Enough is Enough

[Chrispy Kreme]

Why are we all putting up with this? CX have cut our contracts permanently due to covid, while other carriers have done it on a temporary basis until things improve. Some other carriers have now started to reinstate pre-covid terms. DFO has already stated that there is currently no need to change current packages as it is apparently competitive. I don't know how far his head is up his back side, but I would guess it is substantial.

We are being subjected to inhumane and obviously unfair conditions at present; testing on arrival (totalling on average 4hrs before getting home after blocks on, previously 60 mins), testing during our days off, extended duty patterns, 0.25 credit on PX-ing, closed loop flying totalling 4 or 5 weeks away from home ( with some crew doing their 5th loop currently), exposure to covid and hence the possibility of being quarantined for 3 weeks at a government facility (while likely dragging my family to quarantine too) and not being able to get time off to see my other family who live abroad. These are just some of the issues being faced by us, the frontline crew.

I understand other departments have issues they face too, but I am certain, nobody else faces the issues and threats we face when we go to work, and even on the days and weeks after we have finished a flight.

The expectations of crew keeps rising, yet our package is barely scraping the bottom of the barrel. The dangers and threats we face are substantial; so how about giving us what we actually deserve. This ship is sinking. We know it and they know it (even DFO will know it when he pulls his head out of his backside).

"If I'm going down, I might as well go down fighting!"

Why are we not saying enough is enough? Why don't we just put down our tools until they make what we constantly do and face worthwhile/competitive? This ship is sinking anyway. If we go down, we might as well take these morons down with us!

AoA/Pilot group, what do you say?

[Flex88]

AoA Pilot group,🤣

[Oasis]

Even other airlines pay extra if you have a Hong Kong trip, due the complications here.
and as a visiting crew you don’t have nowhere near the hardship we have on the Hong Kong base.

[Jnr380]

Forget the AoA, they’re less of a force for change and more of a support group, The only people that care about pilots are the pilots themselves, everyone else in the company view us as disease riddled, smartly dressed monkeys.

The board is dictated by the two “observers” who make sure whatever the CHP says, the company does, at the expense at the pilots, cabin crew, managers and whoever stands in their way.

How long as a pilot group can we continue with this rhetoric? Each pilot has their own limits, a lot have reached it, a lot haven’t, but one thing is for certain, when new opportunities arise that gets us out of HK, regardless of how bad the pay is or otherwise, people are going to take it, even if it means a temporary stop gap for other opportunities.

[ACMS]

Geez I miss HK……..

not.

[ascalehero]

Serious question as I and many others are interested, what jobs are on offer now? Atlas, EK, QR? The problem we face is cx have us by the balls as we cant get the time off to go and interview. If these airlines are serious about hiring from HKG they would be inundated by applications of suitable pilots if they came to visit HK for interviews/sims. I know they would have to Quarantine but easier than several hundred pilots trying to get leave or out of penny bay

[Veruka Salt]

Plenty of CX guys currently doing Atlas interviews from the comfort of their HK homes.

[Bekol delay]

ANO HK CAP448C Part IV Section 20 para (8)(a)

A person shall not be entitled to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in Hong Kong if he knows or reasonably suspects that his physical or mental condition renders him temporarily or permanently unfit to perform such functions or to act in such capacity.

As we are reminded every PC session, "Your License, your responsibility"

#Groundthefleet

[Sqwak7700]

AoA/Pilot group, what do you say?First they came for the based Pilots, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a based Pilot.

Then they came for the Dragonair pilots, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Dragonair pilot.

Then they came for close-contact pilots, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a close contact Pilot .

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[hyg]

Chrispy Kreme

Ever consider something called resignation? If you have been in CX long enough and didn't blow your well-deserved salary away on luxury items, you should have built up a rather nice nest that should keep you afloat for a while... the based guys survived on half pay for a while until it becomes no pay, food for thought

[main_dog]

Yes, God forbid we actually grow a spine and do anything as a group.

[ZootBoot]

This whole arrangement by the CHP/Gov is to protect peoples health, right? Thats the claim. What about MENTAL HEALTH?

