Simming before PPL [Archive]

ELMS77W

3rd Nov 2021, 15:07

Hey pilots,

I am 19 and I am about to start my PPL training really soon, just waiting for the answer from my aeroclub...

I have been flying the 777 for 6 years (virtually :*) using the PMDG on P3D on VATSIM (Virtual Air Traffic Simulation) following real-world procedures (or trying to) after reading the FCTM entirely, watching and rewatching again all the CBTs available on youtube, partially going through the FCOMs and QRH and casually practising emergency procedures and reviewing my memory items whenever I can. I have definitely the knowledge of a real 777 pilot :rolleyes: (no I don't believe it myself but that's what I am trying to achieve). I know that my first type rating won't be in a 777 but that's my favorite aircraft :)

Now we're entering again in the winter and winter is always associated with cold-weather operations. I know that when you deice your aircraft the fluid will protect you from ice during a small period of time (remembering that its primary purpose is deicing and not anti-icing). The holdover time tables will give you precise information about how much time the deicing fluid will protect you depending on which type of fluid you're using and the concentration of it. The problem is that when you take the HOT table on the internet, there are so much different possibilities besides the 4 common fluid types that I know, I believe depending on which surface you're deicing. Here's what I could find for 2021-2022: URL (couldn't put it because I don't have 10 posts yet). For example, you have TYPE II HOLDOVER TIMES FOR NEWAVE AEROCHEMICAL FCY-2 then later you have TYPE II HOLDOVER TIMES FOR CLARIANT SAFEWING MP II FLIGHT... What is the difference between the 2??

So my questions :
1. Is there an EASA similar document?
2. Why so many different tables for the same fluid type?
3. How do you know which type of fluid is being applied to your aircraft? (or which type of surface the fluid is being applied on)

Hope I was clear despite my poor English :)

Maoraigh1

3rd Nov 2021, 20:42

The EASA Or UK CAA PPL can be obtained without knowledge of deicing procedures. Your School will handle any deicing if it is required.
My understanding is that none of the civilian trainers at present in use have similar handling characteristics and procedures to the 777.

Banana Joe

3rd Nov 2021, 20:56

I fly for an EASA operator and we follow Transport Canada HOT guidelines, The alternative is the one from the FAA. I have never come across an EASA equivalent document, but I've only flown for one operator so far.

There are several types of table because different fluids (and their brand) have different characteristics and properties, which are also affected by external factors. In my base we know well before leaving the crew room what type of fluid is in use, outstation we're usually told by the handling company or by the de-icing equipment crew on the associated frequency.

Now here comes a real world advice: ditch the 777 for a while, get a good add-on for MSFS2020 that will replicate the light airplane you will do your PPL on and practice with it, especially drills. MSFS2020 is especially great to prepare for VFR navigations when you get to that stage.

Pilot DAR

3rd Nov 2021, 21:09

Welcome ELM,

Yeah, get away from a 777 simulation, and stop thinking about deicing - think don't fly an iced plane, nor a plane in ice - at all... and you'll be better off for your initial flying. You'll be trained for icing when you need to be.

There is a lot to know and understand about flying a light airplane, much of which has little commonality with a 777 - don't learn about jets until you need to, when you need to, learn then, you'll be ready. If you try to carry backward big airplane systems and handling knowledge to primary flight training, you're going to certainly defeat your own efforts, and really annoy you instructor. If you're defeating your own efforts with misplaced knowledge, and annoying your instructor, there are two certain results: It'll take longer, and cost you more money. If I were you, I would not mention jet flying at all - for years. I speak as a 45 year pilot, with 85 types in my logbook, not one of which was a jet!

If simming helps you with navigation, airspace and radio work, okay, with caution. But handling should be learned under the direct supervision of an instructor, in a real plane.

ELMS77W

4th Nov 2021, 08:51

Thanks to everyone for answering my questions.

Now even though most of my flights are in the 777, I do still sometimes fly general aviation airplanes. A few years ago, I was flying on IVAO (another virtual platform simulating ATC mostly in Europe) but left because basically there are too many kids there. IVAO gives you the possibility to take exams like you would do in real life for the PPL forcing you to fly a light airplane.

The examiner will ask theoretical questions about

Basics of air law: instrument and visual flight rules, weather requirements for VFR flights, airspace classes and structure, types of controlled airspaces, ATC units and positions, transponder codes,
Chart reading
VFR procedures: VFR charts interpretation and VFR circuit,
Navigation: VFR routes, basic use of radio navigation aids, semi-circular rules, transition altitude and transition level,
Meteorology: METAR and TAF interpretation,
Flight instruments and aircraft knowledge: principles of altimetry, altimeter settings, airspeeds, basic flight instruments, aircraft characteristics.

During the flight, the examiner will also ask you to navigate between radials and VORs/NDB, fly traffic patterns, VFR entry points, touch and goes, check your VFR phraseology, etc and make sure you're doing it correctly.
Even though it's not near a real PPL exam, it really gives you the basics about VFR and what flying a light airplane looks like. I passed this exam 3 years ago and didn't stop flying light airplanes from time to time since then.
Later I passed another similar exam basically giving you your instrument qualification in a light aircraft.

So it's not like I didn't touch a light aircraft at all. I passed these exams on X-plane because I heard from real pilots that this sim was well-simulating flight characteristics of real airplanes. FS2020 wasn't released at this time but I am definitely planning on buying it and flying more often light airplanes on the sim. I'll take your advice into account and not mix jets with lights but I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time :)

MrAverage

4th Nov 2021, 10:06

I second exactly what Pilot DAR said. I wish I could have spoken to you before you went down this path. New students for the PPL who've spent far too much time on PC sims are really hard work for instructors, especially instructors who teach basic flying correctly by maximising the time looking through the perspex at the natural horizon and the rest of the sky (all around above and below) for the other traffic that could kill you and for situational awareness/visual nav. We often have to cover up one or more of the instruments to promote correct lookout. If the Asiana crew in San Francisco had only looked out the window..........................

Pilot DAR

4th Nov 2021, 12:42

During the flight, the examiner will also ask you and I passed these exams on X-plane

Pop up red flags for me. If these "examiners" and "exams" were a part of a regulator approved training program for a PPL course, in which you are enrolled, okay - but I doubt it.

Our industry has a few pilots (particularly since Covid) who are a little bored, and tend to insert themsleves into "training" outside of regulated courses. These pilots motivations might be altruistic mentoring, a little showing off what they know, and/or money. Maybe they ever were/are flying instructors - but it is unlikely that they are conducting themselves within the PPL training guidelines and curriculum. All of the topics you mention are at certain levels, elements of a PPL, and sure, there's learning to be achieved in there, but saturating your mind with things that you don't need to know yet (for PPL) may suppress absorbing the learning required for a PPL.

Remember the social expectation that when you receive a birthday gift with a card, you open and read the card first? The gift giver would like you to read and consider their kind sentiment in the card, before the present overwhelms you, and you forget the card entirely.

Approved simulators certainly have merit in advanced training. But, that merit is built on the candidate pilot having learned a real fear of consequences. A qualified pilot receiving sim training [hopefully] already understands the criticality of a minor screw up, resulting in a crash - sims cannot train that, and actually defeat that learning. Further to that, sims give you zero sense of taking sole responsibility for returning yourself to earth safely - no consequences to a screw up! Actual pilot training will teach you to be afraid!

With 6000 hours fixed wing, I took helicopter training. The sky was my welcoming friend after all those decades of being there. The twitchy helicopter was not yet my friend. It kept warning me that much more of this or that, and we'd be a rotating ball on the ground - I was really nervous on my first few solo flights! A sim not only cannot teach that, but actually teaches you to not worry about it!

Your greatest real piloting success going forward from here will be to not sim at all, unless the training course tells you to. Enroll in ground school and learn exactly as the course leads you - don't mention your simming at all! Then start your training at a flying school, and learn as taught - don't mention your simming at all!

One day, as you advance your training into commercial and airline, you'll be put back in a sim, and you can relax and go ahhhh... Until then, do your training as we did - approved course and curriculum!

Would you believe that I learned to fly at a time when there was no such thing as a personal computer, in an airplane with only one comm radio - and then I graduated to an airplane with no electrical system at all!

Jan Olieslagers

4th Nov 2021, 12:47

I can confirm all the above reserves from my own experience as a student pilot. Having "flown" thousands of hours on MSFS, I drove more than one instructor to despair by looking at the instruments all the while. Best thing you can do is to forget everything you "learned" in the simulation game, and start with a blank mind.

And forget about de-icing, you are many hours of flying from the need. If ever the point becomes relevant, you can rely on the club/airfield management to keep an eye on you. There are very few, if any, club planes certified for FIKI.

NB are you going to learn at EBGB Grimbergen? If so, your time might be better spent at brushing up your Dutch :)

ELMS77W

4th Nov 2021, 14:44

If these "examiners" and "exams" were a part of a regulator approved training program for a PPL course
I really doubt it

A qualified pilot receiving sim training [hopefully] already understands the criticality of a minor screw up, resulting in a crash - sims cannot train that, and actually defeat that learning.
I would love to say that I am completely aware of that but I don't know if I can, based on my sim experience only. Reading reports of crashes/incidents really shows you how small details can easily cause crashes. None of my flights online led to a crash but in the sim, there are tons of factors that are irrelevant but aren't IRL (icing for e.g.).

Your greatest real piloting success going forward from here will be to not sim at all, unless the training course tells you to. Enroll in ground school and learn exactly as the course leads you - don't mention your simming at all! Then start your training at a flying school, and learn as taught - don't mention your simming at all!
So would someone that has never heard of airplanes before learn quicker than someone who has thousands of hours of sim behind? Even if that simmer learnt some great things in its virtual career? When you're simming there are tons of rumours about how you should fly an airplane. Once I met someone convinced that flaring was made by trimming only and not using the yoke except to stay in the centerline. This guy might probably take a bit longer to get his first solo.. (unless I am the one completely wrong...)
I know that training is always the first priority. If my instructor teaches me something I'll definitely not come in and say hey that's not what I learnt in the sim but if the training matches what I learnt in the past then it can only be advantageous for me couldn't it?

I can confirm all the above reserves from my own experience as a student pilot. Having "flown" thousands of hours on MSFS, I drove more than one instructor to despair by looking at the instruments all the while.
Heard it multiple times. I'll definitely try to not make that mistake. In the sim, looking outside is quite boring as you always need to move your camera so you tend to rely more on instruments.

And forget about de-icing, you are many hours of flying from the need.
My deicing question was more for curiosity than any other thing :8

NB are you going to learn at EBGB Grimbergen? If so, your time might be better spent at brushing up your Dutch
I am really bad at dutch. :\ I thought about going there, even visited the club but went for the Roger Sommer aeroclub instead because it's cheaper and a friend of mine has also started his training here so I will be able to see his flights from the backseat which I think is a great learning experience as you can learn from his mistakes in addition to your own mistakes and therefore improve 2 times faster. :)

Pilot DAR

4th Nov 2021, 15:35

So would someone that has never heard of airplanes before learn quicker than someone who has thousands of hours of sim behind?

I'll answer that with a "could be..." in the context of learning to fly a very simple GA airplane in a VFR only environment. Think of it this way, if you've never ridden a bicycle, would thousands of hours of driving help you with that? Not much... Rules of the road a little, yes, but the bicycle is a whole different vehicle to control compared to a car, just as a light GA plane is to an airliner.

