COVID-19 vaccine and future pilot risks?

[ale.masetti]

Hi everyone,
I have been considering my vaccination over the past few months as I am approaching the age of being vaccinated.

The one thing that concerns me is the possibility of being vaccinated and developing a long term condition a few years after receiving the vaccine, taking me out of the cockpit after making the monstrous investment into it. We don’t yet understand the risk of that happening as the vaccines haven’t been out there for years. Now, I’ve ramped up my research around the topic to understand the risk of that happening and put my mind at rest.

what worries me even more is the possibility of Heath organisations reporting issues developing in the long term because of vaccines and insurance companies, being vicious as they famously are, adding clauses saying you won’t be covered if you’ve been vaccinated.

questions are:is anyone else thinking about this? am I tripping too hard here?
if not, has vaccination been spoken about by pilot insurance companies? What have they said?
Have insurance companies pulled pilots’ legs like that before?

everyone’s input is very welcome and I’m mainly interested in what people from Europe have to say here (EASA and CAA/UK regulated countries)

[PilotLZ]

I wouldn't be worried. The chances of getting a disqualifying decrease in fitness as a result of severe COVID so far seem a lot greater than the chances of losing fitness as a result of vaccination. To stay on the safe side, you might want to consult your cardiologist about any elevated risk of thrombosis etc you might have. That might influence your choice of vaccine.

[Denti]

Having spoken to my loss of license, they stated that any complication from an approved vaccine is covered. That said, they do not expect any long term problems, expecting for any problem to crop up within the first 2 weeks after each jab. Same as most medical professionals seem to do, although i am absolutely positive that Radgirl knows a whole lot more than me on that front.

[Radgirl]

Hi Denti

Not much to add. I wouldnt have the Chinese or Russian ones as they havent released enough data, dont always seem to contain what is on the label and dont seem that effective. However ale.masetti is in London and if not yet offered a vaccine will get Pfizer or Moderna. Both are just a bit of DNA, nanoparticles a bit like small bits of plastic we injest every day, and some water. There is a trace of antifreeze too but less than you get in a good dollop of hair conditioner, although I accept we dont eat much.

The CDC in the US have looked at 101 MILLION vaccinated people. 126 deaths but 28 were definitely not covid. The median age of the other 98 was 81 so I surmise they died of old age, although we know the vaccines dont work in people who are immunosuppressed (cancer, transplant, Rheumatoid etc) and many more than 98 in 101 million will be immunosuppressed.

So personally I consider myself safe now I am vaccinated. I may need a booster but Uger Sahin who invented the Pfizer vaccine and paid personally for the research will tell us all when, and have it ready in a month.

Long term it is really difficult to see how DNA (and mRNA is a form of DNA) targeted to create neutralising antibodies and immunoglobulins but then being broken down in the body can create any issues long term. There isnt a process for it to do anything. It isnt a drug, there are no metabolites and it does nothing to organs.

Pilot LZ is right - the risks are tiny the benefits are massive. Sadly the Indian variant does spread more easily. Modelling suggest this means we have to have 90% of over 12s vaccinated or infected before we can stop lockdown without increasing cases. So please get vaccinated because there is nothing worse for pilots than no planes flying because the UK is locked down or the economy is bust.

[dns]

Interesting to see that Radgirl is saying they're "just a bit of DNA" like it's nothing to be concerned about!

How come injecting human beings with modified DNA is fine (even though it's not fully tested) yet simply eating genetically modified foods is a massive issue all over the world?!

The EU tried to ban GM crops completely, yet it's ok inject the population with "GM vaccines"?!

[chuboy]

Eating GM crops isn't an issue actually, like vaccine hysteria it's totally overblown.

[Fostex]

dns

Radgirl is correct and her comment is based on fact, yours is not.

GM crops are a completely different paradigm to a mRNA based vaccine.

The mRNA does not modify the host DNA, in fact it never enters the nucleus of the cell. Rather the mRNA is used by the cell as instructions to replicate an antigen, the spike protein. This antigen is then expressed by the host cell to trigger an immune response. Crucially the mRNA is non-self replicating and it broken down by the cell.

In the case of a GM based crops the plant genome is modified to produce desirable characteristics. The concern from regulatory bodies is that GM based crops can replicate in the field and may displace others in a particular biome.

[keeprighton1974]

The mRNA does not modify the host DNA,


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210611174037.htm.New discovery shows human cells can write RNA sequences into DNASource:Thomas Jefferson University
Summary:In a discovery that challenges long-held dogma in biology, researchers show that mammalian cells can convert RNA sequences back into DNA, a feat more common in viruses than eukaryotic cells.