The stress of this whole situation is unbelievably high for many people. The prospect being penalised and your family being penalised, for just doing your job is beyond the pale. Protecting your mental health is important. The company do not give a :mad: about you, HK not only doesn't give a :mad: about you - but the people here actively hate you for doing your job and treat you like a criminal. God forbid you contract COVID either here or at work (you will always only contract it at work whilst overseas obviously) to then have SCMP turn you into a pariah, splashing you and your families life story and present misery all over the internet as some kind of morbid entertainment.

So, even with the punitive policies and contracts designed to encourage going to work- put yourself and your family first. Protect your mental health and call in sick.

[Chrispy Kreme]

hyg

What you have said is irrelevant to the post and certainly has nothing to do with based pilots on half pay and then eventually losing their base. Terrible situation for them all. I am talking about the situation in HK. They haven't been doing what we have been doing, being exposed and tested just to carry out our duty. Let's not compare apples with oranges. But I am sure when the based pilots that can return to HK, do return to HK, they will be in full agreement to the disgusting situation we all are being dragged through.

To answer your question, yes resignation has been considered, and still is being considered. However, the better option is to still take the cash until the limit for my personal circumstances has been reached.

This is about not being stepped on continuously, especially after the contract degradation and now, and most importantly, being forced into inhumane conditions if you like. Enough is enough.

You sound content. But when you open your eyes and see the situation for what it is, then feel free to join the real world and the conversation.

Also, no I haven't blown away my salary. But I do have a mortgage to pay, mouths to feed! (Might also have to keep up payments for my boat, cars and golf cart).

[S22]

main_dog

Fat chance!

[Uplinker]

I don't know why pilots put up with some of the crap we do.

I remember floating the question amongst colleagues at a previous airline; "why must we work on Christmas day?", to be met by blank looks and derision. "It's what you signed up for!", "yes, but why can't we change it?". A CC at the same airline told me that when her nine year old son saw her in uniform, early on Christmas day, he burst into tears, because once again, Mummy was not going to be home on Christmas day. Why do we accept it?

And the EASA flight time limitations that were more onerous than those we had before - just accepted with grumbling and a fatigue reporting system.........

Why don't we ever go on strike to maintain or improve our conditions? What's wrong with us? We work bloody hard as it is, while maintaining standards and professionalism at all hours of the day and night, and home study etc.

The OP should probably resign, but they will have to work out their notice, so that is not an immediate solution. But I would say to the OP and anyone else in a similar situation, just get out and do something else - life will go on, you will find another career.

Flying big jets was fantastic, but I think those days are mostly now behind us - commercial considerations have ruined what used to be a rewarding and worthwhile profession. The CEOs just want to make money, and are not interested in actually creating a happy airline, as long as the passengers keep coming, and passengers mostly only chose on seat price.

It is not worth risking your health or your marriage or family to keep on in a bad situation in the hope it will one day improve.

[CovidRefugee]

"To answer your question, yes resignation has been considered, and still is being considered. However, the better option is to still take the cash until the limit for my personal circumstances has been reached....."

Just what will it take before your limit for personal circumstances has been reached? They are locking you up in a fricking isolation prison for 21 days at a time. How much is your liberty worth? I am staggered at how people try to justify staying just a bit longer. 'Mouths to feed, mortgage to pay.......' etc etc ....Be honest, the company could ask for your left nut and you would still try to reason it as the best choice.

[stevieboy330]

Are people just staying coz the money is good ?

[buster57]

I was in KYIP on Friday(finishing Indoc) and K4 said they are open to the the idea of Zoom interviews for the CX guys stuck in HKG. They are working on setting something up. Better pay and lifestyle as compared to Atlas. A lot of CX guys already here. Contact Holly Rhodes and let her know.

[Chrispy Kreme]

Everybody's threshold is different. Everybody's circumstances are different. I certainly would not give them my left nut if they asked for it. I am very attached to my left one. I was someone who just went with the flow and tried not to ruffle feathers for as long as I got paid and it didn't mess with my personal life too much. Things have changed. Am I moving the goal posts so I don't have to resign? Not anymore. I have been fortunate to not have been forced into quarantine for 21 days. Rosters have been altered by myself to suit myself, whether CC liked it or not. If 21 days quarantine happened, the story will change. I will update you!

