Another Bank Runner Bites the Dust

[kimwest]

That rule, usually called the inevitable, has apparently struck again. Seemingly Maitland/Bankstown based bankrunner had receivership appointed yesterday at 1100.
Feel sorry for the guys and gals working for them, some of whom are owed holiday pay, etc., not to mention the surrounding businesses owed dough.
It makes a mockery of CASA's stated intent to apply a financial performance test to all operators.
Any more news from anyone???

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Is that Cirrus aviation that has gone under?

Hung over sincerely, Dougy

[JULIET WHISKEY]

Must have got a tad tired of sleeping with one eye open!

Goes around Comes Around.....

No doubt start up as something else...

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Jeeezzz Juliet Whiskey tell us how you really feel!!

[Torres]

Is it really surprising when the last rates I saw bank runners in general must be operating below cost, not paying pilots, fudging on maintenance and being further penalised for late arrivals?

This comment is a general comment about what freight companies pay. It is not intended to reflect on whatever company has gone tits up, of which I have no knowledge.

Regardless, I'm sure another operator or two will rush into the fray to accept remuneration below their operating cost.

[gaunty]

Torres

'twas ever thus.

as usual the the score is Bank 1 Aviation 0.

Commbank just released a $2.6 billion profit, they wouldn't even be able to find the line in their accounts for the bankrunners with a 10X magnifying glass.

But you cant blame em really, it's the Dilberts in the industry who fight so very fiercely amongst themselves for the opportunity to go broke.:rolleyes:

They are just asking for the shafting, but wait, in a minute you'll hear the same old Greek chorus start up in a minute, about CASA , ASA enroute charges and Airport fees being responsible for their demise,

It's much easier to do that than sell your service for the right price and if the right price is not competitive with other means then you dont have a business, just a very expensive indulgence.

I wonder which set of creditors copped it this time, IMHO aviation creditors who still advance credit to aviation companies operating these services, deserve a special place in the loony bin.

kimwest asks a relevant question re CASA, problem is they don't have anyone on board who would really know where to look.

Must be something in the water.:p

[Torres]

Gaunty. I didn't even bother to "rise to the bait" about CASA's "assessment" of an operator's financial status. Having seen their requirements and watch CASA "financially approve" insolvent operators I didn't consider it worthy of comment.

It's one of the few tasks they manage to do even worse than regulatory re-write.

Bank running is: old, tired aircraft; cross hired aircraft; un paid or under paid pilots; paying for endorsements; paying for "ICUS"; overloading; fudging M/R's; fudged log books; late arrival penalties etc etc ad infinitum.

And it's not the Banks that necessarily do the screwing. Whilst I don't doubt the bids are competative, it's the express freight companies, totally devoid of any morals, who are passing out "contracts" to eager aviation operators all keen on eventually going bust!

I think that pretty well summarises that scene! :mad:

[Allnighter]

OK dudes,

I have been reading these forums over the last 12 months taking in all replies to topics posted and quite often wonder what motivate you guys to always have the right answer to anything that is discussed.

In relation to this unfortunate demise of a local operator, you blokes are far from the real reason why it's happenned.

- Dodgy maintenance, pilots fudging the paperwork, high charges, failure of CASA in their obligations, airport fees, unpaid - underpaid pilots ,overloading etc.... - were reasons cited by those who care to comment.

It seems not many people know exactly what the operation totally entails. "Bankrunning" these days really don't carry too much bank stuff at all. Try heaps of overnight satchels, pathology samples, mail, parcels, film processing stuff, etc etc. Citing bank profits?? nothing to do with it. ---- what line of thinking???? I don't follow

Well, you all guessed WRONG! it's NONE of these at all!!!
You should gather ALL of the facts before crucifying the wrong people.



When one of your employees goes in and takes over $180,000 out of the till..... Guess what happens??????

none of the above " educated guesses!!"

[stormywx]

Can anyone confirm this information is infact correct and that it was infact the above mentioned airline?

Thanks

[Timetofly]

Storymywx... Yes its true and yes the aforementioned airline.

Secondly.

