What is going on at the top??

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Fine. You stick with it.

I have witnessed many, many Welsh people speaking Welsh both before and after English people have entered a room.

I used to spread the stories myself until I grew up.

BV

I don't recall anyone here saying that Welsh people don't speak Welsh. What is being said is that it has been known for them to switch when they don't want to be understood.

Two other people on this thread appear to have said it happened to them/people they knew. And I will stick with it, thank you very much, because it has also happened to me.

[minigundiplomat]

Problem solved. Sailors, Soldiers and… Crabs! I don’t why we didn’t think of it before? :D

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/e44d63f4_fa1d_4a15_8f43_4c1de70c8809_dbdbcc5f26547b3ffbfdb2d 4da75b3efda7ff123.jpeg

it’s that LGBT lot in their war canoes paddling around like the village people who started all this nonsense in the first place.

[Fortissimo]

Lester May is an inveterate RAF-hater who takes every opportunity to have a pop via the letters pages of those papers stupid enough to print his bigoted drivel. This latest ‘emission’ means it is probably approaching time for his annual campaign to disband the RAF and divide its assets between the other services.

[Brian 48nav]

Fine. You stick with it.

I have witnessed many, many Welsh people speaking Welsh both before and after English people have entered a room.

I used to spread the stories myself until I grew up.

BV
Bob, Normally you are one of my most respected posters here - you have an amazing way of putting us 'Old Farts' down without us being insulted or even realising that you have done so. I can assure you that when I was on my tour in Stornoway as a CAA ATCO, the staff, who were all Gaelic speakers, would normally converse in English unless they didn't want either myself or the other English ATCO to follow what they were saying. They even did that on the fire service R/T channel! Particularly when we were trying to catch them boozing on duty!.

Relax! Have a good holiday with your family and all the best for the new year.

[Roland Pulfrew]

So have I...with the RAF (not as a reservist!)...at the height of each campaign. Yet as I am a recent Service Leaver he feels empowered to denigrate me and my opinions on how the RAF should be run. Opinions which are held by the majority of the RAF and on here.

As I said to him earlier. He has been given short shrift here and should refrain from telling us what to think. His sad handbag-swinging about 'values and standards' belong in the bin, along with his trite (and often wrong) Thin Pinstriped Line Blog, where he pontificates about military matters based on his experience as a civil servant. Ha ha ha.

My views exactly. Some RNR bloke telling those that are still serving that we don't know what we (the silent majority?) want!! None of those currently serving, regular, RAF personnel, that I have spoken to, supports this change. Almost to a man and woman (or is that person) they thought there were far more important issues to be solved.

[PaulH1]

I too have witnessed the Welsh reverting to the Welsh language when a member of the services walks into a pub. Similar to a previous post, when I was at RAF Valley in late 70s, going for a local pint usually resulted in this behaviour.
The early morning weather ship the following morning would then always perform a NE low level departure - at full throttle! And we wondered why they turned their backs on us the next time we went to the pub!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

My views exactly. Some RNR bloke telling those that are still serving that we don't know what we (the silent majority?) want!! None of those currently serving, regular, RAF personnel, that I have spoken to, supports this change. Almost to a man and woman (or is that person) they thought there were far more important issues to be solved.

Yup, another vote here for that. Straw poll in the crew room and nobody supports the change and all firmly believe there are far greater issues of importance to tackle.

[Krystal n chips]

I don't recall anyone here saying that Welsh people don't speak Welsh. What is being said is that it has been known for them to switch when they don't want to be understood.

Two other people on this thread appear to have said it happened to them/people they knew. And I will stick with it, thank you very much, because it has also happened to me.

You are far from alone in this respect given just about everybody who was at Valley in the 70's experienced this at some point and it's far from being an urban myth, at least during that period.

However, it's worth pointing out demographics and cultures change over time. This was very obvious when I used to deliver items for the NHS for a while and one of my runs took me to addresses in the heart of the island, previously almost exclusively inhabited by locals born and bred along with, quite naturally, speaking Welsh. And not forgetting the state of the housing.