For now, since resignation is such a real option for many, why not group together and shut this operation down for a day? HK will literally crap themselves when reality hits them that no toilet rolls and vaccines are not available for our 3rd jab.

[Oasis]

buster57

which outfit is this? Kalitta?

[ak_sled_driver]

buster57

Not better pay there and you won't be pulling 30 hour days at Atlas....

[anxiao]

From uplinker "...The OP should probably resign, but they will have to work out their notice, so that is not an immediate solution."

When I resigned from CX with a 3 month notice clause, after a month I was talking to one of the crew schedulers who said, "We are surprised you are still working, most people don't come in."

I threw a couple of sikkies but did not think of the back pain route. Dumb as a rock as usual...

[FMS82]

Enough is enough....said pretty much every CX pilot every day for pretty much the last 10 years.

​​​​​​You always have options. Take control of your life for god's sake

[S22]

Take that CX!
https://careers.ba.com/job/gatwick/lgw-short-haul-direct-entry-captain/22348/18205335872
and Express for that matter!

[Will IB Fayed]

Chrispy Kreme

I say grow a pair of balls and leave. Pathetic post. You're hoping someone else puts their balls on the line, and you benefit from management panic and an increase in remuneration. That's what I think.

[herewego75]

Wow what a bunch of losers you all are! B%$#hing on here about Enough is Enough. LOL :D

Looking at other threads I see a lot of people saying a few nasty things about our Instagram celeb, but as it stands she is the ONLY one that is publicly standing up to CX and the HK Gov. I think she needs a bit of credit to be honest!

If you are not following her I suggest you go and do so. Share all of her posts and maybe some of you fine specimens can grow a pair! It's all easy to sit behind a computer and cry like little useless individuals but to take a stand takes action and that is what she is doing.

Yes her posts about her beauty products and unwrapping gifts are annoying but what she is doing now is good. Maybe with support she will do even more for the pilot body in CX.
Honestly if I was her I would tell CX to get bent and report of what's really happening out there. Any airline would want her!

And NO I'm not trying to get her more followers.
YES I do follow her and share her posts
Yes I am in favour of Enough is Enough.

[illtellyouhowitis]

herewego,

I had a look at her posts, you seem to have a very different view in my opinion. She is certainly not standing up to anyone, in fact she states that the company have told here to stay neutral. She has declined media interviews from Al Jazeera and bloomberg etc, hardly standing up to the HK government and CX. If she was, I would expect to see her giving her real thoughts and opinions.

I am certainly not a fan of these insta heros, far too narcissistic for my liking, but I agree, she could use this platform for a good cause and exposing what's happening here to some of the worlds media and not sitting on the fence.

[back to Boeing]

She’s been locked in a “facility” after committing no crime in a country that is under the thumb of the country that has some of the most questionable human rights in the world. And you’re asking her to poke the hornets nest.

[Piet Lood]

Standing up against cx? Her?
5 minutes into her tenure she was rubbing elbows with the then DFO, became the postergirl of the HKG 7’s, commented on how she had to save some captain’s from themselves etc.
This was at the same time the pilotgroup was kneedeep into a long and hefty labour dispute.
Karma.

I DO hope she will use her platform for the pilotgroup and against the HKG government and cx, but somehow, I doubt it.

[Chrispy Kreme]

herewego75

You have got to be kidding me? You are either Ms. Narcissist or the boy friend. She isn't doing it to stand up to anybody, and certainly not the company. She did say she sought permission from CX before posting what she posted. That definitely is not standing up or sticking it to the company. Far from it! Looking for sympathy from her followers more than anything. Going for the heroic angle, but yet there have been hundreds of crew who have been through PB and sucked it up quietly! GO FOLLOW her on instagram? Yeah Nah!

[spud]

Give her a break. She’s a victim and she’s trying to do the right thing.