I have on several occasions, trained airline pilots to fly advanced GA amphibious airplanes. I knew that they had thousands of hours of jet flying, they knew that they had it. We both agreed at the very beginning, that it had very little value in the training we were about to do. Indeed (as is a bit too common), all that airliner time got one pilot in a very dangerous situation, as he selected wheels down for landing, and confirmed wheels down. His serious error was that this was a planned and briefed water landing. He completely put his ego away after that. I've had to train a number of pilots for something new, compared to their prior experience. My very best success has come with pilots who have said to me: "Teach me as though I know nothing, and we'll see where we get to.".

Your best success in learning to fly a small airplane in an approved flight training environment will come after you step away from simming, and focus entirely on the approved training curriculum (which will not include simulators). 'Just free advice, from someone who knows...

Jan Olieslagers

4th Nov 2021, 16:40

So would someone that has never heard of airplanes before learn quicker than someone who has thousands of hours of sim behind? At the risk of being more outspoken than the wise :) I'd answer that with "most likely, yes". As said, the simmer will first have to "unlearn" many things acquired, before learning can begin.

went for the Roger Sommer aeroclub Cheese us! That's at LFSJ Sedan-Douzy, right? Two hours' stiff driving from Brussels? Excuse me for becoming more and more sceptical. Yes, the hourly rate for the plane may be cheaper, and the French have a strong tradition of disciplined training, believing very much in self-control. But will the difference in rates make up for the road trips? Including those wasted because of suddenly inclement weather, plane broken, instructor ill, runway closed due a visiting family of boars, &c &c?

Also, be aware that a PPL gained in France may allow you to fly in Belgian airspace, but like as not you will learn the radio in French which is neither legal nor practical in the rest of Europe - Belgium included. Get the facts straight before spending money!

pilotmike

4th Nov 2021, 21:06

Thanks to everyone for answering my questions.

I'll take your advice into account and not mix jets with lights but I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time :)
I think you've just proved Pilot DAR's point perfectly. If you were one of mine, you'd be annoying me already. For the avoidance of doubt, flying instructors don't instruct on the basis that you'll try to take their advice into account - and you then totally ignore what they say. That is exactly the sort of breath-taking arrogance and 'I know better then you' attitude that will cost you time and money.

I've seen them all, like the student who knew I was wrong and he was correct that when flying from A to B with a cross wind the plane need a bit of rudder to keep it straight, because when he sails his boat across a tidal river he always needs a bit of rudder to keep it straight etc, etc. I think there's every chance you'll be just like him. He knew everything. Absolutely everything.. But he couldn't learn anything. Because he would never listen. And by the way, he never went solo.

From what you've said already, I have a hunch you're likely to be coming back here 20 hours into your training to moan "I've had 4 instructors so far... and none of them were any good... none of them seem to be able to teach me how to land properly... none of them listened to me when I said they were wrong on this, that or the other technicality... do you think I should be looking to go to another school with better instructors?"

kghjfg

5th Nov 2021, 00:36

I flew with a colleague recently in a PA28 who has thousands of hours msfs sim time.

When I let him take the controls he was having a massive problem keeping the wings level or the pitch constant.

After 5 minutes of porpoising around the sky we discussed what was going on.

He’s quite a nice chap and it was enlightening, he said

The yoke didn’t have the effects he was used to, he couldn’t believe how responsive a real plane is, how it feels when you do things, and how hard it is.

The instrumentation wasn’t as clear, I explained we had a much better horizon out of the front window and we don’t really fly along just looking at the panel as he was. We glance at it now and then. He was trying to watch it.

So, what he was actually trying to do was fly as if in IMC without being trained in the proper way to do an instrument scan. He was randomly looking around the panel.

of course, you can manage a flight sim randomly looking around the panel, even with the small bit of IMC training I have, I know a proper scan is important in a real aircraft.

his last point was about feelings, he thought it odd being able to feel the plane moving.

I heard him telling someone a few weeks later

”I’m not sure I’d do it again, at one point we must have dropped about 2000 feet”, which would have been a neat trick when we were flying about 2500’ AGL!

Anyway, a message to the OP, I’m sure you’ll be fine, I’d post more, but I’m off to have a go on my Formula One sim, I can nearly do the same lap times as Lewis Hamilton, I’m pretty sure therefore I’d be able to actually drive an F1 car in real life, my sim is after all very realistic.

I know that sounds a bit like I am being sarcastic (I am), but really it’s just an insight into how people view someone who says they can fly real aircraft because they are good at msfs.

You’ll love real aircraft, but I’d forget about the simming for a bit whilst learning to fly.

Out of complete interest, and genuinely not trying to belittle you, you say you have a sim IR. What is the order of your scan? Was you taught one?

One other thing, simming without pedals and calling it flying may kill you.
If you have ever done stall recovery incorrectly, and picked up a dropped wing without use of your feet, in a real aircraft if you try that you’ll be spinning towards the ground.
I presume you’ve done stall recovery if you have an IR?

Again, I’m not having a go at you, I’m interested in how the simming world views itself and how it views real flying.

I may play the odd F1 game, but I am aware I could not drive a real F1 car.

double_barrel

5th Nov 2021, 10:38

When I started flying I had crazy problems steering while taxiing. I suspect it was years with go-karts as a kid which reversed my instincts. I used a basic SIM with pedals to fix that and lock-in the correct instinct, that definitely helped. Other than that, I used the SIM to lock-in and speed-up emergency procedures, but only after they had been established in real life. So pretty basic stuff! And supplementing real-world experience, not replacing it.

Jim59

5th Nov 2021, 11:13

If you have ever done stall recovery incorrectly, and picked up a dropped wing without use of your feet, in a real aircraft if you try that you’ll be spinning towards the ground.

That comment is almost worth a thread all to itself!

kghjfg

5th Nov 2021, 11:54

That comment is almost worth a thread all to itself!

If you try and pick up a dropped wing with aileron in a real aircraft, you’ll stall the wing fully and it gets exciting.

The rudder isn’t stalled and you can use the secondary effect of yaw to pick the wing up.

I don’t know why that would need a thread of it’s own. That’s part of basic stall recovery.

I’d be interested if the OP was aware of this, if they’d even done any stall training to get their sim licences. I think them stating they have a sim IR is the most worrying bit tbh.

Piper.Classique

5th Nov 2021, 12:52

Look, I'm not saying this is a Troll. That would be rude and maybe unwarranted. However, if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then consider the possibility that it might go well with orange sauce.

double_barrel

5th Nov 2021, 12:57

rudestuff

5th Nov 2021, 13:23

So would someone that has never heard of airplanes before learn quicker than someone who has thousands of hours of sim behind? Even if that simmer learnt some great things in its virtual career? When you're simming there are tons of rumours about how you should fly an airplane.
Yes exactly. It is easier to teach someone from scratch than it is for someone to unlearn bad habits, then relearn good ones. Your flight Simulation hobby could cost you dearly.

Less Hair

5th Nov 2021, 15:01

PC flight simulators might be more helpful for early IFR understanding, so later on in the process. Link trainer style. But only if the real procedures, maps and routes are used.
The best initial actual flying training is done on gliders from my view. So better spend the money on a basic glider course instead of expensive add ons and cockpit panels. That's more bang for the buck.

LTCTerry

5th Nov 2021, 17:34

ELMS77W - the FAA defines five hazardous attitudes and provides tips on how to overcome them.

I can paraphrase one of them as "I know more than you do, so you can't tell me what to do." Here are my thoughts before you go take a look in the mirror:

A 777 pilot would think you are a gamer.

You have no clue about real flying, but you do have demonstrated repeated defensive responses to the advice being presented.

Your attitude will alienate instructors, club members, and fellow student pilots.

You are unwilling to listen to experienced people who truly know what they are doing trying to help you; after all, you can fly a 777 on a computer. Most of the people here don't have a wide-body jet type rating. Oh, wait. Neither do you. Oh, you've sim'd a Piper too. So, that makes it all good. (That's sarcasm.)

You are likely to end up paying much, much more to get to solo and to becoming a private pilot because of bad habits to overcome and an unwillingness to listen to the experts because you, after all are the chief pilot of Walter Mitty Air.

Here's my suggestion - stop with the sim. Go fly a glider. A lot. Get a glider license. Learn aerobatics. At this point you've trained yourself to look almost exclusively outside. Now go learn to fly an airplane.

If you can't break the negative superior attitude I'd have to agree with the comment that one day you'll be here complaining about too many instructors and no progress, blah, blah, blah.

Good luck!

Pilot DAR

5th Nov 2021, 18:23

Look, I'm not saying this is a Troll.

Yes, I thought about that Piper.Classique, but whether a troll or not, the advice is good and solid. Other real people, pilot want to be's, will be well served by it as they quietly read it to themselves!

Nick 1

5th Nov 2021, 18:32

The difference between real flying and playing with P3D or similar , no matter the numbers of hardware you can fit it , is like the difference between having s@x and watching it from the keyhole.

pilotmike

5th Nov 2021, 19:53

Troll? How harsh. But Porteous Loopy is definitely making long lists for their fishing trip.

rarelyathome

5th Nov 2021, 22:00

If you try and pick up a dropped wing with aileron in a real aircraft, you’ll stall the wing fully and it gets exciting.

The rudder isn’t stalled and you can use the secondary effect of yaw to pick the wing up.

I don’t know why that would need a thread of it’s own. That’s part of basic stall recovery.

I’d be interested if the OP was aware of this, if they’d even done any stall training to get their sim licences. I think them stating they have a sim IR is the most worrying bit tbh.

Standard Stall Recovery - Control Column centrally forward until symptoms stop, full power, roll wings level, climb away. Forget dropped wing until it is unstalled then use aileron. Using rudder while the aircraft is stalled is asking for trouble. That’s why it’s worth a thread of its own.

Less Hair

5th Nov 2021, 22:11

You won't even learn what trim is using only some PC. 777 tested or not.

ELMS77W

6th Nov 2021, 00:08

You are unwilling to listen to experienced people who truly know what they are doing trying to help you; after all, you can fly a 777 on a computer. Most of the people here don't have a wide-body jet type rating. Oh, wait. Neither do you. Oh, you've sim'd a Piper too. So, that makes it all good. (That's sarcasm.)

Never did I say you or any people there were wrong. I am just trying to share with you my thoughts and let professional pilots correct me if I am wrong.

I said "I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time" and now that I am taking a step back I do realise that it was quite an arrogant response but again I didn't say that you were wrong. This is what I believe (or believed) and that's why I'm writing it down here. If I'm wrong then say it and please tell me why. I think it's more constructive to get someone to be a bit more defensive than having a person who stupidly says yes all the time to everyone without asking questions.
I am always trying to be open-minded. Aviation is a humbling experience and if you become arrogant you won't go anywhere and this thread is a great example to demonstrate it.
Stopping all of a sudden from flying jets in the sim will be difficult for me because I love doing it and I have been doing it for years but if my instructor tells me that I should stop, then I will stop if necessary.

Yes, I thought about that Piper.Classique, but whether a troll or not, the advice is good and solid.
Believe it or not, I am not a troll. Just someone who's about to start his flight training and somehow it already started there...

Cheese us! That's at LFSJ Sedan-Douzy, right? Two hours' stiff driving from Brussels? Excuse me for becoming more and more sceptical. Yes, the hourly rate for the plane may be cheaper, and the French have a strong tradition of disciplined training, believing very much in self-control. But will the difference in rates make up for the road trips?

Also, be aware that a PPL gained in France may allow you to fly in Belgian airspace, but like as not you will learn the radio in French which is neither legal nor practical in the rest of Europe - Belgium included. Get the facts straight before spending money!

