British Pilots : The fight back begins.

[Paul Rice]

British pilots are being excluded from jobs in the United Kingdom by foreign airlines setting up bases in the United Kingdom and then subsequently only recruiting European Union Licensed crew. For example on the Indeed job board on the 31 July 2021 Lauda Europe part of Ryanair are advertising for Airbus Captains and First Officers for a Stansted base but to apply you must have an EASA Licence and an EU Medical Certificate. What is going on when in Essex in England in the United Kingdom a British ATPL issued by the the UK CAA is not even able to apply for work in our own country and were to get a chance of a flying job in Britain you need to have a foreign non British Licence. How has the CAA allowed this to come to pass ?

How would it roll if a British Airline established its main operating base in Dublin and tried to insist that only UK CAA Licenced pilots could apply for work in Ireland. Any attempt to do this would be physically stopped immediately and it is beyond belief that the British Government and the CAA have allowed foreign airlines and foreign crews to set up significant bases in the United Kingdom and allowed recruitment practices to develop that prevent British citizens for applying for work in their own country. This is nothing short of discrimination based on national origin.

Its time now for foreign airlines with their significant bases of operation in the United Kingdom to be required to have British AOC 's and for their United Kingdom based crews to have United Kingdom CAA Licences. An ICAO Licenced pilot arriving in the UAE is only required to sit a single air Law exam on arrival in the UAE in order to be issued with a GCAA ATPL valid for employment with Emirates or flydubai. A very simple process which contrasts to the nationally and racially discriminatory way EASA requires 14 written exams and a flight test to be passed in order to issue an EASA Licence based on an ICAO Licence.

British pilots we are simply being turned over here prevented from finding work in our own country by foreign companies employing only foreign licensed pilots while the EASA licensing authority deliberately makes it next to impossible for British pilots to get EASA Licences.

This situation has to be bought to a stop. I would like every British Licensed pilot to file a complaint with the Equalities Commission citing that we are being discriminated against on the basis of our national origin and to write to their MP. If the situation is not resolved then further steps will need to be considered.which should include a national campaign to get the British public to boycott foreign airlines with bases in the United Kingdom and who do not recruit pilots with British Licences.

[FlyingStone]

How would it roll if a British Airline established its main operating base in Dublin and tried to insist that only UK CAA Licenced pilots could apply for work in Ireland. Any attempt to do this would be physically stopped immediately...

You mean stopped by the common sense that no UK AOC would open a base in the EU, as they could only operate flights to UK?

Its time now for foreign airlines with their significant bases of operation in the United Kingdom to be required to have British AOC 's and for their United Kingdom based crews to have United Kingdom CAA Licences.

That would require the rewriting of the EU-UK TCA. I doubt that will happen.

There's only one cause of all of this mess. And plenty of British pilots voted both for the cause and the party who implemented it. Time for some home truths.

[CW247]

I have written to my MP (Labour) and left him a voicemail on his Parliament voicemail, here is what I wrote:

Dear MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LOCATION

I left a voicemail for you. I am a constituent of yours based in LOCATION. By profession, I am an Airline Pilot. I like so many others have become unemployable due to Brexit because of the UK government’s complete mishandling of aviation related affairs.

Since Brexit, the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) has effectively null and voided our flying licenses meaning we can no longer operate aircraft on behalf of European carriers. Yes, UK nationals no longer have automatic employment rights to Europe but this is not the subject matter here. Allow me to explain…Our European licenses became "UK only" licenses overnight and we are now barred from flying aircraft we were happily doing so just 8 months ago even for European airlines with a presence (a base of operation) In the UK! Such operators are allowed to operate and expand their business in the UK. Though they can only employ those with UK working rights, they are still required to (by EASA) to only hire pilots with valid European licenses. The resulting situation is as follows:

If you are a European national with pre-settled status, you are employable by such companies in the UK
If you are a British or Irish national with a European license (for some reason you took the gamble to convert), you are also employable
If you are a British national with a UK license, you are not employable by such airlines.

Only an airline with a UK AOC (Air Operators Charter) can hire you (the same airlines that are downsizing or bleeding right now)


The week and ineffectual UK CAA has granted European license holders special approvals so that they can continue to fly UK registered aircraft. However, the opposite situation where UK pilot license holders are able to operate European aircraft is completely missing.

Robert Courts MP, Aviation and Martime Minister does not seem to acknowledge the gravity of the situation he's government has created and neither does our Transport Secretary, Grant Shapps. My ask from you today is to take this question to parliament and ask them why they have presided over such a terrible and one-way deal that locks British pilots out of jobs in their home country. Surely, it is within their power to threaten EASA to demand they reinstate equal rights or their (European license holder) pilots lose access to our job market?

Here is more from the pilot community:

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/641688-ryanair-experienced-pilot-recruitment-uk-licenses.html

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/641682-titan.html

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/641739-u-k-parliamentary-petition.html

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/640345-easa-uk-pilot-licence-conversion.html

https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/640812-uk-atpl-easa-moving.html

Regards…

[Sick]

The OP is tilting at the wrong windmill, to mix metaphors.

It has long been legal to base a foreign flagged plane in another country (including eg FAA, etc), and no amount of lobbying is going to change that.

Instead, pressure should be applied so that UK based employees and recruits are fully compliant with the right to work and live in the UK, and that recruiters don't use invalid excuses to recruit from abroad while there are unemployed British pilots. Also there are quite a number of UK based pilot employees who aren't even resident in the UK or hold citizenship - Afaiaa, there's no right for them to retain UK employment. There is a kind of Frontalier provision, but it's very limited. UK based eu operators can employ UK licenced pilots using validations (as indeed does Ryanair) The above line of lobbying is likely to have the unintended consequence of cancelling the validation scheme on both sides, with huge net loss of opportunities.

But that tired refrain, Brits voted for it, suck it up. Actually just 25% of the population did, (predominantly retired who are insulated from the repercussions and economic damage of Brexit and covid, to the cost of the working age population and pre voting age people who are bearing the costs of brexit, covid and of funding ballooning triple locked pensions, NHS and elderly social care)

[CW247]

Can we stop talking about the past? None of us could've possibly known what the shower of :mad: that is the Brexit deal would've looked like. We're in this mess, so how about we keep it constructive and try to find a solution?

[FlyingStone]

I believe plenty people knew, but they were dismissed with "project fear" remarks.

We're in this mess, so how about we keep it constructive and try to find a solution?

Campaign for rejoining the single market, which would not only give British pilots back their EASA licence, but also the right to live and work in the EU. Win-win?

[Paul Rice]

British citizens with British professional qualifications are being barred from applying for jobs in Great Britain by foreign companies in favour of workers with foreign qualifications. This has to stop or the simple home truth is that fuelled by long term structural unemployment this will lead to the most intense bitter and ultimately violent conflict.

This racial and national discrimination against British workers by foreign companies in the United Kingdom has to stop or the consequences will be horrific. I am looking for a historical parallel perhaps the way Uganda turned against and expelled it's Indian population for becoming overly commercially exclusive might illustrate.

