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Further consideration of Irish Air Defence

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Further consideration of Irish Air Defence

Old 20th Jun 2021, 00:45
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Further consideration of Irish Air Defence

The ‘gaping gap’ in Ireland’s airspace defence (irishtimes.com)

Further concerns about the Irish Air Corps' ability to defend its own airspace.

FB
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 08:57
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Option 2 20 million euro a year extra for 50 FA-50's looks good - if you can afford the CAPEX

or they could ask Biden for a couple of F-16 squadrons at family rates
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 12:41
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Opton 2 is for EIGHT FA-50s, not 50.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 12:59
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Depends if they want to hold a pair on QRA.

Two state means two to rotate plus a couple of spares for deep maintenance etc. If you want another couple for 1v1 training that means a minimum of 8. For attrition etc it would be better to aim at 12.

Surprised to see the FA-50, maybe just as an option against the Italian M346 which they might get help from through the EU.

40:Gripen is a pipe dream. Not only in getting the money to buy them but in finding the pilots to fly them and the ground crew to support them. I would have thought 8-12 Gripen a more realistic option alongside the other two above.

I am sure a Uncle Sam would look fondly on supplying some older F-16s at a reasonable price - but the spares and support costs might make the politicians eyes water when the bills start to roll in.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 13:44
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Thanks Martin for the correctionLast year, former Air Corps chief Ralph James estimated Ireland may need 16 fighter jets, with each serviced by three crews, to provide a true 24/7 fast response capability to threats. “But aircraft systems are no good without the supporting systems. So you have the radar system, the reporting systems and intelligence systems to evaluate threats,” he said. “Then also backing up the airplane you have things like air traffic control, fire crews and so on.”

and of course there is always some who miss the whole point....
"In a submission to the commission, MEP Clare Daly urged that that any additional funding for defence should be earmarked to improve pay and conditions over any plans to invest in new equipment"
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 17:20
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Ireland doesn't even have night fixed wing aero-medical capability.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 17:27
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Waste of money.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 17:44
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
Waste of money.
Yes, let UK do it for you. 👎
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 18:46
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It would take a lot more than a few fighters fighters, unless the attackers were considerate enough to use transponders.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 19:03
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Joint Squadron? Could RoI part-fund a QRA squadron, and provide people as well? I'm sure some of the IAC guys could qualify as fast-jet pilots? Use the infrastructure already in place for Typhoon, but get a sensible contribution from Dublin, and make it bilateral. (And as an NI resident, I reckon ex-RAF Aldergrove would be an ideal location!!)
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 19:44
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What, exactly, is the threat to Irish airspace? The only possible one is Russia, and if things got to the stage of Russia attacking Ireland (!!!) what use would a couple of light Korean baby-jets on QRA be?

Where's their C & C?
Where's their surveillance radar and fighter director system?

Looks to me like a silly solution in desperate search of a problem - or are they afraid of surprise incursions by uninvited British sausages?

Much more likely it's just Empire Building.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 22:06
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What, exactly, is the threat to Irish airspace? The only possible one is Russia
You obviously haven’t read the post and links above.

The primary concern is flight safety with non-transponding Russian bombers transiting their airspace and with no primary radars.*

That could be solved with the installation of primary capable radars and an agreement with NATO on the provision of early warning. Hence the quote of 3 radar systems at about €20M each.

The secondary concern is from hijacked aircraft as in 9/11 where they might wish to escort and/or intervene on any such aircraft within Irish airspace - which is where fighters come into the equation.

There is no mention of a war fighting capability.

(* Accepting it’s over 25 years ago, as an AD controller running Northern QRA intercepts from Buchan, I am aware of at least 2 MISREPs from QRA fighters following Bears west of Ireland reporting them as being co-alt or no more than 500ft below transatlantic traffic and passing within a few hundred yards of them without any obvious avoidance action.)

Last edited by ORAC; 20th Jun 2021 at 22:48.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 22:13
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Yes, let UK do it for you. 👎
It's them that the Russians are trying to antagonise anyway. Let them.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 22:52
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It's them that the Russians are trying to antagonise anyway. Let them.
So when a 777 or A350 goes down after a midair with a non-squawker they can explain its all the fault of the British?

Love to see how that would work out in the courts….
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 23:06
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Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
So when a 777 or A350 goes down after a midair with a non-squawker they can explain its all the fault of the British?

Love to see how that would work out in the courts….
The Russians are doing exactly the same thing out there as the US, UK and France, operating Due Regard and being responsible for their own separation. Operating 500 feet above or below civilian traffic is in accordance with Due Regard. And as an ATCO in the airspace in question, I can assure you it is not the Russians who cause me the most hassle out there. They stay quiet, avoid everyone and mind their own business. There are other State forces that either don’t know the difference between Due Regard, a flighplan and a clearance or wilfully drift from one to another when it suits.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 23:54
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Sorry, ATCO considerations aren’t the final word on whether a nation needs ADF.
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 23:56
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That could be solved with the installation of primary capable radars and an agreement with NATO on the provision of early warning. Hence the quote of 3 radar systems at about €20M each.
Would an agreement with NATO breech Irish neutrality?
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Old 20th Jun 2021, 23:59
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Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post
The Russians are doing exactly the same thing out there as the US, UK and France, operating Due Regard and being responsible for their own separation. Operating 500 feet above or below civilian traffic is in accordance with Due Regard. And as an ATCO in the airspace in question, I can assure you it is not the Russians who cause me the most hassle out there. They stay quiet, avoid everyone and mind their own business. There are other State forces that either don’t know the difference between Due Regard, a flighplan and a clearance or wilfully drift from one to another when it suits.
And what about the few thousands of yards of trailing aerial from TU142s?
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Old 21st Jun 2021, 06:42
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Air_pig,

No, it is already a member of the NATO Partnership for Peace programme.

And of course, already has the above mentioned agreement with the UK about penetrating Irish airspace, which, by its very nature, implies that Ireland would have to be provided with early warning of any threat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irel...told-1.4580389

Cooperation and coordination with neighbouring countries does not require joining the military alliance.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates.../2020-10-08/1/
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Old 21st Jun 2021, 08:26
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"Sorry, ATCO considerations aren’t the final word on whether a nation needs ADF."

That is the question - does Ireland NEED a modern air defence force? TBH the realistic air threats are negligible
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