Allnighter...
Only believe half of what you see and NONE of what your told.

:)

[Elk McPherson]

Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.

There are plenty of us out here who have been ripped off by the man in question. Never mind the CASA financial checks... how on earth did he ever pass a 1st Class medical???

I have every sympathy for his former employees who, in my discussions with them, faithfully and blindly repeated the lies told by the boss about the viability etc of the company.

Allnighter: Theft by an employee? Who did you hear that from? If it was the fat man then have a good think about everything he has ever told you.

He aparrently owns a "sleeper" company and AOC. Can't wait to see which company rises from the ashes next week :rolleyes:

[The Messiah]

I guess we can expect to hear of the charges being laid against the 'thief'.

That Hunter Valley run in particular has been under cut by shonk after shonk and certainly could not be close to profitable in a pressurised Navajo of all things.

Everyone seems to want to run an aviation business (an oxymoron I know), except those who know anything about it.

I must say it is a poor choice of title for the post however, as I was waiting to read Vale _________, don't do that to me.

[Capt Claret]

Do banks have a duty of care, or any responsibility, not to 'impose' unrealistic schedules, or 'must-get-there-itis'?

Gaunty?

[Torres]

Claret. It is my understanding Banks are not directly involved nor are they parties to contracts with any operators.

The operations started many years ago carrying time sensitive documents on befalf of various banks, hence the title "Bank Runners".

Now the operations are conducted by the express freight companies and loads consist of express freight, consolidated freight, newspapers, medical samples and bank documents.

The banks pay a significant sum to the express freight companies, who then load the aircraft with their own express freight. I would not care to hazard a guess on how profitable it is for the freight companies, but as they have been at it for many years, I suspect quite profitable.

It is those freight companies that are screwing the stupid operators. One of the biggest - and most immoral - also previously owned a significant share in a now defunct major Australian airline.

[otaio]

As an engineer when you have to refuse to sign an aircraft out because you havn't been paid in 3 months, you have to conclude that the aircraft owner doesn't have much money.

Fortunately we got our money a week before the **** hit the fan.

The problem is the industry has too many enthusiasts:

Pilots who will fly for nothing, because they just want to fly.

Owners who are in it for the "glamour" of owning an aircraft. But can't afford the maintenance.

Get these together and you have poor business and badly looked after aircraft

[Torres]

otaio. I think it was Gaunty that once summed them up very well. I think is comment was "Wandering adventurers of no fixed percentage".

Your actions were interesting and as absurd as it may sound, legally questionable. I'm not sure CASA would support you not signing out a serviceable aircraft. As best as I could establish (from similar past experience) you can only resort to a "Workman's Lien" to reasonably restrain the aircraft. But it gets even more interesting if the aircraft is cross hired and not owned by your client..........

[The Messiah]

torres , surely the maintenance bill is the owners responsibility, cross hired or not.

Removing a prop always helped to get the bill paid in extreme cases.

CASA???? So long as you did it before 9am after 5pm, during lunch hour or on a weekend or public servant holiday, they would never know or care. :D

[RAJAM]

Damnit!!
Wonder if he'll at least let me come to his place for dinner every day next week, no make that for the next 12 months, cause the money he owed to me would sure have been handy in the basket.
Thanks for that Mr T.
Lets just hope that whoever fills the run looks after the pilots,I think they have earned that,and the poor guys having to take the agressive phone calls,they probably need some stress leave,wishing them all well.:( :( :(

[Wheeler]

Otaio,

You would not say there might be just a few engineers around who have slightly opportunisitc tendancies then?

[otaio]

Oh there are plenty of opportunistic engineers. After all we are all trying to make a living.

As for the legal aspects of a workmans lien. Well you can always find something wrong that will ground an aircraft.

Why else would operators want MEL's. Even when there is an MEL you still won't have to look to hard.

After all it is my license that says whether the aircraft is flyable or not and of course if I get it wrong then I lose my livelihood, if I get don't get paid its also my livelihood.

In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show.

[Torres]

"In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show."

Here, Here!!!!!!!!! I could not agree more!!!!!!!!!

