Virgin 3.1

[Paragraph377]

The Australian Securities and Investments Commission has reveal for the first time the full scale of the airline’s strife before it was rescued - a $3.1bn loss in the year ending June 30, 2020, and it is carrying an ongoing debt of $1.2 bn.

Under the leadership of Borghetti and then ‘Scuz’, the airline was dead in the water and COVID banged the final nail in its coffin. So as much as people hate Bain and Mrs Jayne, without the two of them there would be no Virgin Australia at all, and in turn there would literally be no pilots, cabin crew and other Human Resources that make an airline possible.

My fear is that with current rumours being that International flying won’t resume until 2022, and that is very possible considering this pandemic is now in its 16th month, what is the Government going to do to ensure all of our domestic airlines stay alive??

[kingRB]

what is the Government going to do to ensure all of our domestic airlines stay alive??

They're not worried about that - kick that can down the road, just like the budget - someone elses problem in the future. The current plan is keep city lockdowns going when they get 1 or 2 cases of covid

[PoppaJo]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/australianaviation.com.au/2021/05/twu-and-virgin-independent-pilots-association-confirm-merger/amp/

[greenslopes]

Virgin Australia chief executive Jayne Hrdlicka (https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/virgin-leases-new-planes-and-starts-hiring-20210415-p57jbv) says she’s prepared to wear the financial pain of ultra low airfares of $39 between key destinations like Sydney and Melbourne for an extended period to ensure passenger volumes rebuild.

“The pain of it for the first two or three, to get the next twenty-five, you know it works,” she said at a hotels conference in Adelaide on Thursday.

“We need to get the volume back in the industry,” she said.
https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_0.211%2C$multiply_0.5855%2C$ratio_1.776846%2C$width_10 59%2C$x_0%2C$y_0/t_crop_custom/e_sharpen:25%2Cq_85%2Cf_auto/f534006e6087b85bf97abaafd3216bc48e07e1c9Virgin CEO Jayne Hrdlicka with the backdrop of Adelaide Oval. Ben Searcy

“Whatever the price it’s going to take to get people back in the air that’s what we’re going to support for a while,” she told the AHICE conference.

But there would be a point where those extremely low fares ended, and fares costing $79, $99 or $115 became more prevalent.

[Anti Skid On]

They're not worried about that - kick that can down the road, just like the budget - someone elses problem in the future. The current plan is keep city lockdowns going when they get 1 or 2 cases of covid

Each to their own I suppose; I am just happy I am living in a country where public health is taken seriously and not somewhere like India. The bottom line is both NZ and Australia are both significantly better off than countries that didn't implement appropriate measures and had their economies destroyed. I've been out for dinner with the missus this evening, I can do that because of those measures, Try saying that in the USA, UK, mainland Europe, etc....

[Double_Clutch]

HR essential to running an airline.... bwahhhhaaaaa!

[Servo]

I'm sure she is happy selling $39 airfares when the majority of her pilots are on 50% pay, but expected to be available 100%.

Doesn't mention that in the article.

[havick]

Each to their own I suppose; I am just happy I am living in a country where public health is taken seriously and not somewhere like India. The bottom line is both NZ and Australia are both significantly better off than countries that didn't implement appropriate measures and had their economies destroyed. I've been out for dinner with the missus this evening, I can do that because of those measures, Try saying that in the USA, UK, mainland Europe, etc....

I’ve been out for dinner the entire time in the USA.

[KRUSTY 34]

I'm sure she is happy selling $39 airfares when the majority of her pilots are on 50% pay, but expected to be available 100%.

Doesn't mention that in the article.

I thought the pilots remain on their previous EBA T&C’s until such time they certify a new agreement?

[Servo]

I thought the pilots remain on their previous EBA T&C’s until such time they certify a new agreement?

Nope. Currently stood down, stood up, stood down again. Pilots gave her and exec team benefit of the doubt and helped with an MOU to allow flexibility during ramp up. The company keeps extending the MOU, which allows phases of pay. Most are on 50%.

[Wizofoz]

I’ve been out for dinner the entire time in the USA.

And 500 000+ of your countrymen are taking a dirt-nap as a result...

[On Guard]

Nope. Currently stood down, stood up, stood down again. Pilots gave her and exec team benefit of the doubt and helped with an MOU to allow flexibility during ramp up. The company keeps extending the MOU, which allows phases of pay. Most are on 50%.

I’d kill for that opportunity- Just to have a chance at reemployment. Appreciate what you have, there are many who have nothing. I got chopped and currently have no prospects for years despite 12 at Virgin. Working Min wage and going backwards.

[KRUSTY 34]

SERVO, I suppose there will come a time when the schedule will stabilize to a new norm. Once that occurs, as unpalatable as it may be, those on the bottom of the seniority list may have to face redundancy. If that doesn’t happen, then the practice of rolling stand ups/stand downs will only serve to severely disrupt the lives of all VA pilots.

Maybe that’s what management wants?

[Clipster]

I’m sorry to hear it On Guard. The pilots who lost their jobs at Virgin and Tiger deserved better. I know there’s a lot of hard luck stories in aviation at the moment and I really feel for all the pilots out of work.

[DanV2]

Speaking of former VA management. Former VA board member, former EY CEO and BFF of John Borghetti; James Hogan busted for violating mandatory quarantine in the UK.

https://simpleflying.com/etihad-ceo-uk-quarantine/

[Superman1]

What happened to all the A330 and B777 crew? Did they get let go when the fleet did or are they being dragged along?

[Agent_86]

What happened to all the A330 and B777 crew? Did they get let go when the fleet did or are they being dragged along?

Unfortunately they are all gawn AFIAK...

[1A_Please]

What happened to all the A330 and B777 crew? Did they get let go when the fleet did or are they being dragged along?
The A332s were all returned to lessors and the crews made redundant. Likewise for the 777 crew though I heard that it is possible for them to return to VA in the future if they are happy to join short-haul crew.

Of the 5 77Ws, one was leased (VH-VOZ) and this plane has been returned to lessor. The other 4 were owned and remain parked. I'm unsure who actually owns these planes now as they were encumbered so it is possible they are now owned by the banks that lent money to pre-administration VA and who took the 777s as security. Either way, the market for pre-owned 77Ws is dire so they probably won't be flying for anyone anytime soon.

[LostWanderer]

What happened to all the A330 and B777 crew? Did they get let go when the fleet did or are they being dragged along?

I believe someone made a post recently suggesting a number of these former 330/777 crew have been forced to head North looking for GA work in Darwin and out bush given there is not much hiring likely to be going on in this part of the world for the foreseeable future…
So if it is true or not I have no idea but do hope they find their way back to a job again soon.

There also appears to be one heck of a list of boys and girls trying to get back in the game from VANZ, Tiger and others unfortunately who all were shafted as well. I personally know a handful who haven’t touched a plane in a damn long time now, not for lack of trying their butts off.

[t_cas]

The wide body crews were fired out of seniority even though the shut down and administration affected the entire operation. It was a poisoned chalice. Filled with the promise (negotiated) of conditional return which is currently looking like being reneged by incumbent rulers.
18-20 year veterans of the company, unceremoniously shown the door. Not to diminish any other pilots situation, but these events have brought out some of the best in colleagues. It has also, unfortunately, reminded us of some of darkness residing in a small number of others…..
I certainly hope that cool heads prevail and the only whining we hear again, is that of turbines.

[PoppaJo]

I believe someone made a post recently suggesting a number of these former 330/777 crew have been forced to head North looking for GA work in Darwin and out bush given there is not much hiring likely to be going on in this part of the world for the foreseeable future…
So if it is true or not I have no idea but do hope they find their way back to a job again soon.

There also appears to be one heck of a list of boys and girls trying to get back in the game from VANZ, Tiger and others unfortunately who all were shafted as well. I personally know a handful who haven’t touched a plane in a damn long time now, not for lack of trying their butts off.
I know a GA operation in the Far North area that’s received 200 resumes in the last year. The trend is the same. VA/VANZ/TT/Expat.

The challenge many are facing from who I’ve spoken to is age, on each side of the seat, they acknowledge they might be waiting 5-7 years for something of substance. However they are now late 50s or cracked 60. The chances of getting hired are slim. The wife is looking at retirement not moving around again.

[DUXNUTZ]

I know a GA operation in the Far North area that’s received 200 resumes in the last year. The trend is the same. VA/VANZ/TT/Expat.

The challenge many are facing from who I’ve spoken to is age, on each side of the seat, they acknowledge they might be waiting 5-7 years for something of substance. However they are now late 50s or cracked 60. The chances of getting hired are slim. The wife is looking at retirement not moving around again.

Many good people out on the street. Recovery might be quicker than 5-7 years I’d think but still not an enviable position to be in. One would think 787s will be on the agenda again or ordered at outstanding rates whilst the market is depressed and prior to offloading of the business.

[slice]

Virgin have hung on to their Haneda slot with an extension to Oct 31st . They’ll have to either let it go or make some sort of commitment to utilise it if Japan becomes one of the travel bubbles. Interesting that the ACCC knocked back the QF / JAL alliance application. I do not know if it is permissible to have an alliance partner (ANA) operate your slot ?

[The Bunglerat]

Many good people out on the street. Recovery might be quicker than 5-7 years I’d think but still not an enviable position to be in. One would think 787s will be on the agenda again or ordered at outstanding rates whilst the market is depressed and prior to offloading of the business.

Hmmm... 787s...? This is the carrot that was dangled, to the effect of, "don't take it too hard, ladies and gents. We'll get brand spanking 787s in a few years and you can all have your old jobs back".

Yeah, right. Bain is as Bain does. I take it all with less than a grain of salt - and any of my former colleagues who think it'll play out as originally promised is delusional. And if it did, you can be sure it would be on T&Cs that would be akin to getting the royal pineapple treatment at every sign-on. I'm not holding my breath on 'ifs' or 'maybes' but playing the card I've been dealt. I've made my peace with the idea that my airline career is over. Whilst it's not how I planned or wanted things to go, if nothing else, at least it's pushed me to finally pursue a long-held goal of going Stateside, completing my FAA ATP and getting into a corporate jet job opportunity. As such, I've been luckier than some and I am already seeing light at the end of the tunnel. I have many friends and family in the US, so the wife and I have been quite happy to "escape" Dictator Dan's Demokratic People's Republic of Viktoria for the Land of the Free. That said, the most heart-breaking aspect for me - aside from seeing VA reduced to a shell of its former self - has been witnessing a wealth of industry experience lost, never to be shared again with the next group of up-and-comers. Yeah, we lost a lot of good soldiers this last year...

P.S. As a side-note, regarding an aforementioned 500,000 people in the US taking a "dirt nap", I think some perspective is in order. There's 330 million people over here. Covid is real. People have died. That's a tragedy. But for cryin' out loud, we're pilots! We, of all people, should understand the meaning of the words, 'risk management'. Simply being alive at all means accepting a certain amount of risk - and there's 1,001 things that can kill you every day, just by getting out of bed. Covid is only one more. So sure, you can "stay safe" and never go outside again until no-one dies anymore, or you can stop living in fear and get on with life. You know what... For a virus with a frickin' 99% recovery rate, I'll take my chances. Most Americans around me right now would agree - and I'm glad for it because frankly I was getting sick of being surrounded by 'Chicken Little' Aussies who were jumping at their own shadows. The genie's out of the bottle and we live in a Covid world. Meanwhile, it's time we stopped letting this virus dominate every aspect of our daily lives and conversations.

[LostWanderer]

Many good people out on the street. Recovery might be quicker than 5-7 years I’d think but still not an enviable position to be in. One would think 787s will be on the agenda again or ordered at outstanding rates whilst the market is depressed and prior to offloading of the business.

With the government announcing delays til mid 2022 for the borders to open up, and from the sounds of it that is a big ol' maybe as well, it is very difficult to believe VA or any Australian airline is currently getting too excited at the idea of ordering or leasing any new long haul jets with so many unknowns still in place.
More so, I suspect the days of heavily discounted shiny new jets is vanishing very quickly as the rest of the world opens up and people hit the skies again. Just look at the US, hundreds of jets parked and stored and within a matter of a month or so ALL of them are being brought out again as quickly as they can do it and virtually every airline is hiring again. I'm sure Europe and beyond won't be far behind if the trend follows suit.

[SHVC]

Has the U.S domestic market taken off again? good on them if it has, the world is putting us to shame.
They must lough loudly that we close a city over one case, gov said mid 2022 maybe for international. It would be nice if they told us what is changing in mid 2022 that is different now so we know where the goal line is.

[Colonel_Klink]

Has the U.S domestic market taken off again? good on them if it has, the world is putting us to shame.
They must lough loudly that we close a city over one case, gov said mid 2022 maybe for international. It would be nice if they told us what is changing in mid 2022 that is different now so we know where the goal line is.

Mate of mine in the US is saying that domestic US traffic is back near 2019 levels. Most of the major carriers are actively recruiting. United had in the order of a couple of hundred upgrades last month - keeping in mind that they had a significant number of Pilots who retired early during COVID.

The governments hint last night that the international borders won’t be opening until mid 2022 at best is a disgrace. As is the fact that there will be a delay between the borders opening and the population being fully immunised. We ought to be ashamed of the way the federal government has handled the vaccine rollout and the federal border closure - but alas these politicians with their populous nonsense are never held to any account.

