HMS Defender

[NutLoose]

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-giving-two-sandown-class-mine-hunters-to-ukraine/

“In the near future, the Ukrainian Navy is expecting a transfer to its warehouse of two ships type “Sendown” that are currently in the Royal British Navy, after their full audit, repair, upgrade, additional equipment and adequate preparation of the Ukrainian Navy personnel.

In addition, eight missile boats will be built according to the requirements of the Ukrainian Navy, the first two of which will be built directly in the United Kingdom, and the other will be built already in Ukraine. The assistance of the United Kingdom in the construction of naval bases on the Azov and the Black Sea is also planned.”

Announcing the memorandum, the British Embassy in Kiev said (https://www.facebook.com/ukinukraine/posts/4301396149881201):

[Levelling_the_Land]

In "unrelated" news

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/23/russian-ship-fired-warning-shots-at-royal-navy-destroyer-hms-defender-moscow-says

"A Russian military ship fired warning shots at British Royal Navy (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/royal-navy) destroyer HMS Defender after it entered Russian waters in the Black Sea and a Russian jet dropped bombs in its path, Interfax cited Russia’s defence ministry as saying on Wednesday."

[OvertHawk]

No correlation at all I'm sure. :ugh:

[ORAC]

Nit the first time in the last couple of months the Russians have made such claims.*

Sky reporting the RN has denied the latest claim, as it did the last, stating that they were in international waters at all times and that the Russians were holding a live fire exercise and never came closer than 3nm to their vessel.

* https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9624523/British-warship-expelled-Crimean-coast-Russia-FSB-claim.html

[atakacs]

Well whatever happened I don't think it very wise to navigate within 3nm of a live fire exercise. What could possibly go wrong?!

[Asturias56]

"What could possibly go wrong?!"

In the Black Sea? Hardly anything.............. :uhoh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

[Not_a_boffin]

Seems like a very well executed combined FON and media op.

In March / April that nice Mr Putin unilaterally declared an exclusion zone in the Black Sea contrary to the provisions of UNCLOS.

HMS Defender leaves Odessa to transit to Georgia, including innocent passage through Ukrainian (Crimean) territorial waters, as permitted by UNCLOS.

Russia puts out media blast "Rodina stronk - warship chased away with live fire after violating Russian waters".

UK MoD - calm statement, ship was not fired upon, normal passage etc.

Followed up by BBC correspondent on the ship, noting that ship didn't deviate, despite lots of Russian buzzing and that she intended to follow that course.

Message delivered. Contest Russian actions iaw NSS.

Sod off Sergei.

[Kiltrash]

HMS Defender has been caught sailing a bit close to Russian water. Of course it's two sided? RN says it was sailing in a recognised route

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57583363

Interesting the ship has a BBC reporter on board. By chance? Or deliberate provocation to obtain a documentary?

[A_Van]

HMS Defender has been caught sailing a bit close to Russian water. Of course it's two sided? RN says it was sailing in a recognised route

It is reported here that it was not "close to" but 3 km (well, about 2 NM) inside the border. And did not react to any signals sent.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57583363

Interesting the ship has a BBC reporter on board. By chance? Or deliberate provocation to obtain a documentary?

Definitely, a deliberate provocation. Not a serious one though as the ship herself is not a big threat, but what was it for?

[Right20deg]

A good idea to place a BBC reporter on board. We need to have that coverage to show the public exactly how Russia treats others on the sea and in the air. Much as always, Russia is using mis information and lies to make its position and intent clear to its population. Doesn't work for the rest of us.

[ORAC]

Already being covered on another thread.

This will go down well with Mr Putin.. (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/641193-will-go-down-well-mr-putin.html)

A pool reporter covering a naval visit to Ukraine certain to arouse Russian anger and response - and which reveals the Russian claims about opening fire and dropping bombs in her path as bull****.

Nice fly-bys by the Fencers though - clean winged with no armament I noticed.

[Less Hair]

RN went through international waters as the Crimea annexation is not internationally recognised. No deliberate firing at HMS defender and no intentional practice bombing nearby according to MOD.

[ORAC]

Even if you accepted it was Russian waters they were entitled to sail the route they did.

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) enshrines the concept of innocent passage through a coastal state’s territorial sea. Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state. A vessel in innocent passage may traverse the coastal state’s territorial sea continuously and expeditiously, not stopping or anchoring except in force majeure situations.

Military and commercial vessels alike always enjoy the right of innocent passage and self-defense while within the territorial sea of a foreign state, granted they do not undertake activities which can be interpreted as a threat to the coastal state or engage in the use of force against the coastal state, including the “launching, landing, or taking aboard any aircraft or military device,” per Article 19 (2) (f) of UNCLOS (http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm).

[Not_a_boffin]

It is reported here that it was not "close to" but 3 km (well, about 2 NM) inside the border. And did not react to any signals sent.



Definitely, a deliberate provocation. Not a serious one though as the ship herself is not a big threat, but what was it for?

Beggar off and read UNCLOS Sergei. You probably ought to bone up on the other treaties regarding borders as well. Just a thought.....

[k3k3]

The UK doesn't fell threatened when Russian Navy ships sail through the straits of Dover, so why do the Russians fell threatened? Guilty conscience?

[OvertHawk]

Beggar off and read UNCLOS Sergei. You probably ought to bone up on the other treaties regarding borders as well. Just a thought.....

Why should he worry about treaties and borders...?

His ilk care not for such things.

[West Coast]

It is reported here that it was not "close to" but 3 km (well, about 2 NM) inside the border. And did not react to any signals sent.



Definitely, a deliberate provocation. Not a serious one though as the ship herself is not a big threat, but what was it for?

Your information from media reporting?

[Krystal n chips]

And on the subject of MSM reporting this event, thankfully, the Mail had a representative on board..

Newspaper headlines: Drama aboard HMS Defender, and manslaughter PC - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57590098)

[MG]

And on the subject of MSM reporting this event, thankfully, the Mail had a representative on board..

Newspaper headlines: Drama aboard HMS Defender, and manslaughter PC - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-57590098)
Wow, just how brave was he? Makes you feel proud to be British!

[FODPlod]

It is reported here that it was not "close to" but 3 km (well, about 2 NM) inside the border. And did not react to any signals sent.

Definitely, a deliberate provocation. Not a serious one though as the ship herself is not a big threat, but what was it for?

See here for chapter and verse on the ‘right of innocent passage’, even through the territorial waters of a Russian-invaded part of the Ukraine:
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
Article 17

Right of innocent passage

Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.