And if there were more business people and less "wandering adventurers of no fixed percentage" maybe hourly rates would be far more realistic and far less operators going belly up, leaving staff, pilots and engineers, unpaid!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Elk you have hit the nail on the head. This bloke has done nothing for aviation despite his frequent and loud claims. I have never come across some one who with such a lack of regard for the people around him than this big fella. I guess if you treat people like sh#@t you will eventually step in it yourself.

Tell your story walking mate. Good luck to the unfortunates who are now out of work.

[Wheeler]

Otario,

'In other words, if you are in aviation for the love of it leave and let the business people run the show.'

What planet are you on? Have you ever looked at the economics of running an aircraft at this end of the food chain?

If it was not for benovelent aviaition lovers, owners on a tax holiday and the like subsidising this industry, many of you guys would be out of business long ago!

The problem is more to do with industry structure, too much duplication, too many small operators who are all basically offering the same product, and hence a competitive rivalry situation that is highly destructive. Basically no-one can charge enough to even come close to a sensible business margin because someone else, even more desperate to survive, will always charge less.

Until the structural problems are fixed, more and more will bite the dust and don't be too surprised if a few engineers go with them. Let's hope it is the opportunistic ones.

[gaunty]

otaio

I'm with you mate.

If it was not for benovelent aviaition lovers, owners on a tax holiday and the like subsidising this industry, many of you guys would be out of business long ago!

Is exactly the reason why this business is on its arse.

The problem is more to do with industry structure, too much duplication, too many small operators who are all basically offering the same product, and hence a competitive rivalry situation that is highly destructive. Basically no-one can charge enough to even come close to a sensible business margin because someone else, even more desperate to survive, will always charge less.

my case rests.

And Wheeler by his own words wins the case for us.

Own goals are a stunning feature of this business.:eek:

[Wheeler]

Gaunty,


That aint no own goal - if it was not for such a rediculous competitive situation - there would be a lot less of the small underutilised operations that will never be profitable. Until this industry starts getting into the acquisition and merger business, nothing will improve and engineers, airfield owners ASA etc etc will continue to attempt to live off owners' and operators' losses. Without that, quite a few are stuffed.

Him?

[ausuper_fly]

The sad thing about this part of the industry is NOT the operators who are prepared to throw their money into these non-profit ventures, for whatever reason.

Having worked for several charter operators over the past decade, both big and small, who contract (or used to contract) to the freight companies I feel little sympathy for those who provide maintenance, fuel etc to those who go tits up.They knew the risk they were taking in giving these people credit in the first place and are happy to charge accordingly ! I havent seen many of the maintenance facilities or fuel franchises go broke !

The unfortunate thing is that some experienced and competent people work for these ego-maniacs and when the truth about them finally comes to light, whether it be by their demise or otherwise, those loyal long-serving employees not only are left without their financial entitlements but are also thrown into the same basket with their previous employer and viewed upon by other people in the industry in the same dim light.

But I have seen good people being branded as shonks, cowboys, etc when all they have done is worked for someone who was prepared to cross all the boundries, professional and moral, in the name of their EGO.

So all I can say is " Another one bites the dust "

I hope not too many good people suffer because of it.

What goes round comes round.........eh coco-pop

[The Messiah]

ausuper most maintenance facilities and refuellers bill on a 60 days basis thus providing a line of credit by default.

I'm sure none of them ask for your sympathy but to try and blame honest private business people for not getting paid..........don't be so ridiculous!:mad:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I have just spoken to a young mate who was working for this company...nothing to do with no margins...all to do with a beancounter walking with 180K from the 'Till'.

Chuck.

[RAJAM]

I've heard nothing about this $180K?? except from on here.
How could any anyone possibly get away with that sort of money? Who could possibly have the means of this sort of access to the financial side of someone else's business?
If it came from Mr T's mouth well?? This is the same guy when approached 3 months after an account was overdue said "Oh I didn't even realise!, send it through and I will pay it straight away" waiting,waiting,waiting..damn australia post again.