Be aware British people will not stand for being banned from applying for jobs in Britain on the basis that they hold British qualifications. You are sowing the wind with this and you shall reap the whirlwind. This has to stop now !

[wiggy]

CW247

Yes we could, but as FlyingStone rightly says any such opinion was dismissed as ‘project fear”, sadly often by colleagues.

[thunderbird7]

Completely agree!

[Giuff]

Nice thread title btw.
Good luck 👍🏻

[rmcdonal]

Paul Rice

An ICAO licensed pilot arriving in the UK (even one with a GCAA ATPL) is required to sit all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test in order to convert their license to a CAA one. So if the UK wants to make it hard for ICAO pilots to convert to a UK ATPL then you don't really have an argument when it is thrown back at you.

[Paul Rice]

This has nothing at all to do with the United Kingdoms relationship with Europe.

This is straightforward discrimination by foreign companies against British workers seeking work in Britain with British qualifications.

Nothing at all to do with Europe just straightforward ugly racial national discrimination.

That it is sanctioned by a European Agency EASA aided and supported by the weak CAA makes the betrayal of the British worker more likely to provoke a vigorous back lash.

Any airline that employees pilots in the United Kingdom and who refuses to employ British licensed pilots should face an immediate boycott.

[rotorwills]

How can one think that politicians can solve this issue, give me break. This bunch of moronic twits who are only interested in self ingratiating actions and loads of utter nonsense speak be bothered to even address this problem. They don't give a rats bottom for us the plebs. I have been very close to the political scene in the UK can honestly state they are reflected the closest by television series, "In the Thick of it".

No hope with these buffoons running the country, for their own benefit.

[Paul Rice]

"An ICAO licensed pilot arriving in the UK (even one with a GCAA ATPL) is required to sit all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test in order to convert their license to a CAA one. So if the UK wants to make it hard for ICAO pilots to convert to a UK ATPL then you don't really have an argument when it is thrown back at you"

You are absolutely right the CAA are supporting and assisting EASA with their discrimination against both British and all other ICAO pilots. The CAA are aiding and supporting the enemy.

All that is required to issue an ATPL from one state to another under ICAO is a local air Law differences exam. EASA is a nationally and racially discriminatory body operating in a protectionist way to protect the European super state and this complete dribble that all 14 ATPL exams and a flight test is required is nothing more than Nationalistic discrimination. Both the CAA and EASA should be expelled from ICAO for this nonsense.

It is a matter of personal shame that Britain with its long history of standing up to Fascism has a CAA which supports EASA National Discrimination and now is looking the other way when even its own citizens are being discriminated against by the EASA European super bully.

The CAA must understand we are an independent nation, we will not be discriminated against on racial or national grounds and will not tolerate British workers being discriminated against for holding British qualifications when seeking work in Britain. Equally as an open tolerant and fair minded country we welcome all ICAO licence holders to easily convert to UK CAA Licences.

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

If you think the British Government give even half of one single :mad: about UK aviation then you are deeply mistaken. I predict the G reg will very soon be a thing of the past.

[Ninthace]

CW247 Quick correction for your letter "weak" not "week"

[Wirbelsturm]

Grant Shapps is a lying scumbag, narcissist who has been promoted well past his ability for the simple expedient of supporting Johnson in Brexit. He is totally incapable of an original thought and has zero time for aviation as it would clash with the Governments sham acclamation of 'green credentials'. This was demonstrated perfectly when he attended a hole in the ground whilst the UK aviation industry was lobbying parliament. He demanded 'respect' during one clash with a constituent, I respect those who serve this country, i.e. the armed forces, police, NHS etc. I do not respect snout in the trough self centred politicians who are way, way out of their depth and only in the position for their own self gain.

There was time and opportunity to sort this out but that would have meant work and a reorganisation of the CAA who were, as any of us who have dealt with them, utterly useless under national procedures, JAR and EASA.

The UK aviation industry is sadly screwed and neither of the political parties who have a rats chance of power give a damn.

[Consol]

Well how about if the UK joined a block of countries with a reasonably similar if not identical views on democracy, the rule of law, workers protections, the rights of individuals and freedom of movement for trade and people? Obviously that would exclude countries like China, Russia, Brazil, a large chunk of Africa and Asia and sometimes the USA if it elects a narcissist as Prez. If the UK could somehow figure out what remaining countries are most like it (and preferably geographically nearby) then it could probably solve the OP's problem.

Alternatively the UK can just trade and fly to it's empire.

[highflyer40]

Paul Rice

😂 Get a grip on reality!

[Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP]

Consol

Nice idea! The problem is you can't trust Johnny Foreigner. They have no culture and their food/wine/beer is crap. They'll just come over here to nick all our jobs. They'll probably nick all our benefits and our women too. I say British blokes for British jobs. Boris is right.

Gets coat....

[Una Due Tfc]

You get what you vote for. You were warned this would happen if the UK left EASA, but these warnings were dismissed as scaremongering. Easiest thing to do is get an EASA licence (I would suggest Ireland because of the added protections of the CTA rules etc).

[DaveReidUK]

CW247

Four years ago: Civil Aviation Regulation: What Future After Brexit? (https://www.aerosociety.com/media/6797/raes_civil_aviation_regulation_-_what_future_after_brexit.pdf)

[StuBob]

FlyingStone

Have a Like! 👍

The Brexit elephant unwittingly being embellished here with that same exceptionalism in this thread. Complains about discrimination before going on to openly demand it to suit their own circumstances, welcome to the world of cause and effect.

[DS1]

Plenty who didn’t vote for Brexit. The fact is it’s not an equal distribution and plainly wrong. Some can sit back and moan but I hope others can take some action at least.

[Kelly Hopper]

UK has a pilot union... BALPA.

Many pilots pay 1% of their salary to finance this union to support their cause?

The situation being described above is the singularly biggest threat I have ever witnessed in 40 years to the existance of British licenced pilots! What a change to when I started when a British licence was considered the most valuable licence anywhere? Now? A :mad: useless, murderously expensive piece of A4?

What an abortion of a government!

But where is BALPA? Completely silent.

Stop financing these leaches that take more than you do for doing NOTHING!

You have no representation. So what are you paying for?

[Blake Seven]

Paul Rice

“The enemy”, racial discrimination…!
Are you for real? Are you Andrew Bridgen?

You sound very much like the rest of the neo-imperial “I want Brexit, I also want compensating for Brexit” brigade.

The only people shafting British pilots are the CAA and by extension, the Department of Transport. Otherwise known as the Conservative Party.

Got a problem with what’s going on, take it up with them. Or buy more Union flags to stick out your windows.

[Contact Approach]

Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP

I agree with this statement and perhaps it is for the best. G reg is simply worthless now, along with the UK licence.

[Ancient Observer]

"British citizens with British professional qualifications are being barred from applying for jobs in Great Britain by foreign companies in favour of workers with foreign qualifications. This has to stop or the simple home truth is that fuelled by long term structural unemployment this will lead to the most intense bitter and ultimately violent conflict."

I agree with the first sentence. However, I do not agree with the second sentence.

I would drop the over-statements from this campaign, as you will lose folk.