[Radgirl]

sorry keeprighton1974 this is irrelevant

The paper is about RNA inside the cell where it normally is. Every cell has masses of DNA and RNA controlling the cell.

The vaccine is a tiny amount injected into a muscle OUTSIDE the cells. Doesnt come into contact with your DNA

[Fostex]

Is it "not so bright after all" to have surgery, to take antibiotics, to take oral birth control. All carry risks.

The truth is that ALL medical procedures carry some statistical risk, as does taking a flight in an aircraft for that matter. We tolerate that risk because an adverse outcome is a statistically insignificant event and the positive benefits outweigh the risk.

If you start questioning regulatory processes then I recommend you avoid all medical treatments from now on, aviation too for that matter.

[AirUK]

Well said. Too many seem to have lost the ability to put things into perspective throughout this pandemic.

[dns]

Fostex

This is the exact reason I'm not having the "jab" for now.

The statistics show that the risk of me being badly affected by Covid is very very low, the risk of the "vaccine" may be a lot higher, so I'm in no rush to get it.

It pains me to see so much pressure being put on people even younger and healthier than I am to have the jab.

[pusight]

I would advise doing some research into adverse effects of the experimental mRNA gene therapy. The yellow card system is a start: https://yellowcard.mhra.gov.uk/ but a better front end to that information, which is easily searchable is at: https://yellowcard.ukcolumn.org/yellow-card-reports . Many doctor groups have called for a halt.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/7/693/htm
The present assessment raises the question whether it would be necessary to rethink policies and use COVID-19 vaccines more sparingly and with some discretion only in those that are willing to accept the risk because they feel more at risk from the true infection than the mock infection. Perhaps it might be necessary to dampen the enthusiasm by sober facts? In our view, the EMA and national authorities should instigate a safety review into the safety database of COVID-19 vaccines and governments should carefully consider their policies in light of these data. Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects. Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude.
-----------------------------------
By Malone inventor of mRNA technology
https://trialsitenews.com/bioethics-of-experimental-covid-vaccine-deployment-under-eua-its-time-we-stop-and-look-at-whats-going-down/
-----------------------------------
https://www.crick.ac.uk/news/2021-06-03_pfizer-biontech-vaccine-recipients-have-lower-antibody-levels-targeting-the-delta-variant-first-discovered-in-indiaThey found that in people who had been fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, levels of neutralising antibodies were more than five times lower* against the B.1.617.2 variant when compared to the original strain, upon which current vaccines are based.

Importantly, this antibody response was even lower in people who had only received one dose. After a single dose of Pfizer-BioNTech, 79% of people had a quantifiable neutralising antibody response against the original strain, but this fell to 50% for B.1.1.7, 32% for B.1.617.2 and 25% for B.1.351.
-------------------------
Class action in progress
https://www.bitchute.com/video/tmSpGjVV1lsl/

[AirUK]

Sounds like you’re a medical expert. So why are you on PPRuNe preaching to furloughed pilots when you should be advising the government?

[dns]

AirUK

This attempt to shut down anyone who expresses a different opinion really is getting quite boring...

It doesn't take a medical expert to be able to read statistics and studies. In fact, most medical studies are deliberately written so they can be understood by non-medical professionals!

[pusight]

I am not a medical expert, but the information in freely available if you look for it.

[pusight]

I believe this refers to the distribution of the Lipids, which forms part of the "vaccine" delivery system. This was not made public before for the authorization of use and I understand that the information was obtained by a FOI to Japan. The significance is that these nano particles are collecting in organs, they were meant to remain in the muscle at the delivery point. One example, there is a host of period related problems in women post vax, looks at VARS / yellowcard. The ovaries control periods, thus is it the collection of lipids in the ovaries causing these problems?

[Fostex]

dns

If you are 39 as your profile suggests, what you have stated is incorrect based on the surveillance of serious illness occurring as a result of Covid-19.

[dns]

Less than 1 in 5000 according to Oxford's Q-Covid system.

Not something that's going to get me rushing out to get the jab, but I appreciate that others may weigh the risks up differently.

[Denti]

As a pilot i would think about long covid. Around 20 to 25% of all those infected do have long covid, and pretty much all of the symptoms associated with that will cause a pilot to lose his medical permanently. And in the end it is a choice between becoming immunized by getting the jab or getting infected.

[Fostex]

dns

Quite alarming if you are willing to accept a risk of 1 in 5000 of serious complications or sequelae from Covid-19 over the much lower risks of a vaccination.

