about kit).....the mantra is seemingly no longer repeated, but the outcomes remain the same.

[langleybaston]

It doesn’t really matter what CAS, the Queen, some chap I met in the Mess last week called Bernard or anyone here thinks. It won’t fundamentally change the fact that the RAF is a creaking institution with not enough assets to do the jobs it needs to, a Manning and policy organisation that treats people with such disdain they’d rather leave than stay and if we’re being really honest, that we’d probably not last long in a fully fledged shooting match with our eggs / one basket basing strategy.

But it’s a useful distraction from the reality of the situation at the coal face and gives everyone something to work towards along with the managed decline of our infrastructure.

I was nodding in complete agreement until I reached "managed". That implies policy. All that I observe [admittedly long-retired] is ill-directed expediency and knee-jerks.

[Stratnumberone]

That is truly sad....and, in my view, an utter failure of command. Once upon a time, people were the most important assets (oft said, never meant in reality - it's always been about kit).....the mantra is seemingly no longer repeated, but the outcomes remain the same.

it’s not about kit or capability any more. It’s about creating British jobs and not losing face (having poured billions down various black holes). Anyway, I’ll get myself back to the Herc OSD thread…

[megan]

NOTAM, you know what those letters mean? You're going to rejig the brain cells, at least in FAA land, it now means Notices To Air Missions.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1012x569/untitled_9dd678954ae43c322264683492d61f6bd7bcc052.png

When is GerMANy going to rename itself?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

When is GerMANy going to rename itself?

Have you established Germany’s preferred pronouns, or are you just making assumptions when you write ‘itself’?

[gcal]

"The people serving now have a 'champion' in the form of Veterans. We have a voice and can hold the government to account by using said voice through associations etc."

Having seen the attitudes on display here by 'veterans' I am genuinely embarrassed and ashamed to think that you feel your views reflect the modern military. Please don't presume to speak on behalf of it because your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Stop presuming that the system is the same now as it was when you were in - it isn't.

Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.

Well said.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Frankly there is nothing more cringeworthy than encountering retired veterans who assume that they a) know what is genuinely going on in the military today and b) that the modern military want them to 'fight their corner' because frankly they don't.

Are you still serving? In the RAF?

[alfred_the_great]

Are you still serving? In the RAF?
he’s in the RNR, and has mobilised several times to HERRICK, TELIC and KIPION.

[langleybaston]

the contributor wrote:

your values, standards and conduct are woefully out of line with those serving.

Ah yes, but higher or lower?

[Avionker]

NOTAM, you know what those letters mean? You're going to rejig the brain cells, at least in FAA land, it now means Notices To Air Missions.


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1012x569/untitled_9dd678954ae43c322264683492d61f6bd7bcc052.png

When is GerMANy going to rename itself?

Why on earth would Deutschland want to rename itself? Perhaps Anglophones may wish to change their terminology.

[Lima Juliet]

Yup, going to have to rename the following places as the contain the word “man” (which derives from the word for people!):

Germany
Cayman Islands
Romania
Isle of Man
Oman
Manchester
Godmanchester
Mansfield
Manhatten
Manitoba

I’m sure that there are more… :hmm:

PS. Are we renaming the noun woman too?

[Krystal n chips]

Changing the rank to Mistress Aircrew may induce some confusion as to her role...

[MPN11]

PS. Are we renaming the noun woman too?

Woeman might be more apt.

[ExAscoteer2]

The 1950's called. Apparently they want their sexists back.

[Willard Whyte]

Star Trek had it correct, in as much as all senior officers, whether with XX or XY chromosomes*, were called 'Sir'.

*aware there were non-terran SOs who probably didn't have such things. But they were called sir too.

[J.A.F.O.]

Yup, going to have to rename the following places as the contain the word “man” (which derives from the word for people!):

Germany
Cayman Islands
Romania
Isle of Man
Oman
Manchester
Godmanchester
Mansfield
Manhatten
Manitoba

I’m sure that there are more… :hmm:

Actually, there are less as they are not derived from the word for people.

[alfred_the_great]

Star Trek had it correct, in as much as all senior officers, whether with XX or XY chromosomes*, were called 'Sir'.

*aware there were non-terran SOs who probably didn't have such things. But they were called sir too.

much easier solution - call everyone Senior to you ma’am, regardless of chromosomal status.