Based on my calculations yes. Now I took months to take that decision, consulted tons of people and I was really hesitating between the two. Also, my friend who's flying here is living in Charleroi so we would most of the time make our way together reducing car fuel prices quite a bit.
If you are convinced that I'm making a bad decision, then I don't know who I should be listening to.
------------------------------------------

Just to clarify: I know I can't fly an airplane and can't land a 777 nor even a C172 like a type rated pilot would do. I'm conscious about the fact that most of the guys here are way much more experienced than me and I am not trying to teach them how to fly their airplanes just based on my desktop simulator experience. What I thought before opening this thread was that my flight sim experience could help me during my training and my career as an airline pilot.

Short story :
Whenever I am travelling, I write a small letter and send it to the flight deck. This letter basically tells the pilots I want to join them during the flight if they get time. Once, the captain who was a type rated instructor in Brussels Airlines took me in the flight deck shortly before leaving the blocks. He asked me tons of questions about myself and then proposed me to do the comms. I was quite surprised by that proposition. I was about to say no but he didn't even give me the time to do it. He showed me the PTT and gave me the headset and told me that we would shortly switch to Langen Radar when entering Germany. I asked for the callsign and he wrote it on a paper that he gave me after the flight for memory. This is how I did my first and my last communications with real ATC from the climb all the way down to the terminal. All the time they both told me that they were impressed by my radio communication, saying that I don't make common mistakes that many students do. All of that wouldn't have been possible without practising in the sim. There are other reasons why I thought simming could help for my courses, mostly based on outcomes coming from your trained colleagues or student pilots already flying. A few people think that I'm trolling and probably won't believe that story. That's your choice.

Like I said hundreds of times, I am consciously reading every single one of everyone's posts and will start my training with a different mind than I would if people here wouldn't have mentioned my flight MSFS experience. I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.
If I was the king in aviation, I don't think I would be there inquiring...

FIC101

6th Nov 2021, 10:01

Last chap I sent first solo who was an avid Microsoft ‘airline pilot’ went in 7 hours. I cannot say it hampered him in anyway, apart from a poor understanding of maintaining aircraft balance with the rudder.

pilotmike

6th Nov 2021, 11:39

Short story :
Whenever I am travelling, I write a small letter and send it to the flight deck. This letter basically tells the pilots I want to join them during the flight if they get time. Once, the captain who was a type rated instructor in Brussels Airlines took me in the flight deck shortly before leaving the blocks. He asked me tons of questions about myself and then proposed me to do the comms. I was quite surprised by that proposition. I was about to say no but he didn't even give me the time to do it. He showed me the PTT and gave me the headset and told me that we would shortly switch to Langen Radar when entering Germany. I asked for the callsign and he wrote it on a paper that he gave me after the flight for memory. This is how I did my first and my last communications with real ATC from the climb all the way down to the terminal. All the time they both told me that they were impressed by my radio communication, saying that I don't make common mistakes that many students do.
Hillarious!! Amazing how easy it is to get past the locked door policy in MS sims! ZZZZzzzzzz. Dreamer.

Pilot DAR

6th Nov 2021, 12:26

then proposed me to do the comms.

Actually over the air? That does require a radio operator's license.....

let professional pilots correct me if I am wrong

I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.

Based upon the replies you have received, I think the "if you're wrong" element has been established - You're wrong about this.

What I thought before opening this thread was that my flight sim experience could help me during my training and my career as an airline pilot.

Fair enough. But, the information offered to you has shone a different light on the topic. The very most important personal quality a student pilot has, and an airline pilot has, is the willingness to take direction as it is offered, and not challenge authority. Tens of thousands of hours of piloting experience has collectively provided very authoritative advice for you here, simply out of a desire to encourage (in the right direction) an aspiring pilot - that's what we do here, we support and promote piloting. No one here will be your instructor nor second crew member (the odds are just too great of that!), so no one is personally affected by the decisions you make, nor your conduct as a student, nor a pilot. What you do in your life, is what you do, no one here knows anything other than what you say. You don't have to impress anyone here with your willingness to follow authority - 'doesn't matter.... But, experienced pilots here are telling you that the learning path choices you're making for yourself are not in your best interests - for free!

People make it through in life, even when stepping on their own shoelaces, it just takes them longer, costs them more, and the trip sometimes, hey, life is life, not everyone does it the same way... But... Chief pilots, when considering which candidate to hire, really do look to avoid hiring the type of pilot who bucks authority, and steps on their own shoelaces - so that will be where your career advancement will stop. Why work double hard toward a stop, instead of working wisely toward a path forward?

Heston

6th Nov 2021, 12:58

I love threads like this (and let's face it they appear pretty frequently). Why?
Because they remind me of what an arrogant know it all I was when I was young - and then I think that I didn't turn out too bad after all :)
Mind you PCs and home Sims didn't exist then.

Less Hair

6th Nov 2021, 13:11

Any real simulator is certified for a specific role. Game simulator advertisements claim a lot like being "developed" or "tested" by pilots. But this has no real world instructional value. It might give you some vague idea but it is no instructional tool and might even lead to wrong directions or bad habits. Whenever you want to get into real flying do real flying. Flight schools have PC sort of simulators that are useful but might be considered boring by gamers.

Pilot DAR

6th Nov 2021, 13:11

Because they remind me of what an arrogant know it all I was when I was young - and then I think that I didn't turn out too bad after all

Haha! Me too! But, it didn't take long for some wise and experienced pilots to straighten me out. Back then it was mostly done in person, including turning their back and walking away from me. But, now, in the computer age, there's a need to translate that into typed posts....

FlightDetent

6th Nov 2021, 14:41

I said "I don't think I could stop flying the 777 entirely though. I believe it's possible to do both at the same time" and now that I am taking a step back I do realise that it was quite an arrogant response but again I didn't say that you were wrong. This is what I believe (or believed) and that's why I'm writing it down hereIt did not sound arrogant to me on the first read, nor does it now. Unlike the posts that followed, pointing fingers at what you did not say.

Keep your chin up, but for heaven's sake do take the good advice written by others here (despite its unnecessary wrapping).

rmcdonal

6th Nov 2021, 15:35

So my questions :
1. Is there an EASA similar document?
2. Why so many different tables for the same fluid type?
3. How do you know which type of fluid is being applied to your aircraft? (or which type of surface the fluid is being applied on)

Hope I was clear despite my poor English :)
1. Not sure.
2. Because the fluid is made by different companies and they certify their own tables for their fluid. So a type 4 from one company maybe different from a type 4 from a different company. Not very different, but it could be a couple of minutes here or there.
There are also generic tables, which maybe better suited for simming.
3. The ice team tells you what they used, including time of first application, and ratio of fluid 100% or 75%.
You can normaly get that info from the ground crew prior to starting the process so you can do the numbers before de-icing starts.
They de-ice all the iced areas, but tend to only anti-ice wings and the tail.

orionsbelt

6th Nov 2021, 17:47

Dear ELMS77W
I am not sure which world you live in, but its not the real world. You are playing a computer game, that's all you are doing. You are not flying an AEROPLANE.
Real Flight simulators are very useful tools, to practice emergencies and develop specialist skills, they are not toys.
The problem with young people like this is that you think this sort of roll play replaces real knowledge and real skills, which it does not. Its not real world, in the real world people get killed or badly hurt because somebody screws up because they feel invincible as the toy game does not kill them.
Yes learn to fly properly in the real world, with an experienced instructor who knows what he is doing!
***

Icanseeclearly

6th Nov 2021, 18:56

ELMS77W

You need to forget everything you think you have “learnt” on your home computer, you are not a pilot and have never landed an aircraft, the techniques and feel of a real aircraft cannot be replicated in a simulator. In the same way someone who plays “call of duty” has not been in combat you have not been in an aircraft.

As an ex military instructor, airline TRE and PPL instructor I have seen many simmers who think they have some ability who have no ability whatsoever and even had a couple tell me I am teaching them wrongly by telling them to look out of the windows…

I strongly suspect you are a troll as your story about being on the flightdeck and making radio calls would be unprofessional in the extreme.

rant over.

Maoraigh1

6th Nov 2021, 20:06

Slimming before your aviation medical is often advantageous though.:)

ELMS77W

7th Nov 2021, 00:19

FIC101

Last chap I sent first solo who was an avid Microsoft ‘airline pilot’ went in 7 hours. I cannot say it hampered him in anyway, apart from a poor understanding of maintaining aircraft balance with the rudder.
In my opinion, it really depends on how you're using your sim. I think I will quickly find out with my instructor if whether or not simming was good for me. This makes me even more impatient to start flying in real life.

pilotmike
Hillarious!! Amazing how easy it is to get past the locked door policy in MS sims! ZZZZzzzzzz. Dreamer.
Many companies allow people to go in the flight deck under certain conditions. Brussels Airlines accepted me multiple times, they even have a paper saying "you are in the cockpit" and a quick briefing about how to use the oxygen mask, reminding you it's prohibited to smoke, not speak to the pilots unless they are speaking to you, sterile cockpit rules, follow the captain in case of an evac and etc. Companies that accepted me: Beeline, TAP and Air France. They also accepted a friend of mine during a Jet Air flight. Most of them stopped doing it after the beginning of the pandemic. They are more likely to accept you if you kindly ask the cabin crew to give the letter you wrote for the pilots. It never worked when coming in and saying hey I want to fly with the pilots. Companies where I know it's strictly prohibited except on the ground: Ryanair, Emirates, Lufthansa, KLM, Czech Airlines, Air Malta, LOT, Easyjet. The excuses I sometimes got flying with Brussels or TAP: A learner is in the flight deck we don't have any seat avail / we're flying in a thunderstorm area / we have a delay and don't have time for that / no response.
Wait. You're learning something new from a simmer. It's impossible, you are the expert and I am the newbie who knows NOTHING about aviation. I should be lying that's the only explanation... Ask your type-rated and experienced colleagues flying for these companies they will tell you.
I'm wondering who's being arrogant here...

Pilot DAR
Actually over the air? That does require a radio operator's license.....
I don't know. That guy would probably have been in serious trouble if something happened during that flight.
You're probably 100% sure I'm lying and trolling... I know what I did, this is a fact and I can't do anything about it.

But... Chief pilots, when considering which candidate to hire, really do look to avoid hiring the type of pilot who bucks authority
Procedures are there for a reason. I don't have the ability to create procedures that are safer than the chief pilots' ones. I don't want to crash an airplane and kill hundreds of passengers. So I don't see any reason to bypass procs.

But, experienced pilots here are telling you that the learning path choices you're making for yourself are not in your best interests - for free!
The advice coming from them is really constructive and important. I will remember it when I start flying but the one I'm mostly going to listen to is my instructor as he's the one I will talk to in person and the one who knows definitely more about my flying skills than most of the ones here making suppositions and arrogantly believing they are 100% right on everything they are saying, included and especially the fact that I couldn't have been in any flight deck during a flight.

Less Hair
Flight schools have PC sort of simulators that are useful but might be considered boring by gamers.
The same simulators we're using at home?

FlightDetent
It did not sound arrogant to me on the first read, nor does it now. Unlike the posts that followed, pointing fingers at what you did not say.

Keep your chin up, but for heaven's sake do take the good advice written by others here (despite its unnecessary wrapping).
Well, I clearly showed them I was unlikely to follow this advice. Naturally, they made the conclusion that I wouldn't listen to my instructor at all. I'm glad you didn't find this arrogant :)
I will definitely take their comments into consideration though.

rmcdonal
1. Not sure.
2. Because the fluid is made by different companies and they certify their own tables for their fluid. So a type 4 from one company maybe different from a type 4 from a different company. Not very different, but it could be a couple of minutes here or there.
There are also generic tables, which maybe better suited for simming.
3. The ice team tells you what they used, including time of first application, and ratio of fluid 100% or 75%.
You can normaly get that info from the ground crew prior to starting the process so you can do the numbers before de-icing starts.
They de-ice all the iced areas, but tend to only anti-ice wings and the tail.
Almost forgot we were initially talking about deicing. Thanks a lot for your clear explanation. This definitely answers my question. :)

Orionsbelt
You are not flying an AEROPLANE.
I said before: "None of my flights online led to a crash but in the sim, there are tons of factors that are irrelevant but aren't IRL (icing for e.g.).", "I know I can't fly an airplane and can't land a 777 nor even a C172 like a type rated pilot would do.", "Even though it's not near a real PPL exam"
So yeah, I think I agree with you.