I think I shall leave it at that chaps as this has descended into nonsense.

[dns]

We don't KNOW that the risks are much lower!

Anyway, it's my decision, guess only time will tell whether it's the right one

[Radgirl]

this has descended into nonsense.

Spot on Fostex but not because of dns's comment

This attempt to shut down anyone who expresses a different opinion really is getting quite boring...

but because people are quoting papers with no value. Please look at the qualifications of the authors.If none is medically qualified then be suspicious. And we keep getting 'learned publications' which state 'I was talking to a person I met in the street'. This is gossip not science.

There is nothing I can add because the issues raised have no foundation or are wrong. Anyone is welcome to send me a paper and I am happy to appraise it objectively and post anything new. I receive 20 papers a day from leading journals. I make no money from the vaccines and will happily call out issues, but the problem facing aviation is that those who are frightened from getting vaccinated by rubbish papers are reducing the total percentage vaccinated. The Indian or Delta variant needs 90% vaccination to suppress it so if you pilots want to return to full time flying we need to overcome hesitancy

[AirUK]

Spot on Radgirl :ok:

[habubauza]

Also struggling with the vaccine decision. Problem in the US, is that the debate is being shut down. Experienced scientists, including those responsible for the mRNA vaccine itself are being deplatformed. Most of them are not anti-vaccine, they advocate more time, more research and transparency regarding the vaccine. I feel the best is vigorous and open debate from both sides, regarding Covid-19 and the vaccine, but we are not getting that.

https://rumble.com/vhp7y5-full-interview-world-renowned-doctor-blows-lid-off-of-covid-vaccine.html

[Fostex]

As RadGirl points out, scrutinising and critically appraising a paper or article is a skill. It requires knowledge of how studies are conducted, statistics and an understanding of the underlying subject matter. Most of the ‘click bait’ links chase any article/paper reflecting a particular agenda, fair from being a critical review. Furthermore the ‘renowned scientists’ mentioned in these papers often aren’t and caution is advised.

I find it staggering that people on this forum continue to question regulatory processes that they have no expertise in and that have been refined over the years to regulate the pharmaceutical industry. Even more staggering that pilots are doing this, a cohort of individuals whose jobs are based around following regulatory processes and SOPs.

[Denti]

habubauza

Again, scrutinizing the experience and qualifications of the quoted doctor should help with the decision. A cardiologist, as useful as he might be in his field, is neither a virologist nor a vaccine developer, in fact in his normal job he never has to deal with vaccines at all, there is nothing to vaccinate for a cardiologist.

Just for reference, the vaccines approved in the USA have also been approved in the EU. Unlike the USA they do not have an emergency approval, they have the normal full approval same as any other vaccine has, which requires the full and complete set of trials to be done. The new thing this time around was simply the amount of money available for development (throwing a few billions at that problem is cheap if you consider the trillions of economical damage) and the willingness to participate in the very largescale studies done.

As said above by others: we live in a post-information society. So the ability to assess the veracity of news sources is absolutely critical, as is the ability to get information from different sources, and most crucially, outside of ones own bubble. Of course it gets a bit easier if you have access to scientific journals and the ability to read studies and judge their thoroughness and how well they are peer reviewed.

[habubauza]

I respect others opinions, but at some point I hope you all take the time to actually hear what Dr. McCullough has to say, and truly analyze his qualifications and statement regarding the Covid-19 response and subsequent vaccinations. Then make a judgment. It should be noted that the manufacturing origins of where the mRNA vaccines came from is the same place where the emergency use authorization is in effect, so yes that means something. They are about to issue warnings regarding heart inflammation, things that people have been aware of for sometime. They are currently analyzing information regarding the effects of vaccinating pregnant women particularly with regards to the first trimester. Pregnant women were not included in trials. The vaccine developer and virologist most responsible for the mRNA vaccine technology that's currently in use has been de-platformed from multiple places, why? All of a sudden he's an idiot? I don't think so. Open debate. Transparency. The ability to make a truly informed decision.That's all we want.

[Denti]

I would be interested where Ugur Sahin and Özlem Türeci have been de-platformed. They developed the "Pfizer" mRNA vaccine, the first one certified both in the US (emergency) and EU (full certification). Yes, it is known as Pfizer vaccine, but was in fact not developed by Pfizer, but by BioNTech who took Pfizer in as partner for its pure manufacturing muscle during the phase 3 trials. I read comments and interviews from Ugur Sahin nearly on a nearly daily basis, not surprising, after all i am based in his home country Germany, but he and his team do not seem to be de-platformed at all, quite the opposite actually.