[gipilot]

What did she post when Dragon guys got kicked in the butt? What did she post when the based guys got shafted? What did she post when so many other crewmembers were sent to the camps? Please don’t make a hero out of her but there’s absolutely no need to villainize her either. She’s doing it for herself and her platform and it’s her full right.

Now let’s get back to the topic at hand cause I know she doesn’t give a darn what y’all think of her, now let her be.

[Will IB Fayed]

Chrispy Kreme

You're right. Better to post anonymously on pprune, asking what WE'RE going to do, than actually put a post with her name on it.
Absolutely spineless.

[noboloco]

Chrispy Kreme

There is a simple solution. It you don’t like it here then resign and move on. Go find that unicorn of a better job. The AOA couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery. Expecting to band together pilots on pprune who only have their self interests at heart is futile. Not once have pilots here stood up for each other.

[triple7driver]

She's doing us good and the fact that you guys berate her is disgusting. She's managed to share the story of what's happeneing like none of us would have been able to and I credit her for the story breaking to the BBC, Bloomberg and other big media outlets. The story is talk of the town amongst the aviation community online because of her.
Watch her updates, she's definitely not neutral in her comments and opinions about what's going on...

[ascalehero]

agree , without her this would not have made the news outside of HK.... the power of social media. I would say you could at-least admit she's had more impact for all our benefit complaining online than most guys complaining in WA chats and at the pub.

[Cury Lamb]

And a bit longer than just 21 days :}

[Flex88]

Keep watching the "real" news and FedEx will just be the first in a tsunami of corporations, head offices, banks & retail outlets to RUN from the new ground zero of totalitarian manipulated communism that is Hong Kong...
It used to be the "gateway" to China; it's now the flush lever on the toilet !
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3156315/coronavirus-fedex-shuts-down-hong-kong-pilot-base-citing

[Cury Lamb]

FedEx is FedUp, NGOs are pulling out, the chairwoman of AmChem HK has just resigned, banking and Investment Institutions are making similar noises. The forward and Aft outflow valves are about to go to the fully open position ;)

[FlightMariner]

Hi

Its good to here about this happening in the aviation side of my passion. I am also seeing the same in the maritime world with ships crews subject to constantly changing requirements and shifting goalposts to just get to work. Crews are now getting stuck around the world for months at a time when their rotations used to be 4 weeks on 4 weeks off; They have been spending up to 11 months away from families but it in recent months it has got better at only 4-6 months away.

No increase in pay, no improvement in terms and conditions and the shipowners are trying to leverage the covid issues to get crews to quarantine (up to 2 weeks in the Far East) on their own time rather than being paid.

Sorry to hear it is happening in aviation swell.

[Pickuptruck]

The more that people moan about working at CX the more they moan they can't go to 65 while working at CX. Instead the rumour mill floods with stories of mass resignations that never actually happen. '8 resigned yesterday, no it was 18, Hey did you hear it was 80, I got told 1080" Taking out the Base folk and the Voluntary redundancy folk from the movement in the seniority list and I've barely moved in the past 8 months.

[Koan]

Enough is enough but has the OP quit yet?

covid-19 is just the thin edge of the wedge.

[Will IB Fayed]

he wants others to do the heavy lifting, yet mocks those who do.

[chards]

Pickuptruck

im in the top 15% of the seniority list (not that it means anything) and I’ve moved a couple of hundred places in the last 18 months so I don’t know what your looking at.

[carolknows]

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/cathay-pacific-marco-polo-club/1926337-almost-half-cathay-pacific-s-pilots-want-leave-hong-kong-carrier.html

Good times. 4 years on things are finally moving.

[Uplinker]

FlightMariner

Big money is behind all this. Airlines have managed to get pilots to pay for their own ATPL and type ratings, £120,000, thank you very much. As if that wasn't bad enough many pilots work long hours, have no annual pay review, and suffer ever worsening terms and conditions. It is not just CX, there is a similar thread to this running in the Middle East section, with allegations of an airline falsifying pilot duty hours.