[ZH875]

As the officer class represent the authority of the Monarch, calling everyone 'Ma'am' is not a bad idea. Then just change it to 'Sir' when Her Majesty leaves her post and PoW takes over. Change as the incumbent changes sides.

[London Eye]

And for those opposed to the change to Aviator on the basis that it is 'woke' and unnecessary then perhaps you could lobby for the use the collective noun 'airwoman/airwomen' for the next 103 years and then turn about again to airman/airmen?

This would satisfy the etymologists as it contains 'man' AND 'woman' and, surely, anyone objecting to the proposal is just being... woke! :p

[longer ron]

Not sure how many people are opposed to a change of title per se - perhaps more that the new title is inappropriate and well - 'Naff'.
As I mentioned previously - the RCAF changed from 'Private' to 'Aviator' in 2014 for similar reasons and yet 'private' was a gender neutral term already ????

Try to improve all that is seriously wrong/substandard with the RAF = Too Difficult

Spend lots of money changing a title which might offend 1% of members of the RAF and at the same time filling in the 'inclusive'/'diversity' Box = Tick

[Heston]

Actually, there are less as they are not derived from the word for people.
It's fewer, not less;)

Since I don't fly missions, being retired and flying only for fun, can I now ignore NOTAMS?

[J.A.F.O.]

It's fewer, not less;)

Thank you Heston, you are, of course, quite correct.

[4everAD]

So its a done deal, announced in an IBN dated 07 Dec with immediate effect we're all to be known as Aviators. That's nice when you consider the survey asking for people's views is still open, its almost like they don't care what we think and we're going to do it anyway.

[downsizer]

So its a done deal, announced in an IBN dated 07 Dec with immediate effect we're all to be known as Aviators. That's nice when you consider the survey asking for people's views is still open, its almost like they don't care what we think and we're going to do it anyway.

Do you care though? I don't. And a quick straw poll of the 20 or so people in work this morning suggests they don't either. I have much bigger issues than this.

[Stratnumberone]

I have much bigger issues than this.

Isn’t that a large part of the problem here? The entire RAF has much bigger issues than this… shouldn’t upper leadership be focussing attention elsewhere?

[Corporal Clott]

Yes, there are bigger issues, but tolerating stuff like this name change, and ignoring the feelings of the majority, is corrosive to the main. You only have to look at the AFCAS to see it, and ignoring the survey as it was a “done deal”, to appease an unrepresentative and minuscule minority, will only make it worse. https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/armed-forces-continuous-attitude-survey-2021

Headlines from the 2021 AFCAS
24% of the RAF think that change is managed well in the Service. Ie. 76% think it is bad!
17% of the RAF thought that morale was high, and 29% thought it was low. Ie. 83% think it’s ‘meh!’ or bad.
77% of the RAF thought their immediate superior understood and represents their interests. Ie. Immediate leadership is good.
29% of the RAF thought that their senior leadership (1-star and above) understood and represented their interests. Ie. 71% think that 1-star and above are disconnected from what they want.
42% of the RAF had confidence in their senior leadership (1-star and above). Ie. 58% have no confidence!
46% of the RAF felt valued by their Service. Ie. 54% don’t feel valued.
29% of the RAF plan to stay as long as they can. Ie. 71% are planning to leave as soon as they reasonably can!
55% of the RAF intend to leave at their next end of engagement, or stay until the end of it. Ie. 55% plan to leave without disadvantaging themselves.
3.7% of the RAF thought they felt discriminated against on the grounds of gender. Ie. Around 1,000 RAF Personnel of ~31,750.
1.2% of the RAF felt they were harassed on the grounds of gender. Ie. Around 380 RAF Personnel of ~31,750.
51% of the RAF are satisfied with their Service Families’ Accommodation. Ie. 49% are dissatisfied with their married quarters.
45% of the RAF are satisfied with their Single Living Accommodation. Ie. 55% are dissatisfied with their mess accomodation.

So what does that tell me? That personnel feel disconnected from their senior leadership (and it’s not surprising why) and people are more concerned about the poor state of their accommodation than they are about serious gender diversity and inclusion issues. It’s not just a 2021 thing either, but the WO and Senior Officer ‘Sycophant Twitterati’ that they seem to be listening to, do not represent the main stream views of the majority work force. We ignore that majority at our peril, if the rumoured 75%+ didn’t agree with the recent name change, this can only lead to higher dissatisfaction. It is also something that won’t be fixed by a single action, but any marginal gains are quickly eroded by a death by a thousand cuts!