[Global Aviator]

Has the U.S domestic market taken off again? good on them if it has, the world is putting us to shame.
They must lough loudly that we close a city over one case, gov said mid 2022 maybe for international. It would be nice if they told us what is changing in mid 2022 that is different now so we know where the goal line is.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1125x1003/2b2be111_8683_4d12_a943_027715606ff8_f350cd224a9975bc8127b92 4089d4616fa54509e.jpeg

[The Bunglerat]

Has the U.S domestic market taken off again? good on them if it has, the world is putting us to shame.
They must lough loudly that we close a city over one case

Yes, they are laughing. I'd long suspected, but never realised until I escaped (no joke, that's what it felt like) just what a leftard, socialist country Australia has become in recent years. Every time Dan the Man got in front of the cameras and told Melbourne that we were going into our umpteenth lockdown, I was astonished at the disproportionate number of people who not only thought that what he was doing was necessary, they were actually praising him for it! "Great job for keeping us safe, Dan! My career's gone down the toilet, I can't visit my kids and my mental health is becoming more questionable by the day - but hey, keep doing a great job!" :ugh:

America's messed up and has no shortage of its own problems, but at least there are enough people here (not all of them 'evil orange man' supporters either) that, when sleepy Joe and Kamala say they want to lock the whole country down, the response is, "get stuffed". I used to think Americans were crazy with their gun culture and other peculiarities, but I am becoming more and more sympathetic - even agreeable - with their ways. To them, nothing is worth sacrificing individual liberties and freedoms for - not even a virus with a 99% recovery rate. And if Australia's idea of keeping everyone safe in the future is to become a hermit nation and never let anyone go anywhere or do anything, personally I'd rather live dangerously. What's that line from the classic Midnight Oil hit...? "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".

Apologies for thread drift. By the way, I'm not interested in airline jobs in the US (been there done that), but whether it's major airlines, regionals or corporate, it seems like things are starting to get very busy here again - at least that's been my perspective from what I've seen so far.

[43Inches]

As a pilot you should be very worried about Covid 19 Infection. Early studies have found evidence that as high as 70% of infected individuals have recovered from the virus, but have been left with lasting damage to heart and lung tissue. How this will affect medicals in the future who knows. Asides from that, recovery rate is 98% recovered directly from Covid infection, this does not include lingering side effects from damage caused, just means you did not die directly from the virus. Some statistics to think of, Influenza killed 22,000 in the 2019-2020 US season, a big difference to the 500,000 deaths from Covid in one year. What this has to do with Virgin, I don't know, as it was stuffed well before Covid came along.

[chuboy]

I used to think Americans were crazy with their gun culture and other peculiarities, but I am becoming more and more sympathetic - even agreeable - with their ways. To them, nothing is worth sacrificing individual liberties and freedoms for - not even a virus with a 99% recovery rate. And if Australia's idea of keeping everyone safe in the future is to become a hermit nation and never let anyone go anywhere or do anything, personally I'd rather live dangerously. What's that line from the classic Midnight Oil hit...? "It's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees".


I'm always bemused to read pilots proclaiming that a contagious virus with only a 1% chance of killing you (that's a low estimate by the way) is odds worth living with. Meanwhile they pine for the days of old when quads ruled the airways, before unreliable twins with IFSD rates at least 200 times smaller than the covid mortality rate replaced them.

[TimmyTee]

Pilots + using the term "Leftards" seems to be a match made in heaven.

Is it this type of person who is drawn to the industry, or do they morph into a Sky News lover due to the job?

[kingRB]

As a pilot you should be very worried about Covid 19 Infection. Early studies have found evidence that as high as 70% of infected individuals have recovered from the virus, but have been left with lasting damage to heart and lung tissue. How this will affect medicals in the future who knows. Asides from that, recovery rate is 98% recovered directly from Covid infection, this does not include lingering side effects from damage caused, just means you did not die directly from the virus. Some statistics to think of, Influenza killed 22,000 in the 2019-2020 US season, a big difference to the 500,000 deaths from Covid in one year. What this has to do with Virgin, I don't know, as it was stuffed well before Covid came along.

not sure when covid alarmists and fear merchants are going to give up beating this drum....it's getting tiresome. There simply isn't the data to back these claims up - and hence no serious studies have been or are being conducted as a result, because it's no different to lasting effects very small percentages get
from influenza. How will it affect medicals? No different to any other respiratory illness you may or may not contract. But sure, keep trying to perpetuate the Covid boogeyman of uncertainty.

Covid has ravaged people with compromised immune systems and obesity. No surprise, there was a hell of a lot of those in the US that make up those death statistics. Live healthy, don't be a fat pig, take the vaccine if you are in a risk category and move on with your life. The rest of the world is not going to sit around like this for the next 10 years like you covid alarmists want to.

[chuboy]

Covid has ravaged people with compromised immune systems and obesity. No surprise, there was a hell of a lot of those in the US that make up those death statistics. Live healthy, don't be a fat pig, take the vaccine if you are in a risk category and move on with your life. The rest of the world is not going to sit around like this for the next 10 years like you covid alarmists want to.
I have not yet been able to get a vaccine even though I want to. Are you suggesting that the government should nevertheless open the borders and allow covid to freely circulate in a country where it is being effectively confined to quarantine hotels?

[43Inches]

not sure when covid alarmists and fear merchants are going to give up beating this drum....it's getting tiresome. There simply isn't the data to back these claims up - and hence no serious studies have been or are being conducted as a result, because it's no different to lasting effects very small percentages get
from influenza. How will it affect medicals? No different to any other respiratory illness you may or may not contract. But sure, keep trying to perpetuate the Covid boogeyman of uncertainty.


If you ignore the actual studies being completed, otherwise you would know even why its worse. Covid causes coagulation and clotting in capillaries, this in turn causes inflammation of the heart, which has been found present in up to 60% of patients months after recovery. Not sure what respiratory diseases you are comparing it to as there are many varied types that have complications worse or milder, but not the infection rate we see with Covid. Knowing nurses that have caught Covid in Australia, have lasting lung problems 6 months after the infection due to damage caused, and cant carry out normal daily activities as a result. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the actual science go ahead.

[kingRB]

If you ignore the actual studies being completed, otherwise you would know even why its worse. Covid causes coagulation and clotting in capillaries, this in turn causes inflammation of the heart, which has been found present in up to 60% of patients months after recovery. Not sure what respiratory diseases you are comparing it to as there are many varied types that have complications worse or milder, but not the infection rate we see with Covid. Knowing nurses that have caught Covid in Australia, have lasting lung problems 6 months after the infection due to damage caused, and cant carry out normal daily activities as a result. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the actual science go ahead.

if it was of any concern we would have millions and millions of people all around the world totally debilitated by their covid recovery. We don't. That's why there is no serious concerns or urgency to study it. Very small proportions of people will have lasting ongoing issues, just like serious influenza cases. Sorry, nothing unique about Covid.

[greenslopes]

if it was of any concern we would have millions and millions of people all around the world totally debilitated by their covid recovery. We don't. That's why there is no serious concerns or urgency to study it. Very small proportions of people will have lasting ongoing issues, just like serious influenza cases. Sorry, nothing unique about Covid.

Low incidence of cases means not a lot of data here(AU), however there are a growing number of studies worldwide which indicate the long term side effects of COVID are greater than first believed.
The ADAPT study, carried out by researchers at St Vincent’s Hospital and the Kirby Institute, revealed around one-third of participants were still experiencing health problems 240 days (around eight months) later. It also found one in five still felt unwell after eight months.

[Paragraph377]

Low incidence of cases means not a lot of data here(AU), however there are a growing number of studies worldwide which indicate the long term side effects of COVID are greater than first believed.
The ADAPT study, carried out by researchers at St Vincent’s Hospital and the Kirby Institute, revealed around one-third of participants were still experiencing health problems 240 days (around eight months) later. It also found one in five still felt unwell after eight months.
Perhaps COVID is morphing into a super killer and in 5 years time we all be dead? At least CASA will happy that they no longer have to regulate such an evil industry.

[patty50]

Low incidence of cases means not a lot of data here(AU), however there are a growing number of studies worldwide which indicate the long term side effects of COVID are greater than first believed.
The ADAPT study, carried out by researchers at St Vincent’s Hospital and the Kirby Institute, revealed around one-third of participants were still experiencing health problems 240 days (around eight months) later. It also found one in five still felt unwell after eight months.

Didn’t they pump out a study finding most long COVID sufferers are negative for antibodies and never had a positive test?
The symptoms seem to pretty vague, brain fog and malaise can be caused by depression or just feeling sorry for yourself.
Plenty of US athletes have gotten it, would be interesting to see if they have any performance change.

[minigundiplomat]

That’s the COVID paradox. The longer we look up each morning and see the sky hasn’t fallen in, the more Chicken Little’s run around telling us it’s just about to.

[chuboy]

Didn’t they pump out a study finding most long COVID sufferers are negative for antibodies and never had a positive test?
The symptoms seem to pretty vague, brain fog and malaise can be caused by depression or just feeling sorry for yourself.
Plenty of US athletes have gotten it, would be interesting to see if they have any performance change.
Antibody tests are not 100% accurate. You can get false positives and false negatives even when they are used at the optimal time.

There is also a case report published of two patients (of 300 odd) who had COVID infection confirmed at the time using PCR, but who never developed antibodies that could be detected using an antibody test.

The point is, don't take anything for granted. The virus didn't exist at all 18 months ago, and in that time mutations are also changing the way it might impact the body.

[43Inches]

if it was of any concern we would have millions and millions of people all around the world totally debilitated by their covid recovery. We don't. That's why there is no serious concerns or urgency to study it. Very small proportions of people will have lasting ongoing issues, just like serious influenza cases. Sorry, nothing unique about Covid.

I think there is a misunderstanding about what is meant by long term issues. Heart muscle damage is mostly irreversible, but small damage at a young age, you will most likely not even notice it. Most of us do not use our heart to its maximum capacity in normal life unless you do very vigorous gym routines or are an athlete. As you age the small amounts of damage add up as your maximum output comes closer to your daily activities needs, this is why older pilots require stress tests, and that sadly may be the first time you find out your heart is in bad shape and your medical is pulled. Don't confuse actual heart muscle damage with coronary artery blockage, that can be fixed via stent or grafts, that's just fixing the fuel lines to the heart, if the heart muscle is damaged by the lack of blood then you lose heart capacity and generally don't get it back. Lung damage can be reversed in some cases, you can chop out a large chunk of lung and it grows back, unlike the heart, which damage can be counteracted with making other parts of the heart work harder/more efficiently, but not reversed. Yes bad cases of the flu can cause similar damage, just due to the body being over-stressed, but this heart inflammation is being found in even mild cases of covid, and asymptomatic patients.

[TimmyTee]

Maybe Ruperts Rags don’t cover it, but unbiased news sources continually present articles about people suffering from long Covid.
as 43inches mentioned, there seems to be a complete misunderstanding to what this actually entails.

[slice]

Back to Virgin, are any flight crew still completely stood down ?

[No Idea Either]

No, all pilots now stood up to 75 % for the next roster and even a few lucky FO’s on 100%............go figure.

but it could all change if another ‘catastrophic’ border closure happens

[Double_Clutch]

I believe they are being keep below 100% due to continued lack of Cabin Crew

[DanV2]

Slightly OT, but former VA part-owner SQ has started selling off and leasing back their A350s and 787s after their recently announced losses. The name of the lessors were included in the media release.

https://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/sg/media-centre/press-release/article/?q=en_UK/2021/April-June/ne1121-210503

[Foxxster]

Slightly OT, but former VA part-owner SQ has started selling off and leasing back their A350s and 787s after their recently announced losses. The name of the lessors were included in the media release.

https://www.singaporeair.com/en_UK/sg/media-centre/press-release/article/?q=en_UK/2021/April-June/ne1121-210503


interesting to compare and contrast the CEO of Singapore Ailines versus Qantas…. Just one example.

[Agent_86]

due to continued lack of Cabin Crew

Desperate lack of CC at present. Most are being called and messaged several times by Crewing on both their OPT and DDO's

Max.

[PoppaJo]

Is there not hundreds of 737 rated Tiger CC they could make an offer to and get online pretty quick smart?

[mates rates]

I think the problem is a lack of qualified trainers to run training courses.Remember they were very happy to get rid of staff in the beginning.They didn’t care about the experience level of people going out the door.😆

[Servo]

Is there not hundreds of 737 rated Tiger CC they could make an offer to and get online pretty quick smart?

Already have some of them online and coming online now PoppaJo. Good for them, I suppose.

[Colonel_Klink]

Maybe Ruperts Rags don’t cover it, but unbiased news sources continually present articles about people suffering from long Covid.
as 43inches mentioned, there seems to be a complete misunderstanding to what this actually entails.

How many of those were fully vaccinated? Because that’s the issue isn’t it - get the population vaccinated, almost eliminates the chance of people getting seriously sick from Covid, significantly reduces transmission of the disease and then things (like international borders) can return to normal.

[Koalatiger]

They're not worried about that - kick that can down the road, just like the budget - someone elses problem in the future. The current plan is keep city lockdowns going when they get 1 or 2 cases of covid

Australia in a nutshell...overreacting and over-regulating everything...

[ozbiggles]

Yeah! Why can’t we be more like India, the USA, UK, Europe

[whatever6719]

Wish there was a “like” button in this forum

[chookcooker]

Yeah! Why can’t we be more like India, the USA, UK, Europe

False dichotomy

[Lookleft]

So much for JH much lauded experience in managing a loco. Its always the same problem. To make money you need planes flying, to make planes fly with pax you need ground,crew, engineering crew, cabin crew, and tech crew. Each one of those categories needs to be trained on the planes that make you money and that training costs money and takes time. Management usually stop thinking at the first statement. If JH was indeed the saviour of Virgin then you would think that she would understand the rest but the reality is she doesn't.

