Information sought about this photo

[Chris Royle]

What is known about this photo is;11" x 7" original Black & White photo in contemporary wood frame 14" x 11"

Signed "Louis Noel" dated 4 July 1913
The location is thought to be Hendon and the passenger identity ?Edwin Simmons.
Any further information welcomed.
Thanks in advance
Chris


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/577x433/1913_photo_626a17e9be3eeb4a13ec2ce4d5aa9264b644ec06.jpeg

[Self loading bear]

Nice photo
I think a Maurice Farman MF 7
like this one:
Farman

Louis Noël is also mentioned at an alamy photo:
Louis Noël (https://www.alamy.com/a-maurice-farman-biplane-piloted-by-louis-noel-an-early-french-aviator-preparing-to-take-off-photograph-taken-in-england-in-1913-image233404442.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=85046662-D3BF-4FA1-ACE9-6AA12E199A38&p=362663&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26r esultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dfarman%2520aircr aft%26qt_raw%3dfarman%2520aircraft%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3 d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackw hite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x00000000000000000000 0%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3 d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid %3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26l ightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26sav eQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26custom geoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%2 6edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0%26pl%3d)


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1300x983/38a6e647_a150_414a_97be_cf196f325cb8_d4ae761aae3fef21c0b7268 14cf5ec9ddf76568e.jpeg

[134brat]

Louis Noel was employed by the Grahame-White flying school at Hendon in 1913. RAeS Aviators Certificate 416 was granted to Lieutenant M W Noel 18/02/13 but I am not sure if this is the same person.

[longer ron]

Louis Noel was Cert No 119 (1911)

https://i.imgur.com/df0MpCD.jpg

[Asturias56]

the original picture, without the inscription, is here https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/vintage-postcard-featuring-a-photograph-of-british-aviators-news-photo/1080752246

Edwin Simmonds is hard to find but 25th September 1916 - Flying Officer Killed Near Birmingham executing loop-the-loop. | Worcestershire WW1 Centenary (http://www.ww1worcestershire.co.uk/key-dates/1916/09/flying-officer-killed-near-birmingham-executing-loop-the-loop/) lists :-Casualties

Pte. Albert Stride30637 - 1st Bn Worcs Reg
Albert Cull21215 - Grenadier Guards
Albert Hooper28716 - Machine Gun Corps
Edwin Simmons14248 - Scots Guards

but he appears to have been Private - not likely to be able to afford flying lessons I'd think https://www.astreetnearyou.org/person/609869/Private-Edwin--Simmons

SIMMONS, EDWIN (https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/609869)

Additional information:Son of the late Mr. and Mrs. Henry Simmons; husband of Minnie Louise Simmons, of 6, St. James's Place, Brighton.Cemetery:SERRE ROAD CEMETERY No.2 (https://www.astreetnearyou.org/cemetery/67200/SERRE%20ROAD%20CEMETERY%20No.2)Cemetery/memorial reference:IV. H. 19.Country:United Kingdom

[134brat]

Dallas-Brett's History of British Aviation shows Certificate 119 as having been issued to Mr Theodore J Ridge on the 17th of August 1911. Unfortunately Mr Ridge was killed in an accident the 18th of August 1911, looks like his number was reallocated to Noel.

[longer ron]

Apologies Louis Noel was Cert No 116 - typo on my part :)

[Asturias56]

A google search brings up a possible mention of a photographer - you'd have to search through the pages in the Univ of Leicester website

CONTENTdm (http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/search/searchterm/Edwin%20Simmons%20photographer)STREET DIRECTORY, 1914. - Special Collections Online (http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/api/collection/p16445coll4/id/136988/download)http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk › collection › download (http://specialcollections.le.ac.uk/digital/api/collection/p16445coll4/id/136988/download)
STREET DIRECTORY, 1914. 324 Ferrari Giovannf, confectioner. 332 & 334 ... 53 Langton Edwin Simmons, pho~apher. 55 Ash croft J ohu. 57 Stevens Alfred ...

Also a Sir Oliver Edwin Simmonds who was withe RAE in the 20's but he looks to be too young... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Simmonds - maybe a relative???

[meleagertoo]

In longer ron's pic what's the horn-like device on the fuselage? It doesn't look like a venturi - and they didn't have gyro instruments then - surely it's not - a horn?