[Willard Whyte]

It made it in to Wikipedia about an hour after the event

2021 Black Sea Incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet#2021_Black_Sea_Incident)

[highflyer40]

It is reported here that it was not "close to" but 3 km (well, about 2 NM) inside the border. And did not react to any signals sent.



Definitely, a deliberate provocation. Not a serious one though as the ship herself is not a big threat, but what was it for?

They left a Ukrainian port and were in Ukrainian waters, so what border did they cross? They had the right to cruise right in Sevastopol. Might not be wise but not illegal.

[dead_pan]

I wonder if this has anything to do with the footie i.e. Russia crashing out at the bottom of their table, Ukraine going through? All a bit embarrassing for Putin.

Conflicting stories here in the UK media, including from those which had correspondents on the ship!

[ETOPS]

The Russians simply following Putin's stated policy "не война, не мир" - not war, not peace. Like a grumbling appendix they keep reminding the west that they have an agenda such as seen in eastern Ukraine, Baltic States and the Black Sea.

[Navaleye]

I think the Russians should be thanked for providing such a wonderful training opportunity. Makes a normal Thursday War seem a bit wimpish. The entire thing will be recorded and analysed. The CO acted correctly so BZ to Defender.

[FODPlod]

It made it in to Wikipedia about an hour after the event

2021 Black Sea Incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet#2021_Black_Sea_Incident)

The Wiki entry still shows the Russian version of events including three falsehoods.

In fact:
a. The border patrol ship carried out no warning firing

b. Bombs were not dropped along HMS Defender's route.

c. The confrontation occurred in the territorial sea of Ukraine's Russian-invaded Crimea, not the Russian Federation..


This is a classic demonstration of why one should never trust Wiki as an authoritative source.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x229/2021_black_sea_incident_according_to_wikipedia_24_jun_2021_1 4ca62be8aa2825b8fa6fc7ccee4a66b9d309956.jpg

[Killaroo]

The RN said no bombs were dropped also. So what do you mean falsehoods? Seems all agree on that. Maybe the Beeb guy could clarify - they are the font of all truth usually, aren’t they? Errr….wait….

This was a pathetic coat trailing exercise from an ex-empire that still thinks it ‘rules the waves’ - but really just waives the rules.

You’d think Boris and his henchmen would have enough to contend with at present - like out of control COVID D and lockdown, a Scottish Parliament that wants to secede, a Northern Irish border war brewing - basically a nation disintegrating. Maybe he’s just looking for distractions?

Therell be no WWIII over this though. Putin is way ahead of the Brits, and is laughing at their pathetic efforts. He’s the only Pol in the Northern Hemisphere with real leadership skills.

[FODPlod]

The RN said no bombs were dropped also. So what do you mean falsehoods? Seems all agree on that. Maybe the Beeb guy could clarify - they are the font of all truth usually, aren’t they? Errr….wait….

This was a pathetic coat trailing exercise from an ex-empire that still thinks it ‘rules the waves’ - but really just waives the rules.

You’d think Boris and his henchmen would have enough to contend with at present - like out of control COVID D and lockdown, a Scottish Parliament that wants to secede, a Northern Irish border war brewing - basically a nation disintegrating. Maybe he’s just looking for distractions?

Therell be no WWIII over this though. Putin is way ahead of the Brits, and is laughing at their pathetic efforts. He’s the only Pol in the Northern Hemisphere with real leadership skills.
I make a point of not feeding trolls on Thursdays.

[a_ross84]

I think we should return the favour and return fire next time they want to transit the English channel

[The Nip]

I make a point of not feeding trolls on Thursdays.
There are plenty around. Many of those who just hate the UK trying to say this was a set up by the PM for publicity purposes. Absolute morons.

[ORAC]

A firm response can be salutary……

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Sidra_incident_(1981)

[Right20deg]

While back, I had the task of training some Russian pilots on a UK Boeing course. Basic handling skills were there to a degree, but their attitudes and behaviours, CRM, not pretty to watch. Then the audacity to ask for my help in getting a job in europe. Unable, unwilling.

[FODPlod]

While back, I had the task of training some Russian pilots on a UK Boeing course. Basic handling skills were there to a degree, but their attitudes and behaviours, CRM, not pretty to watch. Then the audacity to ask for my help in getting a job in europe. Unable, unwilling.
I’ve met a few Russian naval officers and we got on fairly well. They have to act like one-armed paper hangers on board their ships owing to the poor skill sets (and over dependence on vodka) of their more junior ranks but at least their government is paying them again these days.

[old,not bold]

Maybe we should all notice that there were 3 NATO warships involved and sailing in close company, from the USA, The Netherlands, and the UK.

It was a NATO inspired and led event, NOT a British two-fingered deliberate provocation to the Russkies.

[FODPlod]

Maybe we should all notice that there were 3 NATO warships involved and sailing in close company, from the USA, The Netherlands, and the UK.

It was a NATO inspired and led event, NOT a British two-fingered deliberate provocation to the Russkies.
Yes, but the evil Brits are supposed to be Uncle Sam’s proxy, dontcha know, and that’s on top of the FSB’s fascination with our cathedrals.

[Less Hair]

Keep calm and carry on.

[Not_a_boffin]

that’s on top of the FSB’s fascination with our cathedrals.

I thought that particular travel agent was the GRU?

[Beamr]

Putin is way ahead of the Brits, and is laughing at their pathetic efforts. He’s the only Pol Pot in the Northern Hemisphere.
Fixed it for ya, you're welcome.

[Barksdale Boy]

Killaroo
Where exactly is Sunny Bay?

[fitliker]

Border control is firmly on everyone’s agenda . The closing of Syria’s Turkish border on July 10th will be very interesting .
I expect to see some interesting new tactics . The remaining food is being trucked out of that region to create a food insecurity and instability event .
putting pressure on Assad to reopen the other check point s that were being used to supply weapons .
Russia will make a lot of noise about the naval incursions as a suitable distraction to the hunger zones being created in northern Syria on the Turkish border .

[jolihokistix]

So are they headed through the Kerch Strait to cross the Sea of Azov?

[fitliker]

Might have to bring back back double rum rations for that trip .
They might get stuck under the bridge , it was not built very high for a reason .

[A_Van]

See here for chapter and verse on the ‘right of innocent passage’, even through the territorial waters of a Russian-invaded part of the Ukraine:
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
Article 17

Right of innocent passage

Subject to this Convention, ships of all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy the right of innocent passage through the territorial sea.


