PDA

View Full Version : Logging PIC on Profiency checks


SimoFly
19th Jun 2021, 04:47
Hi,

I would like to ask about the proficiency checks for SEP/MEP and IR.
Does the pilot revalidating or renewing the ratings have to log as PIC time the proficiency checks or is it signed as dual?
(I am referring to the instructor/examiner, I am referring to the pilot that needs to revalidate/renew his ratings)

Many thanks in advance,

rudestuff
19th Jun 2021, 07:02
Examiner is PIC, candidate is PIC/US if successful, Dual if not.

Whopity
19th Jun 2021, 08:29
Rudestuff is correct for the UK where the CAA made provision for this, but as you are in Italy, there is no provision in the EU regulation for PICUS in single pilot operations which suggests that you can only log it as Dual.

hueyracer
19th Jun 2021, 12:19
I would disagree with you.

The examiner is not Pic-he is not supposed to fly the aircraft or even touch the controls (unless in an emergency, in which case the check ride will be over).

The pilot undergoing his PC is checked out in the role of Pic, therefor he can log this time as Pic SP...

Edgington
19th Jun 2021, 13:03
Logging of flight is up to the competent authority that issued your licence, if that's Italy you need to check their guidance. AMC1 to FCL.050 does give some guidance as to logging flight time.

Whopity
19th Jun 2021, 13:55
The examiner is not Pic
The European regulation does not agree with you!
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;

hueyracer
19th Jun 2021, 14:23
The European regulation does not agree with you!
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time



You are correct.
And it was reported to EASA multiple times by different pilots that this is in contradiction of (I) and (II) :

. (i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time
during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time
all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under
supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under
supervision are countersigned by the instructor;

Depending on the aircraft and configuration, the examiner might as well occupy a seat in the rear (in which case your paragraph would not be applicable, of course.).

Whopity
19th Jun 2021, 15:24
Its not really a contradiction, (i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time
during which he or she is the PIC;
a pilot on a test is operating the aircraft as directed by the Examiner who is legally PIC; therefore thay are not PIC, but PIC under supervision. The UK CAA accepts this but the regulation does not.
SPIC is specific to an Integrated course where a student can only practice IF with an instructor on board.

Fl1ingfrog
19th Jun 2021, 15:31
Depending on the aircraft and configuration, the examiner might as well occupy a seat in the rear (in which case your paragraph would not be applicable, of course.).


The pilot being tested does not direct the flight, the examiner does this. The candidate is being assessed: demonstrating the ability to act as Pilot in Command, but acting always in accordance with instructions issued by the examiner (the PIC). These directions will be given before and throughout the flight itself. There is always the possibility that the candidate fails in the task and therefore could be considered unsafe. The PIC (the Examiner) will decide this and maybe take the controls having instructed the candidate to hand over. To say the candidate is at any time actually in charge and therefore able to issue instructions to the examiner is ridiculous.

hueyracer
19th Jun 2021, 16:07
To say the candidate is at any time actually in charge and therefore able to issue instructions to the examiner is ridiculous.


Where has anyone ever said this?


An examiner is not allowed to "instruct" (read as: Giving lessons to the pilot)......but i understand you mean it in a way that the examiner is telling the pilot what to do next?

EASA-through the LBA-was very adament about that an examiner is NOT an instructor, and that any examiner who would "instruct" on a PC or ST would risk his privileges being stripped....

EXDAC
19th Jun 2021, 16:54
Don't know the rules in Italy but in USA there is clear distinction between "acting as PIC" and "logging PIC time". The pilot flying does not have to be acting as PIC but may log PIC as the sole manipulator of the controls. For the case posed by the OP doesn't the answer depend on whether the applicant is current at the time of the check ride?

For every flight review or new rating check ride in USA I logged time as PIC.

albatross
19th Jun 2021, 17:42
The pilot being tested does not direct the flight, the examiner does this. The candidate is being assessed: demonstrating the ability to act as Pilot in Command, but acting always in accordance with instructions issued by the examiner (the PIC). These directions will be given before and throughout the flight itself. There is always the possibility that the candidate fails in the task and therefore could be considered unsafe. The PIC (the Examiner) will decide this and maybe take the controls having instructed the candidate to hand over. To say the candidate is at any time actually in charge and therefore able to issue instructions to the examiner is ridiculous.

Joke” So if the PPC is carried out in Controlled Airspace does the ATC log PIC time as he is directing the flight? You know that ‘turn port, turn starboard, climb or descend, slow to 150 KTS, hold at the Wifflebank NDB’ and such.” Joke over.
Strangely enough I flew in one country that, for reasons unknown, ruled that if there were two Captains flying together both would log the time as PIC. Being as we were employed by a local company, licensed in and flying aircraft registered in the country we complied. By mutual agreement amongst us, however, we agreed that would be one Capt. who was a bit more PIC than the other on all flights regardless of what went in the logbook. The local authority monitored our logs regularly and with a fine tooth comb.We found it highly amusing.