[Arthur D]

I believe they are being keep below 100% due to continued lack of Cabin Crew

As an industry, we are reaping what we have sewed.

Once upon a time this position was revered. When you employ check out chicks and pay peanuts guess what you get........

[Lookleft]

Once upon a time this position was revered. When you employ check out chicks and pay peanuts guess what you get.....
At J* they are short of cc because the good people at the Victorian Department of Justice employed a lot of experienced cabin managers to run their hotel quarantine. Better money and lifestyle was the reason they left and have stayed away.

[ScepticalOptomist]

How many of those were fully vaccinated? Because that’s the issue isn’t it - get the population vaccinated, almost eliminates the chance of people getting seriously sick from Covid, significantly reduces transmission of the disease and then things (like international borders) can return to normal.

Its a simple strategy! Why can’t we in Oz get our acts in order to accomplish this? The ultimate nanny state should be easy to vaccinate!

[ANstar]

At J* they are short of cc because the good people at the Victorian Department of Justice employed a lot of experienced cabin managers to run their hotel quarantine. Better money and lifestyle was the reason they left and have stayed away.
Hotel quarantine isn't a long term prospective so it's a bit short sighted to give up a perm job for a contract.

[Lookleft]

Hotel quarantine isn't a long term prospective so it's a bit short sighted to give up a perm job for a contract

That shows you just how crap the job of F/A is.

[TimmyTee]

Its a simple strategy! Why can’t we in Oz get our acts in order to accomplish this? The ultimate nanny state should be easy to vaccinate!

Big part of it is that our whack job/conspiracy % of the population matches only that of the US.
QLD are already finding that they’re vaccinated everyone over 50 in some parts of FNQ who want to get vaccinated, and it’s sitting waay below 50% of that portion of the population...
These are the same oldies the rest of us have been disproportionately affected by, to protect them up until this point in time.

Time to give the way more vulnerable boomers an ultimatum before we just open up and they roll the dice.

[t_cas]

Big part of it is that our whack job/conspiracy % of the population matches only that of the US.
QLD are already finding that they’re vaccinated everyone over 50 in some parts of FNQ who want to get vaccinated, and it’s sitting waay below 50% of that portion of the population...
These are the same oldies the rest of us have been disproportionately affected by, to protect them up until this point in time.

Time to give the way more vulnerable boomers an ultimatum before we just open up and they roll the dice.

Your assessment is bull****.

[PoppaJo]

Hotel quarantine isn't a long term prospective so it's a bit short sighted to give up a perm job for a contract.

Some have taken full time perm contracts in the Public service. Nothing to do with HQ. Many Departments have taken on staff.

70-80k, good promotional opportunities, day hours and a stable job.

[t_cas]

Some have taken full time perm contracts in the Public service. Nothing to do with HQ. Many Depts have taken on staff.

70-80k, good promotional opportunities, day hours and a stable job.


The “Like” button.

[Paragraph377]

Is that a serious comment - $70k to $80k ?? That is absolutely **** money. Who gets out of bed for that kind of money??

[PoppaJo]

Entry level jobs in various departments start around that number.

CC wages have never been sky high. Promotional opportunities are quite limited. A extra 20-30k a year just off the bat would be quite helpful to some. 6 figures would be in reach after a few years.

Who gets out of bed for that kind of money??
I got half that for the first 10 years in GA. Some years later I now earn 8 times my GA wage today. Gotta start somewhere!

[Lookleft]

Is that a serious comment - $70k to $80k ?? That is absolutely **** money. Who gets out of bed for that kind of money??

This is from the ABS:
Estimates for average weekly ordinary time earnings for full-time adults (seasonally adjusted):

Increased by 3.2% to $1,711.60 annually to November 2020.
Males: $1,970.90 (public), and $1,770.30 (private).
Females: $1,762.00 (public), and $1,475.50 (private).

This is from Stats NZ:

Comparing the June 2020 quarter with the June 2019 quarter, the median weekly income:

from all sources decreased $54 (7.6 percent) to $652
from wages and salaries increased $44 (4.3 percent) to $1,060
from government transfers increased $23 (6.7 percent) to $364
for self-employed people decreased $96 (12.5 percent) to $671.
The median hourly income from wages and salaries increased $1.47 (5.8 percent) to $27.00

You do the maths to work out the annual salary- if you can be bothered getting out of bed.

[Paragraph377]

This is from the ABS:

This is from Stats NZ:
You do the maths to work out the annual salary- if you can be bothered getting out of bed.

Correct, I couldn’t be bothered to get out of bed to research posted statistical mathematical drivel provided by a prime Troll. NZ stats, AUS stats, Zimbabwean stats, yada yada yada. I’ve contributed plenty to the aviation industry and continue to do so, but I have enough wealth built up to allow me to sleep as long as I like. But you go right ahead and keep comparing those salary statistics Looky, you never know, one day you might crack your low paid salary cap!

[KRUSTY 34]

Is that a serious comment - $70k to $80k ?? That is absolutely **** money. Who gets out of bed for that kind of money??

While I think I know where you’re coming from mate, there a hundreds if not thousands of former Airline Pilots who are now getting out of bed for even less.

If you’ve been fortunate or even prudent enough to secure a good retirement from your career, then more power to you.

[Paragraph377]

While I think I know where you’re coming from mate, there a hundreds if not thousands of former Airline Pilots who are now getting out of bed for even less.

If you’ve been fortunate or even prudent enough to secure a good retirement from your career, then more power to you.
I hear you Krusty. It was once a respected career choice, to be an airline pilot. But the days of corporate greed, CEO greed and shareholder demands has created an imbalance. Once upon a time an airline could make good money and pay good remuneration for a Pilot, all this at the same time. The two worked hand in hand, almost in a symbiotic relationship, but not anymore. The pendulum has swung away from beneficial pilot/employer relationships to a relationship of distrust and disrespect on both sides. I don’t know if or how this can or will be ever returned. Airline executives need to understand the skills a Pilot and an Engineer (and other good folk) have and treat them as professionals who have spent lots of money and lots of years becoming a necessary and valuable tool in their organisation. Pilots, Engineers and others need to understand a CEO/Board role and how without money and profits there will be no airline. Whoever can solve that conundrum and successfully market it in todays environment will probably become wealthier than that parasite Bill Gates.

[DBMeridien]

I would think DL are an exception to the greedy company takes all and f*&k the front line people, professional pilots and CC.

[Agent_86]

$70k to $80k ?? That is absolutely **** money

Still better than a F/A Wage :ok:

[ozbiggles]

Back to Virgin

https://www.smh.com.au/national/virgin-ceo-calls-for-open-borders-even-if-some-people-may-die-20210517-p57sn2.html

Interesting comment from someone who was complaining that the last company she dealt with didn't have feelings for a vulnerable family member close to her.

[Global Aviator]

Kudos to a CEO not being afraid to say vaccinate the population and open the borders.

[Agent_86]

Back to Virgin

https://www.smh.com.au/national/virgin-ceo-calls-for-open-borders-even-if-some-people-may-die-20210517-p57sn2.html

Interesting comment from someone who was complaining that the last company she dealt with didn't have feelings for a vulnerable family member close to her.

Australian Aviation's regurgitation of the SMH article too... Virgin CEO says Australia must open sooner even if ‘some people die’ – Australian Aviation (https://australianaviation.com.au/2021/05/virgin-ceo-says-australia-must-open-sooner-even-if-some-people-die/?utm_source=AustralianAviation&utm_campaign=17_05_2021&utm_medium=email&utm_content=1&utm_emailID=a7e827dff9487879dd0441b5c11274f86bdf52b7986b3e63 8a9c97d6b4a8da42)

[SHVC]

Kudos to a CEO not being afraid to say vaccinate the population and open the borders.

But if AJ made those comments he would be crucified. Its ok that JH does tho.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Virgin Australia’s chief executive has called for the country’s borders to be reopened before the stated goal of mid-2022, saying it made long-term sense even if “some people may die”.

Big business safety culture, makes me wonder what other risks she is willing to take in the name of profits.

[cbradio]

But if AJ made those comments he would be crucified. Its ok that JH does tho.

She is being crucified too!!

[Ollie Onion]

This is JH through and through, when at Jetstar she always gave me the impression she was willing to sacrifice anyone else to achieve her own goals.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

She is being crucified too!!


Give me a break!

Only a Fvcking psycho willingly condemns another human to death in the name of profits.

[Global Aviator]

But if AJ made those comments he would be crucified. Its ok that JH does tho.

I would also say Kudos to AJ.

the Aussie population needs to wake up and get vaccinated.

I bet many others want to say it but don’t have the kajones.

[Lead Balloon]

I look forward to the government announcing, on advice from medical experts, prohibition of alcohol and tobacco, given the numbers of deaths they cause. Let's throw in driving, fishing from rocks - actually, fishing generally, swimming in the sea or rivers or anything involving a risk of death. There goes flying... Gambling causes enormous indirect damage. Let's prohibit that, too.

Politicians aren't 'allowed' to say it, but societies put a price on a life all day, every day, and tolerate death tolls in return for benefits - sometimes just in plain old tawdry dollars.

The road toll could be eliminated overnight, by prohibiting the use of the road system. We all know why that doesn't happen but, apparently, politicians aren't allowed to say that the benefits of an operating road system far outweigh the costs of the road toll.

Until words and numbers are put to how much we are willing to pay - not just in dollars - in return for saving X lives to C-19, the 'plan' is to wake up each day and make it up. I think that's what we call 'leadership' these days.

[Paragraph377]

I would also say Kudos to AJ.

the Aussie population needs to wake up and get vaccinated.

I bet many others want to say it but don’t have the kajones.I couldn’t agree more. We are now 16 months in and what do we have;

still closed and semi-closed borders
still a decimated global economy
still COVID infected people around the Country
99% of people fully recover
vaccines that don’t fully protect you anyway
less than 1% of the words population affected
numerous doctors and medical experts now saying ‘let the virus run its course’
we have a virus that is not going to disappear no matter what we do
countries and states applying different rules and measures with no consistency whatsoever with governments making **** up on the run.

Due to the lockdowns and restrictions cancers have gone undetected, suicide rates are up, debt has increased, businesses have gone broke, people are unemployed and society has been badly damaged. That is not because of COVID, it is because of the knee jerk reaction to COVID by governments who panicked. The old saying of the ‘cure being worse than the disease’ comes to mind.

Where are the TV and media campaigns that could be applied to both COVID and the flu?? Things that remind you to stay home and away from shops, schools, work and large gatherings if you are sick? Wash your hands and wear a mask publicly if you are sick and you need to exit your home (the Japanese have done this for many decades and have set the bar). Get vaccinated with a proven and effective vaccine that has been thoroughly researched and works in the high percentages! Basic stuff but it contributes to reducing the virus. A new approach needs to be considered sooner than later and that approach needs to be pushed by a country or states citizens because if you leave it with the government to mitigate this issue our futures are going to be even more miserable.

[ozbiggles]

Yep, Brazil didn't have a knee jerk reaction...they are going great guns in terms of their economy and death rate as it turns out.

[Ascend Charlie]

Oz would have the lowest infection rate per 1000 population, and the lowest death rate from those infected. That is good.

The covid precautions of hand cleaning and social distancing mean that nobody I know has even had a flu, cold or sniffle since March last year. That is good.

Yes, it has been hard on the people, but how much of that was electioneering from the state premiers? Screams to open the QLD border to anybody north of Coffs (there were no reported cases north of Coffs) were met by "I will not be bullied by those Liberal people!" and she turned away people who were 4 km from the nearest hospital in Qld and made them travel hours to get to the next best emergency room. Cafes and restaurants could have been opened way earlier. Border guards sent home. But no. A state election was looming.

[Pearly White]

JH comments now being seen as a PR nightmare by the advertising and PR industry: https://www.bandt.com.au/some-people-may-die-virgin-australia-suffers-pr-nightmare-following-ceos-controversial-comments/

[PoppaJo]

Going a little wild on Twitter at the moment. Many are calling for her resignation. She copped at absolute belting at the Oz Open speech so I guess she’s used to this sort of stuff.

Not much she can say to backtrack. She’s stuck with this one for the moment.

[zanthrus]

She may be unlikabke etc but shes not wrong. Australia needs to suck it up and learn to live with it.
However no way will I consider any of the current vaccines avilable in Oz. Risker than the disease IMHO.
Its just a flu.

[SHVC]

It maybe just the flu to you, however more qualified ppl than you are treating it differently.

JH just had a trump moment, said what she was thinking which happens to be true and ppl just don't want to hear it because its not politically correct to be truthful

[ANstar]

If she is willing to let people die.. imagine how she will treat her own employees!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/hrdlicka-not-callous-flight-centre-boss/news-story/5ff3ea3cc9766de3410093b7f956ce28

Flight Centre CEO is on board with Jayne.

[cloudsurfng]

Welcome to Australia, the capital of outrage.

[TBM-Legend]

If she is willing to let people die.. imagine how she will treat her own employees!


VA = Virus Airlines guaranteed to get you there dead or alive! That's "keeping the air fair...."

[SOPS]

It is like the French Revolution.. let them eat cake.

I earn millions.. if a few of the unwashed die.: as long as my bonus is ok .. let a few bodies mount up,, but keep my bonus coming in.