[Fournierf5]

Louis Noel was Cert No 119 (1911)

https://i.imgur.com/df0MpCD.jpg

from theLeinster Reporter - Saturday 27 September 1913Mr Louis Noel piloted the Grahame White aerial "char-a-banc" at Hendon on Sunday afternoon, when a world', record was established by the carrying of seven passengers for 17 minutes 35 secs.

...and, from the Wigton Advertiser, 25th October 1913
Probably the heaviest passenger ever carried in a flight ascended in a Grahame-White biplane, piloted by Mr. Louis Noel, at the London Aerodrome. Hendon. The passenger, Mrs. Emma Griffiths, wife of the vicar of Mathry, Pembrokeshire, weighed 19st. 10lb

[longer ron]

In longer ron's pic what's the horn-like device on the fuselage? It doesn't look like a venturi - and they didn't have gyro instruments then - surely it's not - a horn?

It was indeed an Aaooogaah type Klaxon :)

[Chris Royle]

Thanks everyone. Fascinating. Keep the info coming :ok:

[Fournierf5]

from theLeinster Reporter - Saturday 27 September 1913Mr Louis Noel piloted the Grahame White aerial "char-a-banc" at Hendon on Sunday afternoon, when a world', record was established by the carrying of seven passengers for 17 minutes 35 secs.

...and, from the Wigton Advertiser, 25th October 1913
Probably the heaviest passenger ever carried in a flight ascended in a Grahame-White biplane, piloted by Mr. Louis Noel, at the London Aerodrome. Hendon. The passenger, Mrs. Emma Griffiths, wife of the vicar of Mathry, Pembrokeshire, weighed 19st. 10lb

The 'Sketch' magazine - 1913 had nothing but praise for her!!
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/952x1168/noelfatpaxcol_8234ff0a4405d082b507480657959dd251324997.jpg

[Asturias56]

Good god! Publishing a lady's WEIGHT!!! :eek:

I always thought it was terrible form to mention her AGE but no ever, ever, ever suggested weight ..................

[ATNotts]

She looks to be a formidable woman, judging by the look on Mr Noel's face she appears to have scared him rigid!!

I should add, a really interesting thread with some very fascinating links.

[meleagertoo]

I imagine it was the anticipated effect on his c of g that was worrying him.

"Eh! Alphonse! Ah zed ah wood tak a passagère mais zut alors, what eez zees?"

[FlightlessParrot]

Good god! Publishing a lady's WEIGHT!!! :eek:

I always thought it was terrible form to mention her AGE but no ever, ever, ever suggested weight ..................

Body positivity. And she'll smash anyone who makes an issue of it. And by the way, the collection at Matins was unsatisfactory last Sunday and she'll be taking the plate around herself next time. Or possibly she was a good sport.

[Asturias56]

Pretty brave for sure

[washoutt]

How many kilo's would 19/10 stone be?

[ATNotts]

How many kilo's would 19/10 stone be?

125kg!!

Amazingly in the UK most people still use the arcane stones and pounds measure to weigh themselves. I've been using kg for years now!

[longer ron]

125kg!!

Amazingly in the UK most people still use the arcane stones and pounds measure to weigh themselves. I've been using kg for years now!

Not Striccly true and a bit of an exaggeration there ATN,probably older people still use stones/pounds but those under a certain age will use Kg.
I am fairly old and am happy to use either unit - also it is not exactly difficult these days to do an instant google conversion of any unit of weight etc these days anyway ;)

[Self loading bear]

Good god! Publishing a lady's WEIGHT!!! :eek:

I always thought it was terrible form to mention her AGE but no ever, ever, ever suggested weight ..................

When you have to state a lady’s weight (or age) it IS good form to state a number which is clearly flattering the lady in question,

This is probably why Mr Noel is looking slightly worried.

[cavuman1]

Considering the potential aft of CG limitations imposed by the rather Reubenesque Emma Griffiths, Louis' first flight attempt with her might well have been the last Noel...

Hat, Coat, Aeroplane

- Ed

[Asturias56]

"Not Striccly true and a bit of an exaggeration there ATN,probably older people still use stones/pounds but those under a certain age will use Kg."

and of course the Rugby pages of The Times still uses stones. Weird

[washoutt]

so 19 stone equals 120 kg. 6.3 kg for a stone. What is the historical explanation for this weight? Anybody an idea? Is it the weight of a sack of flour from the miller or some such connection?