[Contact Approach]

The Uks biggest own goal was dropping out of EASA. Had they remained then British Pilots would be well and truly quids in just now. Good one Boris!

[Big_D]

Paul Rice

You won, get over it.

[myuseraccount]

Why all this moaning?

The UK left the EU and as a consequence left EASA.
EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused.

Many UK operators are getting Maltese EASA AOC's like Titan / TAG / Maleth / Flexjet and others to avoid 3rd country operator permits.

EASA only recognises EASA Licenses to operate aircraft.

UK CAA license holders had until the 31st Dec 2020 to do a SOLI and then get a UK CAA license back ( with delays ).

If you missed the deadline you can apply for an EASA conversion like with Transport Malta, all you need is:

Copy of your ATPL results
Initial EASA Medical
LST on the aircraft you currently fly ( check must be done within 7 years of your last EASA IR renewal ).

Am I missing something here?

[nickler]

Paul Rice

The vast majority of those who voted for Brexit had no effin clue what they were talking about; It’s a tad more complicated than “let’s leave the EU we want to be free!”. And that’s the result.

[Big_D]

The OP's anger is understandable, but unfortunately many of the aviators have (pre-Covid) supported the governing English National Party to keep their income taxes low and their property prices high.

This is the unintended consequence of their actions. Play silly games, win silly prizes.

[TheAirMission]

Myself and all the other colleagues that were on a Lauda assessment were all British. Granted, we had EASA Licences, and whilst I understand the sentiment with the problem of EASA licences and UK licences for a position within the UK, lets not assume its 'foreigners' being included and Brits barred from this position

[Chief Willy]

Good luck calling for a public boycott of airlines that do this. Precisely zero ****s will given by anyone, including by me, ill still book whatever is the best flight for me.

Time to accept that votes have consequences. Any UK pilot who voted for Brexit, working in an industry that depends on international economic and social links, is a total and utter moron. Now these people have the audacity to blame the EU for the bad deal we got! Why cant they accept they did this to themselves? We all warned you!

No-one in the UK cares about who is flying the plane, so long as it is cheap. Especially politicians.

[nomilk]

Wasn't it "we can still move to other countries and work there, we did so before the EU"?

[anson harris]

CW247

Do you mean except for all the people that said this would happen and were dismissed as "Project Fear"?
I'm actually pretty hard hit by all of this nonsense, but everybody who voted for this was told what was potentially in the pipeline and chose to ignore it for a blue passport.

[CW247]

This is incredible. No doubt you guys on your high horse right now are in jobs? How the heck did this thread go from being a genuine plea and call for action to becoming a dig at Brexiteer pilots? Brexiteers or not, there are colleagues out there with families to feed due to a complete **** up by the Boris Gang that couldn't, but should've secured equal rights for UK pilots.

Here's a response from my MP:


Dear ,

Thank you for getting in touch. This is an issue that _ is well aware of and we have been liaising with he Shadow Aviation Minister, Mike Kane’s team on this for some time.

As they understand it, CAA-EASA hadn't been allowed to negotiate an agreement until the Brexit deal was signed off, which was Christmas Eve, so the view is, that this should be ironed out “eventually.” That being said this is still a very frustrating situation for many aspiring pilots such as yourself. Can I ask if you are a member of BALPA? I understand that they have been very helpful in resolving similar issues across the country.

We have tabled two Written Parliamentary Questions, to the DfT, which you can read here:

Question: What assessment his Department has made of the impact of Brexit on a) the number of CAA qualified commercial pilots and b) the turnover of CAA qualified commercial pilots?

Answer: ”Between September 2018 (tel:+442018) and December 2020 (tel:+442020) some UK commercial pilots decided to transfer their licence to another EU Member State before the UK left the EU. Now that the UK is able to issue commercial pilot licences independently of the EU, we expect that many of these commercial pilots will now apply to hold a UK licence in addition to their transferred EU licence.”

Question: How many UK commercial pilots have had to requalify for a CAA license since the ATPL ceased to be recognised?

Answer: ”No pilots have had to requalify. To secure privileges after the UK has left the EU, some UK commercial pilots transferred their licence to an EU Member State.The EU Withdrawal Act ensures that transferred licences are recognised in the UK until the end of 2022. (tel:+442022) A new process now allows those who transferred the license to another Member State to obtain a UK license without having to requalify. Around 440 pilots have applied so far.”

Sam’s colleague Mike Kane, also tabled a WPQ which you can read here: https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-questions/detail/2021-03-25/175873 (https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fquestions-statements.parliament.uk%2Fwritten-questions%2Fdetail%2F2021-03-25%2F175873&data=04%7C01%7C%7C8a1f5ca872f1480b315b08d955cff20a%7C84df9e7 fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637635173866917967%7CUnk nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBT iI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=gxxwGuDUbLaNeRPrzpoutORPDo1efPYtt4x7CPNqOM0%3D&reserved=0)

Please be assured that we will continue to follow this closely.

Yours sincerely,
__
Parliamentary Assistant
Office of __

[FlyingStone]

Equal rights would mean EASA licence and the right to live and work in the EU. Which will never happen.

[highflyer40]

This was never going to happen. Wasn’t even a possibility. That’s the problem, the brexiteers were never realists. You have one country leaving a group of many others and they are always going to come off worse, because they are needed less.

[lear999wa]

First off, I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.
Something about chickens coming home to roost.

​​​Anyway, not to change the subject and all. However I would just like to point out that being British is not a race, but rather a nationally. The key here is that British subjects tend to be caucasians. Ironically the same race as that (majority population) of EASA member states.
Yes I know oh, it's all very complicated.
But I have my doubts that Easa is racially motivated.
All I can say, is that I'm happy that I SOLI out before the deadline. And to all those whinging about all this. Your time might be better spent converting over to an EASA Licence.
​

[iggy]

Paul Rice Most probably I'll get banned for what I'm going to say, but here it goes anyway:

As an European pilot I have been looked down by British pilots all my life. I have worked for a UK Operator and, during company induction and sitting in a class with other pilots, being thrown to the face by the instructor that I was a foreigner, and nobody said anything. And you know what? I ate my balls, decided not to play the discrimination or racial card (even though, as pointed above, we are all the same race in the UK and Europe), worked hard, studied, learnt a whole lot from the huge number of amazing aviation professionals that there are in the UK, finally getting the respect of everyone around me.

My professional life has taken me around, I have now 4 licenses, on my way to 5. All of the them involved studying ATPL, doing initial Class I medicals, and preparing for ATPL skill test, and all of them brought me a job.

I just don't recognize the moaning from your post from my time flying the UK. I can't recall anyone there being as childish and spoiled as you are showing. There is an airline offering you a job at home if you get EASA license? FFS, go and take the exams! It is not the first time I have seen a job offer in Europe, but only for FAA licenses as the airplane was N registered, so don't create a global conspiracy against British pilots where there is none.

Generally speaking, British pilots are arrogant, but goddam if they don't have enough reasons to be so with their skills and working ethics, I think you can be better than this.