[The Bunglerat]

I'm no fan of JH, but in this instance she's not wrong. Covid has exposed Australia as a hermit nation, populated by a disproportionate number of sissies who jump at their own shadows. What the hell is wrong with you people...?!? Previous generations lived with all manner of viruses and debilitating - even fatal - diseases for which there were no vaccines or cure. They didn't curl up in a foetal position and retreat to their designated safe space, they accepted that risk is a part of life and got on with living.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1509/lets_stay_inside_9cbc94ba1ffee65276cdb5bd71ca05733f3f934b.jp eg

[minigundiplomat]

Death and taxes.

People die, its a fact of life. None of us are living forever despite the best intentions of the medical profession. Get vaccinated, open the borders - stop dicking about like Australia is some kind of utopia of immortality. A bloke got pulled out of his boat and eaten by a crocodile near here recently. I haven't seen premiers banning boats or crocodiles yet.

[SHVC]

JH comments are all beginning to make sense. Its interesting when one has skin in the game and how they have reacted to closed borders domestically and internationally. As pilots we want domestic to remain open, JH wants international at any cost even if "some people may die" JH skin in the game is now 42.4m incentive scheme to get VA profitable.
To think she was not going to draw a pay check until June or July this yr. I have not posted the full story, I'm sure you have all read it this morning.Virgin boss Jayne Hrdlicka and top execs issued share bonus days before COVID death commentshttps://media.theaustralian.com.au/authors/images/https://media.theaustralian.com.au/authors/images/bio/christine_lacy.pnghttps://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/14ef506f7a2e50088efbc1b170e17963?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/14ef506f7a2e50088efbc1b170e17963)Virgin Australia CEO Jayne Hrdlicka. Picture: Supplied ,
https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/news/v3/authors/?byline=Melissa%2520Yeo&esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget-v3&td_bio=false&td_byline=Melissa%2520Yeo&td_location=noneChristine Lacy (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Christine+Lacy)
Senior reporter, Margin Call columnist
https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/news/v3/authors/?byline=Christine%2520Lacy&esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget-v3&td_bio=false&td_byline=Christine%2520Lacy&td_location=noneVirgin Australia boss Jayne Hrdlicka’s plea for the Morrison government to quickly open Australia’s borders — despite the fact that “some people may die” from coronavirus (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/some-may-die-but-border-must-open-says-virgin-chief-jayne-hrdlicka/news-story/765d00070278947cca2b72821d1903f2)— has come just days after Hrdlicka and her executive team were issued shares in the resurrected airline with a face value of $42.4m.

Company documents seen by Margin Call reveal that Virgin Australia’s new owner, international private equity giant Bain Capital, last week issued Hrdlicka and her executive team 42.4 million shares fully paid to $1 each as part of an incentive scheme to drive the airline’s financial performance.

[The Butcher's Dog]

Truth or not - what a "no win" comment, what positive spin could you possibly make from this. For those supportive of that kind of thinking and logic, there could be no explaining the reasons that would make this an unacceptable path. Such a Soylent Green revelation....................

[Paragraph377]

I'm no fan of JH, but in this instance she's not wrong. Covid has exposed Australia as a hermit nation, populated by a disproportionate number of sissies who jump at their own shadows. What the hell is wrong with you people...?!? Previous generations lived with all manner of viruses and debilitating - even fatal - diseases for which there were no vaccines or cure. They didn't curl up in a foetal position and retreat to their designated safe space, they accepted that risk is a part of life and got on with living.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1509/lets_stay_inside_9cbc94ba1ffee65276cdb5bd71ca05733f3f934b.jp eg

10/10 comment. You also score an A+

[Agent_86]

VA launch new program to win back 'Guests' - https://chaser.com.au/national/virgin-launch-new-frequent-dier-programme/

[machtuk]

I'm no fan of JH, but in this instance she's not wrong. Covid has exposed Australia as a hermit nation, populated by a disproportionate number of sissies who jump at their own shadows. What the hell is wrong with you people...?!? Previous generations lived with all manner of viruses and debilitating - even fatal - diseases for which there were no vaccines or cure. They didn't curl up in a foetal position and retreat to their designated safe space, they accepted that risk is a part of life and got on with living.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x1509/lets_stay_inside_9cbc94ba1ffee65276cdb5bd71ca05733f3f934b.jp eg

This is probably the best thing I've read during this whole Covid bull**** debarcle!

[Paragraph377]

Truth or not - what a "no win" comment, what positive spin could you possibly make from this. For those supportive of that kind of thinking and logic, there could be no explaining the reasons that would make this an unacceptable path. Such a Soylent Green revelation....................

10/10 comment. You score an A+

[43Inches]

Yep, a great comment for an "airline boss" to make. Not the industry to highlight you are willing to sacrifice peoples lives for profit, now, how many planes are you willing to lose whilst reducing maintenance or training costs? 1%-5% this is your acceptable loss rate it sounds like. So I'll have up to a 1:20 chance of my plane crashing if I fly Virgin? Does not sound as appealing when you relate it to air travel does it.

[chuboy]

Shame to see so many transport pilots in this thread who are averse to "risk aversion". I hope your gung-ho mentality is confined to armchair commentating about infectious disease epidemiology and other matters about which you know very little, and not to your decision making on the flight deck :suspect:

[timbo1]

I am reminded of the line in Shrek from Lord Farquaad - Some of you may die - but its a sacrifice I am prepared to make - apparently for the sake of my bonus

[Paragraph377]

Shame to see so many transport pilots in this thread who are averse to "risk aversion". I hope your gung-ho mentality is confined to armchair commentating about infectious disease epidemiology and other matters about which you know very little, and not to your decision making on the flight deck :suspect:
And you are an epidemiologist who knows better than the ‘armchair commentators’? The argument swings both ways. Should pilots be making flight deck decisions during the flu season when around 500,000 die annually and around 3 to 5 million catch it? What about a pilot who is undergoing personal stress or anxiety, how do you measure that data? Seriously, hardly anyone is denying the existence of COVID, the deaths, and the short and long term side effects. And nobody is saying a Pilot should still fly if and while affected, but to keep locking down states and countries is a complete joke. Should commercial aircraft in general be banned? After all, they are not ‘green and environmentally friendly’ and around 2.4% of global CO2 emissions come from aviation. Together with other gases and aircraft water vapour trails the industry is responsible for 5% of global warming.

And for the record, third world countries and/or despotic countries are always going to have higher percentage rates with any disease due to these reasons - no food, no water, no shelter, no medicine and/or being held to ransom by incompetent corrupt political readers. And some of those countries have a billion citizens so the numbers will be higher. Again, 99% of infected people recover. Destroying the global economy is not worth the price.

[chookcooker]

And 99% of that 1% that would have died will now live once vaccinated.

[Ollie Onion]

That is a serious amount of cash (Shares) the new executive team have taken out of the business. These CEO’s are just one big scam.

[Lead Balloon]

So if we vaccinate, and keep vaccinated, our most vulnerable, complete the vaccination program for the rest and continue with sensible (proven) mitigation and containment practices, what are the downsides of opening our borders and why do those downsides outweigh the upsides? (And please, Soylent Green and other analogies are scaremongering irrelevancies.)

[Lookleft]

This is probably why Virgin went belly up in the first place. Some were trying to focus on the airline but the majority were focused on useless discussions and irrelevant diversions.

[43Inches]

So if we vaccinate, and keep vaccinated, our most vulnerable, complete the vaccination program for the rest and continue with sensible (proven) mitigation and containment practices, what are the downsides of opening our borders and why do those downsides outweigh the upsides? (And please, Soylent Green and other analogies are scaremongering irrelevancies.)

First and foremost, we are in the enviable position to be able to wait and watch how the vaccine takes in other countries, like the UK. If case numbers resume growth exponentially then the vaccine is bogus and was a waste of time. We have to remember when you say this is for profits, who pays for the thousands of hospital beds and intubated patients. Its not "free" care, we are going to pay for that in taxes and medicare levies etc etc. Just so some airlines and businesses catering for international students and tourists can make some cash. The domestic market is pretty much back to normal, mining more or less unaffected (by covid that is). This argument is just selfish, 1% is not an insignificant number, its 1 in 100, list the things you do daily that have a 1 in 100 chance of dieing, I can't think of any. For interest sake, flu mortality rate is about 0.05%, but even this is considered a high figure as a lot of cases are not diagnosed, where as the testing for covid is so high we catch a vast number of cases so have good baseline knowledge of actual average mortality rates, being between 1 and 5% depending on genetics, age distribution, healthcare etc.

Again if someone said to you, that if you chose to catch a flight it had a 1 in 100 chance of crashing, would you use air travel?

[ozbiggles]

I have never seen so many pilots in support of a CEO in all my time!

[minigundiplomat]

First and foremost, we are in the enviable position to be able to wait and watch how the vaccine takes in other countries, like the UK. If case numbers continue to grow exponentially then the vaccine is bogus and was a waste of time. We have to remember when you say this is for profits, who pays for the thousands of hospital beds and intubated patients. Its not "free" care, we are going to pay for that in taxes and medicare levies etc etc. Just so some airlines and businesses catering for international students and tourists can make some cash. The domestic market is pretty much back to normal, mining more or less unaffected (by covid that is). This argument is just selfish, 1% is not an insignificant number, its 1 in 100, list the things you do daily that have a 1 in 100 chance of dieing, I can't think of any. For interest sake, flu mortality rate is about 0.05%, but even this is considered a high figure as a lot of cases are not diagnosed, where as the testing for covid is so high we catch a vast number of cases so have good baseline knowledge of actual average mortality rates, being between 1 and 5% depending on genetics, age distribution, healthcare etc.

Again if someone said to you, that if you chose to catch a flight it had a 1 in 100 chance of crashing, would you use air travel?

Stop being such a whiny biatch and grow a pair.

You have a 100% chance of dying at some point, an about 1% chance of it being from the 'Killer Pandemic'; that's less than cancer or heart disease and about on par with croaking in a vehicle accident. I am assuming you're a pilot, and have had to manage risk at some point? Do the same here.

You say 'study what happens in the UK' - I'll tell you what the results are - cases and fatalities are coming down exponentially and there is no evidence that the media mutants beat vaccines. The UK is opening up and booking their overseas holidays.

Vaccinate the vulnerable first, and then everyone else. Borders can open at a suitable point in that process, and we can risk manage from there. Stop pretending you can hide on Magic Island forever, and nobody will die of anything.

[chookcooker]

First and foremost, we are in the enviable position to be able to wait and watch how the vaccine takes in other countries, like the UK. If case numbers continue to grow exponentially then the vaccine is bogus and was a waste of time.


Continue to grow exponentially?? WTF are you on about?? Let’s look at the UK:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/


hmmmm plummeting case numbers.

how about Israel?

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/


wow, almost completely eradicated thanks to vax.

Exponential negative growth perhaps.

[43Inches]

You have a 100% chance of dying at some point, an about 1% chance of it being from the 'Killer Pandemic'; that's less than cancer or heart disease and about on par with croaking in a vehicle accident. I am assuming you're a pilot, and have had to manage risk at some point? Do the same here.


Because I do get out there and do things I have almost died from a bacteria far worse than Covid. That being said, your understanding of statistics is lacking, you don't catch heart disease or cancer, these things are genetic dispositions or some exposure to things that cause them, ie bad diet for heart disease or long term exposure to smoking for cancer. The 1% we discuss with Covid is your chance of dieing from it now, not what your possible eventual cause of death will be. Things that give you 1/100 chance of a heart attack or cancer immediately or quickly resulting in your death are heavily regulated for the safety of the stupid. This is why electricians do your house wiring and strict regulations of food or who can operate machinery etc. Some idiot who does not wish to quarantine can just walk past sneeze on me and I now have Covid and a 1 in 100 chance of dieing from it within a few weeks. Here's a contentious thought, a study on suicide attempts found only 1.5% of attempts using cuts or drugs resulted in death, so people that actually try to kill themselves using medical means are only slightly more likely to die of it than Covid infection.

[chookcooker]

That being said, your understanding of statistics is lacking
Oh please, with your superior understanding of statistics explain this statement:

First and foremost, we are in the enviable position to be able to wait and watch how the vaccine takes in other countries, like the UK. If case numbers continue to grow exponentially then the vaccine is bogus and was a waste of time.

[43Inches]

Continue to grow exponentially?? WTF are you on about?? Let’s look at the UK:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/


That's a good thing, the statement should of had an "if" caveat. The point being we open up when one, the vaccine shows its doing its thing, which appears on track, and two, when sufficient amounts of population have been immunised, which has not occurred in Australia yet. At any point before point 2 occurs the virus could mutate and become more/less virulent, more/less deadly, circumvent the vaccine etc. Why rush to open the borders when you can wait it out in comfort and watch what happens.

I also think you should manage your alcohol intake before posting as that second post makes no sense to rebuff my comment on statistics, amounts that impair your ability to think clearly could lead to heart disease and or cancer.

[chookcooker]

That's a good thing, the statement should of had an "if" caveat
Umm you did have the “if” “caveat”.
Here you go:


First and foremost, we are in the enviable position to be able to wait and watch how the vaccine takes in other countries, like the UK. If case numbers continue to grow exponentially then the vaccine is bogus and was a waste of time.

Still doesn’t make it anymore accurate.

As for this word salad:

I also think you should manage your alcohol intake before posting as that second post makes no sense to rebuff my comment on statistics, amounts that impair your ability to think clearly could lead to heart disease and or cancer.

A) I wasn’t “rebuffing” your comment on statistics, I was highlighting the fact that someone who sees a 95% REDUCTION in cases as exponential growth, probably shouldn’t lecture others.

B) I think I get the insult you’re assuming. If you wish I can correct the grammar to the point it doesn’t resemble Joe Biden without a teleprompter.