The Airlines have got it all stitched up. I have been in 3 airlines, (none of them under discussion here), and the company councils were not effective in any of them - no strikes, always a fudge and acceptance of the new T's & C's. Pilots unions, are also ineffective, when was the last time there was industrial action against a new diktat? Why were the EASA flight time "limitations" accepted?

In a previous career, the broadcasting union was very strong. We had, and they continue to have, annual or biannual pay reviews, coupled with terms and conditions improvements to lifestyle and working hours. The broadcasting union also has a strong ethic to support those on the lower levels, new to the industry. Rogue broadcast companies are blacklisted in published lists. Strikes did occur, I went on strike a couple of times, once being interviewed by ITN when we had just walked out of the Ascot races broadcast: "Why had we gone on strike?, Sorry, no comment". Another time, at a large golf tournament, (cannot remember which one now), management took our places, and tried to produce the program, which was hilarious; One manager pointing a camera following what he thought was the golf ball flying through the air, only to realise it was a seagull !

I am absolutely not a raving left-winger, but a strong union with strong membership is essential in this day and age, particularly in our profession. The airline seniority system kills the will to strike - those at the top are often on part time and earning 4 times of those at the bottom, so the top earners have a much easier time and don't have the same schedules as the new, full-time joiners.

I can also imagine how an airline could neuter their company council, by offering self rostering, weekends off, posh meals out with the top brass, hints of RHS to LHS and LHS to TRE promotions and other incentives: to gently and subtly persuade CC members to go along with the CEOs and in turn persuade the workforce to follow.

I have never worked for CX nor have I ever served on a company council, so this is purely my own opinion, based on my own experience and observation, and I do not intend any offence to anybody. But we, the pilot community have got to do something to improve our industry.

[Drc40]

herewego75

You bugger! Just caused me to waste half a glass of fine single malt laughing at this nonsense. You realize she got “approval” from the Kompany right? Anything she says and does is ChiComm approved and you say she’s taking a stand? Mighty gullible…

[noboloco]

Pickuptruck

the truth. So pretty much just above regular attrition through retirements etc. Not a “mass exodus” that people on this forum love to sprout bs about.

[Oasis]

two a day for many months now, that is not normal, check the seniority list.

[Bueno Hombre]

Intelligent foreign pilots will be going home now.

[MENELAUS]

Just bring the operation to a halt. Christ stress alone should do it.

[olster]

As an ex CX from way back all I can say is what a shame such a great airline has come to this. The blame probably lies in many areas. My generation did not help, they enjoyed the best airline pilot package in the world and some (I repeat some) were keen to let others know and did not act with humility. Add several decades of toxic management coupled with their new friends in the upper echelons of flight operations and voila the Swiss cheese holes start to line up. It probably starts with the 49ers although it had been brewing before that. The star chamber of that time should be ashamed of themselves albeit now in their Queensland villas or Scottish castles. In recent years add Covid and an acquiescence to an authoritarian regime and we have the new normal which treats employees in this appalling fashion. The human propensity to destroy a good thing due greed and incompetence is extraordinary.

[MENELAUS]

And many a true word therein. To say nothing of what the mainland regime is actually doing to the fabric and the people of Hong Kong. A travesty

[DonLeslie]

ascalehero

Although I am neither affected nor active on Intagram, I can only agree. Her channel was mentioned in one of our internal forums and so many colleagues, including myself, learned of this scandal. For that she deserves recognition, whether you like her style personally or not.

[carolknows]

Why no mention of BA crew locked up in penny bay in local news? Why not?

[Cury Lamb]

Like someone else said, another German Wings in the making!

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/locked-hotels-hong-kongs-covid-19-rules-take-mental-toll-cathay-pilots-2021-11-26/

[Flex88]

Infections detected in HK...... 😱 Had enough ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOfGokJc9CA

[Fac6]

Scientists claim it will mutate itself into extinction so of course, there will be many variants. Another variant is only as scary as the media/government portray it and as you perceive it.

[VR-HFX]

Fac6
Are you talking about management or COVID?

[Cury Lamb]

Brilliant!!