Of the two dozen female colleagues that I have asked about the Aviator/Aviatrix, very few gave two hoots about the supposed gender issue raised by the legacy terms. However, 100% have said “My role is not an aviator, and I am a ********” (where ******** is any other Branch or Trade that does not involve flying). So really this seems to be a catastrophic fail all around from the opinions I hear about in the workspace.

If it was a lead on IOT then I suspect it would be a reshow!

[Fortissimo]

Cpl Clott, this is not how surveys work. For example: 45% of the RAF are satisfied with their Single Living Accommodation. Ie. 55% are dissatisfied with their mess accomodation.

You can't use the headline figure to conclude that 55% are dissatisfied, however tempting that might be, because the AFCAS questionnaire, like many surveys, uses normative questions. So whilst 45% are satisfied, what you won't know is how many are 'neither satisfied nor dissatisfied'. It could well be that 55% are incandescent about the state of their mess accommodation, but it could also be that 30% are ambivalent, so only 25% are actually dissatisfied. You need the detailed breakdown to avoid drawing false conclusions.

You could be right in all that you say but based on the stats alone you might also be wrong - 50% confidence in achieving (eg) a delivery date can be interpreted as either yes or no, depending on how optimistic you are.

[cynicalint]

You could be right in all that you say but based on the stats alone you might also be wrong -.
You are quite right. stats show that the majority of the british public have an above average number of legs.
Easy. Not many people have 3 legs
Quite a few have one leg while many more have half a leg or just two thighs.
Therefore, the average number of legs per person in somwhere above 0 and less than 2. i.e. 1.(n) .
Consequently those with 2 legs have an above average number of legs per person than the national average.

Stats can prove anything you want.

[Ninthace]

You are quite right. stats show that the majority of the british public have an above average number of legs.
Easy. Not many people have 3 legs
Quite a few have one leg while many more have half a leg or just two thighs.
Therefore, the average number of legs per person in somwhere above 0 and less than 2. i.e. 1.(n) .
Consequently those with 2 legs have an above average number of legs per person than the national average.

Stats can prove anything you want.
You we’re correct up to the last sentence. Not anything you want, use stats to prove most people have 3 legs for example

[cynicalint]

use stats to prove most people have 3 legs for example
Touche! that skill is taught after winning a Parliamentary election!
Just another statistic for you, "The further north one goes, the average Puffin gains an average of 1 oz gain in weight. which is why there are no puffins at the pole or the equator, They are either then too big or small to survive. Conversely, the further south one goes...loses 1oz...."

Puffins by the way, are aviators; Emus are not. Both avian creatures, though I dare not use the term - bird!
Perhaps we could use the term Avian instead of Aviator, both associated with flight, but not all capable of it.

[Ninthace]

Touche! that skill is taught after winning a Parliamentary election!
Just another statistic for you, "The further north one goes, the average Puffin gains an average of 1 oz gain in weight. which is why there are no puffins at the pole or the equator, They are either then too big or small to survive. Conversely, the further south one goes...loses 1oz...."

Puffins by the way, are aviators; Emus are not. Both avian creatures, though I dare not use the term - bird!
Perhaps we could use the term Avian instead of Aviator, both associated with flight, but not all capable of it.
You will also find the Norwegian birth rate used to peak when the migrating storks arrived, and for all I know, it still does. Statistics are misused on a daily basis but that should not be used to discredit that particular branch of maths, rather it should make us want to learn more so we are not so easily deceived..

[Stratnumberone]

You will also find the Norwegian birth rate used to peak when the migrating storks arrived, and for all I know, it still does. Statistics are misused on a daily basis but that should not be used to discredit that particular branch of maths, rather it should make us want to learn more so we are not so easily deceived..

regardless of the weights of puffins, storks or Norwegians, I’m surprised that as many as 45% are happy with their single accommodation!

[Ninthace]

regardless of the weights of puffins, storks or Norwegians, I’m surprised that as many as 45% are happy with their single accommodation!
Rather depends on what they are used to at home! Having your own space counts for a lot.

