L3Harris

[futurepilot22]

Hi all,

I am looking to start my UK Integrated ATPL training at the start of next year and have managed to whittle the countless UK flight school options down to L3Harris. From looking at their website, their promotional videos and video tours of the facilities it is where I picture myself the most. Their pilot placement pool, reputation and links with major airlines is very appealing and I believe these atributes would help me get a job in what will be a very competitive market in 2 years time.

Anyhow, I have now started to look at reviews for this company and every single review says the same thing: L3Harris Integrated course is a waste of money, there are constant delays in the flying phases of training with integrated students at the bottom of the pecking order below MPL and RAF cadets adding months on to the advertised duration of the course. They also say that the students are treated as a number with no regard for the fees they have paid and the lack of communication and service they are receiving. A lot of reviews mention that the pilot placement pool is nothing to be excited about, the links that L3Harris has with airlines is dwindling and most students manage to find their own job quicker and with no help from the company (this could be pre covid of course when jobs were in abundance). I did speak to a careers advisor at L3 who mentioned that since the MPL cadet programmes are not running at the moment then there shouldn't be any extra delays in the flying phases due to oversubscription of students but the reviews still paint L3 in a bad light.

Is there any current or past L3Harris students here, or anyone in the know, that are able to confirm or elaborate on the above concerns? I get the feeling I have been fooled by the L3Harris marketing and I may as well pay less money and go to a less well known flight school but get a better service and potentially have the same chance of finding my own job as if I went to L3.

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

[parkfell]

There is sufficient advice on PPRuNe as to the ‘challenges’ of being a L3 customer.
You seem to recognise that Snake Oil Salesmen exist.
I recently gave advice as to what potential junior birdmen need to consider before spending their hard earned cash. I suggest you read that, and other sound advice by RUDESTUFF in his posts. Do this research before proceeding any further.

The maxims are : CAVEAT EMPTOR + DUE DILIGENCE

Obtain your Class One Medical before anything else.

[olster]

You have been given the information through pprune. Disregarding the white noise around here the overall point repeatedly made is that L3 have no influence with any airlines in the UK because there Is virtually zero pilot recruitment. If they tell you any different you are being lied to. They do apparently have some foreign contracts plus the Air Force but do not expect to be delay free and do not expect much respect in return for the overpriced product. It has been repeatedly said and if you are genuinely enthusiastic about Aviation, take the modular route, enjoy the journey and when the time comes you will be eligible for any airline that survives the current carnage. Do not be fooled by marketing experts, they are after your cash. There are repeated warnings on here and caveat emptor really applies. Good luck anyway.

[futurepilot22]

parkfell

thanks for your post. Sorry I am new to PPRuNe. Where can I find the advice given by you and RUDESTUFF?

[parkfell]

Return to my post, and select my user name. The drop menu gives an option to view other posts.
For Rudestuff use the search engine top of the screen.

[VariablePitchP]

I’ll keep it short, I was with L3 as it was changing over from CTC. Holy smokes are they cowboys. You are absolutely right in what you’ve heard. Nothing more than a number with a dollar sign around your neck.

They want you to meet the minimum standard and out the door as fast as they possibly can, regardless of how much your training suffers. Unless, of course. It’s cheaper to delay you and take other people’s money. Then they’ll do that, be safe they couldn’t even pretend to give a toss about you as an individual.

All they are good at is branding.

I have NEVER met anyone with a good thing to say about them.

[futurepilot22]

VariablePitchP

You know you have basically just confirmed it for me. I have been the typical sucker for their advertising and their so called world-renowned reputation and airline links. I havn't came across a single review that doesn't criticise their delays and lack of care for the student. Their airline links appear to be dwindling and those who supposidly got job offers with L3's pilot placement pool before they had even finished their course seem to be a thing of the past. Everyone on pprune is right, why pay all that money for the same license you can get elsewhere at half the price, especially in this current climate. I made the naive decision that going with L3 would increase my job prospects all because of their superb marketing. Shame their customer satisfaction isn't so superb. I am now reconsidering the smaller flight schools and the modular route. Back to the drawing board I guess.

Thanks for taking the time to voice your experience.

[Ascoteer]

Going to any training provider is insanity at the moment.

[Tay Cough]

Why? Anyone starting to train in the next few months will be spat out of the system in eighteen months to two years time.

[Chief Willy]

What makes you think there will be jobs in just 18 months time? The pandemic is still raging globally, international travel restrictions are getting WORSE not better. There are 10s of thousands of unemployed experienced pilots. The industry is crippled and has little capital to expand afterwards, and any expansion will be throttled by environmental concerns. 18 months is waaaaaaayyyyyy too soon.