[CW247]

Iggy you are another example of a mightier than though obnoxious little man who refuses to see that there are hundreds of British born pilots who did not vote for Brexit. They were not allowed to SOLI prior to Brexit as a condition of their employment. I was one.

This thread has become a platform for people like you to insult us. Makes you feel big I bet?

Right now, I assure you the majority of UK license holders are busy trying to obtain an EASA license again but the waiting times are horrific. Vast majority of NAAs are absolutely useless when it comes to progressing things. There is one that stands out as a shining example but they are being inundated with hundreds of applications. And no you don't need to take 14 exams!

[rudestuff]

Half the threads on here used to be about how to SOLI to EASA. I'll bet there are more Brits with EASA licences than Europeans with UK licences.

[wiggy]

This is incredible. No doubt you guys on your high horse right now are in jobs? How the heck did this thread go from being a genuine plea and call for action to becoming a dig at Brexiteer pilots?

Personal opinion : Because of the opening plea/claim that somebody made that nobody could have seen this could possibly happen….followed by the claims somebody else made that the present situation was all the nasty EUs fault - The first is nonsense and the second is also nonsense straight out of the Brexiters playbook.

The Brexit decision made it much more difficult for many of those “British born”, as you put it, to live and work within the EU. As a result I and many others have already spent the last five years jumping through hoops and spending the time needed trying to protect ourselves and our family’s futures from the consequences of that vote. The process has been time consuming stressful and expensive so frankly sympathy for those that caused this is in very limited supply, certainly in this household, regardless of whether they are an airline pilot or are in some other line of work.

I do genuinely feel sorry for those in the UK caught up in this who were perhaps to young to vote or voted against, but I have zero sympathy for any of the flag waving drum banging supposed patriots now looking for my support.

If they stopped sloping shoulders and realized they need to own this then I and others might find the ability to be a bit more supportive of them…until then..

[iggy]

Yo CW247 wassup!

No, I'm not a little man, pretty much the opposite to my disgrace. My AME keeps telling me to drop some weight or else.

And, if you would get off your horse, you'd realize that, actually, I'm doing the opposite to insulting you guys. Read again my post, please. I think you guys can overcome any agency trying to shaft you, or any airline imposing unreasonable policies on your license. Just do exactly as the hundreds of pilots you mention in your post: apply for a shiny brand new EASA license, and show the finger to whoever got you into this mess.

Coming here in tears doesn't help, and doesn't represent the British character I've got to known, either.

And just to let you know, I'm in the middle of acquiring a license, and, one year into the process, still no license in sight. Chaos and mayhem happens every where in the world, not just in Europe.

[Falling_Penguin]

I'm getting out of this industry. The agenda is fairly clear for those that are prepared to face up to their own cognitive dissonance and Stockholm Syndrome (as opposed to genning up on yet another HPL exam).

World Economic Forum 'Great Reset', Build Back Better bleated by major Western orientated political figures around the world in syncro, 'Net Zero' the new buzzphrase. W-patterns from outside the UK serving these isles is where I see it going, maybe some regional operators (Loganair) surviving. Cabinet model of government is in place; writing to your MP merely serves as some sort of light therapy for the confused and disenchanted. No meaningful opposition to the existential crisis our national industry faces - in fact the most destructive mismanagement choices possible (and why the silence from airline management boards?) - No effective resistence either from BALPA or any of the main political parties. BALPA censoring people found summarily guilty of wrongthink, ffs.

Yet people are so heavily invested they refuse to sit back and take the macro view. I understand this, heavily invested quite literally in some cases. But, sit back, do your FORDEC, GRADE, DODAR or whatever you need to.

Do consider that there may be an overall unpalatable agenda, which you are not being served up in mainstream media.

[wiggy]

Falling_Penguin

I’m not sure I buy into some of the global motives or things like the Great Reset for that matter, but hard to disagree with at least some of that.

[no sponsor]

BALPA will be completely useless. Always are.

As for the CAA, they might take notice in a few years when they see most newly qualified pilots in the UK applying for EASA licences. Only when their revenue stream is affected will they do something.

I considered converting my licence to a EASA one last year, but the CAA told me at the time they couldn’t guarantee I didn’t have to do the 14 exams to get the UK one back, since at the time nothing had been decided. So I couldn’t take that chance.

At the moment I will look into jumping through the hoops to do what is necessary to get a EASA one. But I think I’ll draw a line if it means I have to do a skills test in a 747-400 sim (which of course is now a completely useless rating).

In the meantime, I guess I’ll wait until Jet2 open their recruitment.

[anson harris]

EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused.

Correct - The ECJ has intervened in only one aviation case in 38 years but this was the main reason that pilots were sacrificed to the Brexit Gods. Ideology, pure and simple. But as we keep being reminded - it's what people voted for.

As a personal perspective, I can count on one hand the number of colleagues I've met in the last 6 years or so who haven't been pro-Brexit, usually in an extreme way. Maybe I was unlucky, but it seems hard now to have sympathy despite the huge disadvantage this has caused me personally. I've already lost one job offer because of it. What a ludicrous mess, but remember as someone already mentioned : "get over it, you won".

[BlindWingy]

Having been the victim of proven historical discrimination, I found two things really stood out for me during the whole experience. First - at the time, there was a strong, concerted effort to undermine the case for discrimination - this was orchestrated by those who profit from it. Don't be deterred. Second - get the names of those who reject your application based upon the discrimination, this will be useful in the legal action to follow. If not now, in the years to come.

[anson harris]

It's only as discriminatory as US carriers requiring a FAA Licence. I don't see any reason why European airlines should be made to do extra work to accommodate people from a country that has decided to give itself a collective knee to the groin.

[maxed-out]

Falling Penguin

Excellent post. However, many will refuse to see/believe/ accept what is really going on in the world right now. When it is openly said in the Word Economic Forum that we will all have less and we will be happier for it, it amazes me that people don’t catch on. Only the elite will be exempt from the rules, allowed to thrive and rule. The rest of us will just have to be content to survive, not thrive

[olster]

I am astonished at the level of vitriol and venom spouted here against those who voted for Brexit (actually not me if you are interested although it was close) . They include ‘morons’, ‘tits’, ‘arrogant’, ‘sinking in your own :mad:’. Basically you should be embarrassed and ashamed of yourselves; hard to believe that you hold atpl’s or have the intelligence for aeronautical decision making and mature, responsible behaviour. It is probably an internet thing; cowardly attacks from behind a keyboard. And by the way, a special mention for the poster that claimed that a brexiteer was a ‘tit’ , I think I work for the same airline as you. If so, I can tell you that a large swathe of TREs and training managers voted for Brexit. Feel free to call them a tit to their face when you turn up your LPC. No? I didn’t think so. We live in a democratic society and the vote was for Brexit so live with it. Back to the post. Leaving EASA was a mistake. In this thread it has been conflated with leaving the EU. They are not the same. The resultant Alice in Wonderland scenario is that on Dec31 a B737 pilot could fly an EI (other EASA states are available) B737 but not on Jan1. No matter how many hours on type or training qualifications. The fact that the U.K. CAA are allowing European EASA licence holders to continue flying on G registered airlines and with no reciprocity is quite obviously unfair and laced with political spite and opportunism. Hopefully common sense will return and mutual recognition of equivalent qualifications will be reinstated. I flew with many Europeans in various British airlines and I was delighted to do so. Please dial down the anger and insults, it is embarrassing on a supposed professional forum.