[Corporal Clott]

Fortissimo
I guess it depends if you think ‘neutral’ is satisfied or not. I tend to look for positive indicators to say when someone is satisfied :ok: Anyway, the level of detail you want is in those stats, but just for the examples you want, here you go (original in quotes):

51% of the RAF are satisfied with their Service Families’ Accommodation. Ie. 49% are dissatisfied with their married quarters.
45% of the RAF are satisfied with their Single Living Accommodation. Ie. 55% are dissatisfied with their mess accomodation.

Of the 49% I said that were dissatisfied with their quarters, then 33% were totally dissatisfied and 15% were “meh!” or neutral (note there is a 1% rounding error in the figures). As for the Messes, then 39% were totally dissatisfied and 17% were “meh!”. I still think that is poor and something for our senior leadership to be utterly ashamed of. I have had people that work with me (their entire family in the quarter too!) that have had lung infections from the mould in their quarters and others in their mess room - one even had to throw their shoes away as they had gone mouldy! Right now CHOM has no heating and won’t do until next year.

That sort of carp is why people leave, not because of some virtue signalling name change.

[langleybaston]

You are quite right. stats show that the majority of the british public have an above average number of legs.
Easy. Not many people have 3 legs
Quite a few have one leg while many more have half a leg or just two thighs.
Therefore, the average number of legs per person in somwhere above 0 and less than 2. i.e. 1.(n) .
Consequently those with 2 legs have an above average number of legs per person than the national average.

Stats can prove anything you want.
Did you miss all the three legged people? They are the ones that make the average tend back towards two!

Joking aside, there are three [actually more] ways of finding a characteristic of a statistical population. I suggest "mode" is a good fit for the legs research. Your folk with fewer than two legs and my three-legged Manxmen would be seen to be a very insignificant contribution.

[cynicalint]

Did you miss all the three legged people? .
second line old chum!!

[langleybaston]

Cut me off at the knees and call me TRIPOD!

[cynicalint]

SoS Defence piles in:-
Armed forces to get new guidance on how to use 'inclusive language'
The new guide includes more inclusive ways to address disability, race, gender, age, religion, sexual orientation and social mobility
ByDominic Nicholls, DEFENCE AND SECURITY EDITOR12 December 2021 • 4:16pm

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin pictured in April CREDIT: PA
The armed forces are to be given new guidance on “inclusive language” after the Defence Secretary said he is “unhappy” with the current advice.
Military personnel from all three services had been told to avoid using phrases such as "crippled with debt" or "blind drunk".
The MoD said its Inclusive Language Guide 2021 was a “practical toolkit” to help servicemen and women understand why “certain words or use of language is hurtful or non-inclusive”.
A senior defence source told the Telegraph: "The Defence Secretary and Chief of the Defence Staff (CDS) have been clear that the UK armed forces must modernise to tackle the threats of the future. That includes our approach to our people who are critical to that task.
“The Defence Secretary is unhappy with the current approach set out in the guide. A revised version will be published in the coming weeks."
The guide will be taken down from the MoD website while changes are made.
The guide, produced by the MoD's Diversity and Inclusion Directorate, denies being "an attempt to police language" or "restrict your personal style of communication", but was created to help staff "speak more powerfully, precisely and respectfully", according to the Mail on Sunday.
It recommended avoiding phrases such as "deaf to our pleas" in case it offended the disabled.
The 30-page pamphlet said the words "woman" and "female" “mean different things but are often used interchangeably”, adding: “Referring to women as females is perceived by many as reducing a woman to her reproductive parts and abilities.
“Not all women are biologically female, and the conflation of ‘female’ to ‘woman’ erases gender nonconforming people and members of the trans community.”
“The women in the platoon” is said to be a more inclusive phrase than “the females in the platoon”.
The guide includes more inclusive ways to address disability, race, gender, age, religion, sexual orientation and social mobility. The MoD wants personnel to put the “person first”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/12/12/armed-forces-get-new-guidance-use-inclusive-language/

For those who can't see the text in the telegraph, the article is above.
It would seem the SoS defence is not happy with the guidance. Does that mean it does not go far enough, or does it go too far? My reading is that it goes too far. Is it at odds with CAS and aviator?

[Lima Juliet]

Sounds like this top bit of comedy…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBGOryiqZZI

[Vortex Hoop]

much easier solution - call everyone Senior to you ma’am, regardless of chromosomal status.
That logic doesn't scan, seeing as the sheer majority of personnel are male. Calling the women sir makes more sense - they can be honorary men while serving.