Stan Evil
19th Jun 2021, 18:05
As Whopity says, in EASAland it's down to the competent authority to decide their rules. The Belgians require successful tests, checks and assessments to be logged as PIC, but with the examiner's name in the 'Captain' column.

Fl1ingfrog
19th Jun 2021, 22:12
joke” So if the PPC is carried out in Controlled Airspace does the ATC log PIC time as he is directing the flight? You know that ‘turn port, turn starboard, climb or descend, slow to 150 KTS, hold at the Wifflebank NDB’ and such.” Joke over.

The PIC never ceases to remain so even when flying subject to RADAR control. You were quite right to refer to your scenario as a joke.

I would have thought the following is obvious but for those who wish to have it spelt out here it is. I do not know of any ICAO member country who deviates from any the following.

The pilot-in-command of an aircraft shall have final authority as to the disposition of the aircraft while in command. Both FAR 91.3(b) and ICAO Annex 2, par. 2.3.1, specifically empower the PIC to override any other regulation in an emergency, and to take the safest course of action at his/her sole discretion.U.S. FAA and ICAO pilot in command regulations (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#:~:text=The%20pilot-in-command%20of%20an%20aircraft%20shall%20have%20final,safest%2 0course%20of%20action%20at%20his%2Fher%20sole%20discretion.) Logging pilot in command timeUnder U.S. FAA FAR 14 CFR 61.51,[6] (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#cite_note-6) logging flight time as a PIC is different and distinct from acting as the legal PIC for a flight. In general, the PIC of a given flight may always log his or her flying time as such, while other crew members may or may not be authorized to log their time on that flight as PIC time, depending on the specific circumstances and the controlling jurisdiction.[7] (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#cite_note-7)


The Pilot in Command must hold the rank of Captain (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Captain), and typically sits in the left seat. The second in command can be a First Officer (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/First_officer_(aviation)) or another Captain, and will occupy the right seat. An exception exists where a Captain is being trained, in which case two Captains will occupy the cockpit, a Training Captain will be the Pilot in Command and will occupy the right seat.The pilot in command (PIC) of an aircraft (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Aircraft) is the person aboard the aircraft who is ultimately responsible for its operation and safety during flight. This would be the captain in a typical two- or three-pilot (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Aircraft_pilot) aircrew (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Aircrew), or "pilot" if there is only one certificated and qualified pilot at the controls of an aircraft. The PIC must be legally certificated (or otherwise authorized) to operate the aircraft for the specific flight and flight conditions, but need not be actually manipulating the controls at any given moment. The PIC is the person legally in charge of the aircraft and its flight safety and operation, and would normally be the primary person liable for an infraction of any flight rule.

EXDAC
19th Jun 2021, 22:36
U.S. FAA and ICAO pilot in command regulations (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#:~:text=The%20pilot-in-command%20of%20an%20aircraft%20shall%20have%20final,safest%2 0course%20of%20action%20at%20his%2Fher%20sole%20discretion.) Logging pilot in command timeUnder U.S. FAA FAR 14 CFR 61.51,[6] (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#cite_note-6)

The Pilot in Command must hold the rank of Captain (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Captain), and typically sits in the left seat.

Well I may as well put all my logs in the garbage then. I have never held the rank of Captain and my PIC time has been accumulated in left seat, right seat, front seat, and back seat. Sometimes I even sat in the left seat and the right seat at the same time.

Of course, if it turned out that what you quoted was not a regulation at all, my logs might still be worth keeping.

Fl1ingfrog
19th Jun 2021, 23:12
if it turned out that what you quoted was not a regulation at all, my logs might still be worth keeping.

Well Captain EXDAC you have the source. Read the FARs carefully, you may be able to avoid the trash can after all. The regulations make it very clear that the rules regarding completing the log book are distinct from the flying regulations. To repeat:

Under U.S. FAA FAR 14 CFR 61.51,[6] (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#cite_note-6) logging flight time as a PIC is different and distinct from acting as the legal PIC for a flight. In general, the PIC of a given flight may always log his or her flying time as such, while other crew members may or may not be authorized to log their time on that flight as PIC time, depending on the specific circumstances and the controlling jurisdiction.[7] (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Pilot_in_command#cite_note-7)

The regulations are ICAO; the overall authority, but each NAA can file a difference as it sees fit. However the FARs and ICAO are almost synonymous. At least EASA thinks so.

EXDAC
19th Jun 2021, 23:58
So what happened to "The Pilot in Command must hold the rank of Captain (https://db0nus869y26v.cloudfront.net/en/Captain),"? Perhaps that went to the garbage can where it belongs.