Not any more. The changes were significant when you were in a position to make a direct comparison between then and now.

[dervish]

Simply awful, isn't it. These people who insist on speaking their own language.

[langleybaston]

Simply awful, isn't it. These people who insist on speaking their own language.
Well said sir.

[Jobza Guddun]

My views exactly. Some RNR bloke telling those that are still serving that we don't know what we (the silent majority?) want!! None of those currently serving, regular, RAF personnel, that I have spoken to, supports this change. Almost to a man and woman (or is that person) they thought there were far more important issues to be solved.

A further vote Roly.

Chatter in our crewroom reveals absolutely no one supporting the change, including females; not one. Our majority are also more concerned about more important issues. Interestingly, my children (of joining age) are also puzzled by the amount of fuss as they don't believe their generation are pushing that kind of thinking.

So who is the Chief trying to impress or appeal to if even the so-called "millennials" and youngest generation don't mind the current set-up? I echo the OP's question! This is being overthought - the MACR question is particularly ridiculous.

[Bob Viking]

I can concede that maybe these incidents happened as you describe. However, I am still absolutely certain that many of you completely fail to appreciate the way in which the Welsh language is used. The reason I am so sure is that I was exactly the same. I had all the same prejudices and had heard all the same stories when I first went to Valley in 2002.

Calling the Welsh language ‘Druid speak’ and pretending that it is used merely as a secret code to gossip about English people behind their backs is pretty insulting and naive to say the least.

What you fail to grasp is that Welsh people speak Welsh to each other all the time. It is their first language. Just as two French people would talk French to each other regardless of whether there were any English people present.

If some Welsh people back in the 1970’s switched to Welsh specifically when you walked in, maybe you were the problem?

Just as every local village pub ‘goes quiet’ when an outsider walks in maybe you had preconceived ideas about what to expect and simply confirmed them when some strangers in a pub spoke a funny language in your presence.

I realise I can’t change your mind. That’s fine. It won’t ruin my holiday. But just as I came to realise that I was wrong 20 years ago to think the exact same things that you describe, maybe you could at least entertain the notion that the Welsh language is alive and kicking and not just in existence to annoy stuffy old men who are stuck in a time warp.

BV

[BEagle]

Bob, did you learn Welsh when you were in Anglesey? Were any adult language classes available locally?

It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley servicemen...people? No doubt it would help them if their parents did too?

[beardy]

I recall visiting a barber in Llangefni in the late 70's, when I walked in it was busy, so I took a seat and read the paper whilst waiting my turn. As I waited all the chat between customers and the barber was in Welsh. When my turn came I sat in the chair and was asked something in Welsh I apologised that I didn't speak Welsh. The barber was extremely apologetic that I had been excluded. He said, in a really nice way, that if on entry I had said that I didn't speak Welsh then they would have switched to English. In my time at Valley I never saw the truculence that some have recounted.

[melmothtw]

Bob, did you learn Welsh when you were in Anglesey? Were any adult language classes available locally?

It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley servicemen...people? No doubt it would help them if their parents did too?

BEagle, many parents of Welsh speaking children don't speak it because it was actively discouraged to learn or speak it when they were growing up. Go back only a couple of generations, and it was forbidden to speak it at school or to use it in public office. Look up 'Welsh Not', if you really are keen to learn more about it. That children today are being taught their mother tongue (in addition to English and not at the expense of it) can only be a good thing, and is welcomed by many non-Welsh speakers in Wales, including myself.

BV - very well said!

[BEagle]

I agree entirely! I think that it was about 30 years ago when Welsh became a mandatory requirement in schools in Wales?

[ORAC]

Apologies for the three drift, but it seems relevant with the latest posts….

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/schools-face-closure-parents-take-22305964

Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh

[melmothtw]

Apologies for the three drift, but it seems relevant with the latest posts….

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/schools-face-closure-parents-take-22305964

Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh

Yes, there will always be some. If they were to take themselves across the border, they could avoid having to hear Welsh at all.

[Corporal Clott]

I’ve been thinking a while about this, but I would like to expand on my post #103 and what I think is going wrong right now. This is what I said:

The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.

