Look out the window?

[flyboyqw]

I fly the A320 but this question applies to any aircraft which can fly an ILS on an autopilot and has flight directors.

A technique often taught is to look more outside the window and less at the instruments once disconnecting the autopilot on an ILS approach. Personally, I think that is making it yourself difficult. I find it much easier just to keep flying the flight directors to about 100 ft. That is not to say not to look outside at all, but to look more in than out. On a VOR it's different, I am just talking about an ILS approach.

One argument I get is that new pilots need to learn manual flying skills and not flying the FD so much. But then I even see experienced pilots always doing this. Doing this sometimes for practice, ok. But always? I just don't see the point of it.

[FlyingStone]

If you can't fly the aircraft by using visual references after disconnecting the aircraft stabilised in landing configuration, on speed and in trim, and only looking inside to scan airspeed, vertical speed and N1, something has gone amiss during training. It's really one of the basic skills every pilot should have.

[Check Airman]

If proficiency is your goal, keeping the FD on is a waste of your time. Turn it off, and fly the approach. Alternate approaches looking outside, and raw data inside.

To add to (or maybe subtract from) what FlyingStone said, in a modern airplane, with a trend vector, you don’t even need to scan the N1 too often. VSI and airspeed will get you there safely.

[pineteam]

What they both said… Yes I know lots of experienced crew always glued to the FD. That’s probably why their handling s*ck. Even my Grandma can follow FD bars. xD

[speedrestriction]

If you do not develop and maintain proficiency in flying the aircraft with reference to external visual cues you will struggle with visual approaches and circling approaches. You don't want to find out that your skills are lacking in this area when conducting an approach in challenging weather conditions to a small Mediterranean island airport with limited lighting etc.

[Thumb War]

It’s gotta be a windup doesn’t it?

[Uplinker]

There is not a huge amount of point in following flight directors on a manual ILS, except during a very turbulent approach perhaps. You have the ILS indicators for that. If you look out of the window and not at your ILS indications, that makes it a visual approach.

Having said that, I am definitely not perfect and I am definitely not preaching !

Regarding the speed trend arrow; that does not tell you what the N1's are doing. The speed trend is a cue for one to look at the N1/EPRs to see if the engines are being commanded correctly (if A/THR is being used). It only takes a second to look.

[donpizmeov]

In the old days we became pilots because we wanted to fly aeroplanes. Looking out the window is one of the reasons why.
To stay locked onto the TV screens until 100 feet is really worrying. It would suggest you don't know where the aim point on the runway is, nor where the aim point should be in that window.
Root cause of this is that most pilots these days do there training in simulators, and are told to just follow FDs. What a shame. Knowledge of the attitude required for each configuration and phase of flight is diluted to just follow the FDs.
Do yourself a favour. On your next approach identity the aim point (between the papis ) and see where it is in the window. On the type I fly its about a closed fist above the comming. You will notice flight path deviation by seeing this move way before the FDs wake up.
Those windows are expensive. Might as well look out of them.
Don't be scared of flying the aeroplane.

[Uplinker]

That works in a C172 because one flies visually most of the time because the instrumentation is very basic.

We obviously look out of the window to land and take-off but we are trained to fly in IMC, by reference to our instruments. If pilots are now being taught to follow the FD and not look at the aircraft's pitch bank and speed, that could explain a lot.

[Kelly Hopper]

The subject of this discussion makes me never want to board a commercial flight again!

[vilas]

Once you see the runway it's both in and out. Head for the aiming point but a glance inside. In Airbus it's easier since it maintains flight path. If you want to develop raw data skills then you will have to practice doing it without FDs. But once you have it then to keep it effective you can do a few approaches now and then on as required basis.