I think the whole demise was more about under charging for services. I mean once was told that he charges a flat rate for a jockey club, per seat..no matter if 1 goes or 5. If 1 to 3 go he runs at a loss..if 4 and above go...he's smiling, and that my friends was straight from the horses mouth!! but then does this count??
You cant run charter this way..you charge "per aircraft" be it a full load or not. One seat wouldn't even pay for the pilot surely.
However seems like they are still operating on a XHire agreement with the receivers for now until a sale for the business is found..hopefully something will come through for the present staff. Wish them well..
;)

[edgewing]

RAJAM,

only $180K? A rank amateur obviously. What about the guy who walked with $21m from K & S transport in Mount Gambier? Now thats a fraud.

:eek:

Off to sunshine for holidays. Bye all :cool:

[Elk McPherson]

Chimbu,

It is my opinion that you are a little removed from the situation old boy. But then again, so am I. :rollseyes:

Sorry to all the pilots working (and working hard) for him, but your naievete was (and continues to be) breathtaking.

[gaunty]

Elk Darling

Sounds like 2 - 3 still equals -1 then. :rolleyes:

If it walks, talks and quacks like a duck then there is a very good chance it is one.

The old "accountant did me in routine" may well have some legs but where is the fraud squad.

More likely the accountant insisted on being paid first.

$350 ph and not charging for the ferries? sounds familiar and that was around 15 years ago:rolleyes:

Did I ever send you that prospectus on the new railroad company me old mate Torres and I are getting up, they were quite succesfull in the 20's dont you know, quite a few old money fortunes made that way, thought we'd dust em off and give em another run.
We bought the carriage rights to that verge bit between the road and the fence for all of the East Coast, from a really nice chap we met in the Cairns Aero Club bar the other night. He said he was on the "inside" and could get approval to run some railway tracks there and he has a nice line in solar powered trains that would be perfect.
Said he did the strategy planning for the Democrats, very clever chap.
We're excited.
Be quick we are closing off the subscriptions at $200,000,000.:)
I'm fighting it but Torres insists that we have to domicile the company in somewhere called the Cook Islands, never been there myself but I'm told it's OK.:D

[gaunty]

Well there you go, I am told that the law is involved.
Anyone??

[Chimbu chuckles]

I heard about the K & S thing while in Mt Gambier a few days ago...the stupid bastard didn't have the where withall to jst steal it and dissappear into a big world with his ill gotten gains...he pinched it a little at a time and used it to feed his gambling habit...until he got caught...I mean thats just plain stupid!:rolleyes:

Chuck.

[Aussie Freight Dog]

Just wondering if there is any news on whats going on with Cirrus? Are they trying to trade there way out of this mess, or is it all going to end soon. I believe they are still operating at this stage, but Maynes took one of their four bank runs of off them when all this became known. Are the pilots getting payed or are guys/girls just flying for the hours?

AFD:rolleyes:

[CIRRUS AIRCRAFT]

Due to a few interesting telephone calls over the past few weeks and a similarity in business names;

I would like to state that Cirrus Aircraft of QLD is in no way linked to, and has never been linked to Cirrus Aviation of NSW.

[RYAN TCAD]

Well, it would seem that the lardarse had forgotten that the world was round until now. What goes around - comes around!:D

[jetage]

about the poor girls and guys stuck in the trenches...

what(s) happen(ed)/(ing) to fat ricky?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

I have heard he is still trowing his weight aroud at the club.

[JULIET WHISKEY]

Dear Thomas,

Nothin quite like the Souvlaki Mafia comin afta ya!!!!

Glad it aint me.......

[Torres]

Gaunty. I've sold the shares in the railway but the investor wants us to throw in the Sydney Harbour Bridge. And chance you can come up with a title?

I had a couple of gentlemen in grey suits came to visit - said they were from the ATO, or AFP, or ASIC, or ACCC - not sure which. I told them you were company principal so expect them in a day or two. See if they are interested in investing in our next venture.

I'm off to the Cook Islands. See ya there...... :D

[Spinnerhead]

Man are there a lot of BITCHES on this thread or what!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Spinnerhead. You obviously have not been burnt by the big man of Australian Aviation.