Yes, vaccines have side effects. Obviously they do, but they are surprisingly rare, especially in the mRNA vaccines, less so in the vector-based ones although even there the serious side effects are extremely rare. Heart inflammation is by now a well known side effect, especially in young males and quite easily treatable.

And yes, open debate and transparency is a very good sentiment. In fact, there are several specialized platforms for that, for example the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet and so on. I suggest reading those, it is truly wonderful information, discussed and peer reviewed before publication and based on a very broad scientific consensus.

[Loose rivets]

I've kept reasonably quiet about what ails me just lately but it has to be said that if I could go back in time, December/January, and NOT have my Pfizer jabs, I might well do just that just to see what the difference would be. I've felt ill with a mixture of symptoms for a long time but the last few months have been hard to endure. Daily, I consider not enduring them.

When finally I was able to see a doctor we sat talking for at least two sessions, possibly three, but he has no idea what's wrong with me. I have an horrendous increase in a confused spectrum of tinnitus, the associated deafness is all but total. One day I'm cycling to the beach for my walk, the next I can barely make it to the front door. A focussed feeling of inflammation in a point ~S2/3, seems to coincide with other problems. Wine was a focal part of my day, avoiding cheap wine like the plague. But now, half a glass will give an almost instant headache which will last much of the night. In the middle of all this I lost my tear production and the wonderful job Ipswich eye hospital did for me is spoiled as nothing I can use comes close to real tears. I just can't accept Blephitis could start so abruptly in both eyes so wondered if there's a common cause. (I've tried heating the lids and coaxing stuff out of the ducts but with not real improvement.)

All in all I'm a mess and I accept some things as I approach 82, but it's the suddenness of the changes I find hard to comprehend. It's like a switch. However, Radgirl picked up on the fact that a bad period started before Covid hit the UK. I was just coming to terms with this when I had the jabs. There is no comparison with the December me and the wreck sitting here now.

The point being - so many of my friends, well, the few that are left, are saying the same thing. Some are saying they wish they hadn't had the jab. In real terms, without the time travel, I'd have them anyway as I consider it a duty, but I'd love to know what's going on. The stuff being jabbed in is by design supposed to be noticed, presumably to elicit one form of reaction or another and while I accept I'm reacting to more and more unwanted things - and my body has become a war-zone for quite unnecessary battles - I don't feel confident that anything being introduced, anywhere, in my systems will leave me free from unwanted reactions of one sort or another.

So, put me down for an undecided.

Funnily enough, my son's dissertation was on Stress and the Immune System.

[Denti]

Those symptoms sound awfully like long Covid, many who had it, even without symptoms, describe similar long term changes. Which is why it is so wrong to "just" concentrate on deaths, as roughly 20% of those that contracted the virus will have similar life changing experiences for a long time. And in our profession that means not only the changes itself, but also losing ones job.

I had around 4 to 5 days of side effects after my AZ jab, only had the first one so far. And yes, those were mildly unpleasant and stronger than for any flue jab i ever got, but very much manageable. Will be interesting to see how my second jab (BioNTech/Pfizer or Moderna) will work out. Yes, over here in Germany it was already advised for those under 60 to get different vaccines if the first was AZ, now it is the standard policy for all to get AZ first and any mRNA vaccine as second jab. 12 weeks between jabs is deemed the optimal time frame, but that can be shortened to 6 weeks if one really has to go on vacation.

Anyway, hope you do experience an improvement in your situation, that does indeed sound awful.

[Loose rivets]

Mentioned in the Times this morning. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/experimental-heart-drug-cures-long-covid-in-hours-h0mfv3hs5?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR35dizqP_jVDtMLE1lKj38rsgljJycqvPDAWXv-ZCR6GTWB0EPkYy9b4jg#Echobox=1625555002-1

One of many Wiki - https://berlincures.de/new-paper/

[maxed-out]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7142689/

Similar concerns to the above were brought up in my lectures in relation to specific vaccines (not SARS) when I was in med school, before I moved to the dark side that is.

I think one could find an interesting correlation between multiple strain- single dose vaccines vs cytokine storms, autoimmunity and death. For the non-clinically minded, skip the list of proteins, it’s heavy reading.

Let us also not forget that moving from SARS to SARS Cov 2 doesn’t naturally occur over 10 years. This mutation takes a very very long time. It was helped along.

[Ollie Onion]

dns

There is NO DNA in the COVID vaccines. You might want to ‘research’ what mRNA is and how it in no way relates to DNA, interacts with or changes DNA.