You are omitting a well-known issue concerning prior notification. As there is nothing said clearly about this in the Convention, many countries in the world interpret in different ways. E.g., some UK Scandinavian neighbours require prior notification for warships:
Uncharted Waters: Non-innocent Passage of Warships in the Territorial Sea (sandiego.edu) (https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1724&context=sdlr) page 641

AFAIK, a good friend of the US and UK, Saidi Arabia, clearly rejects any kind of innocent passage of warships.
I am sure that if the UK authorities "concerned with the issue" would behave as gentlemen and request such a passage, they would get "go ahead" no problem.

Another obvious point is "Ukrainian waters". Of course if anybody considers these waters as Ukrainian, it's their choice, but then get ready for tough attitude.

Imagine that a Russian sub appears near Falklands and "say" that "Argentinian government allows us to sail near Islas Malvinas". What would happen?

[Blake Seven]

Nothing to do with there being a by-election next week in the U.K. and Johnson waving his Willy to show how tough he is. Nothing at all……!
Remember him sending out the RN into the Channel to get tough with French fishermen?
The guys a balloon.

[pasta]

Imagine that a Russian sub appears near Falklands
There was almost certainly at least one Soviet submarine in the area in 1982. Doubt they'd bother now; if they want to look at British sheep, Wales is closer. Plenty of accounts of Russian subs lurking off Faslane though, wasn't one of them involved in a collision with a US submarine back in the day?

Come to think of it, Soviet "trawlers" used to pop up all over the place, I remember one being pointed out during a school trip to Culdrose.

[Video Mixdown]

Nothing to do with there being a by-election next week in the U.K. and Johnson waving his Willy to show how tough he is. Nothing at all……!
Remember him sending out the RN into the Channel to get tough with French fishermen?
The guys a balloon.
And NATO agreed to go along for the ride? Ridiculous.

[highflyer40]

You are omitting a well-known issue concerning prior notification. As there is nothing said clearly about this in the Convention, many countries in the world interpret in different ways. E.g., some UK Scandinavian neighbours require prior notification for warships:
Uncharted Waters: Non-innocent Passage of Warships in the Territorial Sea (sandiego.edu) (https://digital.sandiego.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1724&context=sdlr) page 641

AFAIK, a good friend of the US and UK, Saidi Arabia, clearly rejects any kind of innocent passage of warships.
I am sure that if the UK authorities "concerned with the issue" would behave as gentlemen and request such a passage, they would get "go ahead" no problem.

Another obvious point is "Ukrainian waters". Of course if anybody considers these waters as Ukrainian, it's their choice, but then get ready for tough attitude.

Imagine that a Russian sub appears near Falklands and "say" that "Argentinian government allows us to sail near Islas Malvinas". What would happen?


See that’s where your going wrong. It isn’t about any one country saying this belongs to me. Unless the international community recognise, and it falls within international law then it doesn’t exist.

Russian can scream to the heavens that it is their water, but nobody in the international community recognise it as such. Same with the falklands. Argentina can talk as much as they want but the falklands are internationally recognised as UK territory.

It’s the same with the Chinese and their home built islands in the South China Sea.

[Not_a_boffin]

Nothing to do with there being a by-election next week in the U.K. and Johnson waving his Willy to show how tough he is. Nothing at all……!
Remember him sending out the RN into the Channel to get tough with French fishermen?
The guys a balloon.
You're obviously not keeping up with the news. Labour are doing their level best to lose that seat without any need for the Tories to do anything.

[ExAscoteer2]

And yet Russian warships have routinely transited the English Channel. The hypocrisy here is palpable and it stinks.

[toratoratora]

Nothing to do with there being a by-election next week in the U.K. and Johnson waving his Willy to show how tough he is. Nothing at all……!
Remember him sending out the RN into the Channel to get tough with French fishermen?
The guys a balloon.

Utter rubbish. Do you have any idea how far in advance manoeuvres such as these are planned?

[atakacs]

Utter rubbish. Do you have any idea how far in advance manoeuvres such as these are planned?
Indeed, especially when you pre position members of the press on those vessels 🤔

[langleybaston]

A preposition is a word that tells you where or when something is in relation to something else. Examples of prepositions include words like after, before, on, under, inside and outside.

[NutLoose]

And yet Russian warships have routinely transited the English Channel. The hypocrisy here is palpable and it stinks.


Totally agree, though we too would shadow them and do the odd flyby to photography the vessels, but holding a live fire exercise and threatening to fire on the ship however is a no no, heck if we did that and overshot we might hit France… ;)

Can you imagine if the rest of the world did similar to Russia.

[atakacs]

Sorry about the improper wording but I'm sure you understood what I was meaning. The presence of multiple press correspondents on that ship during this incident proves beyond doubt - if anyone ever had any - that there was nothing innocent about it, neither in the usual nor legal meaning of the word.

It was certainly an act of propaganda as per 2 (d) UNCLS and equally certainly an exercise in collecting information on military defenses 2 (c). But that's beside the point. The UK, probably on the behest of the US, is involved in aggressively "poking" the Bear or the Panda for that matter. I understand the need to maintain a state of tension to insure proper funding of the contractors but it is a dangerous game.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Sorry about the improper wording but I'm sure you understood what I was meaning. The presence of multiple press correspondents on that ship during this incident proves beyond doubt - if anyone ever had any - that there was nothing innocent about it, neither in the usual nor legal meaning of the word.


Orrrr.....

The last time the RN sailed a ship in and out of the area for FoN the Russian information machine spouted a load of propaganda (see previous threads on the subject) and this time the RN anticipated it and decided that was an unacceptable outcome for a FoN exercise, the point of which is partly to ensure that merchant shipping retains the confidence to travel from point a to b.

[ORAC]

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/britain-says-dont-get-carried-away-by-warship-spat-with-russia-2021-06-24/

Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time

[Asturias56]

Big win for everyone!

Uk shows off Navy in far off places, tweaks the tail of the Bear and does it with NATO allies

Proud Russians not asleep react to defend the Motherland and stop the devious British repeating 1854

Anyone would think there are elections soon.... ohhhhhhhhhhhhh

[jolihokistix]

Being accused of bad manners by the Russians, that has got to hurt.

Nasty rust patches showing at the bow and around the anchors, by the way. Shame.