[Asturias56]

Encyclopedia Britannia:-

Stone, British unit of weight (https://www.britannica.com/science/weight) for dry products generally equivalent to 14 pounds avoirdupois (https://www.britannica.com/science/pound-unit-of-weight) (6.35 kg), though it varied from 4 to 32 pounds (1.814 to 14.515 kg) for various items over time. Originally any good-sized rock (https://www.britannica.com/science/rock-geology) chosen as a local standard, the stone came to be widely used as a unit of weight in trade, its value fluctuating with the commodity and region. In the 14th century England’s exportation of raw wool to Florence necessitated a fixed standard. In 1389 a royal statute fixed the stone of wool (https://www.britannica.com/topic/wool) at 14 pounds and the sack of wool at 26 stones. Trade stones of variant weights persist, such as the glass (https://www.britannica.com/technology/glass) stone of 5 pounds. The stone is still commonly used in Britain (https://www.britannica.com/place/United-Kingdom) to designate the weights of people and large animals.

[FlightlessParrot]

Let me see if I can remember the Imperial weights:
16 ounces = 1 pound (abbrev. 'lb', for Latin 'libra')
14 pounds = 1 stone (and I never knew why it was called that, thanks Asturias)
2 stone = 1 quarter
4 quarters = 1 hundredweight (which is, of course, 112 lb (pounds) but in early counting 'hundred' doesn't necessarily mean 10 x 10)
20 hundredweight = 1 tonne (2240 lb)

These all, of course, the avoirdupois system: as I never dealt with lumps of gold, I didn't learn the troy weights.

The hundredweight was the measure by which coal was sold retail, and I still remember the coalmen delivering it in hundredweight sacks over their shoulders. The US does not use Imperial measures, has (I think) no unit between the pound and the ton, and uses a smaller ton.

When I was a mixed infant, and then a primary boy, I did mental arithmetic in this stuff, as also in pounds, shillings, pence and farthings for currency.

I still find it not quite intuitive to think in terms of weight in kilos (far too many), personal height in metres, or fuel consumption in litres per 100 kilometres, but I have no regrets in the slightest about the adoption of the metric system in the various realms of Elizabeth R. Thanks to the early training in mental arithmetic in bizarre units, I can also calculate change in a way that baffles the young, though that too is a wasting skill. After we came out of our first lock-down, I went into a shop and decided to use a bundle of coins I'd accumulated. I put them on the counter and looked at them, and thought 'How does this work? Is that medium sized one worth 10 or 20?'

[oxenos]

20 hundredweight = 1 tonne (2240 lb)

In fact, 20 hundredweight = 2240 lb = 1 ton.

Tonne is, I think, used to mean 1000 kg = 2200 lb. i.e a metric ton(ne) (actually 2204.5 lb.)

Then there is the short ton, or US ton, which is 2000lb.

Simple really.

[FlightlessParrot]

In fact, 20 hundredweight = 2240 lb = 1 ton.

Tonne is, I think, used to mean 1000 kg = 2200 lb. i.e a metric ton(ne) (actually 2204.5 lb.)

Then there is the short ton, or US ton, which is 2000lb.

Simple really.
Damn, it was consciously in my mind to write 'ton' not 'tonne' so I went ahead and did the wrong thing. You are, of course, quite right.

[Fournierf5]

Damn, it was consciously in my mind to write 'ton' not 'tonne' so I went ahead and did the wrong thing. You are, of course, quite right.

Poor woman would be rolling in her grave if she could see how far 'off topic' this post has strayed whilst discussing her weight.
Not one single ounce of comment re the weight of the seven passengers Louis Noel carried earlier - presumably all MEN!

[washoutt]

Napoleon put the meter as the ten millionth part of the distance from the North Pole to the Equator, and hence the 1000th part of the cubic meter as the liter, which is 1 kg. Such a boring system, compared to your British ounces, pounds sterling, ton, tonne, stone. How sad, that we are now isolated from the British system....:O

[Allan Lupton]

The French didn't fully accept Napoleon's metrication in the 19th century: in my 1886 copy of Baedeker's Rhine it explains that, in that book, "Heights are given in English feet (1 Engl. Ft. = 0.3048 metre = 0.938 Parisian ft. = 0.971 Prussian ft)"
Each system subdivided the foot in twelve so the inch, Pouce and Zoll were in the same proportions.

[India Four Two]

ATNotts,

Last year, I produced a W&B chart for my club’s DG 1000S two-seat glider that had pilot weights in Kg. After multiple complaints, I’m having to produce a revised version with pilot weights in pounds.

In Canada, we’ve been metric since 1977 - that’s 44 years ago!