The problem with young people like this is that you think this sort of roll play replaces real knowledge and real skills
I said before: "I do not intend to prioritise my flight sim habits over advice from experts if it turns out that the way I am flying airplanes isn't correct.", "I know that training is always the first priority. If my instructor teaches me something I'll definitely not come in and say hey that's not what I learnt in the sim"
So no, I don't think it's my case. Other young people might be in the case though but not everyone. Thanks for your advice.

Icanseeclearly
I strongly suspect you are a troll as your story about being on the flightdeck and making radio calls would be unprofessional in the extreme.

Completely understandable. Don't know what are the regulations about it. Maybe he was allowed to do it? I have no idea.
I'm not trolling (definitely what a troll would say). If trolls take their time to make incredibly long answers to almost everyone like this and during now 4 days, then they should have got nothing better to do in their lives for sure.

Maoraigh1
Slimming before your aviation medical is often advantageous though.
Too late for me, I passed Class 1 about a year ago. :)
It's about to be expired but I don't really care since I only need class 2 to for PPL.

NaFenn

7th Nov 2021, 02:06

Flying in a sim before actual training can be beneficial - however theres a couple of things you need to bear in mind:

1. Flying a basic trainer in real llife is very different to flying in a simulator. The technique that you use in a sim won't work in the plane - listen to what your instructor tells you and follow it! I've had issues with sim students previously who spend way too much time looking inside at instruments in a VFR trainer because "its the propper way to fly"... it isn't.

2. Forget IFR procedures for a while, being able to follow a NAVAID will be beneficial eventually... but it won't help you read a map.

3. "But in the sim" won't fly with an instructor... they're telling you things you need to hear/follow - Don't discount that information because "but in the sim", you'll be wasting your money and their time.

Big Pistons Forever

7th Nov 2021, 03:39

I one had a student who was convinced that he already knew how to fly because he had 1000 hrs on MS Flight Sim. When I suggested that was actually not very good preparation he was quite offended so on the first lesson I flew us to the practice area and said I am going to fly a steep turn, enter and recover from slow flight and do a power off stall and recovery. After doing that I said you go ahead and do the same sequence since you seem convinced you already know how to do this it should not be hard for you Not surprisingly it did not go very well at all. After I had taken control over for the third time he turned to me genuinely puzzled why the sim experience did not translate to real thing.

I told him the sims are a game and real flying is not a game. We then spent the rest of the first lesson on attitudes and movements and the light went on. He never touched the sim again and turned out to be a good PPL.

wiggy

7th Nov 2021, 07:44

I think ELMS makes a valid point in that it’s dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA..

To ELMS:

With my ex-777 hat on (I had a few thousands hours on the machine) I’ve yet to see any PC based sim that accurately replicates the handling…..switches, etc may well all be roughly in the right place, yes you can run checklists, but there’s a lot left missing that simply can’t be replicated at home. Even a very expensive fixed base trainer as used at times in some training establishments don’t really cut it…as somebody mentioned upthread when flying there are some subtle cues/effects provided by motion (real or simulated) that cannot be replicated in something stuck to the floor or desk.

With my ex instructor (basic jet) hat on I can see you have been offered, for free, lots of good advice from many previous posters. Above all early day’s it’s all about attitude, in more ways than one…:E.

Heston

7th Nov 2021, 08:56

Look let's be clear about this. You cannot learn much about how to fly an aeroplane at home on a PC based SIM. And most of what you do learn is wrong or at least inappropriate for what you'll do in a small training aeroplane. It's a waste of your time and money - which would be better saved towards flying lessons. But it's fun to play computer games - that's ok.
There are two reasons why you can't learn that way1. Sims just aren't good enough (lots of posts above say this)
2. You need an instructor to teach you which you don't have at home (not so many posts have made this point)

I wonder if the OP has heard back from his aeroclub yet - I'd expect that first lesson to be booked by now. Perhaps he can let us know how it goes...

FlightDetent

7th Nov 2021, 11:22

I think ELMS makes a valid point in that it’s dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA...Kind words, still, spade if by any other name... Having jump seated on some of the mentioned for various reasons and positions of authority, i.a.w. the applicable rules, I'd bet half bitcoin there are no provisions for general pax without at least prior security vetting and registration. As well, the UK rules apply to anyone entering the UK airspace AFAIK. Sure, some of the Mediterranean rim companies have a reasonable arrangement for active crew or airline employees, but even that is not without restrictions.

Yet there is a nice point in this. A safety card provided to supernumerary flight deck occupants is a neat way of complying with the requirement for the safety briefing before flight. It's existence alone does not yet imply bringin general public visitors for a ride is de rigueur. No egos hurt by the OP wrongly assuming the opposite, but it is the exact problem flight simming will bring - putting cart before the ox and being perfectly clueless about it.

Hopefully by the time he touches a real airplane, the flight simming hobby will slide backwards due to the sheer excitement and learning opportunities the physical experience brings.

As was the case for many.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/570x436/psion_f5ce99f80cbdf11b19250ccbd9589d32a1025483.png

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/288x238/psion_flight_simulation_on_zx_spectrum_fee9d5ee88cf264eff913 152945ca7a9edceb79e.png
Feeling old, yet?

ELMS77W

7th Nov 2021, 12:33

NaFenn
Completely agree with you. Sims can help you to remember flows and understand airplane systems only if the airplane is correctly replicated which is not always the case. Sim also made me familiar with things like TAF, METAR, NOTAMs and phraseology. That's what I believe the sim is there for as much as you use it correctly. I mean these more theoretical aspects. Sims won't tell you how to actually fly the airplane. It's quite easy to fly an airplane in heavy turbulence in the sim but how is it in real life when your head and your arms that are holding the control column and the throttle are shacking all over the place and you can't see anything? I don't know. How to recover from stall? I don't know. How to land? Many pilots can give you a throughout explanation and you can always try to practise it in the sim but will I be able to do it in real life? I don't know.
How will I be able to do it? By listening to my instructor.

Big Pistons Forever
I wonder how it's gonna be for me

Wiggy
I think ELMS makes a valid point in that it’s dangerous to assume everybody around the world (or even Europe) has a flight deck access policy that is a clone of that enacted by the UK or the USA..
In fact, I never went able to access the flight deck from US or UK based operators.

I’ve yet to see any PC based sim that accurately replicates the handling…..switches, etc may well all be roughly in the right place, yes you can run checklists, but there’s a lot left missing that simply can’t be replicated at home.
Yes and the PMDG 777 is a great example. I went able to find much stuff that was not matching the manuals. There are also things that just can't be simulated like ACARS, SATCOM or even the cabin crew or the fire trucks in emergencies. Talking about checklists, the CCD is not working and is being replaced by your mouse because it would be quite difficult for simmers to do it like in real life. I highly doubt the PMDG handles as the real 777 would. I would say 90% of the things being simulated are well replicated despite all the glitches. Most real 777 pilots I heard giving their opinion about the add on were impressed and quite surprised by how much things were close to real life. I know a few pilots use it to practise flow and stuff like this but it will never replace curriculum.

With my ex instructor (basic jet) hat on I can see you have been offered, for free, lots of good advice from many previous posters. Above all early day’s it’s all about attitude, in more ways than one…file:///C:/Users/Noah/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif.

Yes, tons of great advice. That's why being curious and listening to others whether they are or aren't more experienced than me will make me able to improve constantly because you will never stop learning even with thousands of hours of flying. I'm still quite surprised by the attitude of some people here saying things that I never said and comparing me to a duck quacking.

Heston
You need an instructor to teach you which you don't have at home (not so many posts have made this point)
I just can't count the hundreds of times I were doing things in the sim and wondering am I doing it right? The only way to get the answer is to ask or see how real pilots would do in a similar situation.

I wonder if the OP has heard back from his aeroclub yet - I'd expect that first lesson to be booked by now. Perhaps he can let us know how it goes...
Definitely planning to do it.
Now I got a question coming to my mind.
I visited 2 aeroclubs.
The first one, we did one hour and the roads, arrived at the site, there was no one. He said he thought we were coming to another date and admitted he didn't place it correctly on his agenda after realising messages we exchanged with each other were saying something different to his agenda. Fine, we came back a week later.
The second, we went here and they put me in contact with an instructor saying he would take me for an initiation flight. When trying to find a date he didn't answer my messages. I came back to him later and he said he was not answering me because the weather wasn't appropriate. I said fine, when do you want to fly? He said I am on vacation I'll get back to you as soon as I come back. Never heard of him since...
Now I asked by email for an inscription in France. Got a form from them I had to fill out. I gave them the form completed and never got an answer. Sent them another email, no answer. My friend flying there asked them what was going on, they said it was a normal process and they would come back to me really soon. Two weeks later, nothing from them.
So here comes my question: do aeroclubs care about having new students? It just feels like they don't want me to pay them to learn how to fly.

FlightDetent
Hopefully by the time he touches a real airplane, the flight simming hobby will slide backwards due to the sheer excitement and learning opportunities the physical experience brings.
Believe it or not, I hate flight simming. It's just boring but unfortunately, my parents aren't rich enough to give me immediate access to real flying so instead, I'm simming. I think with time, my simming hobby is likely to slowly slide backwards.

Big Pistons Forever

7th Nov 2021, 15:30

FIC101

7th Nov 2021, 16:22

Personally I think it’s wonderful that you are about to learn to fly, especially at aged 19. Your experience with two local schools is indicative of the appalling standards that some schools operate to, be prepared for it.

On flight instructor courses I teach two aspects which I claim are unique to my courses, Customer Service and Duty of Care. Some of the respondents to your initial post would do well to dwell on both aspects themselves.

Of course you will pick up bad habits from flying a simulator but so what. Car drivers brake with their right foot only but that habit doesn't prevent a FI teaching them how to use both brakes to control an aircraft. All new students try to taxi steer the aircraft with aileron but again any FI can teach them not to. The natural reaction in a well developed wing drop stall is to pull back when you get a windshield full of ground but again any decent FI can overcome that with proper teaching.

The problem is that too many FI’s (apart from not understanding customer service) can only instruct to ‘fly by numbers’ with a rehearsed script. Teaching is a creative art and every student is a unique product of biological engineering, put those together and you should be able to teach anyone to fly, regardless of their limitations,bad habits etc..

In response to your icing questions

Holdover Times depend on the type of precipitation falling ( if any) after de icing and obviously time. On a few occasions I’ve had to return to stand after 30 minutes due to the temperature and falling snow (as an example of the most limiting time).

I know what the mix of fluid and water and the temperature is because the handling agent gives me a copy of the deicing operation, it’s from this that I can work out the holdover time.

Good luck with your training

Genghis the Engineer

7th Nov 2021, 17:09

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/288x238/psion_flight_simulation_on_zx_spectrum_fee9d5ee88cf264eff913 152945ca7a9edceb79e.png
Feeling old, yet?

Definitely, I had the much cruder version in B&W on my ZX81.

G

MidlifeCrises

7th Nov 2021, 17:47

Recently qualified PPL here, who used a home sim a fair bit. I'll stick to the points that I think will help you in your initial training.