[Vortex Hoop]

The 1950's called. Apparently they want their sexists back.
Arbitrary references to the Gregorian calendar do not an argument make. Please take your sad mewling about sexism elsewhere love!

[Vortex Hoop]

he’s in the RNR, and has mobilised several times to HERRICK, TELIC and KIPION.
So have I...with the RAF (not as a reservist!)...at the height of each campaign. Yet as I am a recent Service Leaver he feels empowered to denigrate me and my opinions on how the RAF should be run. Opinions which are held by the majority of the RAF and on here.

As I said to him earlier. He has been given short shrift here and should refrain from telling us what to think. His sad handbag-swinging about 'values and standards' belong in the bin, along with his trite (and often wrong) Thin Pinstriped Line Blog, where he pontificates about military matters based on his experience as a civil servant. Ha ha ha.

[Cornish Jack]

Changing the rank to Mistress Aircrew may induce some confusion as to her role...
When the first female 'loadies' were introduced at Dishforth in the 60s, the (till then) all-male Mess were warned to moderate their language (decent people did that in those days !) Unfortunately, one of the regular Bridge 'school' was one 'Captain Jack' - (M Plt Jack Huntingdon) a brilliant aviator but not noted for 'vicar's tea party' turns of phrase. We all did our best but ultimately Nature overruled Nurture and the following was offered in rich, loud Yorkshire bellow ... "Damn it, you ****, you've trumped t;' ******* ace !

[minigundiplomat]

Can I still refer to a multi tool as a Leatherman, or is it now a Wigston?

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Can I still refer to a multi tool as a Leatherman, or is it now a Wigston?

You’re being too polite!

[Easy Street]

His sad handbag-swinging about 'values and standards' belong in the bin, along with his trite (and often wrong) Thin Pinstriped Line Blog, where he pontificates about military matters based on his experience as a civil servant. Ha ha ha.
He got into a very testy Twitter exchange with Greg Bagwell this weekend just gone over his latest adulatory blog on CSG21, in which pretty much his only mention of the RAF contribution was a cheap (and inaccurate ;)) shot about wanting to imitate submariners with the F35 accident. Having got all uppity and defensive in response to Baggers' criticism, he then edited the blog to be somewhat less partisan, resulting in Baggers getting a load of stick from people who'd only seen the edited version. As ever it pays to be aware of the personal baggage of an opinion writer, something made difficult when they operate only under a pseudonym.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

He got into a very testy Twitter exchange with Greg Bagwell this weekend just gone over his latest adulatory blog on CSG21, in which pretty much his only mention of the RAF contribution was a cheap (and inaccurate ;)) shot about wanting to imitate submariners with the F35 accident. Having got all uppity and defensive in response to Baggers' criticism, he then edited the blog to be somewhat less partisan, resulting in Baggers getting a load of stick from people who'd only seen the edited version. As ever it pays to be aware of the personal baggage of an opinion writer, something made difficult when they operate only under a pseudonym.

Who did that, Easy Street?

[Easy Street]

Who did that, Easy Street?

The writer of the Pinstriped Line blog, aka Sir Humphrey (I was carrying on the 'his' from the text by Vortex Hoop, quoted at the top of my post). Twitter handle is @pinstripedline if you are looking him up.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

The writer of the Pinstriped Line blog, aka Sir Humphrey (I was carrying on the 'his' from the text by Vortex Hoop, quoted at the top of my post). Twitter handle is @pinstripedline if you are looking him up.

I’ll have to take a look. Baggers was always a bit of dude. I assume Sir Humphrey doesn’t seem to think so.

[PaulH1]

So let me get this right...... An Aviator is involved in a war. He, sorry they, come face to face with the enemy who is about to shoot them. They can therefore shoot and kill the enemy, but must be very careful in what they say or shout.... just in case they offend them as they are dying? Really!!!!!

[The B Word]

The SofS may wish to withdraw it, but once it’s on t’internet then you instantly lose control of it. Plenty of examples of the poorly staffed document if people look for them: https://www.scribd.com/document/530589852/20210928-Inclusive-Language-Guidance-v1-O

Looking forward to see what V2.0 looks like!

[Mogwi]

So let me get this right...... An Aviator is involved in a war. He, sorry they, come face to face with the enemy who is about to shoot them. They can therefore shoot and kill the enemy, but must be very careful in what they say or shout.... just in case they offend them as they are dying? Really!!!!!