[PilotLZ]

Below the DH for your approach (which is supposedly the CAT I DH of 200 feet if we're talking manual landings) nobody guarantees you sufficiently accurate ILS guidance. Whenever the aircraft is required to fly the ILS until touchdown, low visibility procedures are in force for this exact reason - to make sure that a holding aircraft or a passing truck will not give you an ILS signal glitch. Hence, blindly following the FDs below DH can be risky. Your scan should alternate between inside and outside, with more focus on outside as you get lower. The touchdown zone should stay in the same point of the windshield. Once you get to the flare, you should be looking about 100 metres or so ahead of the aircraft. If you're looking straight under the nose, you'll likely flare too low or not flare at all which can result in a hard landing. If you're looking too far ahead, e.g. to the opposite end of the runway, you might flare too high - which, if not corrected promptly, can result in an even worse hard landing compared to the low flare scenario.

[RichardJones]

Anyone remember something essential in aviation? It was referred to as AIRMANSHIP. The first and most important rule of airmanship is LOOKOUT! What on earth are the flying training outfits teaching these "graduates" from the sausage factories these days?

"VFR on instruments" is something that has been creeping in for years now. Get your eyes out of the cockpit as often as you are able. even at the expense of accuracy. It also reduces the chance of a collision, both in the air and on the ground.

I don't care what you fly, the basics still apply. Mark one eye ball.

[fire1982]

my God, I m speechless about this post..

[Nick 1]

Looking out is scary , especially when you can fly circling , “visual “ circuit , non precision down to the runway following the flight director..

[a350pilots]

Shocking.
Which airline do you fly for?

[Banana Joe]

Does your operator allow you to fly raw data, that is without FD on? If yes, practice when the weather and the work load allows. And if you can not, learn to fly through the FD.

[Good Business Sense]

My old outfit had a period of heavy landings - turned out that inexperienced copilots were heads in flying the FD all the way into the flair. Not looking out at all.

[Rie]

Unfortunately this is the new generational shift that is pushed even further with the introduction of MPL. I learnt to fly on planes without GPS and most instruments U/S when VFR. This meant looking outside.

Now that large parts of training are focused on screens (G1000 etc) and simulators people tend to just enjoy the pretty graphics.

It isn't going to be an issues for the majority of the time but what happens when something isn't by the book?

[crimito]

What about a good scan, both inside and outside? That's what I usually do. Anyway, if FD's are on, you must follow them, at least in my airline.

[ACMS]

Agree with all of the above and besides it’s easier………

[FlightDetent]

identity the aim point (between the papis ) Say that again?

[TukwillaFlyboy]

Good grief.
There is another thread discussing a mishandled go-around in an A350.
Thats what this sort of thinking ends up causing.
Glad I’m almost at the end.
The profession of “Pilot” is dying.

[Wirbelsturm]

Glad I’m almost at the end.

You and me both!

Imagine the confusion when flying the 'FD's' heads in to the 'deck' during an RNAV or an NPA when the MAP is waaaaaaay earlier! (HND Rwy 22 or the Canarsie are prime examples imvho)

Throw in a time critical event mayhap and the jet t'would be all over t' shop!

[Check Airman]

crimito

Some people don’t realise you can turn them off, it seems.

[Banana Joe]

But unfortunately there are several operators that prohibit their crews to turn them off unless required by the procedure.

[MetoPower]

I m speechless about this post..

So am I.
I reached the end 2 1/2 years ago with no regrets.
Unfortunately this is the trend and fashion with the "Magenta Line Pilots" and this one will probably soon become a fleet manager .... say no more!!!

[Check Airman]

Somebody sent me a quote recently:

Under pressure, you will not rise to the occasion- instead, you will sink to your level of proficiency

Wise words.

[Fly3]

Check Airman
That's a good one.

[The Banjo]

I had trouble during lower vis training when getting visual at the bottom. Looked at the runway too much and got very wobbly and unstable. Fixed by confirming visual then mostly back to the dials until 50'

[mgahan]

Is this not "Dominant Response Hierarchy", Which is why we drill procedures so they become dominant response in an emergency when stress levels are higher.

[Vessbot]

Many times, the relevant "procedure" not "drilled" being to simply fly the plane...