Your thirst for knowledge and experience has lead you to playing with sims, this is really positive. Apply that same energy to studying the PPL syllabus and absorbing what your instructor tells you and you'll do well.
Forget all the jet stuff. You need that capacity for other things, like using a whizz wheel, quick mental maths, acronyms and rules of thumb.
Don't mention sims at the flight club or to your instructor, at least until you are nearly qualified and have earned their trust via many hours of safe flying & sound decision making.
Many pilots are luddites at heart with a healthy distrust of technology, not least because it might try to kill them in the air!

Nevertheless, I feel some carefully targeted sim time at home can help you to achieve specific learning objectives. Most of the relevant objectives are in the second half of the typical PPL syllabus.
The sim can't teach you handling beyond the absolute basics and may actually hinder you in that area. You might as well use autopilot in the sim.
The sim can't teach you how to land, you might as well start and finish each sim session at circuit height above your home airfield.

Get a sim that replicates your home airfield, training area and aircraft as closely as possible. I recommend P3D with the A2A Cherokee and ORBX TrueEarth scenery. This will cost a bit of money, but less than a single hour's lesson.
You need all the landmarks in your local area, especially chimneys and wind turbines, major roads and rivers, accurate boundaries for forests and settlements. Don't bother with MSFS 2020.
An ultrawide monitor would be nice, otherwise you're stuck with using the hat switch to look around (and you must be looking >180 degrees all around, all the time).

In the sim you can practice the following:

- Inflight memory procedures and checks (FREDA, HASELL, pre landing, EFATO, PFL)
- Getting the correct sight picture at various points in the circuit
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. Practice applying mid track correction and unplanned diversions with real-world wind.
- Operating the radios and nav aids using real-world VOR/DME/NDB frequencies. VOR tracking
- Communicating with ATC via VATSIM. Speaking to a real person, requesting and obtaining services and clearances and making position reports. The syntax and terminology used is generally accurate and you will build confidence on the radio.
- The small "Instrument Appreciation" component of a typical PPL syllabus

I haven't used the sim since qualifying, however I anticipate that I'll continue to fly unfamiliar routes prior to embarking "for real".

MidlifeCrises

7th Nov 2021, 18:35

Definitely, I had the much cruder version in B&W on my ZX81.

G

I have fond memories of something similar on my Amstrad CPC (green screen only :(), thankfully things have moved on somewhat. I would post a more representative pic but unfortunately I don't have the requisite 10 posts yet!

Heston

7th Nov 2021, 19:28

Definitely planning to do it.

So here comes my question: do aeroclubs care about having new students? It just feels like they don't want me to pay them to learn how to fly.

.

You may have had your first real flying lesson!
At least in the UK at the moment the answer is No, aeroclubs don't really care about having new students. Particularly ones who say they are "definitely planning to do it".
They'll care when you ask to book a lesson.
Folk at flying clubs can tell good strong enquiries from general interest, tyre-kicker ones. They know they'll waste loads of time if they don't do this triage effectively.
You'll get a better response if you appear to really mean it - I know this sounds like poor marketing on their side, and it is. But then they're probably at full capacity anyway.

Less Hair

7th Nov 2021, 21:06

Instructors want to see you do exactly what and how they showed you to fly. They need to trust you to do nothing else. They will send you on solo flights when you are still a student looking for you and the aircraft and weather before.
The easiest way for you would be to forget the sim and honestly start from scratch at a school. When you are a newbie ATPL pilot later on and finally go to some airline sim check for a job they will tell you how THEY want it and then they want to see you do it their way. This might even vary between instructors. Be ready to just follow. It is a long way but it is fun too. Don't think you know anything better because of the sim. That was a game only.

ELMS77W

7th Nov 2021, 22:02

BPF
Please do report on how your first flight in a real airplane goes.
Will do it.

FIC101
Thanks for your advice, thanks for answering my questions and enjoy your time on the forum!

Midlifecraises
Apply that same energy to studying the PPL syllabus and absorbing what your instructor tells you and you'll do well.
Passion is the thing that will keep energising me.

In the sim you can practice the following:
- Inflight memory procedures and checks (FREDA, HASELL, pre landing, EFATO, PFL)
- Getting the correct sight picture at various points in the circuit
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. Practice applying mid track correction and unplanned diversions with real-world wind.
- Operating the radios and nav aids using real-world VOR/DME/NDB frequencies. VOR tracking
- Communicating with ATC via VATSIM. Speaking to a real person, requesting and obtaining services and clearances and making position reports. The syntax and terminology used is generally accurate and you will build confidence on the radio.
- The small "Instrument Appreciation" component of a typical PPL syllabus

Taking notes.

Heston
Alright so basically I will need to harass them if I want to get something form them.

Less Hair
This might even vary between instructors. Be ready to just follow.
This is what frustrates me the most. My instructor might tell me something that another one finds completely stupid but I still need to agree with mine just because it's mine and the other one is not.

rarelyathome

7th Nov 2021, 22:04

On flight instructor courses I teach two aspects which I claim are unique to my courses, Customer Service and Duty of Care. Some of the respondents to your initial post would do well to dwell on both aspects themselves.

I can assure you your 2 aspects are not unique to you.

Wizofoz

7th Nov 2021, 22:39

ELMS77W - the FAA defines five hazardous attitudes and provides tips on how to overcome them.

Here's my suggestion - stop with the sim. Go fly a glider. A lot. Get a glider license. Learn aerobatics. At this point you've trained yourself to look almost exclusively outside. Now go learn to fly an airplane.

My thoughts exactley- gliding is by far the best introduction to basic attitude flying..

I had a convo recently with a student who posted a picture of (Gasp!!) a malfunctioning AI in a piper and how it was going to stop him have his next flying lessson.

When asked why it would ground him-' "Because we were going to practice steep turns"!!!

I weep....

Pilot DAR

7th Nov 2021, 22:40

This is what frustrates me the most. My instructor might tell me something that another one finds completely stupid but I still need to agree with mine just because it's mine and the other one is not.

Don't worry about it, you won't know the difference, should there be one. Both instructors are teaching to an approved curriculum, and have your best interests and success at heart, even if their approaches are not identical. Your skill set at this point does not enable you to judge the quality of instruction, nor will it matter. The skills are very basic. When you're taking advanced bush flying training, you can consider how teaching methods suit you...

In the sim you can practice the following:
........
- Visual navigation and DR. Fly all your routes in the sim first, note what you should be seeing when you do them for real. ....

An element of this I do support is not the use of computer game simulators, but Google Earth. I'll admit, when I starter taking helicopter lessons, this was introduced to me (M my instructor didn't know I have 25 years of fixed wing flying experience - I did not talk that up!). Google Earth does allow you to visualize terrain and landmarks, useful if you're not used to that view. People may defend computer sim games this way, I have never played one, so have no opinion. But I do enjoy "traveling" with Google Earth.

Happily, when you begin your flight training, you'll be busy enough with, and interested in the real training material, you'll be eager to absorb it all as intended by the curriculum, and games will become that - just games. Step into the real world of piloting with us, and leave the games to those who will never fly. We pilots are demanding of pilot skill, because the environment can be very demanding, but it sure is fun! I did 1.5 hours this morning, of just bimbling, and touring around, seeing the sights of places I have not driven to so much because of the Covid. My things are changing while I'm not looking!

One other piece of advice: when you plan the day to go to the airport, try to plan a longer session that just your lesson - most of the day if you can. Just watch, and listen. Be very quietly present, you will absorb more. Many of us have being an "airport rat" as a part of our early heritage. It's surely not as easy these days, because of security, and that's a real shame, but, your being at the airport at all will expose you to the environment, and your eagerness will lead you to absorb quickly. Listen lots, smile lots, speak little. When you do speak, DO NOT DISCUSS SIMMING!, and telling people at the airport about cockpit visits will not lay a welcoming path for you either... just listen a lot...

Pugilistic Animus

8th Nov 2021, 00:43

Every student I had that flew MSFS did very poorly. I have never touched a sim in my life, except the ones that cost millions of dollars.

NaFenn

8th Nov 2021, 01:15

kghjfg

8th Nov 2021, 03:22

To the OP,

When you went to the apparently disinterested schools, you didn’t mention MSFS did you and your current virtual flying qualifications?

This thread starts with you stating you have taken some tests and licenses of PPL standard and that you even have an IR. It might be best not to say these things to an instructor at first!

I think the sentence that is worrying most people is

”I accept I can’t land a 777 like a type rated pilot, or even a C172”.

I think the point is, you can’t land a 777 or a C172 at all.

I have landed a number of different types of light aircraft, my nephew has a sim with a yoke, throttle etc levers and pedals.

I cannot land a light aircraft on his sim, in fact everything feels wrong and reacts wrong.
Very few skills are transferable between the two.

He can,.. he’s practised for hours, learning how to land his sim, embedding muscle memory, adjusting to how it reacts to his inputs.
He can also fly and land all sorts of vintage aircraft on his sim.

so, he can land a sim, but not a real aircraft, I can land a real aircraft but not his sim.

If he ever wants to land a real aircraft he will have to overcome a lot of learnt behaviour that’s wrong.

The key point is, you can fly and land a sim.
You need to stop saying you can land a 777 or a light aircraft (“though not as well as a type rated pilot” !!)

I tried to fly a model aircraft once, that’s hard, also nothing like flying a real aircraft.

Sims, model aircraft, aircraft… all take skill to fly, lots of it, but all demonstrably completely different.

Your belief that you can land an aircraft because you can land your sim, is as wrong as a pilot could land your sim because they can land an aircraft.

You know how hard it is to land your sim, hard isn’t it? You don’t believe a pilot could do it without relearning a whole bunch of stuff do you?

If you like your sim, you’ll love the true intricacies of a real aircraft, and it’s a bit more serious when there’s no pause button, no lay-by to pull into when things are going badly, and you could get hurt if you miss things.

Here’s a simple for instance, when flying small aircraft in the sim, how often do you apply carb heat? That could really hurt if you forget in the air.

rudestuff

8th Nov 2021, 12:35

fitliker

8th Nov 2021, 13:29

There is a reason why approved simulators are usually equipped with qualified instructors that have actual instructor time . Buy me a beer and I will tell you why .

There are four basic level of learning :
Rote
Understanding
Application
Correlation

What level do you think you are at ? How might you achieve the next level ?

A good pilot is always in training.

wiggy

8th Nov 2021, 14:23

So you find yourself in every pilots' fantasy scenario: Both pilots ate the fish and we need a hero.

Do you trust the 100 hour PPL or the 2000 hour SIM guy who knows the buttons, the modes, the flap schedule and can auto-land the **** out of a 777 with his eyes closed?

TBH it all depends. Does “sim guy” have a scooby do about the customer options? The subtle and not so subtle differences between fleets/even within fleets and when/if those differences matters. Does he she recognize these differences when he he/she is presented with this fictional flight deck…

Does sim “guy” know if we headed for somewhere where autoland is even an option…and does “sim guy” understand when it isn’t, and if it turns out it isn’t can they handle a non autoland option ….(maybe that’s when the PPL might be a better bet)…

There’s a real danger of too much knowledge being a dangerous thing.

For me, above all I’d hope that our hero understands enough about R/T (perhaps even has an R/T license), knows how to call for help, and recognizes when they are getting out of their depth before punching buttons.

reverserunlocked

9th Nov 2021, 03:32

I’m a PPL and flight simmer, plus I was involved in a fixed base public sim operation so I know a great many airline fellas who used to come along to instruct sessions.

The truth is a lot of the GA crowd are very sniffy about MSFS so it’s probably best to keep your trap shut for now.

The truth is that flying the 777 on the desktop is pretty much an exercise in systems management, as it mostly is in real life. There ain’t much hand flying to do, plus a desktop sim is incredibly poor at replicating the feel of the real thing anyhow.