[43Inches]

A) I wasn’t “rebuffing” your comment on statistics, I was highlighting the fact that someone who sees a 95% REDUCTION in cases as exponential growth, probably shouldn’t lecture others.

I think the statement was clearly IF it were to happen, not to be picked apart on semantics. There is nothing there where I said numbers were actually increasing, apart from an error in tense. If you like i will replace continue with resume.

[Paragraph377]

A third Australian has just died in India since the Australian border to India was shut. I guess those 3 deaths are ok because it happened to Australians in India and didn’t happen to Australians in Australia?

Everyone has their own opinion on COVID and it’s been done to death here. I started this thread due to the previous Virgin thread getting binned, and I had hoped to explore or address the original question; now that this pandemic is in its 16th month, what is the Government going to do to ensure all of our domestic airlines stay alive?? But the thread has lost its way and it’s now just a **** fight between two different forms of opinion, which is totally fine as we are in a democratic society, but there won’t be any winners in this argument so I reckon the Mods should reach in to their bag of gaol quality padlocks and slap one on the thread.

Best of luck to all.

[SHVC]

The whole India and Australia debacle is just that. Has anyone noticed the ones making the most noise in the media are the ones who voluntarily left Australia for a wedding, Funeral or business! How was this so when in Australia I couldn’t go over the next adjoining border in January to visit a sick relative and yet these ppl were allowed to leave the country.

Cricketers Why? They get special treatment allowed to charter a flight to get home Gladys raises cap for one day to make it happen

Australian Olympians, are they really going to let them go to Japan, into a danger zone. seriously can’t make this up. Australia is messed up we are seeing a real line in the sand in our community.

[Chris2303]

Just as well this isn't hosted on Facebook or a lot of deniers/anti-vaxxers would have been kicked off in the last 12 months

[DirectAnywhere]

I reckon the Mods should reach in to their bag of gaol quality padlocks and slap one on the thread.

As thread starter, feel free to fix it yourself. Presumably this is the reason the originator of the previous Virgin thread chose to delete it.

[Paragraph377]

As thread starter, feel free to fix it yourself. Presumably this is the reason the originator of the previous Virgin thread chose to delete it.

Thanks Mod. 👍

[Lookleft]

Seems like the lady who started the conversation has now distanced herself from it.

She told a media event at Brisbane Airport today her choice of words was far from ideal.

"I very much understand that my words taken in isolation may have offended people," Ms Hrdlicka said.

"If had time again I would use different words to make the same point.

"We are a domestic airline that is absolutely committed to keeping the community safe."

So she is not apologising for what she said just sorry that people were offended. Different words to make the same point, so does she still think its ok that people would die as long as her airline can make more money? Anyway done to death (no pun intended) whats happening at Virgin?

[bangbounceboeing]

An extra 700 flights a week announced today. Where on earth are they going to find the crew and aircraft to achieve that in the short to medium term ?

[gordonfvckingramsay]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theaustralian.com.au/business/margin-call/virgin-boss-jayne-hrdlicka-issued-share-bonus-days-before-covid-death-comments/news-story/bbbee718702009bcd163dacdf92a39a9

A better headline would be:

Struggling airline says it is happy to kill passengers, awards senior management millions in bonuses

[Agent_86]

An extra 700 flights a week announced todayNEW ROUTESDarwin-Sydney - daily during winter from July 14

Adelaide-Cairns - up to 4 flights per week from August 10

Sydney-Townsville - 3 flights per week from July 27

Melbourne-Townsville - 3 flights per week from August 17

Cairns-Perth - up to 4 flights per week from July 26
MORE FLIGHTS ON BUSY EAST COAST ROUTES (BY OCTOBER)Sydney-Melbourne - from 130 up to 163 return flights per week

Sydney-Brisbane - from 76 up to 104 return flights per week

Melbourne-Brisbane - from 61 up to 84 return flights per week
MORE FLIGHTS ON OTHER ROUTES (BY OCTOBER)Melbourne-Gold Coast - from 40 up to 55 return flights per week

Sydney-Gold Coast - from 49 up to 72 return flights per week

Melbourne-Sunshine Coast - from 13 up to 28 return flights per week

Sydney-Sunshine Coast - from 11 up to 26 return flights per week

Brisbane-Cairns - from 29 up to 31 return flights per week

Melbourne-Cairns - from 8 up to 20 return flights per week

Sydney-Cairns - from 10 up to 20 return flights per week

Brisbane-Proserpine/Whitsunday Coast - from 7 up to 10 return flights per week

Melbourne-Hamilton Island - up to 4 return flights per week

Melbourne-Hobart - from 18 up to 31 return flights per week

Sydney-Hobart - from 10 up to 20 return flights per week

Melbourne-Launceston - from 16 up to 21 return flights per week

Brisbane-Mackay - from 20 up to 30 return flights per week

Brisbane-Townsville - from 20 up to 31 return flights per week

Brisbane-Perth - from 17 up to 24 return flights per week

Brisbane-Canberra - from 18 up to 24 return flights per week

Adelaide-Gold Coast - from 7 up to 9 return flights per week across school holiday travel dates only

[PoppaJo]

An extra 700 flights a week announced today. Where on earth are they going to find the crew and aircraft to achieve that in the short to medium term ?
Are some of these Alliance E190?

[AerialPerspective]

The Australian Securities and Investments Commission has reveal for the first time the full scale of the airline’s strife before it was rescued - a $3.1bn loss in the year ending June 30, 2020, and it is carrying an ongoing debt of $1.2 bn.

Under the leadership of Borghetti and then ‘Scuz’, the airline was dead in the water and COVID banged the final nail in its coffin. So as much as people hate Bain and Mrs Jayne, without the two of them there would be no Virgin Australia at all, and in turn there would literally be no pilots, cabin crew and other Human Resources that make an airline possible.

My fear is that with current rumours being that International flying won’t resume until 2022, and that is very possible considering this pandemic is now in its 16th month, what is the Government going to do to ensure all of our domestic airlines stay alive??

Seems to me that she's fired all the right people that needed firing so far, I guess there's one or two previous execs that should have gone too but I suppose she needed to have someone who knew where the bodies were buried. There's still a few that need weeding out but I'm sure she'll get to them when the time is right.

Wonder if a certain person will be handing back their AO now that the full extent of the damage is known - reminds me of an old political quip from the 90s that seems appropriate "the biggest jobs and investment destroyer since the bubonic plague".......

[AerialPerspective]

Each to their own I suppose; I am just happy I am living in a country where public health is taken seriously and not somewhere like India. The bottom line is both NZ and Australia are both significantly better off than countries that didn't implement appropriate measures and had their economies destroyed. I've been out for dinner with the missus this evening, I can do that because of those measures, Try saying that in the USA, UK, mainland Europe, etc....

Actually, since the clown left the WH and there is someone there with at least the interest in doing the job, they've vaccinated more than a third of the population I believe and the infection rates are tumbling but yes, very grateful to be living in Australia and would be happy living in NZ too.......

[SHVC]

With QF announcement today, then JH announcing 250 jobs including pilots adding additional routes, could this be their move on a very wounded QF? QF is still in deep deep water VA has cut their debt in half and seem to be getting stronger.

[43Inches]

With QF announcement today, then JH announcing 250 jobs including pilots adding additional routes, could this be their move on a very wounded QF? QF is still in deep deep water VA has cut their debt in half and seem to be getting stronger.

I think you might be spot on there, VA and Rex both squared up with equity partners, no debt. QF spending cash frivolously on loss making routes to try and maintain its magic 60% market share, but building debt to do so. The big Q might be falling into a trap that they cant dig their way out of. At some point the amount of debt will require 60% market share to be serviced. I think many might be barking up the wrong tree in thinking its Rex or VA that will balk in the long run, with QF unable to bully entrants with market power whoever survives will definitely make profits. All this depends how deep are each players pockets and how far are they willing to push. If Bain are as cut throat as is made out on here, they may smell blood in the water and push for dominance, imagine how much VA will be worth then.

[mates rates]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market and now is the time to attack Qantas with 100 international airframes sitting on the ground.I don’t know what the leasing arrangements would be on these aircraft?But Virgin are leasing aircraft on an hourly flying rate.

[Colonel_Klink]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market and now is the time to attack Qantas with 100 international airframes sitting on the ground.I don’t know what the leasing arrangements would be on these aircraft?But Virgin are leasing aircraft on an hourly flying rate.

Virgin targeting 60% of domestic market when they only have about 30% now? I’m sorry but that doesn’t pass the pub test.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

With QF announcement today, then JH announcing 250 jobs including pilots adding additional routes, could this be their move on a very wounded QF? QF is still in deep deep water VA has cut their debt in half and seem to be getting stronger.

QF wounded? Deep water?

[Icarus2001]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market and now is the time to attack Q...
Err...do you have a source for that?

[SHVC]

QF wounded? Deep water?

QF announcement today Vs VA announcement today. Despite what you and others think QF are not in a great place. Offering VR on international CC same day VA offering employment. You tell me me what you think?!

[MickG0105]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market ...
That would be impossible to achieve with their mid-market strategy product offering. VA will saddle up the most profitable 30 percent of the market that they can achieve and ride that horse all the way to a public share offer.

[Paragraph377]

Virgin targeting 60% of domestic market when they only have about 30% now? I’m sorry but that doesn’t pass the pub test.

Agree completely. To jag 60% of the market (Qantas had 65% before VA collapsed) they would need to offer service and quality equivalent to QF. I know I know, I mentioned the words Qantas and quality, but their business lounges, business class standard and FF program leave VA for dust. VA would have to equal that standard or exceed it if they want to knock the Rat off it’s perch from its 90% market share. I’m not sure even COVID would bring about that change.

[ozbiggles]

QF announcement today Vs VA announcement today. Despite what you and others think QF are not in a great place. Offering VR on international CC same day VA offering employment. You tell me me what you think?!

Really? OK, QANTAS are just clearing the decks of the staff so they can replace them with cheaper contract staff when the international borders open. Never waste a crisis.
Virgin got rid of thousands, they are getting a couple of hundred back with fair work giving every indication they would be OK with them going back to award if they don't give the company what it wants.
And if I was going to back a company to be bailed out by the Feds, it wouldn't be Virgin.

[DanV2]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market and now is the time to attack Qantas with 100 international airframes sitting on the ground.I don’t know what the leasing arrangements would be on these aircraft?But Virgin are leasing aircraft on an hourly flying rate.

Welcome back BNEA320. Hows your Snoworld website going.

[minigundiplomat]

Virgin are aiming for 60% of the domestic market and now is the time to attack

Err...do you have a source for that?

Of course he doesn't, because its bullsh1t. Jayne has stated she wants to reposition VA in the middle market which is between 30-40% of the domestic market.

[Agent_86]

VA offering employment...

Recruiting 250 staff after Ms Jayne let go 3000. Wow :hmm:

[AerialPerspective]

Really? OK, QANTAS are just clearing the decks of the staff so they can replace them with cheaper contract staff when the international borders open. Never waste a crisis.
Virgin got rid of thousands, they are getting a couple of hundred back with fair work giving every indication they would be OK with them going back to award if they don't give the company what it wants.
And if I was going to back a company to be bailed out by the Feds, it wouldn't be Virgin.

Plus Qantas has an international network. You simply can't have International CC sitting around on the payroll until 2022 with no income coming in the door due to no flying happening. They own all the 787s but other aircraft that are used for International are encumbered and parked. Qantas has billions in the bank, a largely unencumbered fleet and a rotating credit facility at very low interest rates.

They are not in pain, they will be fine. As someone else noted, VA got rid of half their workforce and are now re-employing about 200.

[AerialPerspective]

Welcome back BNEA320. Hows your Snoworld website going.

Qantas paid cash for the entire 787-9 fleet as I understand it. The A380s would be on leases but I suspect that after nearly 13 years, the oldest ones would likely be unencumbered. Ditto most of the 737s and A330s.

One of the things that killed VA was its hideously expensive (due to poor negotiation) lease costs compared to QF, so I doubt that the effect of having the aircraft on the ground is debilitating - I suspect most of QF's fleet are hourly lease. Those that were on finance leases are otherwise likely now owned outright.

[t_cas]

Qantas paid cash for the entire 787-9 fleet as I understand it. The A380s would be on leases but I suspect that after nearly 13 years, the oldest ones would likely be unencumbered. Ditto most of the 737s and A330s.

One of the things that killed VA was its hideously expensive (due to poor negotiation) lease costs compared to QF, so I doubt that the effect of having the aircraft on the ground is debilitating - I suspect most of QF's fleet are hourly lease. Those that were on finance leases are otherwise likely now owned outright.

787s used as security would now make them encumbered.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/qantas-group-secures-625-million-against-787-9s/137514.article

some debt due to mature very soon.

AJ was smart to secure the loan facility against the new 787s before the arse fell out of their value…

Over 5 billion in debt as of last year.

[Lookleft]

QF announcement today Vs VA announcement today. Despite what you and others think QF are not in a great place. Offering VR on international CC same day VA offering employment. You tell me me what you think?!

All this talk of QF being in a worse position than Rex or Virgin is all garbage. If the doomsdayers predictions come true what role do you think the Government will play to ensure that Australia's most iconic brand and strategic asset will survive? You are kidding yourself if you think politics wouldn't play a part.

[No Idea Either]

All this talk of QF being in a worse position than Rex or Virgin is all garbage. If the doomsdayers predictions come true what role do you think the Government will play to ensure that Australia's most iconic brand and strategic asset will survive? You are kidding yourself if you think politics wouldn't play a part.

