Further consideration of Irish Air Defence

[Finningley Boy]

The ‘gaping gap’ in Ireland’s airspace defence (irishtimes.com) (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-gaping-gap-in-ireland-s-airspace-defence-1.4597124)

Further concerns about the Irish Air Corps' ability to defend its own airspace.

FB

[Asturias56]

Option 2 20 million euro a year extra for 50 FA-50's looks good - if you can afford the CAPEX

or they could ask Biden for a couple of F-16 squadrons at family rates

[Martin the Martian]

Opton 2 is for EIGHT FA-50s, not 50.

[ORAC]

Depends if they want to hold a pair on QRA.

Two state means two to rotate plus a couple of spares for deep maintenance etc. If you want another couple for 1v1 training that means a minimum of 8. For attrition etc it would be better to aim at 12.

Surprised to see the FA-50, maybe just as an option against the Italian M346 which they might get help from through the EU.

40:Gripen is a pipe dream. Not only in getting the money to buy them but in finding the pilots to fly them and the ground crew to support them. I would have thought 8-12 Gripen a more realistic option alongside the other two above.

I am sure a Uncle Sam would look fondly on supplying some older F-16s at a reasonable price - but the spares and support costs might make the politicians eyes water when the bills start to roll in.

[Asturias56]

Thanks Martin for the correctionLast year, former Air Corps chief Ralph James (https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_person=Ralph+James) estimated Ireland may need 16 fighter jets, with each serviced by three crews, to provide a true 24/7 fast response capability to threats. “But aircraft systems are no good without the supporting systems. So you have the radar system, the reporting systems and intelligence systems to evaluate threats,” he said. “Then also backing up the airplane you have things like air traffic control, fire crews and so on.”

and of course there is always some who miss the whole point....
"In a submission to the commission, MEP Clare Daly (https://www.irishtimes.com/topics/topics-7.1213540?article=true&tag_person=Clare+Daly) urged that that any additional funding for defence should be earmarked to improve pay and conditions over any plans to invest in new equipment"

[air pig]

Ireland doesn't even have night fixed wing aero-medical capability.

[Una Due Tfc]

Waste of money.

[MPN11]

Waste of money.
Yes, let UK do it for you. 👎

[AnglianAV8R]

It would take a lot more than a few fighters fighters, unless the attackers were considerate enough to use transponders.

[NWSRG]

Joint Squadron? Could RoI part-fund a QRA squadron, and provide people as well? I'm sure some of the IAC guys could qualify as fast-jet pilots? Use the infrastructure already in place for Typhoon, but get a sensible contribution from Dublin, and make it bilateral. (And as an NI resident, I reckon ex-RAF Aldergrove would be an ideal location!!)

[meleagertoo]

What, exactly, is the threat to Irish airspace? The only possible one is Russia, and if things got to the stage of Russia attacking Ireland (!!!) what use would a couple of light Korean baby-jets on QRA be?

Where's their C & C?
Where's their surveillance radar and fighter director system?

Looks to me like a silly solution in desperate search of a problem - or are they afraid of surprise incursions by uninvited British sausages?

Much more likely it's just Empire Building.

[ORAC]

What, exactly, is the threat to Irish airspace? The only possible one is Russia


You obviously haven’t read the post and links above.

The primary concern is flight safety with non-transponding Russian bombers transiting their airspace and with no primary radars.*

That could be solved with the installation of primary capable radars and an agreement with NATO on the provision of early warning. Hence the quote of 3 radar systems at about €20M each.

The secondary concern is from hijacked aircraft as in 9/11 where they might wish to escort and/or intervene on any such aircraft within Irish airspace - which is where fighters come into the equation.

There is no mention of a war fighting capability.

(* Accepting it’s over 25 years ago, as an AD controller running Northern QRA intercepts from Buchan, I am aware of at least 2 MISREPs from QRA fighters following Bears west of Ireland reporting them as being co-alt or no more than 500ft below transatlantic traffic and passing within a few hundred yards of them without any obvious avoidance action.)

[Una Due Tfc]

Yes, let UK do it for you. 👎

It's them that the Russians are trying to antagonise anyway. Let them.

[ORAC]

It's them that the Russians are trying to antagonise anyway. Let them.
So when a 777 or A350 goes down after a midair with a non-squawker they can explain its all the fault of the British?

Love to see how that would work out in the courts….

[Una Due Tfc]

So when a 777 or A350 goes down after a midair with a non-squawker they can explain its all the fault of the British?

Love to see how that would work out in the courts….