Reminds me of this haunting snippet of transcript:

02:44:18 CA: See what the aircraft did!
02:44:27 FO: Turning right sir
02:44:30 CA: What?
02:44:31 FO: Aircraft is turning right
02:44:32 CA: AH
02:44:35 CA: Turning right?
02:44:37 CA: How turning right
02:44:41 CA: Ok come out
02:44:41 FO: Over bank
02:44:41 CA: Autopilot
02:44:43 CA: Autopilot
02:44:44 FO: Autopilot in command
02:44:46 CA: Autopilot
02:44:48 FO Over bank, over bank, over bank
02:44:50 CA: OK
02:44:52 FO: Over bank
02:44:53 CA: OK, come out
02:44:56 FO: No autopilot commander
02:44:58 CA: Autopilot
02:44:58 EC1: Retard power, retard power, retard power
02:45:01 CA: Retard power
02:45:02 : Sound similar to overspeed clacker
02:45:04 CA: Come out
02:35:05 FO: No god except...
02:35:05 SV: "whoop" sound similar to ground proximity warning
02:45:06 END OF RECORDING

[Check Airman]

Perhaps it is. You’ve introduced me to the term. In our case, for many people, the dominant response is “more automation”. Those people scare me. I have seen first hand their dependence on the FD for the simplest of tasks, and to say it’s concerning is an understatement.

[Check Airman]

The Banjo

I think that’s a pretty common problem. I’ve seen and done it in the sim. This is where training works. Stay inside for as long as possible, and it keeps things going well.

[BoeingDriver99]

Errrrrrrr isn't that the problem?

[Check Airman]

I should’ve been more clear. I’d only do that under low vis, where some people have a tendency to destabilise an approach (either by going above or below the GS) after breaking out. Gotta make sure you stay on the glide slope.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Has something gone wrong in modern aviation (or the training)? I was always very grateful for "modern" aids in my flying career (and they kept appearing and I used them!) but was always told (and always did) use them as aids until I was happy to go visuaL! I also taught this in both the military and civil world. for many years! Guess I am now well out of date!

[FlightDetent]

And so the cat is out.

[Check Airman]

Not seeing what the problem is here. In one specific situation, some people have a tendency to destabilize an approach after going visual. What's wrong with protecting against that by keeping a close eye on the glideslope? Now if you can't do it from a 6 mile final, that's a bit different.

[FullWings]

But, if you’re following the FDs, that means you’ve taken the autopilot out! No wonder you’re having problems! Scary stuff... :ooh:

In my outfit, we do a lot more AP out FD off visual stuff in training than we used to, often to a runway that has no slope guidance at all, as skill fade does happen in this area. It is surprising how many people have forgotten about simple aiming point technique and/or have got used to being fed by the FD and ignoring what’s going on outside. The way some approaches are coded can leave a nice surprise for you if the MAP is before the threshold and you’re a religious devotee of the magenta cross...

[Wirbelsturm]

The whole premise of manually flying the final part of the approach, in my opinion and experience, is to 'ingrain' that sight picture into your head and train memory muscle for the time that the approach aids aren't available to you.

Most modern aircraft fly an ILS better than I can anyway, I do fly fully manual approaches when I can, just to try and prevent skills atrophy. Again though that is my personal preference and not something that I would try and force upon my flying colleagues. If there is a coded waypoint to 50ft above the threshold then the FD's will give you good guidance and can be left on. If the MAP is behind you the FD's will feed you rubbish and 'AP out FD's off' is the call.

By all means glance at the FD's, if they are giving you good info, during the final approach but the primary guidance factor should be transferred to outside of the cockpit once 'visual' has been called. Those are the skills that we get paid higher than average wages to train and retain for the , god forbid, one time we might really have to rely upon them.

[blue_ashy]

I can just see it, I hit the drone/birds in clear weather because I was 5ft below the G/S on the FD's.

Ops solution : Fly the FD's better.........