This video seems to explain another angle to it, but also compliments it. It’s only 15 mins long and discusses why political correctness is not that good for the workplace from a pretty non-partisan viewpoint:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7uHAOAOF7U

I was particularly taken by “the marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions…”. This is why there is a problem right now. You have an Oxbridge educated Chief who was tasked to deliver a report on social mobility, equality and diversity (the so-called Wigston report), who was leapfrogged as the second youngest CAS ever (Portal being the youngest in WWII) by the hapless Gavin Williamson who wanted to see someone younger as Chief. They have surrounded themselves with Minion WOs on Twitter who will call out anyone publicly on social media and at work if their ideas or beliefs do not align to their’s or their Chief’s - so much so, that true beliefs are driven underground. Then when you have a survey on the [incorrect by definition] use of the word Aviator instead of the Airman, and that survey reportedly returns an opinion of over 75% against it, but you just press with it anyway. That seems to generate a very unhappy workplace culture indeed. That TED talk explains everything that I see wrong right now and that is not just in the RAF, but across large sections of society. People are frightened to voice opinions as that “marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions” and so we see the current discontent.

If there was ever anything retention-negative right now, then it is the current [hopefully temporary] culture being driven. I say temporary as I tend to agree with Ricky Gervais on such matters:

I wanna live long enough to see the younger generation not be woke enough for the next generation. It's going to happen. Don't they realise that, it's like, they're next. That's what's funny.We kicked out the old guard. We did it. There's only so woke and liberal you can get and then you start going the other way. But it's inevitable.

[MPN11]

If I may inject some local colour, Jersey’s ‘native language’ Jèrriais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jèrriais) is again being taught in schools here. However, when my BiL (sqn ldr retd) was growing up here in the 50s his mother strongly disapproved of him using the language, as she deemed it ‘common’. Proper French or English was permissible. Curiously, Jersey law and legal documents were, until very recently, written in Jèrriais and it can still be heard spoken in shops in the rural Parishes.

Meanwhile, on another small Island, the Maltese perpetuate their own distinctive (dare I say, obscure) language. And now, since the departure of British forces some 40 years ago, the parallel use of English has declined noticeably. In recent visits, away from the mainstream tourist locations, we have encountered occasional difficulties in communication.

Apologies for the diversion!

[LOMCEVAK]

Whoever replaces Wigston as CAS will have an interesting challenge ahead, and it will be interesting to see whether someone similar or someone with different views on these matters is appointed.

With respect to the language issues, I also heard the stories when I went to Valley in 1978 but never personally experienced anything negative with respect to Welsh being spoken when I was around. I once spent a couple of weeks working with a French military unit in France where, obviously, French was the first language but they could all speak good English also and did so in any conversations that involved us. One day at the start of the second week our host started a conversation with me in French, not consciously because he was trying to prove a point but unconsciously because we were, effectively, part of the unit. I considered this to be quite a complement!

[downsizer]

How long has he got left at the top?

[Mogwi]

Drift warning!

In my early days in OMQs near the German/Dutch border, I went over to the nearest Dutch town (Roermond) to pick up some provisions, After quite a long time waiting whilst other people were served, I opined to the then Mrs Mogwi that I was not sure why I hadn’t been served. Instantly the shopkeeper apologised profusely for ignoring me and explained that he thought we were German!

Likewise, when the Burgermeister of Elmpt suggested to his opposite number in Roermond that a combined complaint about night flying from Brüggen should be made, his reply was that the noise of the Phantom was better than the noise of the Stuka.

Mog

[langleybaston]

Similarly drifting.

I ran many Great War minibus trips to the Somme, Flanders and Arnhem from JHQ, also near Roermond.
We took to displaying a large Union Flag on the German-number-plated battlebus to avoid catcalls and abuse in the Netherlands and Belgium. Even threats near Arnhem.
This over a discontinuous period 1980-1995. There are long memories in the Blitzed countries.