I hope they can give it a lick of paint at their next port of call. Keep everything shipshape! :ok:

[pasta]

Russia warns Britain it will bomb ships next time
Interesting to see how that ends up, they can't even visit a cathedral without killing the wrong person...

[Less Hair]

It's daily business for warships to demonstrate that you don't accept anybody's territorial claims. Having the media on board seems to trigger this show.
Interestingly the US are not openly opposed for doing exactly the same because of the Geneva summit.

[jolihokistix]

Considering their next port of call, (which Boris has just revealed) and the countries and installations on either side of it, "There may be trouble ahead...".

[MacBoero]

Oops!

Positions of Two NATO Ships Were Falsified Near Russian Black Sea Naval Base - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2021/06/21/positions-of-two-nato-ships-were-falsified-near-russian-black-sea-naval-base)

[atakacs]

Big win for everyone!

Uk shows off Navy in far off places, tweaks the tail of the Bear and does it with NATO allies

Proud Russians not asleep react to defend the Motherland and stop the devious British repeating 1854

Anyone would think there are elections soon.... ohhhhhhhhhhhhh
Well I think it is a fair assesment...

In any case jingoist populism for the neo-liberal elite is not my favorite mean of conducting state affairs.

[DuncanDoenitz]

BZ; 100% behind the National and RN intentions, but am I the only one who thought Defender seemed awfully small, and awfully lonely on that big flat sea?

[meleagertoo]

Any ship-identifcation experts out there who can ident the "coast guard vessel/s" type that were involved in the shooting incident?

[Beamr]

Any ship-identifcation experts out there who can ident the "coast guard vessel/s" type that were involved in the shooting incident?
the one seen on BBC video onboard HMS Defender regarding shadowing is project 22160 patrol vessel.

this report: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

this ship:
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1835x1070/screenshot_20210625_171646_chrome_bdf4c04ffcfdcce951f07e126b 1ea9b6be03d937.jpg
heres a pic of said vessel type for reference:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x800/russias_project_22160_patrol_vessel_in_air_defense_training_ with_s_400_b5c501c0e504c1c8106aefa8178e3dcf993dd12e.jpg

[FODPlod]

Looks like I'm not the only one having brain trouble this morning - Main Building aussi.

Can somebody tell me where the major British International Trade Route in the Black Sea that the Type 45 action was ostensibly maintaining/ defending . . . . or lets be more specific, the Trade Route to a Southern Ukranian port that was being protected ? Where was the merchantman that was being protected ?

What half-wit in MB thought doing an Italian Cruise liner captain emulation ("Hey girls, look, no hands") off the Crimean coast was going to be of any long-term benefit for the UK...

I'm sure I've heard something like this before.

Now I remember. It was Neville Chamberlain on Germany's annexation of the Sudetenland in a radio broadcast on 7 September 1938:
"How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing."
I guess the principle of freedom of navigation just doesn't mean anything to some people.

[NutLoose]

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2282149-gps-cyberattack-falsely-placed-uk-warship-near-russian-naval-base/

GPS cyberattack falsely placed UK warship near Russian naval base
Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2282149-gps-cyberattack-falsely-placed-uk-warship-near-russian-naval-base/#ixzz6yonYExAp

[atakacs]

I guess the principle of freedom of navigation just doesn't mean anything to some people.

in this specific case it had obviously nothing to do with freedom of navigation and everyone with half a brain fully understands it. In absolute terms I fuly accept that the UK has to do the US bidding and poke the bear. But please stop the complete nonsense about freedom of navigation.

[FODPlod]

…I fuly accept that the UK has to do the US bidding and poke the bear. But please stop the complete nonsense about freedom of navigation...
…particularly when your doing it, apparently, to curry favour with the "Hold-my-stick" brigade the other side of the pond….

Sock puppets, bots of ill-intent or just plain trolls?

Whichever applies, I make a point of not feeding any of them on Fridays.

[Video Mixdown]

Sock puppets, bots of ill-intent or just plain trolls?

Whichever applies, I make a point of not feeding any of them on Fridays.
You have to laugh though. One is spouting complete gibberish and the other is claiming expertise in naval strategy from Switzerland.

[Killaroo]

You brave lads of the RN and RAF are really just unwitting tools in the destruction of your own nation and all its great values and traditions
​​​​​​.Russia is no longer Commie - the Cold War is over. A new type of war has begun, and as it happens, Russia has taken on the mantle of preserving white western Christian civilization. What’s supposed to be YOUR JOB.
The West has become a disgusting morass of neo Marxist, globohomo anti white, anti Christian hysteria.
Putin is hated because of his refusal to take a knee to such debauchery. I’m fully behind him.
Meanwhile Britain and the US suck up to murderers and terrorists like MBS and SA.
It’s clear as day that all the hate and provocation is coming from your direction alone.
oh, and let’s not forget, the MIC needs a boogeyman to keep the shekels rolling in.
Your wages depend on it!

[NutLoose]

I agree one hundred percent with what you just said Roo, right up to the word are…

[FODPlod]

…Meanwhile Britain and the US suck up to murderers and terrorists like MBS and SA…
I wondered how long it would be. We could have a good clear-out with all of you coming out of the woodwork.

Now, where’s Sunny Bay again? I must have missed your answer the first time.

[Less Hair]

Russia's show is aimed at their domestic public. No need to get excited.

[ExAscoteer2]

Said stuff

I've seen some utter drivel posted here but that wins first prize!

[Less Hair]

He sounds a bit like the vodka tasting has begun?

[FODPlod]

…If that's what you want, that's what will happen.
Harry Enfield walt, but funnier.

[Video Mixdown]

Russia's show is aimed at their domestic public. No need to get excited.
It's nothing new. They did much the same thing in 2018 when HMS Duncan was on a similar patrol. Plenty of clips on You tube.

[Less Hair]

And now they have Covid peaking at home.

[pasta]

It's nothing new. They did much the same thing in 2018 when HMS Duncan was on a similar patrol. Plenty of clips on You tube.
And a full-on BBC documentary series. The RN have been taking journalists and TV crews on deployments for as long as I can remember, so that's not new either.

The game play would go
Just make sure you don't shoot down the wrong aircraft (again).

[atakacs]

You have to laugh though. One is spouting complete gibberish and the other is claiming expertise in naval strategy from Switzerland.

Well there is the letter of the law for the naval strategists

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/612x537/screenshot_1612_3bf0ac0fe4f0e7dd0fc667cf9bc489d47b0e3398.png
Innocent passage

I think even the most jingoist of our esteemed contributors will agree that this event was a far cry from this definition. But does anyone seriously think to the contrary ?