[Bergerie1]

The Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) was established in 1970 to apply joint certification standards for all European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) countries. It drew upon a lot of UK expertise, it was strongly supported by the UK and was a great step forward:-
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/JAA

EASA, established in 2002, included the JAA and added more regulatory functions. It was created by the EU with widespread industry support:-
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/European_Union_Aviation_Safety_Agency_(EASA)

When the UK decided to leave the EU it could have remained a member of EASA but, instead, for foolish ideological reasons, the government decided to leave despite being offered the option (like Switzerland) of continued membership. This was against strong industry advice:-
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2020-03-09/industry-troubled-uk-government-confirms-easa-departure

Those who voted for Brexit and those who have supported the current Conservative party have only themselves to blame for the current problems now facing, not only British pilots, but the whole UK aviation industry:-
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51783580

I now live in France (therefore many will say I am bound to be biased) but, viewing my country from afar, I am greatly saddened by what I see happening and even more so for those younger pilots who will now have their careers adversly affected, a problem that has been foisted upon them by those who have supported the current government.

[Theholdingpoint]

olster

No thanks, I have no interests in mutual recognition between EASA and the UK CAA. Not a single advantage on my side.

Trying to play the discrimination card on the request of EASA licenses (not EU citizenship, just a license) is laughable, even more the empty threat of "repercussions".

[Giuff]

olster

I totally agree with you. But you must also recognise that, if you legitimate somebody to give you a straight kick in the balls, then you cannot complain about the pain it causes. That is exactly what happened with Brexit. Everything was largely predictable. Not only in the aviation business.
Now you have to play with your broken toy, that you've bought with your own will.
There is no common sense in politics. Look at bojo agenda and deal with that.
I feel sorry for the many ex colleagues that are suffering due to this, but i feel no simpathy for those who voted out. They wanted it.
About LPC stuff, politics should stay outside the sim.

[pug]

Agree with most of that. I think the causal factor behind even the most successful and professional people voting for brexit is the insidious British exceptionalism which has been instilled in anyone born (probably) before the mid 90’s, pretty much from birth. It’s so deeply engrained that mistrust of foreign institutions is an autonomous reflex. The fact that EASAland had seen a heavy influx of CAA brains doesn’t even matter, if it ain’t in Britain it ain’t trustworthy.

Sadly we are in a mess of our own making, so I can fully understand and sympathise with those others at their wits end who feel compelled to use derogatory remarks. It’s time to be pragmatic however you voted, but please stop continuing to try to load the blame on the EU/EASA - it’s tiresome nonsense and only serves to nullify your argument/agenda.

[Giuff]

Spot on. Go on linkedin and have fun then.
Nonsense anti EU posts all around.

[olster]

Greetings Giuff! Thanks for broadly supporting my view. Without giving too much away and to clarify: I am a TRE with a well known uk airline. Just to clarify: I would never be anything other than fair to a candidate / trainee in the LPC scenario regardless of political views etc.It’s called professionalism. In the same vein I do not call colleagues tits for their political opinions either behind their backs via the internet or to their faces. Cheers.

[Giuff]

olster

i've never called anyone tit in my former UK Company. And i would never do that now.
In my former UK Company TREs were awesome.
Those times are sadly gone.
I would have loved to continue with my career on the other side of the Channel; things went another way.
Not my fault, neither yours.
Fair play.

[joblessPilot]

Just out of curiosity, do you guys have a UK CAA license or know someone that is doing the UK CAA licence?

[Mike_Harrison]

myuseraccount

So the UK could have remained EASA...!
I didn´t know that!
Well done for leaving!
That was a great idea!

[Douglas Bahada]

The vitriol on here is off the scale. Many of my colleagues hold EASA licences and commute into the UK to fly G reg aircraft. They have just 16 months to apply for a UK License to continue flying our G reg aircraft. The don’t have to give up their EASA licences. Many of them are awaiting transfers to continental Europe. To a person they are no better or worse at operating. However most are bilingual or trilingual and thus l consider them a more “ rounded” product than l am. My biggest regret is not learning a certain European language when living there.

The biggest threat to UK jobs is The PM and his bizarre travel restrictions. My airline will only survive because the UK AOC is being carried by our Europe operation. This summer is heading for disaster because this UK Government are making travel deliberately complex with a view to getting the proles spending in country. This is not a health issue anymore it is political.

[Dannyboy39]

For the sake of semantics on the thread title, it’s not a fight back at all is it? U.K. aviation professionals, not just pilots, are being shafted by this Vote Leave government for the sake of ideology.

You can say “I told you so” until blue in the face, but this doesn’t exactly make it any better does it? I didn’t vote for it, but it is amazing how many of said aviation professionals voted for Brexit despite such warnings. And we all suffer as a result.

As for perpetual travel restrictions being the biggest threat, I can’t agree more. The U.K. I saw was only at 16% of previous 2019 levels whereas big swathes of Europe are well above 50%. Even Eurocontrol are saying that the last month was about the best case scenario for them.. but hey, vaccines vaccines vaccines… EMA bad!

[wiggy]

As for perpetual travel restrictions being the biggest threat, I can’t agree more.!

I do absolutely agree with both you and Douglas..that’s where the problem now lies. There’s a fairly compelling reason for at least one person in this household to fly to the Uk but it’s not worth the risk of being caught out by a sudden, no notice change, from “Amber whatever it is today” to a brand new “purple with two stars” category.

The whole issue of the CAAs relationship with EASA, the EU licenses etc is to a great extent irrelevant ATM but makes for a handy distraction from the massive problems for the UK aviation industry that are being generated closer to home.

[Giuff]

You are absolutely right

[Alex Whittingham]

myuseraccount, could you reference the statement "EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused", please? It is the opposite of what I was told.

[tttoon]

Are British pilots not able to get an EASA license? As I understand it, they can, so I don't see who's being discriminated against.

And if they don't want to, they have the sovereignty to enjoy instead.

[Kelly Hopper]

I am afraid I have come to the unavoidable conclusion that this UK left wing tory government are quite deliberately doing everything they can to change the demographics of the country

Right at the beginning of the Brexit negotiations the UK announced that every EU citizen in UK could stay. This, without any request for reciprication? I was one of one and a half million Brits living in EU land with complete uncertainty for 4 years not knowing where our futures lie? Even now it was left to individual nations to decide what to accept.

Why would a UK government continueously put the interests of foreigners above the interests of their own nationals?

And now they have done it again. Other EASA issued licences permitted to operate G reg without a reciprical arrangement? It has to be deliberate?

I say that as it cannot be possible that our peers are that that stupid and useless? Or?

[nomilk]

I was one of one and a half million Brits living in EU land with complete uncertainty for 4 years not knowing where our futures lie? Even now it was left to individual nations to decide what to acceptSo after living in the EU you still did not understand the concept of sovereignty of each member state?