[LoeyDaFrog]

Personally I couldn't give a rat's a*s3 what we are called. I understand there is a debate to be had and 'airman' can be taken a certain way; but, what really grips my $h!* is being asked my opinion and then being told what I 'must do' while the survey that wanted to know what I think, hasn't even closed! :ugh::=

[Hoots]

When the RAF was formed, one of the proposals for top brass ranks was something like: 1st , 2nd, 3rd Avion.
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer

Master doesn’t refer to gender, it’s about being master of your trade. From the dictionary below, Master Carpenter for example,

If you say that someone is a master of a particular activity, you mean that they are extremely skilled at it

[Finningley Boy]

Wasn't there some scuttlebutt about Wigston not wanting to risk the RAF Regiment by deploying them in harms way to secure Kabul Airport during the exodus? It instead being handed to the Army?

FB

[Ninthace]

Well the Wegiment are waggedy wascally wuffians and may have wuffled some feathers. The job should have gone to the cavalry who would have least added some tone to the proceedings.

[langleybaston]

Master doesn’t refer to gender, it’s about being master of your trade. From the dictionary below, Master Carpenter for example,

If you say that someone is a master of a particular activity, you mean that they are extremely skilled at it

My grandsons are Masters, and my granddaughters are Misses. Sounds very gender specific.

[downsizer]

My grandsons are Masters, and my granddaughters are Misses. Sounds very gender specific.

Pretty sure he means in terms of the rank "Master Aircrew", ie being a master of being a loady.

[Jobza Guddun]

Wasn't there some scuttlebutt about Wigston not wanting to risk the RAF Regiment by deploying them in harms way to secure Kabul Airport during the exodus? It instead being handed to the Army?

FB
He was probably a bit worried about what they'd do with the mortars....

[alfred_the_great]

Wasn't there some scuttlebutt about Wigston not wanting to risk the RAF Regiment by deploying them in harms way to secure Kabul Airport during the exodus? It instead being handed to the Army?

FB

I think the broader point was that no one in PJHQ factored the RAF Regiment into the plan; a plan which was seen by plenty in the RAF.

the Regiment was just overlooked, in a scenario that should’ve been their reason d’etre.

which was compounded how they, and a lot of non-flying personnel from the RAF, we’re treated when they returned from the Op. definitely “one rule for the winged master race, one rule for the blunties “….

[The B Word]

My grandsons are Masters, and my granddaughters are Misses. Sounds very gender specific.

That would be the NOUN ‘master’ and not the ADJECTIVE ‘master’ in the case of Master Aircrew. There are actually 3 different definitions of master.

NOUN - as in “Master of the household”. That is a male derivative.

VERB - as in “to master something, which means to overcome it”. It is gender neutral.

ADJECTIVE - as in a modifying word for a NOUN that means “being skilled or highly proficient”. It can also be used used as a modifying word for a NOUN of “something from which duplicates are made”. It is gender neutral in both cases. This is where it is used for Master Aircrew - where “Aircrew” is the NOUN and “Master” is the gender neutral ADJECTIVE to modify the Aircrew NOUN to indicate the highest level of proficiency.

Even though our senior leaders are post-graduate educated, they seem to have failed to get a grasp of the English language as they have insisted on misusing the noun “Aviator” both in context and also the fact that it is the male derivative of what Aviatrix is for females. Secondly, which is odd and ironic, they are all “Master of Arts” from the Staff College but obviously don’t understand that it is gender neutral too, as it using the verb “to master” rather than the noun that they seem to get their pants in a twist about. Maybe it is Swindon Polytechnic after all?? :E

[Ninthace]

Sir, you had it right in post #113 but you fall back into old errors. Aviatrix would only be correct if aviator had a Greek root. However, it doesn’t, it is from the French and aviatrice has etymological precedence by some years.

[Wensleydale]

I noticed on the News last night that the BBC were interviewing a chap working in the NHS who they captioned as a "Ward Sister". I wonder when this will be changed?

[BATCO]

Sir, you had it right in post #113 but you fall back into old errors. Aviatrix would only be correct if aviator had a Greek root. However, it doesn’t, it is from the French and aviatrice has etymological precedence by some years.