[Not_a_boffin]

Well there is the letter of the law for the naval strategists

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/612x537/screenshot_1612_3bf0ac0fe4f0e7dd0fc667cf9bc489d47b0e3398.png
Innocent passage

I think even the most jingoist of our esteemed contributors will agree that this event was a far cry from this definition. But does anyone seriously think to the contrary ?

Sod off Sergei. Nothing in 19.2 was applicable. You might want to examine 25.3.

Or better still, keep whispering "Rodina stronk" to yourself and stroke that poster of Vlad by your desk. It'll be over soon.

[Killaroo]

Oops!

Positions of Two NATO Ships Were Falsified Near Russian Black Sea Naval Base - USNI News (https://news.usni.org/2021/06/21/positions-of-two-nato-ships-were-falsified-near-russian-black-sea-naval-base)

Your link points to a 'United States Naval Institute' news article which denies that the whole incident happened at all, claiming the NATO ships never left port in Odessa, and that ASI data showing the fleet approaching to 2NM from the entrance of the Russian Fleets home port was falsified. I'll bet the CIA produced the necessary evidence.
Yet the BBC website (international purveyors of truth in the media) states: "A BBC correspondent on the warship said it was harassed by Russia's military. Aircraft could be heard overhead as BBC defence correspondent Jonathan Beale filed a report from the deck of HMS Defender in the Black Sea" adding " HMS Defender was sailing from Odessa in southern Ukraine to Georgia. To get there, it passed south of the Crimea peninsula....". So they did sail, and the ASI data was correct, justifying the Russian response - and disproving the 'Innocent Passage' claims. And showing the USNI is full of it......

As to my own comments here - I don't really feel the need to justify my position. But I'll add a few points for info.
First of all - I followed the link to this thread from JetBlast and only later discovered the thread is in fact hosted on the Military Forum - a forum I have zero interest in usually as I'm not a military man and don't like echo chambers. Truth be told I don't frequent PPRuNe itself much these days, ever since the new forum software ruined it (and I hung up my wings anyway).

Next - I am a British citizen. Furthermore members of my family died for Britain - God help them. My Great Uncle was an RN seaman on HMS Aboukir when it was sunk in 1914. Look it up. In the English Channel no less....defending right of passage I suppose. He still lies at the bottom there, with 1,500 of his brothers in arms.

What galls me is that while the modern RN are off coat trailing in places they have no business to be, they are also back in the Channel escorting the people traffickers dinghy's full of economic migrants and landing them on the shores of the UK (in the midst of a pandemic) where they proceed to fan out and join their Western Christian hating brethren, and cheer on the jihadists who blow up your children. RN escorted into the UK, right over the graves of those men of 1914.
But you don't see any of this as contradictory.
I see one of those 'migrants' launched a knife attack on his German hosts just yesterday - killing three innocents on the spot and wounding several more, yet it's hardly in the news today. No mention of it on the Sky breakfast news I watched this morning.

The MSM protect their Leftist neo Marxist LGBTQ Jihadist BLM ANTIFA agenda, to the extreme detriment of the native people and culture of your nation. This is what my Great Uncle and his shipmates gave their lives for. What a shame.

You don't hear much of these kind of attacks and general societal breakdown in Russia. Putin has refused to play along with this New World Order and is strengthening the last bastion of defense of Western Christendom. More power to him.

I see the French military (unlike you pussies) have the balls to recognise this and speak out about what they see going on in their nation. They have warned Macron that a revolution is brewing in France over this crap. They were denounced by the French Government and told to shut up - military men are not allowed such opinions. Which begs the question - what are you Brits doing expressing opinions in public about international relations? Isn't there some rule about that in HM Forces?
Anyway, you have your orders. Keep poking at those nasty Russians.

[FODPlod]

Your link points to a 'United States Naval Institute' news article which denies that the whole incident happened at all, claiming the NATO ships never left port in Odessa, and that ASI data showing the fleet approaching to 2NM from the entrance of the Russian Fleets home port was falsified. I'll bet the CIA produced the necessary evidence.
Yet the BBC website (international purveyors of truth in the media) states: "A BBC correspondent on the warship said it was harassed by Russia's military. Aircraft could be heard overhead as BBC defence correspondent Jonathan Beale filed a report from the deck of HMS Defender in the Black Sea" adding " HMS Defender was sailing from Odessa in southern Ukraine to Georgia. To get there, it passed south of the Crimea peninsula....". So they did sail, and the ASI data was correct, justifying the Russian response - and disproving the 'Innocent Passage' claims. And showing the USNI is full of it.......

Why are you conflating two entirely separate ‘incidents’?
a. The falsification of AIS tracks of HNLMS EVERTSEN and HMS DEFENDER from Odessa to Sevastopol on Fri 18/Sat 19 Jun despite the easily verified fact that they were berthed alongside in Odessa for the weekend.

b. The innocent passage of HMS DEFENDER off the south coast of Ukraine’s Russian-occupied Crimea on Wed 23 June while en route from Odessa to Georgia.

[Frostchamber]

One of the best things about threads like this is playing "spot the sock puppet", but also (given spotting them is often all too easy) seeing the tactics they use - including, but not limited to, using the internet to create a "credible" backstory and then inviting readers to check the internet to prove its veracity. Neat.

I guess despite the sizeable superannuated element on here, the potential that even some some serving folk might lurk and read as well as post makes it an especially tempting target. Whenever I see posts that are especially corrosive in relation to UK policy, and which clearly seek to chip away at how people think about it, I stroke the imaginary beard and think hmmm....

None of which is to say that the UK approach doesn't often warrant perfectly valid criticism from the many genuine folk on here. That just adds to the interest of the "spot the sock puppet" game...

[Less Hair]

True it is entertaining. However a bit shocking how this sort of warfare crept into everyday life. I like all those biographic and location details the most. And then they give it all away.:}

[Arthur1815]

Missing your point. So how was it prejudicial?

[Less Hair]

First its like "I am a westener like you" and then it moves on to what the central committee's, or whatever they listen to, menu du jour.

[Video Mixdown]

And a full-on BBC documentary series. The RN have been taking journalists and TV crews on deployments for as long as I can remember, so that's not new either.
Who can forget 'Sailor'. "We are sailing, we are sailing.............."