[TURIN]

I think Kelly Hopper has stumbled into the wrong thread. 😁
As for EASA membership, I still have my letter from the Minister in charge at the time (name escapes me as it was about four years ago) reassuring me that it is the UK government's intention to remain in EASA. Rees-Mogg and the rest of the hard line EU haters scuppered that when they rejected any authority from the ECJ. 🙄

[biddedout]

It was the intention of the government right up until April last year to remain in EASA and this position was supported by the CAA and industry. This position on EASA remained for nearly a year through the Johnson premiership and after Johnson appointed Shapps as Transport Sec. It wasn't until April last year that Shapps let slip that the UK would leave EASA. So why the sudden change in position when it was OK for Johnson and Shapps prior to this point? I think it is purely down to the snap election victory giving Johnson and his masters in the ERG the green light to do whatever they wanted no matter what the damage under the cover of more "will of the people". Full throttle ideological hard Brexit.
Because they have become very clever at running government through focus groups and Twitter, Shapps has never actually been put on the spot and explain his decisions. All we have had is a corny line from a DfT spokeswoman - remaining in EASA is not compatible with the UK having genuine economic and political independence. Which means Baker, Mogg, Francois etc just cannot bear the ECJ being involved in anything and as a result, we will all have to suffer.

The great Brexit irony is that we now have to comply with far more EU laws than we did when we were in the EU.

[PDR1]

It was always their intent to remain in EASA *provided* that we could do so without having the ECtJ as the ultimate arbiter, because the whole Brexit Mendocracy was rooted in the idea than we couldn't have some grubby-little johnny foreigner having jurisdiction over anything to do with decent British folk. This was bolstered with all the blather about the ECtJ always ruling against Britain (which was utterly unfounded, but what's one more lie amongst so many). I expect they assumed that they'd be able to demand membership with our own jurisdiction, but like so many things they promised it turns out that the EU had a different view, and they held all the cards. So they then had to drop the idea of staying in EASA.

Again, the founder members of the so-called "project Fear" warned extensively and in detail both before and after the referendum, but sadly we were jeered at. So people are now lying in the bed they made.

[biddedout]

Well said FDR 1.

Let's also not forget that the decision to leave EASA was probably made in the first quarter of last year, just as we were entering the first Covid wave and first lockdown when all hell was breaking loose and it was already becoming apparent that a quarter of UK pilot jobs were at risk. The ERG crazies saw a smoke-screen and just went for it. Hardest possible damaging Brexit was all they were after and the CAA and DfT were well aware that this licencing problem would arise but did nothing.

If current trends continue and more and more UK based pilots are required to have EASA licences then the ECJ will continue to have a say in UK domestic affairs as it will be the final arbiter in any dispute between these UK workers and EASA. Another Brexit own goal.

[Dannyboy39]

And when the transition period ended, we were in the grip of the second wave and 1000s dying every day. A sensible government would’ve extended the transition period, but no we got a fudged deal on Christmas Eve.

This Vote Leave government have no other intention, other to disrupt every industry (look at freight, not just aviation) for their pet project. For them, Covid is disguising a lot at the moment, but the chickens may now be coming home to roost in the next few months.

The people calling it “Project Fear” will still be calling it that whatever people say… fingers will gladly stay in ears, just like Trump supporters in the US.

[eagle21]

Simply ask for the CAA to change their position in this and obviously there will be other non beneficial counter reaccions. The current arrangement is only a temporary one and EASA can not trust the UK CAA past that point.

Also bear in mind that it is British license holders that are currently in this situation, this includes plenty of EU citizens. And there are also plenty of British EASA license holders benefiting from reduced competition at the recruitment stage giving them an advantage over their compratiots.

[MPPCAG]

I think the main point the OP is making is that these jobs are UK based and due to not having an EASA licence he can't even apply.... the right to live and work in the UK is totally separate from the requirement for an EASA licence for these jobs. Any company basing it's pilots in the UK should be forced to at least accept UK licences. Don't forget we didn't all vote for Brexit. Yes, there are consequences from Brexit but not being able to apply for a flying job BASED IN THE UK should not be one of them. Anywhere else in Europe, well so be it, that's what the majority voted for but here in the UK, this should not be happening, it's a ridiculous situation that should have been sorted a long time ago by Boris and co.

[back to Boeing]

Firstly I was replying to the poster above mine ranting on the airlines insisting on the airlines requiring the right to work in the U.K. they do.

as to the point on licensing. As things stand it is a requirement to have an EASA licence to fly an EASA registered aircraft no matter where it’s based. So the argument needs to be requiring U.K. based aircraft to be on the U.K. register. But that’s not going to happen. as has been pointed out many times the transport secretary’s own puddle jumper is N reg yet based in the U.K. admittedly that’s not for commercial use but you get the message.

[gtaflyer]

It’s not going to be resolved short term because these politicians don’t know or handle the pandemic In The one hand and looking at commercial knock on effects on the other. Holding a uk license one time was envy of the world but now no advantages in having it whatsoever..

[FlyingStone]

MPPCAG

EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.

Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.

[Trossie]

Hmmmmm! Are you sure?

[FlyingStone]

Yes. G-regs based in the EU are still possible, albeit they are only limited to UK routes (vice versa for EU-reg in UK). I believe Jet2 are doing this with their Spanish bases?

[Douglas Bahada]

So that will require a pilot having the right to work/live in EU presumably EU citizen, operating on G reg aircraft on a UK ATPL. Is that correct?

[FlyingStone]

Douglas Bahada

Correct.

[MPPCAG]

FlyingStone

That's all fair enough Flying Stone. I think you missed my point. ! was saying that a UK licence should be acceptable. A simple solution is to get an EASA licence of course but it's a pretty long wait now wherever you apply due to a huge backlog of applications (for obvious reasons). If I'm excluded from employment opportunities elsewhere in Europe due to Brexit, so be it but I don't expect it in my home country.

[Denti]

To be fair, EASA has softened its stance a lot since January and it is extremely easy to get an EASA license for UK pilots, especially if compared to all others in the same boat (third country nationals). There is still the need to be able to live and work in the UK for those outfits, or for UK airlines basing in the EU to be able to live and work in each country (there is no EU work permit) where they have bases.

[Giuff]

https://www.flyer.co.uk/uk-to-leave-easa-says-shapps/

Short memory bring troubles...

[biddedout]

CAA Board Minutes January 2020 (https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAA%20Board%20Minutes%20JAN%202020%20(CAP214501).pdf)
These minutes (Para 11) suggest that the CAA were becoming aware that the Government was likely to U turn on EASA membership in January 2020, just after Johnson won (lied his way to) a huge majority in the December election. As far as I am aware, the CAA didn't change their advice on their microsite so they never suggested that there was any advantage to be had by transferring to an EASA licence or no hint that there would be limitations for UK licence holders (except in the unlikely event of a no deal). We then spent the summer on tenterhooks whilst the people who claimed they held all the cards played a crude game of brinkmanship. Trying to choose the best licencing pathway would have been little more than guesswork, particularly for those in training or out of work.

