How to approach the "fit to fly" question?

[N Reg Aztec]

Apologies in advance if this is posted in the wrong forum but I would appreciate hearing a few different opinions on the subject.


The situation was as follows:

Two instructors flying a cross water sector in two light aircraft with two students. Flight out goes really well, have some lunch and get ready to head back on the two leg flight home. Instructor A and student A head off into the sunset and reach the point of immigration clearance without any problems or hitches. When they land they have a message saying instructor B was delayed 2 hours due to a mechanical problem and would be late arriving at the customs airport.

After deciding to wait for them they eventually arrive about 2.5 hours late - both instructor and student looking annoyed with each other. A little gentle probing reveals that they got "lost" and the student got stressed etc. Instructor B also looked exhausted and said it was a difficult flight in and out of IMC.

Instuctor A calls him aside and says (as politely as he can manage) that he looks too tired for the final leg home (approx 2 hours and time now is 2200) and that the aircraft should stay here and continue home in the morning. Instructor A does not appreciate the "interference" and starts ranting and raving about being an ATPL with XXX hours etc. Instructor B says that most accident reports start off with a trail of little things like this going wrong and that he feels a stop should be put to it before anything goes wrong. (The landing light on plane B is out of service, the weather is now solid IMC, instructor B and student B are barely talking and they both look exhausted)


My question: Was Instructor A right to "interfere" or was he out of line? :confused:

[Captain Stable]

Spot on.

Just a few little things there - the annoyance between instructor and stude, mechanical problem giving delay, landing light u/s, weather closing in, tiredness, stress...

An unmistakeable accident chain beginning to form. Friends don't let frinds drive drunk. And friends don't let friends kill themselves in light aircraft. More GA accidents are caused by get-home-itis than almost anything else.

Absolutely right to "interfere". It's often difficult to spot such a chain forming when you're in the middle of it. The other instructor, not being so directly involved, could take a more objective view.

[S76Heavy]

Absolutely right to intervene here. After such a bad flight it would have been extremely unwise to press on.

My personal approach to the " fit to fly question" is this: Do I feel alert enough to handle the worst case scenario that can happen on my next flight? If the answer is not an unambiguous YES, then should I really be flying?

[greybeard]

WELL DONE THAT MAN!!

Probably saved the lives of the two involved.

The hardest thing in aviation is to say

!!!!!!!NO!!!!!!!

After that the day is usually stress free.

It is MUCH BETTER to be at the enquiry than to be the enquiry.

C YA

:p

[Tonic Please]

Greybeard...I think that being at the enquiry is better than being the enquiry.

I had one or two (two to be precise) "discrepencies" with my flying instructor. The first was that after we landed, I had to complete the small checklist after landing, but as it was a flapless approach, I could not do the step "flaps retarcted"...so I did the first second and third, flaps up was fourth..but cannot remember exactly, and then the fifth. He, to my suprise, began to complain and holler (however you spell that word) that I was not listening to him because I had not followed to checklist properly like he told me to. I insistsed I had, but as the flaps were up for landing, I did not need to retract flaps after landing. He did not understand this and later back at the club we spoke about it, and I said I checked the flaps were up, and that I had "read" the flaps up check, just not needed to do it for the previously mentioned reason.. :rolleyes:

He did not seem to accept that I did listen to him, so I ended up just agreeing with him and not arguing. This previous "argument" almost disrupted, fatally, our next flight later that day at CYYJ (Victoria, BC Canada). I requested we just land and not argue things in the air, which i'm very glad about now...

What would you have done. It'd be interesting to see who's "side" you are on...

Smooth skies :D

[BlueEagle]

Tonic Please - Getting a bit 'off-topic' here but in the case of the checklist I think your Instructor was correct.

After landing checklists are usually 'read and do' so all you had to do when you got to the flaps item was say, "Flaps Up". This tells your instructor that you have followed the checklist and checked that the flaps were, indeed, up, (some kind of failure could have lowered, or partially lowered, them after you landed). If you start abbreviating the checklist, which is a very bad habit to get into, then as sure as eggs are eggs, one day you will miss something and it may be vital. Your instructor was trying to get you into good habits, that's all.

You are right not to hold heated discussions in the air with your instructor, a passenger or another crew member as this can destroy your concentration.

[Captain Stable]

Here BE and I diverge slightly (but only slightly).

I would maintain that all checklists are read-and-check. The actions should already have been carried out, and you're just checking to make sure it's all been done. However, I agree wholeheartedly that to abbreviate a checklist is a very bad habit to get into. Read (aloud) all checks and confirm everything is done. On the after-landing checks, even if you have just carried out a flapless, read aloud "Flaps - up" and check they are up.

In a multi-crew aircraft, usual procedure is for the checks to be carried out as a challenge and response. In other words, the PNF reads the checklist, the PF checks each item and calls out the response. If not as expected on the checklist, you stop and confirm. This is, of course, not possible when you're on your own. There is a tendency to "see" what you expect to see (what is on the checklist), so it takes a certain amount of self-discipline to carry out checks properly, not just sing the standard responses to yourself.

On a final point, I hope that you are not carrying out after-landing checks whilst still on the runway. You should not touch anything until clear of the runway (and preferably stationary - certainly stationary when on your own). There's many a pilot has retracted the gear after landing instead of the flaps. Whilst most aircraft now have WOW (Weight-On-Wheels) logic that would prevent this happening, it, like anything man-made, can go wrong and leave you with an aircraft a few feet lower than it should be, an unhappy airport manager and a large bill!

Don't get too upset with your instructor. You may be quite sure you read the flaps check aloud - but it's also quite possible you didn't. Without a CVR, it's impossible to know. Just accept he didn't hear it. Having said that, it is not acceptable for him to shout at you. Stressing a stude unnecessarily doesn't help them learn. Next time you fly with him, you might think about asking him not to. Do this on the ground, though! If it reoccurs, ask for another instructor.

[Tonic Please]

Captain Stable, and others...thank you for your responses.

CS, the aircraft was off the runway when the checks were being carried out. Also, not that it matters, I was his first ever student, so I was thinking maybe he just had not enough experience to deal with the situation..but thats not for me to say really. (even tho i just did).

I have now matured since then. I was 16 during my PPL training, (yes-17 on issue), and next year I am back at the same place for CPL, multi and all that. I shall have matured being nearly 19 then, so all should go well.

Read-and check...I shall remember always.

Smooth skies
:)

[MAXX]

SIMPLE REPLY TO THIS ONE

IF THE SITUATION WAS AS YOU SAY,THEN INSTRUCTOR A WAS EXACTLY RIGHT TO SAY SOMETHING.

SOMETIMES WE DONT ALWAYS SEE THINGS FROM THE RIGHT PERSPECTIVE WHEN WE ARE THE CREW THAT IS STRESSED AND TIRED.

DAMM GOOD CALL INSTRUCTOR A.
IF INSTRUCTOR B WAS BIG ENOUGH TO TAKE THE ADVICE THEN A COUPLE OF LIVES HAVE BEEN SAVED HERE.

MAXX

[RadarContact]

Oi Maxx, easy on the Caps...

That last posting made my eyes ring... errr my ears water... umm whatever ;)