SIDs & MSAs ... Geneva in particular (split from Descent thread)

[Guy D'ageradar]

Any BA short haul pilots reading this?

Regular problem on arrival at LSGG:- Standard inbound clearance on transfer to APP - Lirko-GVA is usually ammended (by those of us who care) with either direct SPR or a heading to acheive same - inevitably followed by a hot and high arrival 5nm before SPR, requiring either a left for downwind or interception from the other side. Question. Do you adjust the rate of descent after the "direct" or leave it to fly the expected profile? The reason I ask is that, unless blocked by outbounds, no-one else seems to suffer regularly from the same problem. Doesn't seem to matter if it's an Embraer, RJ, 737 or 757 - all do the same thing, leading me to believe it's company procedure. I have no problem offering the direct or leaving you to run to GVA for a downwind if you prefer but if the direct doesn't give the required track-miles then please don't accept it! :confused:

I hope that someone out there can either explain the above or correct my faulty logic!

Regards, Guy.

[BOAC]

Guy - its ages since I (737) went to LSGG, I think it is mostly RJ for BA (out of LGW anyway). The problem USED to be the ?FL200 or above at SAUNI? and then a direct SPR which put us high on the profile. The FMC on the 737, however, would always work out the new descent profile, indicate you are 'high' and increase the speed, and there is always the 3 times table and speedbrake, so I do not know what the problem can be. It always was a bit of a scramble to get the height off, added to which we have a descent rate restriction of not more than 3000fpm within 3000' of local MSA (over the Jura), but it was 'crackable'!

[Guy D'ageradar]

BOAC

Thanks for the reply - the sauni restriction is caused by the French FIR boundary and associated standing agreements (I think - not my domain, for the next few months, at least). It just seems strange that no-one else has the same problem on a regular basis, in fact, quite the opposite (Scandis at nemos, FL200, 300 indicated for straight in 23 springs to mind and we won't even mention Crossa... sorry, Swiss).:rolleyes:

I've also on several occasions had BA RJs refuse to turn over the Jura until out of FL80 - fair enough but we do like to know in advance if you're going to re-arrange the SIDs!:D

à tout!

[BOAC]

"you really should try to get back to this part of the world now and agin" - working at it! - I'll drop you a PM if I succeed!

I'll ask the RJ crews if they can answer the Q.

[Hotel Mode]

I'm on the RJ, cant really think why people end up hot and high. I always expect direct SPR on 23. Thing with the rj is it will descend like a brick with the airbrake out, we also have a speed restriction on 250 below 8000 feet, which means at most places we are not going that fast if we get quick approaches, at geneva though i think its easy to forget you will be extablishing at 7000 and a lots going to happen at once.

As for the departures, if the SID says 7000 then 7000 it is, it must be because MSA to the north is 7700 and our climb can be less than sparkling. Dont really understand because everyone turns on the SID before MSA at Gatwick, thats what they are for! Maybe a lot of us RJ blokes are a bit paranoid of terrain after Sion, and Innsbruck!

[BOAC]

Apologies for the thread creep here - maybe the mods would like to split this thread??

Ref SIDs and MSAs - surely the point is that AREA MSAs are not relevant on a SID, adherence to the track of which will achieve terrain clearance? Therefore it is perfectly safe to turn towards the high MSA area below relevant MSA providing you are on the SID, and even have an engine or two out and be safe, assuming there is no terrain/emergency turn. If you look out of the right hand window on that SID on a nice day, you could even turn at 4500' (?? from a fading memory!!) and avoid terrain ON THE TRACK. Not encouraging you to do this, mind you!! :eek:

[False Capture]

I agree with BOAC, if you stick to the bold line on the chart then your terrein clearance is assured.

When the RJ was operating under CityFlyer SOPs our noise-abatement technique was different to the BA technique which we use now. Under CityFlyer SOPs we adhered to both the vertical and horizontal noise-abatement profile for departure. A CityFlyer flown RJ would reduce power at 2900'QNH and accelerate at 4400'QNH - following the Swiss Authority's published procedure. An RJ flown to BA SOPs reduces power and accelerates at 2700'QNH(RWY23). As a result we are now taking longer to reach the magical 7000'QNH before being able to turn north. On a hot day with a full pax load and engine air on(due to APU u/s) this is sometimes achieved after GVA 8d/PAS - the point at which you turn right to pick-up the radial to DIPIR.

Whilst the RJ and B737 carry-out the same technique of power reduction and acceleration at 2700'QNH - I guess it's the RJ's lack of power which results in the aircraft being too low to turn at GVA 8d/PAS. BOAC, this would take you off the bold line. Is this when some of our crews are continuing to FL80 as Guy says before turning?:confused:

[BOAC]

Not keen on getting off that bold line in IMC!

I seem to recall 1-11 pilots' stories (no, not Trident) of having to enter the PAS hold to achieve the key height before setting course. (Not just GVA, either!) Aagh! Those war stories.

