A320 Ground Spoilers after landing.

[A320251N]

Hi everyone...

Today something unusual happened: we were in a A321NEO and after disarming the spoilers, during the after landing flow, I noticed that the Ground Spoilers indication on the F/CTL page remained up... I can't remember seeing such situation before. I looked on the FCOM and couldn't find anything refering to this. We deployed the Spoilers, retracted them, and then the ground spoilers indication showed the ground spoilers as retracted.

Does anyone know what could have happened? No ECAM or other unusual cockpit indication were noticed...

[gearlever]

One or both thrust reversers not closed?

[A320251N]

Both stowed ! I had already vacated the runway when I spotted the ground spoilers up and I made sure that the THR Lever was not on REV range, I can even recall seeing the TLA moving on the EWD.... If I'm not wrong, If the culprit was the reversers, none of the spoilers would retract.

[FlightDetent]

A mere technical possibility:

Side stick lateral displacement brings up F/CTL and if your knee caused that beyond just a little bit, the spoilers come up onside with the ailerons. Asymmetrical, of course.

Don't remember seeing a symmetrical one, nor any logic for that.

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[Uplinker]

Were the spoilers actually up on both wings, or was it just the SD page indication?

[Checkboard]

It's just an electrical switch. Didn't make contact properly on the first go, did on the second.

[vilas]

Possibly, while disarming the lever may have shifted slightly towards extend cancelling the retract command.

[FlightDetent]

For those unaware, this observed HF behaviour led to a change of OEM SOP. Already many years now, disarming the spoilers and closing T.O./turnoff lights is done in clean conf.

Used to be right after selection of L/G UP in the same action flow. But extending spoilers at 20ft was just not very nice.

[Check Airman]

vilas

Tangentially related, but I’ve never understood why some folks make a fist and hammer the speed brake lever to disarm it. Seems like they’re just damaging whatever switch is down there.

[vilas]

Human factor! May be some like to give a personal touch.

[A320251N]

Hi there everyone... Tks for the replies !

I'm genttle with the speedbrake lever, there's even a video on Airbus Win discussing this topic (hammering it).I had the chance to fly the 321neo during the last days and took closer look awaiting the described situation to happen again. It didn't ! I even tested disarming the lever while at Idle Rev and, as I commented before, none of the spoilers retracted.
Anyway, I don't know what could happened, probably some glitch god knows where down the path between the lever and the actual surface...

[CaptainMongo]

Check Airman

Yeah, what is with that? We aren’t at the same airline so, like Vilas said, that is some human factors thingy going on.

Using that “technique” after takeoff, I have seen a pilot partially deploy the SB’s.

[Check Airman]

A320251N

Hi, is there a link available to the video you’re referencing?

[Check Airman]

CaptainMongo

I’ve seen this happen too. It’s got to be one of the strangest things people do. Not sure why the think it’s necessary or ok.

[A320251N]

Check Airman

Hi there !

Yes there is...

airbus-win.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/m122950_airbus_video-training_use-speedbrake-spoilers_04-06-19-sstt_100mo-2.mp4 (sorry for not posting the clickable url... the forum is not allowing me due to my reduced number of posts. Just add the www before it).

There's a pretty good amount of content in airbus win ! I highly recommend it.

Have a good one !

[vilas]

Airbuswin. What about the use of speed brake. This video explains the various possibilities.

[pineteam]

They changed the procedure because of careless pilots who smashed the speed-brake lever down to disarm the spoilers. We had one aircraft where the speed brake handle was actually cracked. Such a shame the way some pilots treat the aircraft equipments. Same goes for the sliding table and the cockpit door. :ugh:

Edit: Found the photo.


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1068x1098/6ec0ff3d_fcbc_4a8e_bfb8_a0c321c015fb_bf7dfbcc53397dcdd56273f 5c01c3ccdb93c4200.jpeg

[Airbus_a321]

OMG. Airbus is inthe air for so many years and it is still horrible and shocking to see, that many of the guys in the flightdeck still do not know or do not realize, that almost all of the handles are SWITCHES, but no (mechanically) LEVERS.
This is why they smash e.g. the spoilers, the landing gear etc pp. :ugh:
The outcome: see picture above from @pineteam

[A320251N]

Geez... There's definitely some hidden anger in a guy/girl who smashes a lever like that. What about retarding the thrust levers like an animal, or pressing the brakes like there's no tommorrow for the brakes check?

So many possibilities :ugh:

Such a Shame...

[Uplinker]

Crazy. Completely agree about not smashing the thrust levers too. No need at all.

I will say that very gently disarming the speed-brake lever is silent and can be too subtle for PM to start the after-landing scan. Yes, if they look they can see that the spoilers have been disarmed, but they will be looking out to ensure safe taxi, and/or looking down to change frequencies, so might not notice straight away. The click from tapping the lever down is easily heard and gives PM an audio cue that they can do the scan as soon as able.

Note I am NOT advocating smashing the lever at all, just tapping it to generate a 'click' sound. What happened to the lever in that photo above is totally unacceptable.

After take-off is a different matter, triggered by a different cue. In that case, the lever can and should be gently pushed, to avoid inadvertent deployment, as stated by others.

[pineteam]

Uplinker. The PM just needs to look at the Ecam lower display. No need really to rely on the sound of it. But I get your point, it’s a nice trigger.

[vilas]

Only one thing i.e. thrust levers should not be nursed to TOGA but should be very firmly pushed to the stop for go around. Because thrust levers are also phase selectors and many incidents of stopping short and continuing descent in approach mode have happened.

[Check Airman]

A320251N

thanks for the link

[Check Airman]

Uplinker

On this side of the pond, the PF calls “after landing” or “flaps up”, and all items are accomplished by the PM. No “cue” needed.

[Uplinker]

Fair enough.

@pineteam, yes, although as I say PM can be very busy looking in other places just after exiting the runway. Without the actual call that Check Airman uses, it is helpful for the audible click to join the "things to do" list in PM's brain, without them having to constantly look down to see when PF has disarmed the spoilers - PM can look outside and do other things until they hear the click. Our SOP's used to have PM switch over the landing and taxi lights, so it was important for them to do so straight after PF had "called" for the scan by clicking the spoiler disarm.

We used to 'click' the spoiler arm up as well, on approach :) I imagine Airbus designed it to make a noise, since it is not necessary electrically for a switch to do so.

But no control ever needs to be smashed.

[Friendly Pelican]

Yes: that's my objection to Airbus SOPs.
There shouldn't be an implied cue; but, rather a verbal direction.
Sort of like everywhere else in the flight.

[EcamSurprise]

I’ve noticed spoilers deployed in a climb before due to my colleagues accidentally deploying them some what instead of disarming.

I’ve also had them left deployed after landing and after the speed brake lever was disarmed. Colleague forgot to cancel reverse.

[vilas]

I think the write up in FCOM is not correctly sentenced and is misleading.
RETRACTION The ground spoilers retract:

After landing,

After a rejected takeoff, when the ground spoilers are disarmed.

During a touch and go, when at least one thrust lever is advanced above 20 °.

Actually the first two conditions. After landing and after a rejected Takeoff, both require ground spoilers disarmed?

[Uplinker]

Yes, they have omitted "when the ground spoilers are disarmed" from the first line.