That said, all of the youngish guys I know who fly for the airlines now use the more advanced simulator aircraft (PMDG/Flight Sim Labs) etc to practice before they do sessions in the real sim. The desktop is incredibly good at the procedural/flow/drills stuff, but it’s not remotely flying in the way that you’ll be learning for your PPL.

I’d keep your sim flying and real world flying entirely apart as you will need the mental capacity to learn skills that you’ll find harder to attain than shooting a VNAV approach in the 777. Dodging weather, RT, navigation and LOOKING OUT OF THE WINDOW are all things that you’ll need to get good at and fast.

There’s absolutely no question that being proficient in the sim will help you down the line, especially if you can replicate your aircraft type, local area and landmarks as rightly posted earlier. MSFS 2020 with satellite ground scenery and landmarks is a game changer in this area. But first things first. Do more listening than talking and do what you’re taught. Good luck!

ELMS77W

9th Nov 2021, 13:06

kghjfg

When you went to the apparently disinterested schools, you didn’t mention MSFS did you and your current virtual flying qualifications?

Never did it. Not that I knew I shouldn't mention it it's just that I didn't think about doing it.

This thread starts with you stating you have taken some tests and licenses of PPL standard and that you even have an IR. It might be best not to say these things to an instructor at first!
Wouldn't say these virtual licenses are of PPL standards but it's true that it covers the basics of the basics.
Yea got it! I will actually not talk about myself at all unless my instructor asks questions about me as stated multiple times by your colleagues. I did it here in the forum because it was my first post and I thought it would be great to make a quick presentation of myself and I was quite right because if I didn't I would never have got all these pieces of wonderful advice.

rudestuff
So you find yourself in every pilots' fantasy scenario: Both pilots ate the fish and we need a hero.

Do you trust the 100 hour PPL or the 2000 hour SIM guy who knows the buttons, the modes, the flap schedule and can auto-land the **** out of a 777 with his eyes closed?
I wouldn't be able to choose a preference personally. I would say both would do it but in a different way.
Now simmer is a big word. You can have simmer not doing it seriously and not caring about crashes and procedures and you have the others doing it ultra seriously and studying books constantly.
For a PPL you can be pretty confident he knows what every PPL should know.
A PPL would probably focus more on flying the airplane. A simmer would use the knobs and the buttons.
I think the best would be to have both, with the PPL the PF and the simmer the PM.

Does sim “guy” know if we headed for somewhere where autoland is even an option…and does “sim guy” understand when it isn’t, and if it turns out it isn’t can they handle a non-autoland option
Non-autoland option? I would struggle but if you find yourself in a position where every pilot in the airplane died and there are absolutely no airports accomodating cat3 in the current range of the aircraft (hoping the airplane is able for cat3), you are very unlucky then.

reverserunlocked
That's exactly what I think. I still believe my sim will be proficient at a certain point in my career especially for jets even though I might have got some bad habits through the sim.

Less Hair

9th Nov 2021, 19:47

Forget the game sim.
Here is some well done open MIT PPL course to prepare yourself:
https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-687-private-pilot-ground-school-january-iap-2019/

rudestuff

9th Nov 2021, 20:08

wiggy

10th Nov 2021, 04:03

Non-autoland option? I would struggle but if you find yourself in a position where every pilot in the airplane died and there are absolutely no airports accomodating cat3 in the current range of the aircraft (hoping the airplane is able for cat3), you are very unlucky then.

Just for completeness/being picky/pointing out a little knowledge might be a dangerous thing - in the context of that comment do you really mean a runway “accommodating cat 3” or do you actually mean a runway, which regardless of category, can accommodate an autoland?

If you mean the former then if you are unlucky enough to have your chicken eating crew fall ill in the final stages of a long sector then you may very easily find there is no airport “accommodating cat3” with the current range of the aircraft. A request for such would result in blank looks from ATC over large swaths of the world, including parts the States…

OTOH telling ATC you need a runway that will accommodate an autoland might be the better bet.

FWIW a lot of T7 flying at the airline where I worked was in the Caribbean, a lot of it on short shuttle sectors … where you were often not exactly overburdened with fuel and ILSs were relatively thin on the ground. That’s possibly one situation where your high hours PPL might well win out over your sim hero.

The above is all why I put an “it depends” in my first response to the posed “ but what if”…

Your zero real flight time sim hero might be the better bet if they are presented with the aircraft mid Atlantic, heading for London/Europe (and probably with plenty advice available on the R/T)as long as he/she didn’t accidentally disconnect the A/P in the excitement.…OTOH I can certainly imagine circumstances where somebody with a bit of real aircraft time might be the better option…..ultimately of course your best bet is neither of those, there really is a reason why real world qualifications which involve training on a real aircraft and/or a full motion flight sim exist.

double_barrel

10th Nov 2021, 05:22

Imagine the 100 hours PPL and the simmer together, one in each seat, each convinced they could save the day. That would be entertaining. It might be a good combination if they could work together, but somehow I think it would end in tears.

kghjfg

10th Nov 2021, 06:54

OP,

I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is?

do you apply it in the sim?

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 08:55

Never really had this issue during my time 'training', back in the day as my kids would remind me whilst rolling their eyes skyward! Computer flight sims were as seen earlier in the thread! (Aviator for the BBC micro anyone?)

I did have a couple of students who had PPL experience and what they gained from familiarity in the cockpit they lost in the time needed to re-train what were, at the time, considered 'bad habits'.

Personally, given the fidelity of modern computer sims, I can see that someone with obsessive large amounts of time 'in game' at the levels some of these online Airlines demand would have familiarity with the basic cockpit layout. However, then the real world intrudes with the myriad of distractions that modern flying is coupled with the differing SOP's of various companies.

If you enjoy the sim then crack on with it. Personally I would consider it exactly what it is, a game, and leave the references, experience and knowledge at the desk when turning up to fly in the real world. There is nothing worse than trying to teach someone complex, cascading malfunctions handling in a big jet multi crew environment when the ubiquitous 'but in my sim........' comment pops up! :}

Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well. :ok:

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 08:59

FWIW a lot of T7 flying at the airline where I worked was in the Caribbean, a lot of it on short shuttle sectors

Would that be something like the ANU/SKB no autopilot allowed, visual approaches only, see how quick you can do it sectors per chance? :} :ok:

Less Hair

10th Nov 2021, 09:00

Imagine somebody good at "Call of Duty" telling the Marines recruiter how experienced he already is.

Heston

10th Nov 2021, 09:03

There is nothing worse than trying to teach someone complex, cascading malfunctions handling in a big jet multi crew environment when the ubiquitous 'but in my sim........' comment pops up! :}

Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well. :ok:

Agreed. But also it's really hard teaching a novice to fly straight and level when they spend 80% of the time looking at the instruments and 20% telling you that the aeroplane isn't doing things right!

wiggy

10th Nov 2021, 09:04

Would that be something like the ANU/SKB no autopilot allowed, visual approaches only, see how quick you can do it sectors per chance? :} :ok:

You may think that, I cannot possibly comment :}:ok:

ATB…

(Hark…..is that sound I hear the hum of PCs being booted up)

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 09:07

You may think that, I cannot possibly comment :}:ok:

ATB…

(Hark…..is that sound I hear the hum of a PC being booted up)
16 Minutes I believe Wiggy, though, as you say, I couldn't possibly comment! :oh:

ATB!!!!

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 09:09

Agreed. But also it's really hard teaching a novice to fly straight and level when they spend 80% of the time looking at the instruments and 20% telling you that the aeroplane isn't doing things right!
Very true! Sorry, I sometimes forget my roots and the bastions of aviation, the local flight school instructors!!!!

FlightDetent

10th Nov 2021, 11:19

I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is? do you apply it in the sim? A keen game-simmer has no shortage of available knowledge and protocols.

Simmer community guidance (notable absence of stick measuring): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/correct-carburettor-heat-use/442141
Simmer complaining it's hard to find (he knows he needs it): https://forums.flightsimulator.com/t/carb-heat-152/350904
Simmer trying to setup his HW to control it (MS shipped the game wrongly with non-discrete config): https://forum.simflight.com/topic/90813-carburator-heat-in-the-cessna-152-ms2020/

Not all PC SIM players are simmers though.

Fact I observed, that many of the community-based document packages for VATSIM or IVAO are much better detail and quality than your average airline books. Peer-reviewed and open-source, there's indeed far greater resource available to get it done nice and neat, compared to your average 40% under-staffed FlightOps engineering. No egos hurt, strength in numbers and enthusiasm.

FlightDetent

10th Nov 2021, 11:43

Imagine somebody good at "Call of Duty" telling the Marines recruiter how experienced he already is. Oh well. Heaven forbid the US forces created their own game to recruit the person in the first place! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army [The game is financed by the U.S. government (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) and distributed by free download.]

Speaking of Marines, specifically (another trip down the memory lane, DOOM I & II)
... while nowhere near realistic — was intense and engaging, and promoted the kind of consistent, repetitive teamwork a Marine fireteam would employ in combat. While “Marine Doom” never became an official training tool, Marines were encouraged to play it, and it was sanctioned to be installed on government PCs. In 1997, Gen. Charles C. Krulak, who was the commandant of the Marine Corps at the time, issued a directive (http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCO%25201500.55.pdf) supporting the use of PC games for “Military Thinking And Decision Exercises.”

“, Bohemia Interactive Simulations broke off from Bohemia Interactive Studios, which is a gaming company. But [i]VBS is based on a couple of realistic games that the studio put out—Operation Flashpoint and ARMA." https://hub.fullsail.edu/articles/war-games-how-simulations-are-building-a-stronger-military

https://www.army.mil/article/235085/soldiers_maintain_readiness_playing_video_games
https://www.military.com/undertheradar/2016/05/6-military-video-games-used-to-train-troops-on-the-battlefield

Indeed, the key here is guided instruction.

Less Hair

10th Nov 2021, 12:11

Interesting. However still VERY far away from any physical military activity. Similar to simulated flight and actual flying.

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 13:00

I've always found that those who have just completed their type rating or licence are, generally, at their technical best. They certainly know far more about the aircraft from a technical standpoint than I do and are probably better at application of exact SOP's! :eek: I would imagine that simmers, of which my son is one, are pretty much the same. They know the technical aspects down to the final bolt, some of these guys and girls put A LOT of effort into replicating the 'real thing'!

However, when they meet the 'real world' with it's weather, no 'no jeopardy' flying (ground is really hard), ATC that doesn't follow prescripted rules, failures that even the manufacturer couldn't envisage, passengers, freight, ground equipment, blocked runways, contaminated runways, simply 'wrong' runways, late switches, US ATC (;):E), Australian ATC (:eek::E), LoCo's taxying at V1, ramp controllers, anything whatsoever to do with JFK in the winter including the Carnarsie approach in trash weather, etc. etc. etc. that's where the sim environment ends and the real world experience begins.

I'm still learning after 35 years of flying and I still crash my son's 777 when the computer doesn't do what the real aircraft would!!!!!

In summary, as I've stated before, personally I don't think having 'sim' experience is a bad thing but please, please, please leave it at the door of real life flying, insert new cassette and begin learning.

ATB

Wirbs!

Wirbelsturm

10th Nov 2021, 13:02

Oh well. Heaven forbid the US forces created their own game to recruit the person in the first place! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America%27s_Army [The game is financed by the U.S. government and distributed by free download.]

Speaking of Marines, specifically (another trip down the memory lane, DOOM I & II)
... while nowhere near realistic — was intense and engaging, and promoted the kind of consistent, repetitive teamwork a Marine fireteam would employ in combat. While “Marine Doom” never became an official training tool, Marines were encouraged to play it, and it was sanctioned to be installed on government PCs. In 1997, Gen. Charles C. Krulak, who was the commandant of the Marine Corps at the time,[url=http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/MCO%25201500.55.pdf] issued a directive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) supporting the use of PC games for “Military Thinking And Decision Exercises.”