The Russians are doing exactly the same thing out there as the US, UK and France, operating Due Regard and being responsible for their own separation. Operating 500 feet above or below civilian traffic is in accordance with Due Regard. And as an ATCO in the airspace in question, I can assure you it is not the Russians who cause me the most hassle out there. They stay quiet, avoid everyone and mind their own business. There are other State forces that either don’t know the difference between Due Regard, a flighplan and a clearance or wilfully drift from one to another when it suits.

[West Coast]

Sorry, ATCO considerations aren’t the final word on whether a nation needs ADF.

[air pig]

That could be solved with the installation of primary capable radars and an agreement with NATO on the provision of early warning. Hence the quote of 3 radar systems at about €20M each.

Would an agreement with NATO breech Irish neutrality?

[air pig]

The Russians are doing exactly the same thing out there as the US, UK and France, operating Due Regard and being responsible for their own separation. Operating 500 feet above or below civilian traffic is in accordance with Due Regard. And as an ATCO in the airspace in question, I can assure you it is not the Russians who cause me the most hassle out there. They stay quiet, avoid everyone and mind their own business. There are other State forces that either don’t know the difference between Due Regard, a flighplan and a clearance or wilfully drift from one to another when it suits.

And what about the few thousands of yards of trailing aerial from TU142s?

[ORAC]

Air_pig,

No, it is already a member of the NATO Partnership for Peace programme.

And of course, already has the above mentioned agreement with the UK about penetrating Irish airspace, which, by its very nature, implies that Ireland would have to be provided with early warning of any threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/defence-forces-should-increase-co-operation-with-nato-commission-told-1.4580389

Cooperation and coordination with neighbouring countries does not require joining the military alliance.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2020-10-08/1/

[Asturias56]

"Sorry, ATCO considerations aren’t the final word on whether a nation needs ADF."

That is the question - does Ireland NEED a modern air defence force? TBH the realistic air threats are negligible

[Una Due Tfc]

Sorry, ATCO considerations aren’t the final word on whether a nation needs ADF.

No arguments from me there. My point was in response to the risk of them colliding with civilian traffic as a result of implied illegal activity by operating + or - 500ft of civilian traffic, which isn't breaking any rules. I've seen a few cases of military traffic busting separation minima with civilian traffic, none involved the Russians.

The reality is a QRA force has less than 10% public support in Ireland because of the cost, it would be hugely detrimental to whichever government brought it in. The Irish defense forces are losing personnel in droves because the Ts & Cs are terrible. There's at least 2 naval vessels tied up because there aren't enough crews to operate them, and there's often no fixed wing medical/SAR availability because either there aren't enough flight crews or military controllers to be on call. These issues need to be fixed first.

Then there's other issues within those proposals put forward in the white paper, much of this proposed force's operations would be over the stormy NAT, in winter. Is putting them out there in a single engine Grippen or second hand F16 too risky, or should we really be looking at more expensive twin engine platforms?

I have no doubt Uncle Sam would give us very competitive pricing and support on F15/16/18 platforms, but the opposition from Joe Public to any cost of any Fighter from any nation is the elephant in the room.

[Training Risky]

No arguments from me there. My point was in response to the risk of them colliding with civilian traffic as a result of implied illegal activity by operating + or - 500ft of civilian traffic, which isn't breaking any rules. I've seen a few cases of military traffic busting separation minima with civilian traffic, none involved the Russians.

The reality is a QRA force has less than 10% public support in Ireland because of the cost, it would be hugely detrimental to whichever government brought it in. The Irish defense forces are losing personnel in droves because the Ts & Cs are terrible. There's at least 2 naval vessels tied up because there aren't enough crews to operate them, and there's often no fixed wing medical/SAR availability because either there aren't enough flight crews or military controllers to be on call. These issues need to be fixed first.

Then there's other issues within those proposals put forward in the white paper, much of this proposed force's operations would be over the stormy NAT, in winter. Is putting them out there in a single engine Grippen or second hand F16 too risky, or should we really be looking at more expensive twin engine platforms?

I have no doubt Uncle Sam would give us very competitive pricing and support on F15/16/18 platforms, but the opposition from Joe Public to any cost of any Fighter from any nation is the elephant in the room.
So you value Russian air bandits, breaking all ICAO norms of comms, airmanship, busting through commercial airways which your children could be travelling...over and above squawking NATO military jets, which obey the rules of the air and don't put anyone in danger.

Methinks you may have an agenda here...

[ORAC]

No arguments from me there. My point was in response to the risk of them colliding with civilian traffic as a result of implied illegal activity by operating + or - 500ft of civilian traffic, which isn't breaking any rules. I've seen a few cases of military traffic busting separation minima with civilian traffic, none involved the Russians.
UDT,

No implication of illegality, just risk. I accept the arguments against fighters but believe primary 3D radar would be prudent.