Guvmint doesn’t pick winners Lookleft.....I’m sure it will be left to the market.............NOT.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

QF announcement today Vs VA announcement today. Despite what you and others think QF are not in a great place. Offering VR on international CC same day VA offering employment. You tell me me what you think?!

Two decades of slash and burn management, every negotiation beginning with demands for large T&C reductions, calls of economic woe whenever it suits them followed closely behind by very healthy profits. Couple this with an almost fully stood up domestic fleet and a huge percentage of domestic capacity...I think QF are in better shape than some would have you think.

Two decades of crying wolf and it’s hard to know what the truth really is.

I will happily eat umble pie if I’m wrong but my money is on a miraculously surprising recovery with a modest profit before 2021 is out.

[No Idea Either]

You’re wrong Gordon........it will be an amaaaaaaaaaaazing recovery, not a miraculous one😒😒

[crosscutter]

Amaaazing it will be. There is no denying the debt. It is significant. Fact is the (owned) A380s have a book value now of less than $40M each (value of spare parts). The fleet has been written down across the board meaning:

Future depreciation expenses will be reduced due to the reduced book value of the asset.
Future net income and profit margin will increase.
Future return on assets and return on equity will both increase because of higher future profitability and lower asset and equity base.
If the decision is made to retire certain aircraft, the write off is less significant.

So, it’s a question as to whether theses changes combined with revenue generation and cost mgmt are enough to service the debt. A company making $1B before COVID gives me confidence that the debt will be swiftly returned back to the levels needed for future investment (A350s and domestic replacements).

Back to Virgin, they have a different situation but their lease costs and operating costs have been massively reduced. Their load factors are the best out of everyone at the moment due capacity controls. They are doing fine and crew should be optimistic in my opinion.

[MickG0105]

Amaaazing it will be. There is no denying the debt. It is significant. Fact is the (owned) A380s have a book value now of less than $40M each (value of spare parts). The fleet has been written down across the board meaning:

Future depreciation expenses will be reduced due to the reduced book value of the asset.
Future net income and profit margin will increase.
Future return on assets and return on equity will both increase because of higher future profitability and lower asset and equity base.
If the decision is made to retire certain aircraft, the write off is less significant.

So, it’s a question as to whether theses changes combined with revenue generation and cost mgmt are enough to service the debt. A company making $1B before COVID gives me confidence that the debt will be swiftly returned back to the levels needed for future investment (A350s and domestic replacements).

Back to Virgin, they have a different situation but their lease costs and operating costs have been massively reduced. Their load factors are the best out of everyone at the moment due capacity controls. They are doing fine and crew should be optimistic in my opinion.
Very good summary.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Amaaazing it will be. There is no denying the debt. It is significant. Fact is the (owned) A380s have a book value now of less than $40M each (value of spare parts). The fleet has been written down across the board meaning:

Future depreciation expenses will be reduced due to the reduced book value of the asset.
Future net income and profit margin will increase.
Future return on assets and return on equity will both increase because of higher future profitability and lower asset and equity base.
If the decision is made to retire certain aircraft, the write off is less significant.

So, it’s a question as to whether theses changes combined with revenue generation and cost mgmt are enough to service the debt. A company making $1B before COVID gives me confidence that the debt will be swiftly returned back to the levels needed for future investment (A350s and domestic replacements).

Back to Virgin, they have a different situation but their lease costs and operating costs have been massively reduced. Their load factors are the best out of everyone at the moment due capacity controls. They are doing fine and crew should be optimistic in my opinion.

Very well said.

[43Inches]

The A380s were already hugely written down during the industrial issues back when AJ shut the company down and froze pays mark 1 a few years back, that was definitely a manufactured loss. I would be interested to see how much more they had to wiggle with this full year release. The fact that debt has been increased quite significantly in two years is the issue, I doubt either last years or this loss were manufactured, the accounting pointers are different. I remember the point being made when they used the A380 depreciation to help fight unions, that it may hinder its use for actual tax purposes later.

[crosscutter]

I would be interested to see how much more they had to wiggle with this full year release.

$1.4B amount of wiggle in FY20. So far this FY, the A380s have been further reduced in value by $116M.

[bangbounceboeing]

And there was me thinking this was a virgin thread 🙄

[SHVC]

How is VA recovery going? QF seem to have drooped 2% of their market share whilst VA gained. Are the crew on 100% rosters yet?

[Double_Clutch]

Got a mate there - Not all Crew on 100%. Not sure how they propose to be rehiring when crew remain stood down?

[bb_turn]

So when I book my family from YSSY to NZQN we are booking with experienced crew right?

[VH-ABC]

15 years to make that your first post?

[SHVC]

I wouldn’t be booking ZQN anytime soon either. Go to Dubbo zoo at least you’re guaranteed to go on a holiday.

[greenslopes]

So when I book my family from YSSY to NZQN we are booking with experienced crew right?
Do you mean the crew taking the booking are experienced,..................
If you are wondering about the crew operating the flight, they have to meet all criteria of that port.
VAA do not have inexperienced crew nor do they allow crew to operate who have not met the criteria of each port.

[No Idea Either]

Re-employment list issued this morning, taking back 88 pilots that were made redundant. Good news👍👍👍

[Colonel_Klink]

Re-employment list issued this morning, taking back 88 pilots that were made redundant. Good news👍👍👍


For everyone except Rex!

[Break Right]

So when I book my family from YSSY to NZQN we are booking with experienced crew right?
No they all just received their Pilot licence from weetbix last week. :mad:

[jrfsp]

No they all just received their Pilot licence from weetbix last week. :mad:

They did a few practice runs on flight simulator - its only ZQN should be fine.

[SHVC]

Re-employment list issued this morning, taking back 88 pilots that were made redundant. Good news👍👍👍

Watch the rage start amongst these lot. I bet there is alot of pi$$ed of FOs now.

[PoppaJo]

Will be a 20 year and perhaps longer wait for many FOs. I was speaking to one recently who is nervous they will actually face retirement without even getting the upgrade opportunity, or for a few years at best. The Golden seat is funding my approaching retirement at the moment and I’m not the only one that needs that to fall into place also try and live somewhat comfortable in our remaining years.

The Virgin MAX looks like it will be used for growth so more people will return, then the widebody at some point mid this decade.

The fun starts for the next generation in 10-15 years when everyone in many operators face retirement. Jobs galore for millennials.

[Chris2303]

So when I book my family from YSSY to NZQN we are booking with experienced crew right?

Please don't come to NZ. We don't want you bringing the Delta variant with you

[cloudsurfng]

Please don't come to NZ. We don't want you bringing the Delta variant with you

you will get it eventually, one way or another.

[kiwi grey]

Please don't come to NZ. We don't want you bringing the Delta variant with you.

you will get it eventually, one way or another.

If we can put the Delta variant off for four or five months, enough of us will be vaccinated that it won't be such a problem.
In the meantime, we're all just hoping for the best

[cloudsurfng]

If we can put the Delta variant off for four or five months, enough of us will be vaccinated that it won't be such a problem.
In the meantime, we're all just hoping for the best


its not the virus that will be the problem in that case, it’s the attitude of politicians and the sheople who demand borders stay closed

[Anti Skid On]

So when I book my family from YSSY to NZQN we are booking with experienced crew right?
Queenstown, overpriced, over-rated and full of Queenslander's and JAFA's...... (and they haven't got any snow)

[Anti Skid On]

its not the virus that will be the problem in that case, it’s the attitude of politicians and the sheople who demand borders stay closed
Oh wise one, how many ventilator beds has New Zealand? Less than 500, If the Delta variant too root without any isolation the health sector would be overwhelmed in a week.We do not want to be like Brazil, India, the UK, Italy, the USA (insert country where they've ****** things up)

Be grateful you are WELL; be grateful your government CARES. That's why Australia and New Zealand are economically better off than most.

[cloudsurfng]

Oh wise one, how many ventilator beds has New Zealand? Less than 500, If the Delta variant too root without any isolation the health sector would be overwhelmed in a week.We do not want to be like Brazil, India, the UK, Italy, the USA (insert country where they've ****** things up)

Be grateful you are WELL; be grateful your government CARES. That's why Australia and New Zealand are economically better off than most.

i think you’re missing my point. The delta will get there eventually. I sincerely hope the vaccination program there goes well. Unfortunately, the success in both Australia and NZ has conditioned the public to accept
only zero cases. So unless the sheople in both countries accept that there will be cases, everyday, you have as much hope
of opening internationally as we do. For some reason people can’t accept that vaccination equals less or no hospitalisation/death, even with cases. Zero is the only acceptable number, a stiff up both politicians and the media should be held to account for.

so, as I said, if your vaccination program goes well, fantastic. The delta will still get there. And there will still be daily cases

[Chris2303]

And there will still be daily cases

None in the community for over 100 days

[galdian]

None in the community for over 100 days

If you think that means there can't or won't be a community case on day 100+ 1....or any other future days....I think you're kidding yourself.
As borders open up (and close again) and there's more people moving around it will happen - just a matter of where, and when and how contained the authorities decide they want to attempt to keep it.

The time will come where authorities will have to plant the flag and say "this is what is an acceptable of CV within the community and some people will get sick, that's life, grow a few!"
That time is yet far away.

[Chris2303]

If you think that means there can't or won't be a community case on day 100+ 1....or any other future days....I think you're kidding yourself.

I'm not because I strongly believe that because our idiot politicians have become more interested in open borders than protecting their citizens.

Friends on mine are considering running a book on when the next lockdown will come in NZ

[galdian]

I'm not because I strongly believe that because our idiot politicians have become more interested in open borders than protecting their citizens.

Friends on mine are considering running a book on when the next lockdown will come in NZ

At some stage borders have to reopen full time and some people will get sick - you can't keep living in fear, businesses can't function always waiting for the "next shutdown" which may be the one that wipes them out once and for all.
So I disagree somewhat as your tone implies living in fear is the default position for all time and it can't and mustn't be.

[PoppaJo]

At some stage borders have to reopen full time and some people will get sick - you can't keep living in fear, businesses can't function always waiting for the "next shutdown" which may be the one that wipes them out once and for all.
So I disagree somewhat as your tone implies living in fear is the default position for all time and it can't and mustn't be.
The Virgin boss pretty much said that.

Outrage was off the charts from the snowflakes of this land. #BoycottVirgin was trending immediately after.

How exactly will this country transition to having 1000s of cases a day in 2022. Which premier will be the first mover?

[chookcooker]

The Virgin boss pretty much said that.

Outrage was off the charts from the snowflakes of this land. #BoycottVirgin was trending immediately after.

How exactly will this country transition to having 1000s of cases a day in 2022. Which premier will be the first mover?
agree largely, except if we’re largely vaccinated we won’t have anywhere near 1000s of cases a day, Israel have been aroun 35 a day for weeks now. Pro rata would put us at about 80/day. And they were bringing the numbers down from a peak of a per capita equivalent of 12,000/day vs our essentially zero

[PoppaJo]

Even at 80% Herd Immunity the likes of these super strains will still spread like wildfire. Israel is starting the upward trend as Delta has arrived. However nobody dies. Those not vaccinated will start choking the hospital systems.

Once we hit 80% we need to move on. The number will end up in the 90s fairly quickly as those not interested in getting the jab soon realise they will end up in ICU as case numbers are irrelevant to the large majority of the nation.

The only restriction I expect once we hit 80% is wear masks if you have a cold, in order not to pass the ‘cold’ onto family or colleagues.

However it remains to be seen how the States will start to render case numbers meaningless, and we can move on finally.

[1A_Please]

Even at 80% Herd Immunity the likes of these super strains will still spread like wildfire. Israel is starting the upward trend as Delta has arrived. However nobody dies. Those not vaccinated will start choking the hospital systems.

Once we hit 80% we need to move on. The number will end up in the 90s fairly quickly as those not interested in getting the jab soon realise they will end up in ICU as case numbers are irrelevant to the large majority of the nation.

The only restriction I expect once we hit 80% is wear masks if you have a cold, in order not to pass the ‘cold’ onto family or colleagues.

However it remains to be seen how the States will start to render case numbers meaningless, and we can move on finally.
At some point the government needs to say "We believe everyone who wants a vaccine has now had the opportunity to get one and we are therefore reducing border restrictions. If you choose not to have a vaccine, we believe you may be putting yourself at serious risk but we assume you are fully aware of that and accept those risks." Realistically this is probably March next year because such an approach would require a full vaccination program for everyone 12 years and older.

[Paragraph377]

Oh FFS COVID COVID COVID. Isn’t there enough threads about COVID??

[AerialPerspective]

The Virgin boss pretty much said that.

Outrage was off the charts from the snowflakes of this land. #BoycottVirgin was trending immediately after.

How exactly will this country transition to having 1000s of cases a day in 2022. Which premier will be the first mover?

My view of Jane Hrdlicka's comments was that the only thing she did wrong was to apologise. She should have just said "Well, maybe it offends some people but I was speaking my mind and there was no malice involved so get over it".

I'm all for being polite to people but this social media pile on has become a lot of white noise. It reminds me of people in my early work career who would do as little work as possible but spend every moment they could in the lunchroom scoffing coffee and pontificating about everything and preceding every sentence with "the next thing THEY will do will probably be...."

Like social media warriors, they add nothing and just try and impose their negativity and twisted opinions on each other.

It often reminds me of that Australian stand up comedian - Steve someone, can't remember his second name - but he did a skit on being 'offended'. He correctly observed that many parents go around saying "I was offended...." yet when their kids come to them and say "Mum/Dad, that other kid called me an idiot...." they respond with "Don't worry, he's a dick". He then hilariously says "Be offended. Nothing's going to happen. It's not like someone's going to be saying I went to the comedy festival and this comedian made fun of our Lord Jesus and I was OFFENDED, then, when I got up the next morning, I had leprosy".