The CAA could have been more proactive in updating their advice options but they would not have necessarily known which way the traffic rights were going to go in the final Dec 24th CTA. The draft Air Service Agreement negotiating document had been released by the Government over a year prior to this and in this document, there was a clause relating to social issues and not discrimination against or advantaging one group of workers over others. So, it was reasonable to assume that the people who held all the cards would have negotiated this into the final agreement. If not, why not?

Alas, it appears that we didn't hold all the cards after all. As it turned out, we got the bare bones - keep the planes flying deal and UK pilots were well and truly shafted. The CAA could have done more, but in the final few months of Brexit negotiation stand offs, they would have been punished by the Government and the RW press if they had dared to commit Brexit heresy and told the truth by suggested that pilots might be well advised to get themselves an EU licence ASAP.


"Wot! British pilots need a foreign European licence to work in their own country..:= That's not what we voted for, we didn't win two world............."

Johnson, Shapps and the ERG crazies have well and truly stitched up the UK pilots but the probably don't care one jot.

[Aviationtrader]

@Denti

How so? Is there a post Brexit SOLI process that doesn't entail resitting EASA theory exams and the CPL?

[nodeh586]

Also interested in the details of this...

[Smooth Airperator]

EASA has no choice in the matter. They would've been sued. It's like your foreign institution SUDDENLY deciding your diploma is worthless because you did it in a country that no longer has diplomatic relations with theirs. Simply stupid. The course material and exams were all EASA standard when we did them.
All member states have received a notice that they have to accept exams done in the UK. You have to ask the UK CAA to verify that information (pay £46 as usual). The accepting authority then sends an email which forms the basis of issuing your new EASA license.

[hunterboy]

Eagle has hit the nail on the head. It appears that it is the UK that has decided to disadvantage its own citizens in many cases, whether deliberately or through incompetence. I know which I believe to be the case.

[D9009]

It is interesting that a "large swathe of TREs" voted Brexit, although the intention to leave EASA was never revealed during the vote, I cannot understand why someone with that level of insight into the airline industry would vote for a process that would hinder international trade and want to damage the profitability of his/her company. If these TREs are at a scheduled carrier, what would be the point of harming a business that earns it's living flying Europeans around Europe?

If this really is the case, I'm not sure being a TRE necessarily qualifies an individual as being politically astute.

[D9009]

The point is, why would a pilot with any interest at all in friction free travel for passengers within Europe and tariff free freight transit across State borders think it would be a good idea to torpedo the business model. As James O'Brien of LBC fame puts it, it has been the greatest act of self harm in modern political history. Whether a pilot is a TRE or not, the implications should have been pretty obvious.

[D9009]

and what is wrong with foreign pilots? I have flown with great Dutch, German, French, Belgium, Polish pilots who seem to know what they are doing, but I wasn't actually referring to the flight deck alone, more to the industry itself..

[Mooneyboy]

It was the introduction of the EASA FTL’s that annoyed a lot of British based pilots just prior to the Brexit vote. You can see how telling British pilots that you can now increase your max working hours as it will mean another European country you have no connection with will now have safer limits is not exactly going to win Europe much sympathy with British pilots. This nearly swung my vote but thought either way UK will get shafted but better to be in than out.

Talk about democracy when the FTL’s was shambolically voted through in Brussels!

[D9009]

So the pilots at Lufthansa, KLM, Alitalia, Air France, SAS and Iberia clearly had no idea that their FTLs were unsafe.

[wiggy]

I know the whole EASA FTL debate annoyed a lot of people but did anybody really buy into the argument that by voting for Brexit plucky Brits working for British companies would get “good old CAP 371 back” and wouldn’t have to work those nonsense foreign FTLs….

Did anybody seriously think CEOs and the CFOs of British based airlines were going to acquiesce to that?

[BAe 146-100]

There is no fight back on the cards, the whole thing is perfectly legal and I doubt
any government on national or local level would step in to something that is perfectly legal. We have been using cheap European labour for years so how is this any different to use European pilots flying EU reg aircraft happened to be based here which its legal, because it is aviation? Boris and co have made it plainly clear that they don’t give two hoots about UK aviation other then scoring some manufacturing deals, I think UK pilots and there lisences are way down on the list of priorities unfortunately and it is just the way it is.

[Giuff]

I do agree with you; it is sadly funny to see that many UK colleagues wave the discrimination/racism flag on the issue. Easier to put the head in the sand than face reality. Blame game.
The only thing left to do is to go in front of Westminster and have a straight chat with the MPs that betrayed the promises made on all fronts.
Brexit is the greatest scam of all times.
There is no return i am afraid.

[Mooneyboy]

wiggy

No don’t think most really thought it would go back to the original CAA FTL’s but the supposedly democratic way it was voted through the EU showed a dark side.It didn’t enhance safety within the UK and nothing could be done about it.

Maybe it showed British pilots the ugly side of the EU when we’ve been told by many it was an angelic, pure and shining light of democracy.

[booze]

How about getting together and picketing. I'm not saying at number 10 but at your local MP-s or at the CAA or something. Would at least give you 20 seconds on the evening news coz i haven't seen or read anything on the issue so far in any of the major media outlets. I stand to be corrected of course. But if fishermen could put their foot down and at least got their issues to be debated about in the commons so flightcrew could get a similar result.

[wiggy]

Frankly if anybody believed the EU was angelic pure and a shining light of democracy then it’s also not surprising they also believed the leave campaign and they really do deserve the bridge they bought.

As I remember the FTL debate the argument as much as anything was that it stopped certain operators using permissive FTLs to undercut other operators in the EU…I know in an ideal world EASA would have rushed to buy into the supposed shining light that was CAP 371 but we’re back to the world of European organizations, horse trading and negotiating again….

The ironic thing (not) is that by putting themselves outside EASA I suspect British pilots have perhaps (only IMHO) made it easier for UK based companies to migrate even further away from 371, rather than move back toward it…and given the state of the industry in the UK the CEOs/CFOs have plenty of ammunition should they wish to go down that road with the UK CAA/HMG

[nomilk]

booze

You might get on the evening news, but the result might not be the same.

Flight crews have an image issue, they are seen as entitled, often arrogant and aloof. Whenever pilots talked about industrial action they were seen as pampered and even now I doubt that the public view will be much different.

[Giuff]

Being "Johnny foreigner" i am not surprised about anything. Enjoy some "southern Europe" political reality.

[D9009]

I don't believe there is much to separate our home grown crowd of corrupt politicos from their Southern European counterparts, it's just that it is more obvious the nearer you get to the equator

[Giuff]

You are having your share of that then.

[SaulGoodman]

no sponsor

B747 is currently the best rating to have. Cargolux, CLA, ASL, Air Atlanta, Silkway are all desperate for qualified 747 pilots. And at least some of them do take British UKCAA licensed pilots.

This whole Brexit saga is a effin mess. Anyone who said they didn’t see this coming did not think about possible consequences at all. Many of my British former pilot colleagues voted for Brexit, working for an EU company based in the EU commuting in from the UK. Incredible!!!

but if is any solace. I will not in a hundred years apply for a job in the UK ;)

[Vortex Hoop]

Are the UK right to work checks being diligently carried out...?