[Killaroo]

Why are you conflating two entirely separate ‘incidents’?
Because the poster of the USNI link intended exactly that.


None of which is to say that the UK approach doesn't often warrant perfectly valid criticism from the many genuine folk on here. That just adds to the interest of the "spot the sock puppet" game...
If ya can't get the ball get the man, eh?
Got nothing to say but rubbish.

First its like "I am a westener like you" and then it moves on to what the central committee's, or whatever they listen to, menu du jour.

....and again.

You lot seem to think all Westerners should join lockstep and salute whatever the lying MSM runs up the flagpole. Here's the News - the West is full of free thinking individuals who don't buy this patent spin and propaganda.
Leave Russia and Putin alone. Go look after your own back yard.
Oh - and free Julian Assange!

[Not_a_boffin]

His pericombobulations are quite spectacular. We should all be frasmotic and even compunctuous to have caused them.

[Navaleye]

His pericombobulations are quite spectacular. We should all be frasmotic and even compunctuous to have caused them.

Couldn't of put it better myself.

I heard that the RN is open to offers on Prince of Wales btw

[Not_a_boffin]

Couldn't of put it better myself.

I heard that the RN is open to offers on Prince of Wales btw
Not the sort of offers that involve soiling Wellington's? That would be most inadvisable.

[ORAC]

Sir Humphrey…

https://tinyurl.com/yu4s9tcy

Defending the Truth - The Royal Navy & Russia

[Deltasierra010]

Whoever faked the track of the Defender group was hopelessly unbelievable, 3 foreign warships approaching within 2 miles of a major base, they would have been warned off at 10 miles real shots across the bow any closer. That aside, tactically the Black Sea is not a place to be if hostilities do start where you are out gunned and out maneuvered, don’t poke the Russian bear.

[langleybaston]

The Russian Bear, mangy and short of fuels, spares and expertise, has been poking away at UK airspace for many years.

Rattle its cage in a calculated way, and see if the bear is emasculated.

Wind and Piss, like the barber's cat, for most part.

[Krystal n chips]

" It would be inappropriate to comment "....well quite, although you get the impression somebody will be doing quite a lot of commenting very soon.

Very revealing.

Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bus stop - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57624942)

[Easy Street]

I'd normally choose cock-up over conspiracy, but the release of the Defender route plan and associated considerations does seem remarkably well timed and helpful to the intended narrative... almost like someone wants to keep the story and the legal position in the news. If so it's doubly clever as it will get attention from those at home and abroad who thrive on stories of UK cock-ups, who will be drawn into reading the explanation of the Russian encounter and will no doubt be frustrated at the lack of mention of "poking the bear". The other reported contents seem fairly anodyne; I guess the material the BBC chose to withhold might give more of a clue as to whether this was an "accident". Also, who uses printed material these days, anyway?!

[Killaroo]

" It would be inappropriate to comment "....well quite, although you get the impression somebody will be doing quite a lot of commenting very soon.

Very revealing.

Classified Ministry of Defence documents found at bus stop - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57624942)

And there it is, in black and white. A coat trailing exercise.
Maybe I should say Petty Coat. (pun intended).

Free Julian Assange!

[NutLoose]

You could have some serious fun with the press, print a load of bollox about future plans, ship / aircraft specs, fitting catapults to the carriers blah blah blah, stamp it up to look official then leave it at a bus stop and wait for the fun to commence.

It does make you wonder if the finder has not broken some laws in handing classified documents to the press, perhaps they should make an example to deter it happening in the future.

[SASless]

Or....perhaps some very incompetent Boob stayed too long at the Pub....and lost the documents and they are for real....as has happened in the. past.

Giving the documents to the BBC does make one wonder what people are thinking when they do that.....but holding the. media to account is the wrong thing to even consider as to a Lost and Found scenario.

If the BBC immediately contacted appropriate Government Officials and ran a story that withheld genuinely sensitive information and only published that which any reasonable person would think about....what harm was done other than to the MOD's reputation?

Now if the BBC had orchestrated the compromise of the material ahead of time....that is a completely different kettle of fish.

The person who "lost" the material had best reported that loss immediately and clearly stated the circumstance under which the material came not to be in his care, custody, and control.

Why would that kind of material be outside of secure spaces to begin with?

You just do not take Classified Material to your Club, Pub, or Parlor...or does the UK MOD do things differently than those places I worked at that required handling of classified or sensitive materials and information?

[pasta]

Media correspondents were already on board Defender.
Yeah - that only really works if you're not pretending to be someone else, so you can see how it wouldn't appeal to some regimes.

[Asturias56]

"It does make you wonder if the finder has not broken some laws in handing classified documents to the press, perhaps they should make an example to deter it happening in the future."

Thus ensuring that no-one ever picks up anything again................. if he/she had turned it into the MoD do you think we'd ever have heard about it? That they employ incompetents who lose important documents on public transport?


"You just do not take Classified Material to your Club, Pub, or Parlor.."

Since it was found at a bus stop we have to assume they planned to read it the document on their trip or that's what they had been doing when they got off the bus.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/283x433/careless_talk35_19a41eae7e089eb7b84eced47b331f7fe8c90389.jpg

[Bob Viking]

Who here believes the story that a bunch of UK Secret stuff (PowerPoint slides - really?!) was printed off in a fashion so haphazard as to allow them to leave a controlled facility and be left behind a bus stop?

Who then believes that a passerby happened to be snooping behind a bus stop and stumbled upon said documents?

Who then will also believe that this conscientious member of the public's first thought, after obviously recognising that these were highly classified and very topical scraps of paper, was to contact the BBC?

I mean, this whole thing is so ludicrous maybe it is true but seriously? It reads more like the script of an episode of Eastenders than a real life event.

BV

[DrCuffe]

Who here believes the story that a bunch of UK Secret stuff (PowerPoint slides - really?!) was printed off in a fashion so haphazard as to allow them to leave a controlled facility and be left behind a bus stop?

Who then believes that a passerby happened to be snooping behind a bus stop and stumbled upon said documents?

Who then will also believe that this conscientious member of the public's first thought, after obviously recognising that these were highly classified and very topical scraps of paper, was to contact the BBC?

I mean, this whole thing is so ludicrous maybe it is true but seriously? It reads more like the script of an episode of Eastenders than a real life event.

BV
Shush. Anyway saturday night is pub night, no matter what arm of the service you're in!