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Oh FFS COVID COVID COVID. Isn’t there enough threads about COVID??

There probably are enough stand alone threads about COVID, but COVID and VA are interconnected as far as Miss Jayne using (or abusing) COVID to access “extraordinary” provisions of the agreement in order to keep staff in a perpetual state of stand up, stand down. I imagine the bonus afforded to her will be eye watering as a result.

[Chronic Snoozer]

There probably are enough stand alone threads about COVID, but COVID and VA are interconnected as far as Miss Jayne using (or abusing) COVID to access “extraordinary” provisions of the agreement in order to keep staff in a perpetual state of stand up, stand down. I imagine the bonus afforded to her will be eye watering as a result.
To be sure, to be sure!

[RedClaw]

It often reminds me of that Australian stand up comedian - Steve someone


Comedian Steve Hughes. Hilarious skit and so true.

[Lead Balloon]

Ms Jane was stating a fact, not expressing an opinion.

Gigi Foster, a respected economist and regular broadcaster on that well-know right wing ratbag outlet the ABC, stated the same fact and got the same outraged response.

All day, every day, a price is put on lives and decisions are made that it's not worth the cost of saving a life. (Decisions like not having a tower at Ballina.) The decisions are not expressed in those stark terms, but that's the substance of them.

The problem with the response to C-19 is that the politicians have abdicated their responsibility to the medical experts. You ask a medical expert how to mitigate the risk of the spread of C-19 and the consequential deaths and chronic side effects, they'll tell you. And that's their job.

What they aren't asked - because they couldn't tell you the answer - is: what is the cost of those mitigating actions? If we shut down Sydney or Melbourne or whatever, what is the cost in terms of reduced quality of life, curtailed liberties, mental illness, suicides, other medical consequences, lost business and economic downturn?

The pollies are supposed to take responsibility for the decision that the mitigating steps are 'worth' taking, not the medical experts. But even if the pollies 'stepped up' to their responsibilities, they can't make a sensible decision if the costs of the mitigating steps are unknown.

The pollies have been happy to abdicate their responsibilities to the medical experts because, up until recently, they've been 'rewarded' for all of the mitigating actions. For example, Western Australians seem to love being shut off from the rest of Australia and the world.

The economic numbers are great!

Well, in that case, we should just continue with random lock downs of cities and states and keep the international borders closed indefinitely, because it's 'good' for 'economy' (and the popularity of pollies).

But, there's a very very very big cost being paid. I could max out my credit card on a bunch of 'stuff' and curl up in a safe ball of wool in my MacMansion. Materially rich and safe.

But doomed.

[slice]

But, there's a very very very big cost being paid. I could max out my credit card on a bunch of 'stuff' and curl up in a safe ball of wool in my MacMansion. Materially rich and safe.

But doomed

And to bring it back to the original topic of this thread, wasn't that the financial operating model of Virgin 2.0 ?:}

[SHVC]

Which we do not know.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

I’m guessing a Chinese carrier with very deep pockets will buy Virgin when it’s for sale and QF group will become the underdog .
There will be no way to stop the sale as it’s already foreign owned .
I’m really disappointed at the money given to both Airlines , why doesn’t the government demands a share of equity in each at least for the future fund !

[Icarus2001]

There will be no way to stop the sale as it’s already foreign owned .

I would not be so sure about that.

[cloudsurfng]

Yeah sure, a great selling point for any airline at the moment would be ‘we’re Chinese’.

[MickG0105]

I’m guessing a Chinese carrier with very deep pockets will buy Virgin when it’s for sale ...
There will be no way to stop the sale as it’s already foreign owned .

That's not a proper interpretation of the Treasurer's powers under the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Act 1975, the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Impositions Act 2015 and their associated regulations. Airlines fall under the heading of 'sensitive businesses' which means that the Treasurer's approval is required for any transaction involving any foreign investor acquiring a 'substantial interest' (20 per cent or more) of any Australian-registered airline that is valued above $275 million.

Just because approval was given for a US-based company to acquire 100 per cent of a sensitive business that doesn't obviate the requirement for subsequent acquisitions to have to be approved.

[Agent_86]

FWIW, ex VA A332 -XFG departs MEL today destined for AUH and onward ports :(

Max.

[AerialPerspective]

That's not a proper interpretation of the Treasurer's powers under the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Act 1975, the Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Impositions Act 2015 and their associated regulations. Airlines fall under the heading of 'sensitive businesses' which means that the Treasurer's approval is required for any transaction involving any foreign investor acquiring a 'substantial interest' (20 per cent or more) of any Australian-registered airline that is valued above $275 million.

Just because approval was given for a US-based company to acquire 100 per cent of a sensitive business that doesn't obviate the requirement for subsequent acquisitions to have to be approved.

True, but it's only as strong as the imbecile who is the Treasurer - Mr 'All tip and no iceberg' Costello blithely approved of the sale to APA of Qantas - even after journalists had pinned down APA and they'd reluctantly admitted that their plan for Qantas included emptying its bank accounts and stripping it of assets, loading it to the ceiling and beyond with debt then hoping that it trades its way out before flogging it off (if it still existed).

Well done Mr Costello - one investor saved the transaction from going through and APA itself collapsed months later.

Costello is from the same shower of ****e that sold the Port of Darwin under a 99 year lease to a Chinese company with links to the CCP - didn't even tell the yanks who use the port as part of joint defense arrangements.

So, I won't be holding my breath waiting for the actual national interest to be served, more likely personal interest - the 'Minister' that approved the DRW Port sale now allegedly draws a salary of $800K PA from the company that bought it.

[AerialPerspective]

I’m guessing a Chinese carrier with very deep pockets will buy Virgin when it’s for sale and QF group will become the underdog .
There will be no way to stop the sale as it’s already foreign owned .
I’m really disappointed at the money given to both Airlines , why doesn’t the government demands a share of equity in each at least for the future fund !

I reckon the same thing, not about the sale but that the government should take equity in the airlines as a strategic investment in return for assisting them to emerge from Covid as they entered.

[AerialPerspective]

It often reminds me of that Australian stand up comedian - Steve someone


Comedian Steve Hughes. Hilarious skit and so true.

That's him!!!!!!! "In Amsterdam, they have a bike track alongside a river. In Australia there'd be a fences and signs and warning lables. Not in Amsterdam, they trust people. Hey, if you're wet, you're in the wrong bit!!!!"

[MickG0105]

True, but it's only as strong as the imbecile who is the Treasurer - Mr 'All tip and no iceberg' Costello blithely approved of the sale to APA of Qantas - even after journalists had pinned down APA and they'd reluctantly admitted that their plan for Qantas included emptying its bank accounts and stripping it of assets, loading it to the ceiling and beyond with debt then hoping that it trades its way out before flogging it off (if it still existed).

I can't find any reporting consistent with that assertion, perhaps you have a reference for that. I'd be fascinated to hear who these 'journalists' were who allegedly managed to extract such damming admissions from APA ostensibly before FIRB approval had even been recommended. Surely they won Walkleys for that sort of journalistic prowess.

What was most assuredly part of the public record were the details of the legally enforceable Deed of Undertaking provided by APA that:

Foreign majority ownership of Qantas would not occur.
Foreign control of Qantas would not occur.
A majority of directors of Qantas must be Australian citizens.
Qantas must remain based in Australia.
A guaranteed capital investment program of $10 billion over the next five years would occur.
Qantas facilities for the provision of scheduled services, maintenance, housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration must be located in Australia.
Qantas and Jetstar would expand internationally and within Australia.
The Qantas Group would offer an integrated network of international, domestic and regional air transport services
The Qantas Group will support regional capacity growth and regional network improvement.
Maintenance, repair and overhaul operations will continue with a view to building on existing capabilities for wide and narrow bodied maintenance to create an onshore globally competitive in house maintenance repair and overhaul operation.
Qantas would continue its Frequent Flyer Programme with no loss of frequent flyer points.




Well done Mr Costello - one investor saved the transaction from going through and APA itself collapsed months later.

APA was a consortium put together such that it complied with the ownership requirements spelled out in the Qantas Sales Act 1992 with the sole purpose of acquiring Qantas. When their bid to acquire Qantas failed there was no reason to maintain the consortium.

[PoppaJo]

FWIW, ex VA A332 -XFG departs MEL today destined for AUH and onward ports :(

Max.
And operated by yours truly...

DE LORE AND ASSOCIATES PTY LTD

[AerialPerspective]

I can't find any reporting consistent with that assertion, perhaps you have a reference for that. I'd be fascinated to hear who these 'journalists' were who allegedly managed to extract such damming admissions from APA ostensibly before FIRB approval had even been recommended. Surely they won Walkleys for that sort of journalistic prowess.

What was most assuredly part of the public record were the details of the legally enforceable Deed of Undertaking provided by APA that:

Foreign majority ownership of Qantas would not occur.
Foreign control of Qantas would not occur.
A majority of directors of Qantas must be Australian citizens.
Qantas must remain based in Australia.
A guaranteed capital investment program of $10 billion over the next five years would occur.
Qantas facilities for the provision of scheduled services, maintenance, housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration must be located in Australia.
Qantas and Jetstar would expand internationally and within Australia.
The Qantas Group would offer an integrated network of international, domestic and regional air transport services
The Qantas Group will support regional capacity growth and regional network improvement.
Maintenance, repair and overhaul operations will continue with a view to building on existing capabilities for wide and narrow bodied maintenance to create an onshore globally competitive in house maintenance repair and overhaul operation.
Qantas would continue its Frequent Flyer Programme with no loss of frequent flyer points.




APA was a consortium put together such that it complied with the ownership requirements spelled out in the Qantas Sales Act 1992 with the sole purpose of acquiring Qantas. When their bid to acquire Qantas failed there was no reason to maintain the consortium.

OK. I was going from memory - I will find the references - it may actually have been a shareholder who pinned someone from APA down but there was definitely an admission that assets would be removed - if you think they'd abide by all the conditions you've put forward then you're dreaming - we all know how these venture capitalists work - whether they strip the assets or remove equity into their own pockets via exorbitant 'management fees' (refer to Toys-R-Us, a la the current owners of Virgin Australia), they get their pound of flesh and it has been proven over and over that they walk away with no shame when it goes to ****e.

[AerialPerspective]

I can't find any reporting consistent with that assertion, perhaps you have a reference for that. I'd be fascinated to hear who these 'journalists' were who allegedly managed to extract such damming admissions from APA ostensibly before FIRB approval had even been recommended. Surely they won Walkleys for that sort of journalistic prowess.

What was most assuredly part of the public record were the details of the legally enforceable Deed of Undertaking provided by APA that:

Foreign majority ownership of Qantas would not occur.
Foreign control of Qantas would not occur.
A majority of directors of Qantas must be Australian citizens.
Qantas must remain based in Australia.
A guaranteed capital investment program of $10 billion over the next five years would occur.
Qantas facilities for the provision of scheduled services, maintenance, housing of aircraft, catering, flight operations, training and administration must be located in Australia.
Qantas and Jetstar would expand internationally and within Australia.
The Qantas Group would offer an integrated network of international, domestic and regional air transport services
The Qantas Group will support regional capacity growth and regional network improvement.
Maintenance, repair and overhaul operations will continue with a view to building on existing capabilities for wide and narrow bodied maintenance to create an onshore globally competitive in house maintenance repair and overhaul operation.
Qantas would continue its Frequent Flyer Programme with no loss of frequent flyer points.




APA was a consortium put together such that it complied with the ownership requirements spelled out in the Qantas Sales Act 1992 with the sole purpose of acquiring Qantas. When their bid to acquire Qantas failed there was no reason to maintain the consortium.

The reporting at the time said the company had collapsed. You can mince the words any way you like, there was NOTHING beneficial in that bid for Qantas or Australia. Seriously, 'must remain in Australian hands', yeh, by some orchestrated manipulation of shareholding like VA International, Ansett International, et al. A tiny percentage of the equity in Ansett was assigned to a shelf company called 'Ansett International' so that it technically 'complied' with the 'rules'. I don't see AN International still flying after NZ cut the AN subsidiary loose.......

You must have sourced some of your material from the media or journalists because you referred to the "Qantas SALES Act" - I remember journalists incessantly getting this wrong at the time - it's the 'Qantas Sale Act 1992 (Cwth)'.

[MickG0105]

The reporting at the time said the company had collapsed. You can mince the words any way you like, there was NOTHING beneficial in that bid for Qantas or Australia. Seriously, 'must remain in Australian hands', yeh, by some orchestrated manipulation of shareholding like VA International, Ansett International, et al. A tiny percentage of the equity in Ansett was assigned to a shelf company called 'Ansett International' so that it technically 'complied' with the 'rules'. I don't see AN International still flying after NZ cut the AN subsidiary loose.......

You must have sourced some of your material from the media or journalists because you referred to the "Qantas SALES Act" - I remember journalists incessantly getting this wrong at the time - it's the 'Qantas Sale Act 1992 (Cwth)'.
So no reference to that journalistic scoop you were wailing on Costello about, an irrelevant reference to Virgin and Ansett International and pointing out a spelling mistake on my part (you're quite correct, it's Sale (singular) not Sales).

You can argue till the cows come home about whether the APA buyout of Qantas would have been good, bad, neutral, better, worse or indifferent. On the basis that Qantas's subsequent management has been pilloried almost incessantly since then it's probably not difficult to make an argument that APA couldn't have been worse. The truth of the matter is that we'll never know.