“, Bohemia Interactive Simulations broke off from Bohemia Interactive Studios, which is a gaming company. But [i]VBS is based on a couple of realistic games that the studio put out—Operation Flashpoint and ARMA." https://hub.fullsail.edu/articles/war-games-how-simulations-are-building-a-stronger-military

https://www.army.mil/article/235085/soldiers_maintain_readiness_playing_video_games
https://www.military.com/undertheradar/2016/05/6-military-video-games-used-to-train-troops-on-the-battlefield

Indeed, the key here is guided instruction.

They scraped data to see who would be worth approaching for potential recruitment to START military training!!! I don't think anyone in the US military believed that they could plonk the gamer into the middle of a battlefield and expect them to perform the same! :E

Uplinker

10th Nov 2021, 16:18

Hi ELMS77W, you come across as a very keen and interested person to me. You would love to fly, and after years of learning about flying, are about to start your PPL. I wish you every luck, and honestly hope you do well.

My thoughts for what they are worth:

Light aircraft are totally different from big modern jets. Totally different. You will probably find the C152 or PA28 unbelievably crude, basic, cramped and uncomfortable. There is a huge difference between the shirtsleeves-and-coffee flying of a 777 to being squashed against the shoulders of an instructor in a noisy, cold/hot C152. Many things that the big modern jets do automatically for you have to be worked out manually, longhand in the GA aircraft, e.g. Wind velocity, direction and groundspeed. Carburettor icing, fuel mixture etc. To go from light aircraft to a big modern jet takes many years of experience and intensive training, both ground school and 6 axis simulators.

Professional, 6-axis simulators can be fairly realistic, but they cannot reproduce all the accelerations or the visual and audio cues of the real thing. I have got 7 different commercial type ratings on my licence, and I've always found flying the real thing to be a lot easier than the Sim. But I do know of people who got through the Sim, but could not fly the real thing.

A significant number of airline pilots and trainers have an attitude that they are cleverer and better than you, and they think that if you are new to the industry, you know nothing until they have taught you. This is true to an extent and you have an enormous amount of work ahead of you, but you have to let them have their ego - they will be signing your licence. So even though you might have more knowledge than some newbies, do not mention this or sim flying at all, and pretend not to know anything much about flying - certainly not anything deeply technical or operational, such as de-icing hold-over times etc. Be quiet, modest and unassuming. The instructor should tell you what to learn next, so follow their guide.

When I joined my second airline I was about 15 years older than most students and I had had a different career before flying. I mentioned this in conversation when getting to know my first big-jet instructor and he did not like it at all. I think he thought I was big-headed or something, so he gave me a very hard time, and also set some of the other TREs against me. Yet, I was never big headed about flying - always knowing and accepting that I was no ace, just an average Joe.

So, I would keep quiet about any deep knowledge or sim flying. If specifically asked, you could say you've had a go on a friends sim a few times.

The Trevor Thom books are very good for learning and understanding the PPL basics.

Good luck !

Edit: I should also have said that "flying" a desk-top simulator, is nothing like the real thing either. Nothing like it. If you have actual line experience of flying a big jet, then a simulator can be useful for procedural practise or checklist, or memory drill practise, but it really is not anything like the real thing. When flying real big jets, everything happens very very quickly; the novice on their first few hours on the line will find themselves running to keep up with the aircraft, and they go home mentally exhausted.
.

Pugilistic Animus

11th Nov 2021, 18:28

I believe that new pilots should fly the aircraft that they actually do fly. rather than the aircraft that they wish to fly!
also, flying with no g force sounds very boring.

Less Hair

11th Nov 2021, 19:33

One g should be guaranteed.

And if you order this seat you can progress to the F-35 without further training:
https://www.bsimracing.com/a-look-at-the-puresim-g-seat-mkii/

Pugilistic Animus

11th Nov 2021, 20:34

Quite interesting, indeed, the only problem is that it looks too comfortable:}

kghjfg

13th Nov 2021, 07:13

FlightDetent

13th Nov 2021, 10:33

Assimilation
Integration
.
.

BigEndBob

14th Nov 2021, 18:43

Thought it said slimming, i know a few students that need to.

Wirbelsturm

15th Nov 2021, 09:27

I have definitely the knowledge of a real 777 pilot https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/icon_rolleyes.gif (no I don't believe it myself but that's what I am trying to achieve)

This did make me chuckle! I see what you're trying to say but it's still has a slightly, shall we say, arrogant cast to it! :}

I've been flying the 777 for well over a decade and I am still learning! With the ubiquitous 'what the hell is it doing this time' phrase popping to mind! Given the mess Boeing have gotten themselves into over the past few years the amount of BAB's, notices and amendments cropping up has become, shall we say, substantial! Some of them fundamentally affecting the way we operate the aircraft!

I don't doubt for a second that you have good 'generic' systems and operational knowledge put please believe me that that knowledge is just a baseline compared to real operations. There is no where on T'internet where the full current and up to date operational limitations and amendments for the 777 are available. My son has searched everywhere!!! Beware using this sort of phrase around professional pilots as you will get bigger 'eye rolls' than a teenager on Tik Tok!

ATB

:ok:

Wirbelsturm

15th Nov 2021, 09:28

Thought it said slimming, i know a few students that need to.

That's exactly what I thought of myself last time I stepped into a flymo R22! :(

fitliker

15th Nov 2021, 18:54

How’s he going to achieve the next level if he is already at Correlation ?

Is it possible to get to Correlation without application ?
Might be possible in some full motion simulators , but not a computer based gamer set up .
The costs of most full motion simulators is a lot more expensive than your bug smasher trainer .

visibility3miles

17th Nov 2021, 20:55

I have not spent a lot of time on flight simulators, but I don’t think it could have really prepared me for unexpected thermals, nor gusty crosswind landings, nor stray traffic or nearby fires that obscured the runway.

I initially had a bad habit of “porpoising” on landings, i.e., over controlling, then getting too high then too low on approach. Alas, I almost made myself air sick until I finally learned to chill out and stare at that imaginary dot on the runway before my instructor and I finally got happy with my approach.

Maybe a sim could have helped with that,

Try flying an actual Cessna 152 on a hot day when the thermals keep bouncing you about when you try to maintain a steady altitude or approach,

I don’t think that learning to fly a 777 would help much.

Sim training might help you how to handle the radio in crowded airspace. Practice makes perfect, or at least better.

Hitting the push to talk switch or, in ancient times, picking up a mike to respond to air traffic controller is distracting.

In the sims I saw it seemed like one always had automatic clearance to enter controlled airspace and were cleared to land immediately wherever you wanted to go.

None of this: Say again? Divert to… Look out for traffic at… Please follow… You are number three behind… Watch out for deer on runway…

Or when as a private pilot you can’t get a word in edgeways and are not allowed to enter controlled airspace if the ATC is too busy.

Mariner9

18th Nov 2021, 08:01

It would be as useful as watching a box set of "Call the Midwife" in preparation for a career in Obstetrics. :)

SloppyJoe

19th Nov 2021, 13:52

You may have had your first real flying lesson!
At least in the UK at the moment the answer is No, aeroclubs don't really care about having new students. Particularly ones who say they are "definitely planning to do it".
They'll care when you ask to book a lesson.
Folk at flying clubs can tell good strong enquiries from general interest, tyre-kicker ones. They know they'll waste loads of time if they don't do this triage effectively.
You'll get a better response if you appear to really mean it - I know this sounds like poor marketing on their side, and it is. But then they're probably at full capacity anyway.

Just to add to the above. In your initial contact were you banging on about how much flight sim flying you do and the 777? If you were then they probably think you will be too much hard work.

RVF750

19th Nov 2021, 20:48

What a fascinating thread!

My 20p worth.

Although a home sim can teach you a lot about systems and check lists, it's very limited and practically pointless in handling. Almost all yokes, throttles and pedal setups are gaming devices, simply spring loaded and totally unlike a real aircraft (airbus excepted of course).

My own home sim has a VR headset, proper control loaded yoke and pedals and push/pull Cessna throttles. It trims like a realistic yoke, and can be setup for different aircraft. It takes the best part of 10 years of spare income to buy it though!
Good luck in your quest, just please please please don't try to impress your instructor.

Less Hair

20th Nov 2021, 06:36

It's a bit like having played with toy trains and feeling like a real engineer. "Oh, I know the Flying Scotsman quite a bit already."

Uplinker

20th Nov 2021, 10:09

I think it is commendable that the OP has learned something about the 777 - we should not quash their enthusiasm and interest - many ATPL pilots I know are not very interested or knowledgeable about how the aircraft systems work.

But hopefully the OP realises that there is a lot more to flying than what might be gleaned from a desk-top home Sim; especially light aircraft. Flying a Cessna 152/172 in VMC is incredibly crude and basic, like driving a Mark 1 Landrover or a 1960's Mini - no offence to Cessna or those marques. But even so, there is a hell of a lot going on, and tasks keep coming at you relentlessly. It takes a while to get to the stage where you can assimilate what is going on, and then get ahead of the aircraft, which is where you need to be: 'What is going to happen next, and what do I need to set up next?'.

Best to keep quiet about your Sim and accept that you know very little about actual real flying; but do stay keen and open-minded to the training ahead of you. Good luck !

Local Variation

20th Nov 2021, 18:56

But hopefully the OP realises that there is a lot more to flying than what might be gleaned from a desk-top home Sim; especially light aircraft. Flying a Cessna 152/172 in VMC is incredibly crude and basic!

Indeed, and even more of a challenge in thick claggy IMC trying to track your way to TNT, all whilst writing stuff down.

Uplinker

21st Nov 2021, 10:58

The OP should read the AAIB report for Light aircraft down in the Lake District , Cumbria, in the accidents thread:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6194f6a38fa8f50384489a16/Cessna_FRA150L_Aerobat_G-CIIR_12-21.pdf

Although this was a fatal accident, the report gives a really good explanation of all the issues and considerations involved with flying a light aircraft. I recommend that you read the report very thoroughly. It will give you a good overview.

Pilot DAR

22nd Nov 2021, 11:57

Well done ELMS, hang in there, and appreciate those who share their wisdom here!

ELMS77W

22nd Nov 2021, 11:57

Here we go!

Less Hair
Forget the game sim.
Here is some well done open MIT PPL course to prepare yourself:

Thanks for the link but these are FAA documents. Don't know if there are some variations between EASA and FAA but I believe there are.

rudestuff
whilst there are probably people out there who don't even have a licence but who have read the FCOM and FCTM back to front 10 times because it is their passion.
This is me. :8

wiggy
Just for completeness/being picky/pointing out a little knowledge might be a dangerous thing - in the context of that comment do you really mean a runway “accommodating cat 3” or do you actually mean a runway, which regardless of category, can accommodate an autoland?

If you mean the former then if you are unlucky enough to have your chicken eating crew fall ill in the final stages of a long sector then you may very easily find there is no airport “accommodating cat3” with the current range of the aircraft. A request for such would result in blank looks from ATC over large swaths of the world, including parts the States…

OTOH telling ATC you need a runway that will accommodate an autoland might be the better bet.
Yea didn't use the words there I agree. We can autoland on CAT1 actually couldn't we? Correct me if I am wrong but I think pilots practise autoland from time to time even when it's not necessary for example to test the aircraft or other reasons.

kghjfg
I did ask a few questions in my posts, out of interest, do you know what carb heat is?

do you apply it in the sim?
Never heard it before until doing some researches. I am wondering why it has never been mentioned in any of the lights I flew on the sim. That feature is not present on every general aviation airplanes is it? I mean it's always there but is it not made automatically? When researching for it I found out that many instructors were quite surprised and amused to see how very few simmers were able to explain what this is.