[Timelord]

I think Alan West, later First Sea Lord and Peer of the Realm once “accidentally “ dropped some secret papers on a path and, guess what, the next person along was a journalist. Didn’t do his career any harm. And then there was the VSO (or was it his PSO?) that left a laptop containing the entire Gulf War 1 plan to be stolen from a car boot whilst he browsed in a showroom. It seems that different rules apply at that end of the food chain.

[RAFEngO74to09]

[QUOTE= And then there was the VSO (or was it his PSO?) that left a laptop containing the entire Gulf War 1 plan to be stolen from a car boot whilst he browsed in a showroom. It seems that different rules apply at that end of the food chain.[/QUOTE]

It was the wg cdr PSO to the Op GRANBY Joint Commander who decided to visit what used to be a dodgy "car supermarket" on the A40 Westway.

His actions caused huge embarrassment to those in the AHQ Riyadh who were subsequently mostly left out of the loop on the replacement plan until the last minute.

.https://www.upi.com/Archives/1991/06/28/RAF-officer-guilty-in-war-plans-loss/6486678081600/

[Asturias56]

IIRC the thief returned the computer (anonymously) with a rant about "Senior idiots putting men's lives at risk..."

[falcon900]

Shades of Operation Mincemeat about this. Too cute by far, and behind the inevitable bluster about leaks, all rather self serving.

[Just a spotter]

GPS cyberattack falsely placed UK warship near Russian naval base
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2282149-gps-cyberattack-falsely-placed-uk-warship-near-russian-naval-base/

Wasn't that the premise of the James Bond movie "Tomorrow Never Dies", hacking GPS signals to guide a Navy vessel off course and into someone elses territoral waters.

JAS

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

Not the first time that Bigot documents have been left lying around - though at least last time it was in the back of a taxi ... who takes the bus? Are salaries really that bad?

Perhaps we should now cast a watchful eye over the Times crossword . . .

[sandiego89]

........Anyway, surely, nowadays, its all done in nominated, secure rooms on the Secret terminals/An EBWB (Electronic Big White Board) sans print outs ?.....



You would think so, but if these "senior leaders" are like the "senior leaders" in my organization, slides and handouts of power point briefs are still very much in use. Otherwise senior leaders would actually have to know how to log on to system, get into the right room, open the right file....surprisingly few even know how to file a travel claim or log onto system x, they have staff for that...."hey, can you print out 10 copies of that brief? No make it 15 in case a few more staffers show up......"

[Killaroo]

Who here believes the story that a bunch of UK Secret stuff (PowerPoint slides - really?!) was printed off in a fashion so haphazard as to allow them to leave a controlled facility and be left behind a bus stop?

Who then believes that a passerby happened to be snooping behind a bus stop and stumbled upon said documents?

Who then will also believe that this conscientious member of the public's first thought, after obviously recognising that these were highly classified and very topical scraps of paper, was to contact the BBC?

I mean, this whole thing is so ludicrous maybe it is true but seriously? It reads more like the script of an episode of Eastenders than a real life event.

BV

The MoD aren’t denying the veracity of the documents at all. They’ve all but admitted they’re for real. Maybe the spook was snogging his mistress behind the bus stop and dropped his briefs.
You should stop digging.

[ORAC]

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2021/06/28/sea-breeze-21-begins-in-the-black-sea-after-russia-threatens-to-fire-on-intruding-warships/

Sea Breeze 21 begins in the Black Sea after Russia threatens to fire on ‘intruding’ warships

Just days after Russia threatened to fire on “intruding” warships near the Crimean Peninsula in the Black Sea, the annual Sea Breeze exercise, which U.S. 6th Fleet is co-hosting with the Ukrainian Navy, kicked off Monday with the largest number ever of participating countries.

Sea Breeze 21, which continues through July 10 in the Black Sea region, focuses on amphibious warfare, land maneuver warfare, diving operations, maritime interdiction operations, air defense, special operations integration, anti-submarine warfare and search and rescue operations, according to a 6th Fleet news release.

Thirty-two countries from six continents are providing 5,000 troops, 32 ships, 40 aircraft, and 18 special operations and dive teams to the exercise.

“The United States is proud to partner with Ukraine in co-hosting the multinational maritime exercise Sea Breeze, which will help enhance interoperability and capabilities among participating nations,” said Chargé d’Affaires Kristina Kvien, U.S. Embassy in Ukraine. “We are committed to maintaining the safety and security of the Black Sea.”

The exercise gets underway just five days after Russia announced that one of its warships fired warning shots (https://www.militarytimes.com/news/2021/06/23/russia-says-warning-shots-deter-uk-warship-london-denies-it/)and a warplane dropped bombs in the path of British destroyer Defender to drive it away from waters near the Crimean city of Sevastopol, the main Russian naval base in Crimea. Britain denied that account, insisted there were no warning shots or bombs dropped near its ship and that it was sailing in Ukrainian waters.…..

The incident marked the first time since the Cold War that Moscow claimed tp have used live ammunition to deter a NATO warship, underlining the rising threat of military collisions amid Russia-West tensions.

Exercise Sea Breeze, which began in 1997, brings most Black Sea nations and NATO allies and partners together to train and operate in the pursuit of building increased capability.

The nations taking part include: Albania, Australia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, France, Georgia, Greece, Israel, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Morocco, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Senegal, Spain, South Korea, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and the United States.

[Asturias56]

"The nations taking part include: Albania, Australia, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Denmark, Egypt, Estonia, France, Georgia, Greece, Israel, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Morocco, Norway, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Senegal, Spain, South Korea, Sweden, Tunisia, Turkey, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, the United Kingdom and the United States."

looks like the cast list for the Korean War

[ORAC]

looks like the cast list for the Korean War
Sorry I missed that - did you Korean or Crimean?

[pasta]

If the bear breaks off the chain, then it will not seem sour... .
Sounds like one of those coded messages from 'Allo 'Allo. Have the Gestapo found the secret hiding place of The Fallen Madonna with the Big Boobies?

[Asturias56]

"If the bear breaks off the chain, then it will not seem sour... ."

I'm sure it sounds better in the original Russian

[Imagegear]

Around these parts if a bear gets to be a nuisance, it gets ended

Coded in the vernacular

[fitliker]

Bears are just like big dumb dogs , i have met lots of bears on walks and the only bears that scared me were the Polar bears in Resolute and Grizzly bears in Toba inlet as they will hunt you and they look at you like their next meal . Black bears get annoyed if you are eating their berries . Black bears will get used to you and will ignore you after a while . Bears as a whole are non confrontational but will defend their territory and berry bushes .