[LowPassGliderA330]

SaulGoodman

Saw the same thing happening at my workplace...
... and now they are all complaining around. Those, that did not convert to an EASA license have been terminated (because they were believing for some last minute solution? :D )

I strongly invite everyone to consider that this is not the fault of EASA or the European Union.

The brits voted out, so the 51% that voted for Brexit should deal with this now.

[FlightDetent]

Wiggy

Yes, more ancient and deep-rooted powers at play. Any change whatsoever will be used as an opportunity to reduce expenses. It's not even personal, worklife is a constant swim upstream.

UK citizens and customers, UK AOC and G- registered. Validate and welcome other countries' licences and nationals if required when appropriate, but all taxes and social dues stay home.

The largest trouble is when the rules already in place are being circumnavigated (WZZ / RYR / IAG / ME3) over an extended period of time. In the long run, the discontent between reality and legislation will be solved by adjusting the law.

The best leverage from what you actually have is making sure present-day regulations are being followed, the base is not being eroded. Brexit may have (?) brought even a few options there, as much as the easy access to EU mainland job opportunities has been lost.

UK is a massive and wealthy market. There should be enough work for UK passport holders but the goose needs attending.

Post #116 and similar. Don't export the jobs and cash if there isn't a reasonable equivalent in return, fair and friendly do go in hand.

with hartfelt wishes of best luck,

[SaulGoodman]

Its definitely not the fault of EASA/EU. However Brexit is also not the fault of the British pilots. British pilots that do possess both an EASA license and UKCAA license might actually have a good position in the future.

Setting up a new AOC cost a lot of time, money and effort. And as long as you are not planning to start flying within the UK you don’t need one. So these companies require an EASA license and the right to work in the UK. I don’t see how that is “discrimination” towards British pilots. There are also jobs for FAA licensed pilots with the right to live and work in the EU. Similar thing.

[Kelly Hopper]

Such irony when you consider that partly, Brexit came about by "Johnny Foreigner taking Brit jobs" but anyone saying that was of course termed a racist.

And yet after Brexit happens the ineptitude of the British government has created precisely that senario?

I really cannot help but think how the Australians would react in such a situation? Or the French?

But in the UK we have all been conditioned to simply suck it all up! 'Such a sad country now I am afraid.

[A320LGW]

Right now things are pretty bleak for UK citizens and license holders alike, the jobs seem to all be opening up in the EU requiring EU citizenship.

I would put a lot of this down to the restrictions on UK air travel. Once these restrictions are removed and UK air travel is really allowed to takeoff again the UK job market will expand and it will be limited to UK citizens.

In future there will be a lot of UK pilot positions exclusive to UK citizens whereas previously all of Europe could apply. At least this is what I expect - there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

[TURIN]

And vice versa.
The problem now is total reliance on the UK industry whereas a few months ago you had the entire EU industry to go at. EU pilots still have that option. UK pilots do not.

[Douglas Bahada]

For those crowing about BREXIT and the law of unintended consequences it may be worth considering that the EU is not the bed of roses it’s advocates believe it is. The Netherlands and France have sizeable leaving minded people. Poland and Hungary have sovereignty issues with regard to EU refugee quotas. In Germany local courts have ruled that local laws trump the European count. There is talk of tax harmonisation which will pitch the affluent Northern States against the Southern states.

[wiggy]

A320LGW

Can you get that in writing from HMG?

Look, as I’m sure you realize from my previous posts I think at best Brexit can be described as one of the most successful bait and switch operations of all time.

That said I hope for your and many other people’s sake the market recovers and pilot recruitment (both UK and EU) picks up, but I’d be highly sceptical that the people who created this mess are going to rush to ensure exclusive positions for UK citizens in the UK in any job.

[Porto Pete]

In future there will be a lot of UK pilot positions exclusive to UK citizens whereas previously all of Europe could apply.

Not quite correct. Irish citizens continue to have the right to work in the UK and vice versa.

[A320LGW]

Porto Pete
I am very aware having worked for an Irish carrier.
I was speaking generally.

[UberPilot]

I wouldn’t be so sure. I already know EU citizens living on the continent who have investigated the rewrites process to obtain the right to live and work in the U.K. for an airline - at my company the salary satisfies the points required.

[Banana Joe]

Indeed it's not hard to come to the UK after Brexit. Another own goal.

[Wodka]

Absolute omnishambles.

But with anything involving the UK CAA & BALPA, this is the usual predictable outcome. They are both clueless, lazy, arrogant organisations that are not fit for purpose.

It will take years to get any sensible changes pushed though now. EASA don't care.

[A320LGW]

Well I think we should all be getting onto MPs and BALPA in this regard. If we are ineligible to apply for jobs in the EU whilst EU citizens are able to apply for jobs in the UK, well that is a ridiculous state of affaires that must be seen to without delay.

And before anyone tries, no, this isn't "what I voted for".

[Jonnyknoxville]

I can only speak for Germany when I say it is a very simple process to get a work permit. I work with several British pilots who had a seamless transition after brexit

[Denti]

Actually, the shortage list does not really matter as long as a prospective employer thinks it a good idea to hire from the EU, If they sponsor a candidate he or she will have all the points needed to get a work visa in the UK. After all, pilots usually earn above the threshold and do speak the required level of english for the job. There is no shortage requirement to be a sponsor as a company.

[SaulGoodman]

A foreign airline can open a base in the UK. Cathay have done so too. Should they be hiring UKCAA license holders also?

In this situation these are EASA AOC holders who can legally operate UK-EU. To fly these machines you need an EASA license. To work out of the UK you need the right to work in the UK. I fail to understand how this is discriminatory against British pilots. Could someone explain this to me?

To all unemployed UKCAA license holders who did not already convert their license in the last 5 years I strongly urge to do so now.

[Trim Stab]

Slight thread drift - but are UK ATOs still allowed to train and examine to EASA licence requirements? Or has their business also been limited by Brexit to UK citizens who want to spend a fortune to obtain a UK CAA qualification with somewhat reduced employment possibilities? Or has the 10-15% collapse of the pound against the euro helped their business with the EU trainee market?

[Alex Whittingham]

UK ATOs were able to set up EASA equivalents before exit day subject to the main place of business rules or, alternatively, apply for fast track direct EASA approval starting the day after exit day. Most have taken the latter path and can offer both UK CAA and EASA ticks for the same course. My recollection is that the exchange rate was £1 = €1.11 around exit day and is now at €1.18, so the other way round I think, its the euro what has gone down relative to the pound.

[Edgington]

Only issue with UK ATO's also getting an EASA approval is that an initial EASA IR skills test must be flown in EASA airspace, also some familiarisation training must be done in EASA airspace. Which is is fine if you're based in Southern England, but don't understand why some further north have done the same. Probably why CAE Oxford moved their Seneca's Belgium.

[Trim Stab]

Alex Whittingham;

It was around €1.30 just prior to the referendum in 2016…

[Flymed54]

Which is what both the official and unoffical leave campaigns promised