Wirbelsturm
Treat the 'real world flying' as a complete novice and I'm sure you will enjoy it and progress well.
Yes exactly and if with a bit of luck my instructor tells me something I learnt in the sim then it can only be beneficial but the sim won't be THE reference.

FlightDetent
Simmer community guidance (notable absence of stick measuring):
Simmer complaining it's hard to find (he knows he needs it):
Simmer trying to setup his HW to control it (MS shipped the game wrongly with non-discrete config):
Now I know what carbo heat is.

Fact I observed, that many of the community-based document packages for VATSIM or IVAO are much better detail and quality than your average airline books. Peer-reviewed and open-source, there's indeed far greater resource available to get it done nice and neat, compared to your average 40% under-staffed FlightOps engineering. No egos hurt, strength in numbers and enthusiasm
If they are then how comes that some people here are convinced that sim doesn't help AT ALL? I read tons of IVAO documents in the past, mostly for the exams I passed and you're saying that these documents are actually more detailed than airline books. Someone who studied really detailed books will definitely have a good background when starting his training, that seems obvious to me. As I said now thousands of times, I will listen to my instructor, not mention my sim at all and we'll see how it goes. I might have bad habits, I might have good habits, I don't know. I'll find out with my instructor.
All I can say is that I know many pilots who are still impressed by the level of realism just by flying on VATSIM and some of them are still using desktop sims to practise SOPs and flows.
There are limitations in the sim of course and I mentioned these already. I know I'm not a 777 pilot and can't land an airplane at the moment.

Wirbelsturm
In summary, as I've stated before, personally I don't think having 'sim' experience is a bad thing but please, please, please leave it at the door of real life flying, insert new cassette and begin learning.

Will do it :ok:

Uplinker
I've always found flying the real thing to be a lot easier than the Sim.
Thanks for your kind words. I have a friend flying in the desktop sim. He started flying in real life recently and was quite surprised by how easier it is to fly a real airplane in comparison to the sim. It's easier to land or just to maintain an altitude because you wouldn't do it only based on numbers (causing bad habits to only look at your instruments) but also on the sensations, the feelings and all the stuff you can't have on desktop sims. I remember how much he was struggling when we asked him to maintain an altitude. In real life, it's easy, a piece of cake. That's what he said and hopefully, it's gonna be the same for me.

A significant number of airline pilots and trainers have an attitude that they are cleverer and better than you, and they think that if you are new to the industry, you know nothing until they have taught you. This is true to an extent and you have an enormous amount of work ahead of you, but you have to let them have their ego - they will be signing your licence. So even though you might have more knowledge than some newbies, do not mention this or sim flying at all, and pretend not to know anything much about flying - certainly not anything deeply technical or operational, such as de-icing hold-over times etc. Be quiet, modest and unassuming. The instructor should tell you what to learn next, so follow their guide.

Let them have their ego and take away your ego that's the thing. :)

I should also have said that "flying" a desk-top simulator, is nothing like the real thing either. Nothing like it. If you have actual line experience of flying a big jet, then a simulator can be useful for procedural practise or checklist, or memory drill practise, but it really is not anything like the real thing. When flying real big jets, everything happens very very quickly; the novice on their first few hours on the line will find themselves running to keep up with the aircraft, and they go home mentally exhausted.
.
I fully agree.

kghjfg

How’s he going to achieve the next level if he is already at Correlation ?

Rebegin everything again! Always learning new stuff.

Wirbelsturm
This did make me chuckle! I see what you're trying to say but it's still has a slightly, shall we say, arrogant cast to it!
Just a little bit. :}
But I am not the only one being arrogant on this thread :)
Seriously, how could I be a 777 pilot when I never flew one? So many things that can't be simulated in a desktop sim like coms for eg. My knowledge is limited to books only. Now I have to practice in the real one if I want to be close to real pilots.

I've been flying the 777 for well over a decade and I am still learning!
I am too, even in the sim. Sometimes I can discover so many things in a small period of time that I say I know absolutely nothing about aviation. And sometimes, when a non-aviation enthusiast comes here and asks me something incredibly simple that I thought everyone knew like how to read a PFD, I feel like the king of aviation.:rolleyes:
This industry is rich and you'll never stop learning. I don't think there is a king. You have to talk with people and accept to learn from everyone literally, even a poor guy who has never heard of airplanes before. Work as a team. That's how you will be a good pilot.

visibility3miles
None of this: Say again? Divert to… Look out for traffic at… Please follow… You are number three behind… Watch out for deer on runway…

I am wondering on which network you flew then. Okay, except for the deer.

SloppyJoe

Just to add to the above. In your initial contact were you banging on about how much flight sim flying you do and the 777? If you were then they probably think you will be too much hard work.
Never did it. Just said I wanted to study for my PPL. I think I answered that question previously but never mind.

RVF750

Good luck in your quest, just please please please don't try to impress your instructor.
I will try to impress my instructor... By flying like he wants me to fly :8

Uplinker

Best to keep quiet about your Sim and accept that you know very little about actual real flying; but do stay keen and open-minded to the training ahead of you. Good luck !
If I already know everything then my training course will be really boring. So many things to discover about my passion and that's what makes it exciting!

Uplinker
The OP should read the AAIB report for Light aircraft down in the Lake District , Cumbria, in the accidents thread:

Although this was a fatal accident, the report gives a really good explanation of all the issues and considerations involved with flying a light aircraft. I recommend that you read the report very thoroughly. It will give you a good overview.

I love reading reports!

ELMS77W

22nd Nov 2021, 12:00

Well done ELMS, hang in there, and appreciate those who share their wisdom here!

Love it! Really constructive. I do definitely not regret signing up here! :}

Heston

22nd Nov 2021, 12:49

"....am about to start my PPL training really soon, just waiting for the answer from my aeroclub..."

From the first post on the thread. 3rd November. Nearly three weeks ago. Even the slackest aeroclub should have gotten back to you with some dates for that all important first lesson by now. If they haven't, I'd think about making some enquiries other places. No?

ELMS77W

22nd Nov 2021, 22:10

Well they got a communication issue because the president recently changed and the old president who is apparently the one who has to take my inscription has never heard of me. Anyway, I got in contact with him so hopefully next week I will be ready for my first lesson!

Pilot DAR

23rd Nov 2021, 01:52

Never heard it before until doing some researches. I am wondering why it has never been mentioned in any of the lights I flew on the sim. That feature is not present on every general aviation airplanes is it? I mean it's always there but is it not made automatically? When researching for it I found out that many instructors were quite surprised and amused to see how very few simmers were able to explain what this is.--
This is a good example of how getting right into simming a big jet can completely steer you away from what you need to know for flying GA planes safely. Failure to understand carb heat and correctly applying it will cause you an engine failure at the least convenient time one day!

Some GA planes have a carb heat some don't - which are which and why?
What is the relationship to carb heat and alternate air?
Do planes which do not have carb heat still have alternate air?
Do planes have an alternate air control if not a carb heat control?
What information is necessary for you to apply partial carb heat?
If you apply carb heat for a rough running engine, and the engine then runs worse, what should you do? Why? For how long?
If you apply carb heat, and it's not enough, what two engine controls can you adjust to get a little more carb heat? Adjust how?
When might you need to urgently apply carb heat, but have not encountered carb icing conditions?
Why should you never use carb heat while taxiing?
If your plane is equipped with an indicator associated with carb heat, what is that indicator?
What does the yellow arc on that indicator mean? Where will the yellow arc be on the scale? Will there be any green or red lines on that indicator?
Will a piston engined airplane which does not have a carb heat control always have an electric fuel pump? Why?
Could an airplane which does have an electric fuel pump also have a carb heat control?
Where does the heat resulting from the application of carb heat come from?
If you have had an engine failure, will applying carb heat help you get it started again? Why?
What would be a practical warm outside air temperature where you would be unconcerned about carb icing?
What other atmospheric factors will affect carb icing?
Can you get carb icing on the ground?
If you're flying in very well below freezing air, is carb heat a risk?

Instead of an evening at the sim, invest that evening to research the foregoing questions, and come back to us with your thoughts. (Hint - one evening won't be enough!) What you learn about carb heat, the atmosphere, and induction systems to answer these questions will save your life one day, and please your instructor no end when you can articulate the answers correctly.

Depending upon how comprehensive your answer, I'll offer to make this into its own carb heat thread, 'cause it could very easily be its own topic. Your commitment to begin with this topic will get you a lot of wisdom from posters here with life experience with the use of carb heat (or not :uhoh:).

FlightDetent

23rd Nov 2021, 04:19

Too much wisdom, perceived or real, is a dangerous thing for one's ego. Turns many young talents into acute backpains. This might actually recoil on him when meeting his instructor with the same disdain we've seen above repeatedly since the thread started.

That knowledge will find him when the time comes.

100+ posts telling the lad how wrong he is, come on. Time to move on - #simNOTsin.

The only advice/question we should be asking: After you reach the goal and become a real widebody pilot, do you understand the consequences and (missed)opportunities of living a life as one?

He should be studying Ruby / Go / Node.js, not carburettor heat.

Uplinker

23rd Nov 2021, 10:33

@Pilot DAR; that is a very comprehensive set of questions about carb heat - wow !
I could not answer all of them despite 20 + years of aviation experience ! (Mostly gas turbine aircraft admittedly).

But the OP not knowing what carb icing is does not make them bad or stupid; When I was little my Dad would sit me on his lap and let me steer the car along the farm-track we lived on, while he did the gears and pedals. When I was slightly older I read books about how cars worked, including electrics, the engine, gearbox, brakes and choke etc. and probably knew more about the technical side of cars than many drivers do.

But I could not drive. When I was older, I was allowed to drive the car by myself along the track, but I was still not a legal driver and had no appreciation of speeds above about 15mph or how to negotiate traffic flows, signalling and the legalities and hazards of driving on the roads. But I was and am keen on driving and my technical knowledge helped inform me when I did pass my test and became a legal driver.

Pilot DAR

23rd Nov 2021, 11:13

But the OP not knowing what carb icing is does not make them bad or stupid

Certainly not! But, I opine that every student pilot has to have a basic knowledge (perhaps 1/3 of the questions I posed) before being ready for PPL exams. Thereafter, as the PPL continues on to more advanced GA airplanes, at least the next third of my posed questions would become applicable to the airplane they aspire to fly. And, the eager young mind, who started off inquiring about hold over time for deicing/anti icing fluid (not my strong skill set) should be aware that there's some much more basic systems knowledge which is more important to what they will fly first.

I remember being involved professionally in the investigation and commenting of the accident report for a Cessna 207 I had flown quite a bit before the other pilot's fatal accident. Among the things in the draft report (which apparently passed many eyes before it got to me) was a longish paragraph in the report, stating that the pilot had not selected carb heat, how that was an error, and how it might have been a factor. The Cessna 207 does not have a carburetor. The investigator had ample time to research this, and he even resisted my correction. I challenged him to look for the carb heat control on the depiction of the instrument panel in the POH, and that began to swing him around.

One of my early certification projects was to convert a Cessna 185 to have a carburetor, including designing and testing to approval, a carb heat system, and writing a flight manual supplement as to how to use it. I genuinely hope to swing the OP around to an interest in the systems and piloting of airplane types he/she will first encounter as a student, and build the good habit of learning what you'll be flying, rather than learning something else which distracts you from learning what you'll be flying, and then thinking the basic systems are unimportant. Carb heat is kind of the second cousin in the GA cockpit, some people seem to think it unimportant. The OP displays an interest in research, carb heat is an excellent starter topic to research!