[D9009]

The financial fallout of the pandemic will also hamper airline expansion.

[dogeatdog1]

I agree. This pandemic is just way too unpredictable to be putting estimates and dates on when the pilot shortage will return. I finish school in 2 years and I really want to become an airline pilot but i'm very sceptical as I know there's a massive chance that i might leave a flight school in 2024-25 with upwards of £120,000 of debt with no pilot jobs available, which would be a total nightmare.

[Contact Approach]

There is no way on Gods earth I would consider flight training right now. It's an absolute waste of money.

[parkfell]

Go to university & study something you enjoy. Reassess in your final year

[dogeatdog1]

Yeah, I was thinking a course in aviation management or maybe aerospace engineering; they sound quite interesting and they'd give me a foothold in the theory side of ATPL training if i did decide to go ahead with it. Even if I don't become a pilot i'd still quite like to work in the aviation sector.

[rudestuff]

Nothing beats a 3 year degree - level course in preparing you for a 6 month GCSE - level course 👍

[squidie]

Integrated flight training is insanity right now. Go modular if you must start training, it’s cheaper and you control the amount of time it takes and effort, weather and performance depending of course.

Are you in a job already or out of work? If you’re in a job you can obviously do the job part time and fly/study the rest.

[paco]

condor - that's actually not a bad idea - there are very few solicitors who really understand what the authorities can and cannot do

[parkfell]

Condor775

Excellent idea. Flying for pleasure is fun as well; when things calm down, you can think again.
Probably aged 40 as the cut off, although others will undoubtedly have their views…!

[Capt Ecureuil]

I have a very close connection with them at the moment, what do I think..... Just don't
The ground courses are a total shambles
They will have zero interest in you as an individual
You won't be able to contact anyone if you have a problem
They've fired a lot of ground instructors, the remaining ones say they hate the company
Initial flying training is now done in Portugal or Southern Ireland by contractors

[speedrestriction]

I personally know tens of very good, very experienced pilots out of work. There are thousands and thousands of folk like this across Europe.

The majority of airlines will be far more interested in these guys first. Even if there is a year of brisk recruitment, not all these folks will be back working on the flight deck. There is no sign of brisk recruitment at the moment. I would strongly suggest awaiting some solid evidence of a sustained recovery before committing any level of funding beyond PPL or ATPL ground school at the moment.

Splashing out large sums on training at the moment is a huge gamble, you generally only get one shot at it. Be patient and let the target come closer before you take your shot.

Trust me, you are missing out on nothing at the moment - a little patience and wisdom at the moment will serve you far, far better in the long run.

[DH106COMET]

futurepilot22

Unfortunately everything that you have heard is true. L3 and their main competitor CAE only care about one thing and that is money. They view pilot training as a production line, make very little money at it and therefore try to push everybody through as quickly as possible with little regard for the standards of training. Until very recently they suffered from a lack of instructors and therefore students suffered from very large training delays. The same was true of CAE. If you are looking for a high quality training provider in the UK who really cares about their students you should try Leading Edge at Oxford. Whatever happens though, don't be fooled about their so called airline partnerships. The only airline recruiting in the UK / Ireland right now is Ryanair. However, their scheme is both unreasonably expensive, offers few guarantees and the employment conditions if you ultimately secure regular flying are terrible. It will probably be 2 or 3 years before any decent airline jobs become available.

[dogeatdog1]

I agree. L3 are probably one of the worst offenders when it comes to not looking after students, I’ve seen over the pandemic they’ve been dumping huge fees on MPL students who have had their employment offer withdrawn and are then trying to move over to the ATPL course; one thread shows a student who’s total training fee came to £173,000!

A lot of people get sucked into their lies and sadly they just can’t see that it’s too good to be true. The earth could be on the brink of destruction and L3 would still be telling students that there’s a ‘looming pilot shortage’ when in reality they know the chances are that these students are probably not going to find any pilot jobs for the next few years even though they’ve just led them to believe it’s safe to start training and many of these students will have taken out massive loans secured on their parents homes. I honestly think L3 misleading students like this should be illegal.

[Chlongg]

L3 grad here,

everything you have read is correct, an abysmal experience from a customer point of view, however their only saving grace is that 90% of the instructors I genuinely could not fault. The odd bad egg, but to be expected in a company of that size, but the majority were well aware of the treatment cadets were receiving and would bend over backwards to help you.

The company itself I witnessed get worse and worse over the 3 years it took them to complete my training. It has sold up NZ due to the pandemic, which to be honest was the best part by far of the training. It seems that it’s got to the point now from cadets that are still in the training chain that the majority of flying has been outsourced to other flight schools, with many cadets being sent to AFTA and LEA