I'm with N1 on this. My last tour of duty was as an exchange officer working in the French Ministry of Defence. One of the office staff was French Air Force Aviateur 1ere Classe and the one star always referred to her (3rd person) as ' l'aviatrice '. She had no problem presenting herself as 'Aviateur 1ere Classe'.

[The B Word]

I’m not so sure it’s as crystal clear as you state…

-trix is a suffix occurring in loanwords from Latin, where it formed feminine nouns or adjectives corresponding to agent nouns ending in -tor (Bellatrix). On this model, -trix is used in English to form feminine nouns (aviatrix; executrix) and geometrical terms denoting straight lines (directrix).

Now the avia comes from avian/avis which is Latin for bird which derives from aetós in Greek. Now seeing aviation is a fairly modern phenomena then the etymology of someone who flies is likely to be pretty modern - so the etymology for "aircraft pilot," 1887, from French aviateur, from Latin avis "bird" + -ateur (the common French suffix for someone who does something - like dominateur where the feminine is dominatrice or more commonly in English dominator and dominatrix). The English feminine form of aviatrix is from 1927; the earlier French aviatrice is from 1910, and an earlier English aviatress was first used in 1911.

Now those terms would have been very fresh as Raymonde de Laroche was the first woman to fly a powered aircraft as a Pilot with a licence on 8th March 1910. So really the etymology and its usage starts around that time, where aviatrice, aviatress and aviatrix are effectively correct in their own respective rights.

Another reference here on the more modern use of -trix is here: https://www.affixes.org/alpha/t/-trix.html

[Ninthace]

I’m not so sure it’s as crystal clear as you state…



Now the avia comes from avian/avis which is Latin for bird which derives from aetós in Greek. Now seeing aviation is a fairly modern phenomena then the etymology of someone who flies is likely to be pretty modern - so the etymology for "aircraft pilot," 1887, from French aviateur, from Latin avis "bird" + -ateur (the common French suffix for someone who does something - like dominateur where the feminine is dominatrice or more commonly in English dominator and dominatrix). The English feminine form of aviatrix is from 1927; the earlier French aviatrice is from 1910, and an earlier English aviatress was first used in 1911.

Now those terms would have been very fresh as Raymonde de Laroche was the first woman to fly a powered aircraft as a Pilot with a licence on 8th March 1910. So really the etymology and its usage starts around that time, where aviatrice, aviatress and aviatrix are effectively correct in their own respective rights.

Another reference here on the more modern use of -trix is here: https://www.affixes.org/alpha/t/-trix.html

I was basing my argument on the fact that there are equally good etymological arguments for aviatrix, aviatrice and even aviatress. However, when I did some digging the first reference to la lady pilot being described as an aviatrice dated back to 1911 whereas the term aviatrix appeared to come into use post WW1 when lady pilots appeared in the news. This would have given aviatrice etymological precedence by some years, hence the last sentence in my post. However, I have just done a bit more digging and have just found the term aviatrix was also used in 1907 so that would give aviatrix precedence after all.

[Finningley Boy]

So.... do we still address officers as Sir and Ma'am, accordingly?

FB:confused:

[Nil_Drift]

Where I work we have been told to just start emails with "Good afternoon" or "Colleagues", and similar in briefings, to make everyone equal in every respect. This is removing the military distinctives from what is principally a Civil Service and industry driven workforce.

In order to satisfy the above it is better to add another addressee, even if they don't need to know, and needlessly fill their Inbox otherwise one has to be more specific in appropriately addressing the military superior using the 'S' or 'M' word which could be offensive if one has not been privileged to see their choice of pronouns in their signature block! :ugh:

[vascodegama]

Either way Bword and ninthace regardless of the origin or precedence, a feminine version exists which rather defeats the purpose of the change.

[langleybaston]

The man wrote LADY!

I am told by them as knows that women prefer to be women [unless they want to be one of 57 other varieties] and not have doors opened and seats given up.

Still, old dog, new tricks ........

{Anyway one of our bell ringers is Lady X, married to Sir X]

signed
Dinosaur of Lincolnshire.