[FODPlod]

If the bear breaks off the chain, then it will not seem sour... .
Do you all share the same building (and each other’s user names) or are you distributed around the Rodina and further afield?

[Navaleye]

The Russians could have sunk Defender, but they wouldn't have many Fencers or pilots left afterwards

[JFKvsNixon]

Not the first time that Bigot documents have been left lying around - though at least last time it was in the back of a taxi ... who takes the bus? Are salaries really that bad?

Perhaps we should now cast a watchful eye over the Times crossword . . .

It probably not a coincidence that the documents were "left" at bus stop. Bus stops are a good place to be able to hang around without looking suspicious, so it may be that even though the documents were left, it may not have been through carelessness.

[radeng]

One wonders if we do not have a have a parallel to the 1930s, when the Germans and Japanese were doing aggression by .'hidden' stealth. - very much a parallel to what the Russians and ChiComms are doing now. I'm glad I am unlikely to still be alive when Europe and the US wakeup to the reality of what they have to face - without the resources (other than maybe nuclear) to do it.

[pilot9250]

If were going to play a speculative game of consequences, or international Morning Crescent, then standby for a stop at the end of the line called Europe Glass Car Park. And you'd be surprised, nowadays, from a standing start, how quickly you could get there, particularly when your doing it, apparently, to curry favour with the "Hold-my-stick" brigade the other side of the pond. How do we know that one of the razz-mattaz policy strategems may be to attempt to slew first strike towards Europe. The preservation of Mildenhall and new function for Fairford might be an indication of that.

One AH had similar aspirations . . .and he only had problems with his elbows . . . . and look where that got him, even with a substantial portion of the resident population being ethnically and attitudinally sympathetic to his cause. That support either from the population or the topography doesn't go much further East. Its a huge country. A lot of the people in the East are in effect self-governing.

The only hope is that the effects of the melting permo-frost extend to the east Polish border and that massing military formations, including the rear echelon HQs (Them first if I had my way), disappear lock stock and kalishnikov, down a giant swallow hole.

With the inter mingling of populations through travel, think the railway link from China etc , differences in values, if ever they existed between the bog standard members of the population, will be smoothed-out long-term, leaving the establishments with no raison-d'etre, especially in this line of business. Hurrah !

Your English is sufficiently stilted and contains enough subtle grammar and spelling errors to lead me to suppose that you are not what you seem.

Comrade.

[Easy Street]

Some friendly advice to those responsible for the troll farms. The audience here is harder to deceive than those on typical below-the-line comments or Facebook threads. You'll either have to up your game or go back to stirring up trouble among credulous Mail and Express readers...

[Ninthace]

Some friendly advice to those responsible for the troll farms. The audience here is harder to deceive than those on typical below-the-line comments or Facebook threads. You'll either have to up your game or go back to stirring up trouble among credulous Mail and Express readers...
The subtle changes in style give the impression that perhaps different hands write under the same name. Do you think they work shifts?

[Null Orifice]

Or copy and paste from different sources?

[etudiant]

I prefer to follow the maxim 'Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity'.
It is implausible to me that Russia, scraping for pennies as oil prices erode, has the money to support trolls on PPRN.

[Easy Street]

I prefer to follow the maxim 'Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity'.
It is implausible to me that Russia, scraping for pennies as oil prices erode, has the money to support trolls on PPRN.

On the contrary. Trolling is cheap, and funded as much by Putin's oligarch backers (who are certainly not short of cash) as by the state. See here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) for example. And PPRuNe is a high-payoff target: it's known that Western journos read it for leads and occasionally even lift stories from it, so why not try mixing in some "alternative" perspectives? Even better if they can trick a credulous journo into thinking that western military personnel hold pro-Russian views; that would be quite the scoop. But the standard of trolling is not quite good enough for that. It's taken the campaigns for Brexit and recent UK and US general elections to do it, but it seems that after almost 20 years of talking about it, the West is finally up to speed on info ops.

[SASless]

PPRuNe is a high-payoff target: it's known that Western journos read it for leads and occasionally even lift stories from it.....

No wonder there is such lack of accuracy in the modern Media.

"High Payoff Target".....oh...please do explain that concept to us will you?

It is a RUMOUR NETWORK....clearly stated by. its very. name!

But....I suppose if a so-called Journo used something he saw here as the basis for a news story....they could use that very handy....."A well placed Anonymous Source...." line of BS to try to add some credibility to the story.

[Easy Street]

You answered your own question there...

[pilot9250]

I prefer to follow the maxim 'Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity'.
It is implausible to me that Russia, scraping for pennies as oil prices erode, has the money to support trolls on PPRN.

It costs nothing to post here.

I wrote a more detailed explanation but decided not to post it.

There is no question in my mind, from analysing the use of English, that the poster I replied to is a foreign troll masquerading as something else.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

No wonder there is such lack of accuracy in the modern Media.

"High Payoff Target".....oh...please do explain that concept to us will you?

It is a RUMOUR NETWORK....clearly stated by. its very. name!

But....I suppose if a so-called Journo used something he saw here as the basis for a news story....they could use that very handy....."A well placed Anonymous Source...." line of BS to try to add some credibility to the story.


Troll farm or no troll farm, journalists do definitely read pprune and have cited either anonymous sources or vague references to an internet source populated by professional pilots, definitely trying to make it more credible than it is!

[Asturias56]

That I think is the most likely answer as to why a new bunch of posters would post clear propaganda on one thread. The regular posters of a more pro Russian line such as Vann have been here for years, post on many threads and have some useful points to make, The newbies are very obliviously different

[pasta]

On the contrary. Trolling is cheap, and funded as much by Putin's oligarch backers (who are certainly not short of cash) as by the state. See here (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency) for example. And PPRuNe is a high-payoff target: it's known that Western journos read it for leads and occasionally even lift stories from it, so why not try mixing in some "alternative" perspectives? Even better if they can trick a credulous journo into thinking that western military personnel hold pro-Russian views; that would be quite the scoop. But the standard of trolling is not quite good enough for that. It's taken the campaigns for Brexit and recent UK and US general elections to do it, but it seems that after almost 20 years of talking about it, the West is finally up to speed on info ops.
If you were going to pay people to post propaganda here, wouldn't you at least look for candidates with level 6 English?

[Senior Pilot]

And there was me thinking that contributors to Mil Forum were better than the denizens of Jet Blast.

Thread closed 🤔