If you haven’t been there, do not try to imagine how it feels or what you might exclaim.

Mog out.

[vortexadminman]

"back in the day", Airmen made sense. Society has changed - 1 in 5 of the RAF is not male, so airmen seems inaccurate and innapropriate.

As usual the "of course there's no such thing as discrimination (mainly because I'm a middle class white male)" brigade are out in force getting worked up about a change that makes no impact or difference to their lives, but may make a meaningful difference to those who are serving now.

To those who say "but standards and in my day" - firstly, the operative phrase is 'your day' - that was then, this is now. Thank you for your service, but let those who are serving now express a view on what they want - your views are an irrelevance. Secondly, the RAF is always changing and has done since it was formed. The RAF you served in was so different to the one you joined, the one you learned about as a kid, and the one you left as to be a never permanent organisation - don't assume that because things were done a certain way once, that this continues to make sense.

Finally, you may wish to reflect on the impact your words have - you may want to get all angry and hit the keyboard moaning about snowflakes and diversity and how it was better when you were in - but please remember that in moaning, you are directly attacking the people who serve now. I personally think they deserve more respect than being insulted by yesterdays men who are unhappy with the idea of a very simple change.


I completely get that, but I always considered we are all human ( perhaps we shouldn't be called that anymore!!!). If the term is airman for a a male or airwoman for a female means just that , it just says the sex of the person. If they want to identify as something in-between fair enough but why deny service people who do identify as an airman or airwoman their own say how they are rated.

[cynicalint]

Looking forward to see what V2.0 looks like!
Agree fully! My impression is that it has set off with good intentions, but is trying to legislate or provide guidance for every human interaction there could be. Many of the 'inclusive terms' are a synonym for the 'less inclusive term' or four words to say exactly the same as one word conveys. Some of their observations appear to be plain wrong, innacurate and offensive in themselves to one party or another.
That it took a directorate to produce that document is astonishing, and shines a light on the 'Grown-Up' thinking in the MoD.
Any word can be offensive or non-inclusive if the user decides it to be, and vice-verca.
To quote Lewis Carroll “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
V2.0 will, indeed, be interesting.

[Nil_Drift]

I must admit that it has been quite novel to write my work emails with deliberate "on message" expressions. Those who know me will see the transformation but nobody has said anything about it. Perhaps they daren't in case they think that I'd be offended. Or if they mocked my new-found vocabulary, their response might become part of an email chain where a real disciple of ASTRA might see it ... then they'll be sorry, and I will get away with being the PC warrior, even though I'm not. I'm toying with the system and with the minds of fellow aviators, and I'll wait and see who gives up first. Perhaps the novelty will wear off.

[Easy Street]

I find it noteworthy that SofS has taken interest in this publication. Together with things like the widespread adoption of Stonewall guidance on transgender matters across the public sector, and recent reversals at ministerial behest, it does rather suggest that unelected officials (maybe including uniformed ones!) have been taking such matters further than our elected representatives are comfortable with. The question of whether public services should lead, match, follow, or ignore changes in wider society is inherently a political one, and language which a senior civil servant in London might consider a new societal norm could well appear to others as unwelcome social engineering, so it is absolutely right for politicians to call the shots on these issues.

On a related note, I can't imagine SofS includes "he/him" in his email signature block, so it'd also be interesting to see if he takes a view on the fact that some leaders in his department continue to mandate strongly encourage the use of personal pronouns, having uncritically accepted the Stonewall guidance now in retreat elsewhere...

[BEagle]

The one aspect of this whole inclusiv-speak bolleaux which particular irks me is the use of a plural pronoun for a singular issue. I was reading an infringement report which kept describing what 'they' had or hadn't done correctly and it was only when looking further that I saw that the aircraft was being flown solo. Which put an entirely different complexion on the whole incident.

There was an item on TV (television) recently in which some androgynous American couple announce that they didn't have a baby - it was a 'theyby'....:rolleyes:

[PaulH1]

If you haven’t been there, do not try to imagine how it feels or what you might exclaim.

Mog out.

I have been there. Hence the comment!

[beardy]

The one aspect of this whole inclusiv-speak bolleaux which particular irks me is the use of a plural pronoun for a singular issue. I was reading an infringement report which kept describing what 'they' had or hadn't done correctly and it was only when looking further that I saw that the aircraft was being flown solo. Which put an entirely different complexion on the whole incident.