As was noted by many at the time, though, the restrictions of the Deed of Undertaking went well beyond anything binding the then current management of the airline and the $10 billion in investment went beyond anything the airline was then capable of.

[AerialPerspective]

So no reference to that journalistic scoop you were wailing on Costello about, an irrelevant reference to Virgin and Ansett International and pointing out a spelling mistake on my part (you're quite correct, it's Sale (singular) not Sales).

You can argue till the cows come home about whether the APA buyout of Qantas would have been good, bad, neutral, better, worse or indifferent. On the basis that Qantas's subsequent management has been pilloried almost incessantly since then it's probably not difficult to make an argument that APA couldn't have been worse. The truth of the matter is that we'll never know.

As was noted by many at the time, though, the restrictions of the Deed of Undertaking went well beyond anything binding the then current management of the airline and the $10 billion in investment went beyond anything the airline was then capable of.

Just because the story isn't archived somewhere, doesn't mean it didn't exist. The reference to VA and AN is not irrelevant as it demonstrates how a veil of 'Australian ownership' can be created by manipulative accounting.

Looking at just a smattering of LNP trade agreements and other 'rules and regulations' they've created over the years, most have turned out to have holes you could drive a truck through. I mean, this is the same treasurer who, against all advice, sold the Commonwealth's entire gold reserves almost and here we are 20 years later and those reserves are worth substantially more in real dollar terms except they belong to someone else now. Great job Pete and John.

We've seen piss-weak 'regulators' created by the LNP and just recently in Victoria, the Casino regulator set up by Kennett has turned out to be a lame-duck, despite all the rules and regulations passed at the time (and yes, subsequent governments of both colours share responsibility for not fixing it) but it all leads me to be suspect that any 'Deed', enthusiastically endorsed as extensive by the LNP-fawning press is likely to have had the same weak-willed enforcement.

Just one example of this would be the free trade agreement signed with Thailand by the current government. It was supposedly a 'free trade' agreement and thus allowed Thai built cars to be imported in Australia but what they didn't tell you was there were multiple clauses that effectively allowed tariffs to be applied to Holden cars exported to Thailand (when I lived there, there was often Statesmans and Commodores on display in shopping centres as 'luxury' vehicles).

I heard the reports with my own ears about APA - I may not be able to find them but they did exist. It is obvious the Board at the time endorsed the offer because it was 'compelling' and 'represented a premium over the traded price' - don't recall any mention of enthusiastic endorsement of the plans for QF.

As for now, I see airlines all over the world folding in this crisis and Qantas isn't one of them so the current management can't be THAT bad.

I might add, as opposed to extensive pages on this forum 6-7 years ago lauding what a genius and a saviour JB was, along with the cronies he brought with him to VA, constant waving of the flag about he was going to take the fight to Qantas and take its market.

Yeh, all the same things were said about him and his acumen that were said about APA in some quarters - well, we know how JB's tenure ended and the affect it had on VA ultimately.

But we agree on one thing, we will never know because it didn't happen. However, the evidence of such takeovers around the world are smattered with very few successes and mostly disaster. Often even the disasters are not entirely evident because of someone coming in later and having to put it all back together.

[MickG0105]

Sure, why not? In the absence of any corroboration at all we'll just accept that journalists (plural) were somehow able to get APA to admit, at a precarious stage of the acquisition process in advance of securing a recommendation for FIRB approval, that they planned to asset strip Qantas and essentially contravene parts of the Deed of Undertaking that underpinned the acquisition; then not only the Treasurer but also the entire membership of the Foreign Investment Review Board chose to ignore that; said journalists (plural) then amazingly either failed to attend the Costello/Vaile press conference on 7 March 2007 at which FIRB approval was announced or remained silent and none of their colleagues even bothered to pursue that line of questioning; and Qantas as we know it was saved only by happenstance. For sure, that was all a thing.

Further, in what's got to be close to a record for the most thread drift in the least posts, we get to the LNP knowing nothing about regulation or trade.

Let's set out on that perilously long and somewhat challenging journey to get back on topic - and the original question of whether FIRB approval for a Chinese investor to acquire Virgin from Bain is likely.

Unless Chairman Dan, of sign me up for CCP Belt and Road Initiative fame, makes it to the Federal Treasury benches the likelihood of that happening is essentially zero. It simply is not going to happen under a Coalition government given the current and foreseeable relationship with China.

[Lookleft]

Unless Chairman Dan, of sign me up for CCP Belt and Road Initiative fame, makes it to the Federal Treasury benches the likelihood of that happening is essentially zero. It simply is not going to happen under a Coalition government given the current and foreseeable relationship with China.

APA was Dixon's fantasy to unimaginable wealth as he was almost humping Margaret Jackson when announcing it. Mick's statement goes to the heart of domestic airline's Realpolitik.

[Servo]

Aaaaaannnnnddd a Virgin thread also desolves into a QF thread. Cant keep QF out of any thread here on PPRUNE.

[PoppaJo]

I heard a rumour the A330 in Perth is going to be scrapped for parts?

Apparently can’t be repaired (gear) due Airbus won’t allow a ferry and the Airport not allowing it to be fixed on its land after they have already stuffed the apron trying to fix it.

[717tech]

I heard a rumour the A330 in Perth is going to be scrapped for parts?

Apparently can’t be repaired (gear) due Airbus won’t allow a ferry and the Airport not allowing it to be fixed on its land after they have already stuffed the apron trying to fix it.

i can’t imagine anyone wanting to jack a A330 on a stand open to the elements and there’s no hangar in PER that can accommodate it.

[PoppaJo]

i can’t imagine anyone wanting to jack a A330 on a stand open to the elements and there’s no hangar in PER that can accommodate it.
Jayne might get her seats back then.

[YRP]

I heard a rumour the A330 in Perth is going to be scrapped for parts?

Apparently can’t be repaired (gear) due Airbus won’t allow a ferry and the Airport not allowing it to be fixed on its land after they have already stuffed the apron trying to fix it.

For those of us in the back of the class who haven't been paying attention, what is the story with this one? Sounds interesting...

[neville_nobody]

What would prevent a gear down ferry, other than the fuel bill??

[Going Nowhere]

What would prevent a gear down ferry, other than the fuel bill??

Getting the manufacturer and CASA to sign off on a ferry permit.

[transition_alt]

I saw it in Perth just the other day as it was my first time there since COVID.

It sparked my curiosity. However the captain was adamant it was going back to the lessor very soon as it’s been getting some work done over at T1/T2 on the odd day here and there

[Agent_86]

...as it’s been getting some work done over at T1/T2 on the odd day here and there

It quite often goes for 'day trips' across to T1/T2 but never seems to have any work performed on it anymore. At one stage they were attempting to repair the gear in PER but it didn't eventuate.

[t_cas]

Technically a challenge.
Not impossible.

[Torukmacto]

Pretty much any country you’d like to name it’s impossible to go for a walk and not see a perfectly serviceable A330 sitting in the dirt . Why repair a broken one ?

[wondrousbitofrough]

Getting the manufacturer and CASA to sign off on a ferry permit.

The fact they know exactly what's wrong and the potential for further damage...

[Double_Clutch]

What’s going on over at VA? Many stand downs with the reduced schedule?

[turbantime]

What’s going on over at VA? Many stand downs with the reduced schedule?
Surprisingly no, even for Sydney base. MoU extension being discussed with no lower than 75% pay for the next few months.

[Agent_86]

I saw it in Perth just the other day as it was my first time there since COVID.

It sparked my curiosity. However the captain was adamant it was going back to the lessor very soon as it’s been getting some work done over at T1/T2 on the odd day here and there

Was going for another 'walk' this morning...

[Colonel_Klink]

Virgin have just announced the acquisition of an additional 9 B737 taking the total fleet to 77 by end of Feb.

Very positive news….for when state borders eventually open. Whenever that happens to be. Looks like Virgin is banking pretty heavily that things will be pretty open come Summer time

[PoppaJo]

Add in the MAX order and they will be a 100+ 737 operation in a few years.

Rex are going to have problems getting scale to go up against this. Don’t forget Rex doesn’t have any Sydney slots sort of firmed up in the medium term, they are using gaps in the schedule at the moment. They want the Tiger slots but it appears Jayne does also.

[poach]

How many additional crew would this represent on conservative numbers?

Virgin have just announced the acquisition of an additional 9 B737 taking the total fleet to 77 by end of Feb.

Very positive news….for when state borders eventually open. Whenever that happens to be. Looks like Virgin is banking pretty heavily that things will be pretty open come Summer time

[MelbourneFlyer]

I think Rex's Boeing 737s will be long gone by the time Virgin's first 737 MAX arrives.

[Colonel_Klink]

How many additional crew would this represent on conservative numbers?

Don’t typical domestic carriers run at approximately 5 crew per aircraft, give or take?

[mates rates]

“Real “airlines use to operate at 6 crews per aircraft plus checkers.So I guess in these lean and mean times 5 crews would be pretty close to the numbers.With 9 more aircraft coming and 88 “inactive” pilots being recalled the numbers look correct.

[anonfly]

“Real “airlines use to operate at 6 crews per aircraft plus checkers.So I guess in these lean and mean times 5 crews would be pretty close to the numbers.With 9 more aircraft coming and 88 “inactive” pilots being recalled the numbers look correct.

Id say you right there. No additional crew required after the 88 as of yet. Takes the total number close to 880. Management have been hell bent on the training of the returning crew, to the detriment of current crew as they are “taking” sectors for line flying. Which means greater number of stand down days for crew. More bodies with f all flying on at the moment. Management have a grand plan and it’s certainly being kept a closely guarded secret. Looking forward to next year to see how it all plays out.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

It’s a ploy by Qantas, they know there is nothing going on next year ,but they are playing a game , VA will spend all their cash on retraining and extra aircraft to compete with Qantas ,which will not get used they will fall close to the brink and so may Qantas who would get a government Bail out !

[vhtae]

Probably rule out VH-VOS apparently suffering from corrosion being parked for so long. This aircraft was not owned by VA.

Some talk that VH-VUI and VH-VUJ in which are in the US are preparing a return to Australia soon.

VH-VOL and VH-VOO currently at Seletar Singapore.

VH-VOQ is stored at Alice Springs.

[PoppaJo]

737s look like they will come from SilkAir. Mid last decade age wise.

Pretty close comparable config.

[On Guard]

Correct me if I’m wrong but the 88 were for previous aircraft. These 9 will require more.



QUOTE=PoppaJo;11102478]737s look like

they will come from SilkAir. Mid last decade age wise.

Pretty close comparable config.[/QUOTE]

[Chocks Away]

Don’t typical domestic carriers run at approximately 5 crew per aircraft, give or take?

Regional & Short-haul ~ 6 pair min.
Medium Haul ~ 9-12
Long Haul / ULH ~ 13-16
Much of this depends heavily on whether the company runs an efficiency / optimisation / bidding program... such as Kronos which works well... unless its Alerts are constantly overridden :ugh:

[PoppaJo]

Silkair machines. Due from this week. MSNs 44222, 44223, 44224, 44225, 44226, 44232 and 44233

[Logan31]

Any plans for Virgin L/H to start up anytime in the future?

[1A_Please]

Any plans for Virgin L/H to start up anytime in the future?
The distant future may see some 787s doing LH but we are talking about the distant future. You wouldn't want to hold your breath.

[Hothighhungover]

The distant future may see some 787s doing LH but we are talking about the distant future. You wouldn't want to hold your breath.
Thats just your opinion right? Or is there a reference somewhere?

[1A_Please]

Thats just your opinion right? Or is there a reference somewhere?
Both Scurrah (when he was around) and Hrdlicka have indicated over the past year a desire to eventually return to some long-haul operations (probably just LAX and HND) but they believed international would come back slowly which has turned out to be correct.

The 77Ws went back to their mortgagors as part of administration whilst the A332s were returned to lessors. The 77W was too big for VA's needs and they have indicated that something like the 789 would probably be more suitable for their requirements in future particularly as it would be flexible to do both HND and LAX.

Do I believe that VA will return to long-haul? I don't know. It certainly isn't the most important thing they should address with getting their core domestic franchise profitable being where they need to concentrate their minds once state borders reliably reopen.

[KRUSTY 34]

With regard to the former Long Haul crew...

Have any been offered positions in the new entity?

[slice]

Krusty, yes as per the seniority list from the top (Group Date Of Joining). 88 positions published (44 Capt 44 FO). Some are now in training. A few 737 crew (who were not compulsory redundancy) bailed last year for REX and Alliance (Ejet) along with a few ex LH at those operators. Some other redundant crew are in Pionair(146), a few on bizjets, instructing, GA etc. But I would say the bulk of the 900 total redundant last year are probably not in a flying role, which should not surprise you.

[KRUSTY 34]

Thanks slice.

Sad Times for many still.

[Logan31]

If L/H crew take the 73 slots…if L/H were to restart would they have first go at those slots or would it go to the next people on the GDOJ list?

[Bumble_Pilot]

All bidding goes off the GDOJ list and if they take a 73 spot, they’re type Frozen.

[Goat Whisperer]

All bidding goes off the GDOJ list and if they take a 73 spot, they’re type Frozen.

Partially correct there. Bidding is in accordance with the GDOJ but pilots are not frozen to the 737 unless they're in a tiny minority to have never flown the type before (ie E Jet to A330).

[ANstar]

Any plans for Virgin L/H to start up anytime in the future?
I reckon they need to get domestic profitable first and then IPO (and Bain exiting) before longhaul gets a look.