Again over 25 years ago, but I’ve been controlling fighters trailing Bears down the North Sea IMC at FL360 and had to call LATCC to advise them that they had non-squawking traffic 30nm north southbound on a collision co-alt and avoiding action was advisable.

(The first response was that “I have priority get them to turn - who’ controlling them anyway!”. To which my reply was that I wasn’t sure, but probably Moscow….

If I have a comparable situation in the past it was the Cyprus FIR back in the mid 1970s where we monitored and provided a radar advisory service for numerous friendly NATO recce/ESM aircraft monitoring the various wars and areas of interest in the eastern Med and observed all the other aircraft operating in the same area.

Nicosia at the time provided a procedural service and we’re blissfully unaware of all of them. The day they switched on their first radar they just about cr***ed themselves and the telephone line between us was heavily used fir a few weeks whilst they became aware of who was who and what they were doing.

[air pig]

and there's often no fixed wing medical/SAR availability because either there aren't enough flight crews or military controllers to be on call. These issues need to be fixed first.

Night fixed wing aero-med is contracted out to a civilian company on wet lease, who occasionally provide cover in the daytime. They are based at Dublin airport.

[mopardave]

It's them that the Russians are trying to antagonise anyway. Let them.

What a strange attitude?

[DHC4]

Joint Squadron? Could RoI part-fund a QRA squadron, and provide people as well? I'm sure some of the IAC guys could qualify as fast-jet pilots? Use the infrastructure already in place for Typhoon, but get a sensible contribution from Dublin, and make it bilateral. (And as an NI resident, I reckon ex-RAF Aldergrove would be an ideal location!!)

Haha, the DUP would blow another gasket.

[Una Due Tfc]

UDT,

No implication of illegality, just risk. I accept the arguments against fighters but believe primary 3D radar would be prudent.

Again over 25 years ago, but I’ve been controlling fighters trailing Bears down the North Sea IMC at FL360 and had to call LATCC to advise them that they had non-squawking traffic 30nm north southbound on a collision co-alt and avoiding action was advisable.

(The first response was that “I have priority get them to turn - who’ controlling them anyway!”. To which my reply was that I wasn’t sure, but probably Moscow….

If I have a comparable situation in the past it was the Cyprus FIR back in the mid 1970s where we monitored and provided a radar advisory service for numerous friendly NATO recce/ESM aircraft monitoring the various wars and areas of interest in the eastern Med and observed all the other aircraft operating in the same area.

Nicosia at the time provided a procedural service and we’re blissfully unaware of all of them. The day they switched on their first radar they just about cr***ed themselves and the telephone line between us was heavily used fir a few weeks whilst they became aware of who was who and what they were doing.

No arguments from me on PSR cost wise, but it would also run into the issue of lack of controllers in the IAC. Pre COVID, as soon as a controller in there got their hours and met their minimum service in the Defence Forces, the good/sensible ones jumped ship to IAA/NATS etc due vastly superior remunerations on offer. They barely have enough controllers to cover a small surveillance/danger area in the region around Casement. To have full surveillance over the entire island and up to a few hundred nm off the coast, they’d need to massively recruit, and build an adequate control center. More realistic would be to run the PSR feed into Dublin and Shannon ACCs and have us use it. I’m always happy to have more tools available to do my job.

And yes nighttime medivac is privately operated ex DUB, because it was outsourced after the IAC could no longer do it due lack of manpower.

[air pig]

And yes nighttime medivac is privately operated ex DUB, because it was outsourced after the IAC could no longer do it due lack of manpower.

With only one Lear 45 available IAC, there is no back up for unserviceability, maintenance, crew training or other tasks etc, whereas the contracted company has numerous aircraft and crews who rotate through DUB.

[Una Due Tfc]

With only one Lear 45 available IAC, there is no back up for unserviceability, maintenance, crew training or other tasks etc, whereas the contracted company has numerous aircraft and crews who rotate through DUB.

The 235s did medivac (and still occasionally do when they can crew it), as well as the Lear.

[Just a spotter]

Haha, the DUP would blow another gasket.As would Sinn Féin, who oppose investment in the Irish Military or the collaboration of the defence forces with other services around the world

The Irish Defence Forces are officially known as Óglaigh na hÉireann in Irish. The name has historical resonance, being first used by the Irish Volunteers in 1913, the group being formed in response to the Ulster Covenant of 1912 and creation of the armed Ulster Volunteers as a militia to oppose Home Rule. Since the foundation of the State in 1922 every flavour of the IRA has styled itself using the name and even this year there has been elected members of Sinn Féin who have refused to distance themselves from the use of the tile for their ‘comrades’.

WRT patient transfer, the Lear 45, CASA 235's and AW 139's are used and I beleive the PC-12's are or will be.

JAS