There was an item on TV (television) recently in which some androgynous American couple announce that they didn't have a baby - it was a 'theyby'....:rolleyes:

The gender specific pronoun in this case would be irrelevant to the situation being described and if incorrect attribution were made could be embarrassing to the author (and perhaps the subject!) it also avoids avoids using "he/she" which is cumbersome.

Consider:
'Each pilot submitted their report to the committee. ( their is plural)
not
Each pilot submitted his or her report to the committee.'

Fortunately neither English grammar nor vocabulary is ossified.

[BEagle]

Quite so, beardy. Avoiding the use of pronouns and writing in a manner which would render them superfluous would have been preferable.

[London Eye]

Most people instinctively use 'they' routinely in the singular sense in situations where they are unaware of the gender of the subject: "somebody stole my car but THEY were never caught" or "somebody dropped a tenner on the path, I bet THEY regretted that when THEY realised". So perhaps 'they' is a better way to describe an individual who is unsure of their own gender? I make this point out of either wokeness or kindness depending upon your view!

[Krystal n chips]

It's amusing really to read the ire about the semantics of the English language, which, like society, is constantly evolving some of you will be shocked to learn.

However, today's Guardian has kindly provided a solution.

From now on you simply address each other as soldier...no gender confusion involved !

See caption under the photo " RAF soldier "

NHS gears up for ‘huge challenge’ to hit PM’s new booster jab target | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/13/nhs-gears-up-for-huge-challenge-to-hit-pms-new-booster-jab-target-omicron-covid)

[beardy]

Quite so, beardy. Avoiding the use of pronouns and writing in a manner which would render them superfluous would have been preferable.
The trouble with avoiding something like that is that what comes out can sound contrived, convoluted, formal and a bit pompous. It's so difficult to avoid. There is a fine dividing line between giving offence and taking offence whilst still achieving effective communication. On a personal level I only take offence when deliberately insulted.

[Recc]

The one aspect of this whole inclusiv-speak bolleaux which particular irks me is the use of a plural pronoun for a singular issue. I was reading an infringement report which kept describing what 'they' had or hadn't done correctly and it was only when looking further that I saw that the aircraft was being flown solo. Which put an entirely different complexion on the whole incident.

Dost thou make sure to avoid the singular 'you' as well?
I must admit that I find the singular 'they' a bit irritating, but apparently there are examples in literature back to the 14th century. Maybe after a few more hundred years it will cease to grate!

[beardy]

Dost thou make sure to avoid the singular 'you' as well?
I must admit that I find the singular 'they' a bit irritating, but apparently there are examples in literature back to the 14th century. Maybe after a few more hundred years it will cease to grate!
Thou theese them as theese thou first. As in tu and vous

[langleybaston]

Thou theese them as theese thou first. As in tu and vous
Is there a verb to theese?
I only have an A level in English Grammar and English Lit.
My similar Physics, Pure Maths and Applied Maths no help either.

Waiter! Another large Asbach please. And a beer for the hound.

[beardy]

Is there a verb to theese?

Aye, there is, but it is to 'thee' ie to call someone thee (the familiar form of the formal thou) and was used to economise on the word count by my wife's grandfather, a rather bluff man, to reprimand an over familiar farm hand.

A bit like Shakespeare really turning nouns into verbs and generally playing with and expanding our language

[RAFEngO74to09]

Now MOD has a "Welsh Language Champion" Welsh Language Champion appointed as Defence updates the Welsh Language Scheme. Penodi Pencampwr y Gymraeg wrth i’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ddiweddaru ei Chynllun Iaith Gymraeg - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/welsh-language-champion-appointed-as-defence-updates-the-welsh-language-scheme-penodi-pencampwr-y-gymraeg-wrth-ir-weinyddiaeth-amddiffyn-ddiweddaru))

[tucumseh]

Now MOD has a "Welsh Language Champion" Welsh Language Champion appointed as Defence updates the Welsh Language Scheme. Penodi Pencampwr y Gymraeg wrth i’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ddiweddaru ei Chynllun Iaith Gymraeg - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

I think this a good idea, given the RAF presence on Anglesey and, for example, last week's Inquest in Caernarfon where the Coroner was happily bi-lingual. Many moons ago our appointee at Ferranti Radar often lapsed into Scots Gaelic, especially if asked awkward questions, and potential project managers were always asked if they spoke the lingo. But the real problem was when they fielded someone from Fife. One can learn Gaelic.