[Guy D'ageradar]

(copied from original thread)

BOAC,

Ref the Scandis - simply a comment that they always arrive very hot and very high - I actually meant to say Vadar - which is around 35nm final for 23 (only used for arrivals from Zurich direction) but always seem to get it down. Of course, we won't bring "stabilised approach" into it!!!

Ref: the SIDS, you're absolutely correct, "Right turn after passing PAS but not before 7000ft QNH to intercept....." pretty much the same off 05 - the thing is that again, the only company that regularly refuses to turn before 80 is BA (RJ's only, in my experience). It's not really a complaint, more a comment on an apparrent difference in SOPs.

Thanks again for the replies - you really should try to get back to this part of the world now and agin - the Guinness is not bad at all !!



[B] False Capture [B]

Thanks for the info. I suspect that you are correct regarding the reason for the "requirement" to pass Fl80 before turning as being off the designated track - from memory, most of the incidents that I can recall involved such slow climbers. However, I have also had the same thing in reverse - crews refusing to descend below FL80 until south of the Jura (usually when we're on 23). Again, not a problem if we know in advance but it can certainly throw a spanner into the sequence if we're busy. Can't remember if it has happened with other types but definitely with the RJ. Always flummoxed me because our minimum vectoring alt. is 7000ft.

Sorry about the delay to this post - been trying to post since last night but the damn thing keeps logging me off! Word of warning - if you use Zone Alarm Pro - shut it down before trying to post.

[False Capture]

Guy,

I feel there is some uncertainty on the RJ fleet about LSGG SIDs. As a Geneva controller please can you answer the following question.

Crew read-back a DIPIR 1A departure clearance and believe that they can comply with the Procedure Design Gradient - so a climb to KEMIT to climb in the PAS hold is not expected. The crew depart RWY23 and do not climb as quickly as expected. The crew would have turned at GVA 8d if they were at 7000'. However, on reaching GVA 10d the aircraft is still below 7000'QNH.

What does Geneva Control expect the crew to do?

[Guy D'ageradar]

False Capture

According to our rules, if you can't make the climb gradient, you should ask for the hold at Kemit. That part is simple enough. However, the hold itself is rarely asked for - most crews request "climb on present heading" or similar, which opens a whole new can of worms. The reason for this is that, as soon as you receive a heading, we are responsabe for terrain clearance and a mile or so after PAS, our minimum vectoring altitude goes from 4000ft to 6000 - very shortly thereafter to 7000. Problem. If we give you a heading (straight ahead or similar) , we will almost certainly lose terrain clearance very quickly indeed, thus necessitating the oft-heard phrase "do you have ground contact? - Maintain until passing 7000ft".

This leads me to the often confused "requirement" to reach 7000ft before PAS - not at all - as long as you can maintain the required climb gradient, there is no requirement to be at 7000ft at or before PAS, after all, ILS 05 inbounds would only be at 3200-3500 ft in the same area. You will find however, that to avoid much buttock clenching, most os us will again ask for flight conditions - even though local training encourages us not to. This is where the whole area becomes grey - you are now not on the bold line but are also below the MSA/MVA so what terrain clearance do you have? answer - if on or above the gradient, fine, if below, you should ask for the hold or VMC climb.

Hope this helps,

Regards,

Guy.:)

edited for shocking spelling:p

[NIPS]

Probably still too busy working out who is meant to be flying it at that moment.
"Am I non flying landing but handling at the moment or flying not landing but not handling pilot ?"

[Hobo]

Like BOAC it's a while since I took a 737 into LSGG. The Sauni 200 or above inbound was no problem if you ignored the FMC, applied common sense and allowed the speed to decay to 210kts at Sauni FL200. Then when at Sauni, start the descent wind the speed up to 320/330. Approaching FL100 select V/S 500-1000 fpm and there you were .. 8 miles from SPR, low speed, ready for the early turn in and further descent. Speedbrakes not needed unless howling tailwind or icing.

Similarly into Zurich, from memory hand over from France was at 60DME from Kloten at FL220(??). Again bring the speed back to 210 at this point and wind up towards the barbers pole on descent (If stopped at say FL180 on the way down allow the speed to decay and then wind it up again). This descent profile always meant no speedbrake was ever needed here.

The thing is not to allow the FMC to overrule airmanship and common sense. All other things being equal if you need speedbrakes in the descent you've had the throttles open too much and are wasting fuel.

[Cough]

Been into GVA a few times recently. I have never found the profiles ridiculous. Even a direct SPR and hang a right arrival is not any great problem...Even managed a visual over the hills to about a 7 mile final once . Just takes a little bit of energy management and you are sorted. Re: ZRH stuff: I haven't encountered any great easterly wind so I couldn't really comment on being too hot on that arrival.

Out of curiosity, regarding the 7000'A min radar alt over the Jura. Is this ever factored with regard to a very low ISA temp? (Or is that factor already built into the 7000' at the design stage)

Cough

ps. Switzerland = Affluent in my book. Please could you buy a set of PAPI's!

[Guy D'ageradar]

cough

Ref: MSA over the Jura - Yes - below -10 it's automatically FL80, regardless of atmospheric pressure, otherwise, calculated every met report.