[alfred_the_great]

Eh!

amd this is for 10 characters.

[melmothtw]

Now MOD has a "Welsh Language Champion" Welsh Language Champion appointed as Defence updates the Welsh Language Scheme. Penodi Pencampwr y Gymraeg wrth i’r Weinyddiaeth Amddiffyn ddiweddaru ei Chynllun Iaith Gymraeg - GOV.UK ( (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/welsh-language-champion-appointed-as-defence-updates-the-welsh-language-scheme-penodi-pencampwr-y-gymraeg-wrth-ir-weinyddiaeth-amddiffyn-ddiweddaru)www.gov.uk)

Absolutely a good idea. Not only is the RAF located at Valley and other places in Wales, but there are many Welsh speaking servicemen and women in the RAF and wider armed forces. Indeed, in Bosnia the Welsh language was used as a means to secure comms from Serbs who were listening in.

[622]

Absolutely a good idea. Not only is the RAF located at Valley and other places in Wales, but there are many Welsh speaking servicemen and women in the RAF and wider armed forces. Indeed, in Bosnia the Welsh language was used as a means to secure comms from Serbs who were listening in.
...I believe its still used in certain Welsh pubs against the odd English tourist!

[trim it out]

Indeed, in Bosnia the Welsh language was used as a means to secure comms from Serbs who were listening in.
The Serbs cracked BATCO?

[BATCO]

The Serbs cracked BATCO?

Held at gunpoint, conditioned by cold, and robbed, but I didn't crack,

Batco
:ok:

[langleybaston]

...I believe its still used in certain Welsh pubs against the odd English tourist!

Very easy for the English to be paranoid. As in:

"I went into a pub in Caernarfon and, before I could speak a word, all the locals started talking in Welsh!"

[BEagle]

On my Gnat course, one of our number went into a shop in Llangefni, whereupon the locals started sniggering and talking to each other in Druid-speak, very obviously about him.

Big mistake. HUGE. Our chap was a native Welshman and shall we say, gave them a one-way debrief.

[SLXOwft]

Meanwhile in the land of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité where "In early May, France’s education minister, Jean-Michel Blanquer, announced a ban on the use in schools of an increasingly common—and contested—writing method designed to make the French language more gender-inclusive."
France resists US challenge to its values (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59584125)

Mind you language is a slippery beast and changes constantly, trying to control it in either direction is a demonstration of foolish bigotry. I was brought up to stand by 'sticks and stones ...' and not react. As (mis)attributed to Confucius 'He/she/it who takes offence when none is intended is a fool. He/she/it who takes offence when offence is intended is a bigger fool.':}

Quoting Beowulf out of context in the original gendered English:
'Him se yldesta andswarode,
werodes wisa, wordhord onleac:'

I remain Sadam, your (dis)obedient servant,
SLXOwft (guess/keep guessing)

[Corporal Clott]

I like this meme doing the rounds on WhatsApp, similar to that of minigundiplomat at post #213. Made me laugh out loud!

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1860x2000/bc590a15_82d0_4025_b997_96591aaafa21_5db294edc791e8fd5e1d147 69864c7b37ed688b1.jpeg

[Bob Viking]

It never ceases to amaze me how that particular urban myth pervades.

I’m an Englishman through and through but I’m married to a (North) Welsh Girl.

Since I have spent many happy years in the company of her and her family I can tell you quite categorically that their speaking Welsh is not for the benefit of English tourists. It is their language. It should come as no more of a surprise than Frenchmen speaking French or Germans speaking German.

Honestly I sometimes whince at the crap that my (English) countrymen come out with.

BV

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Bob

It's not an "urban myth" if people on this forum have witnessed it happening. I have, and so too have others. Maybe you should be less quick to judge "the crap" your fellow countrymen come out with?

[Bob Viking]

Fine. You stick with it.

I have witnessed many, many Welsh people speaking Welsh both before and after English people have entered a room.

I used to spread the stories myself until I grew up.

BV

[Lima Juliet]

Problem solved. Sailors, Soldiers and… Crabs! I don’t why we didn’t think of it before? :D

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/e44d63f4_fa1d_4a15_8f43_4c1de70c8809_dbdbcc5f26547b3ffbfdb2d 4da75b3efda7ff123.jpeg