A new low for the NZ Justice System

[KiwiAvi8er]

Unbelievable.

A sex pest/child groomer spared a conviction so he can become a pilot. Hopefully this still shows up on his fit and proper check.

No conviction for sex offender wanting to become a pilot.


http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12440568

[rjtjrt]

I think the Judge should have some skin in the game - eg if the person re-offends the Judge gets demoted to a lower court, or some such.

[Squawk7700]

Having spent time working in the legal system, I can understand that a conviction is not always a good thing. If a conviction means that you can’t get a decent job for the rest of your life, it will mean that the chances of reoffending or escalation of the crime type are far more likely. It’s a vicious cycle really. Many career paths need a clean criminal record check. The fact that he has a supporting family has has completed the community work etc is a good thing.

The downside is that there is still a victim of the crime, however whether or not the offender is convicted won’t change the outcome for the victim.

In this case, a suspended sentence with no conviction would probably be the best course of action, however it’s not possible. There aren’t many other options that will please the public and the victim in the longer term.

[RichardJones]

The law is an ass, period. What about the poor victims and how has has destroyed their lives, to a large or lesser degree.

Most of the judges are totally out of touch with reality. God is the real judge, as mankind is totally fallible, therefore a lot of decisions are seriously flawed. So well demonstrated in this case.

As for name suppression, it seems to be fashionable now in NZ.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Having spent time working in the legal system, I can understand that a conviction is not always a good thing. If a conviction means that you can’t get a decent job for the rest of your life, it will mean that the chances of reoffending or escalation of the crime type are far more likely. It’s a vicious cycle really. Many career paths need a clean criminal record check. The fact that he has a supporting family has has completed the community work etc is a good thing.

The downside is that there is still a victim of the crime, however whether or not the offender is convicted won’t change the outcome for the victim.

In this case, a suspended sentence with no conviction would probably be the best course of action, however it’s not possible. There aren’t many other options that will please the public and the victim in the longer term.

Fair point. Can’t say I’d be happy if in 15+ years, the guy has an airline job and is dealing with unaccompanied minors and kids on flight deck visits. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have a career going forward but he’s obviously not suitable for a position of responsibility.

[dash34]

Stick him in freight if he wants to fly.

[TBM-Legend]

Having spent time working in the legal system, I can understand that a conviction is not always a good thing. If a conviction means that you can’t get a decent job for the rest of your life, it will mean that the chances of reoffending or escalation of the crime type are far more likely. It’s a vicious cycle really. Many career paths need a clean criminal record check. The fact that he has a supporting family has has completed the community work etc is a good thing.

The downside is that there is still a victim of the crime, however whether or not the offender is convicted won’t change the outcome for the victim.

In this case, a suspended sentence with no conviction would probably be the best course of action, however it’s not possible. There aren’t many other options that will please the public and the victim in the longer term.


Very simple think before you act or do the crime and do the time!

[PoppaJo]

What would the lawyers say should I be the CP and ‘find out’ about such events, then sack him?

[De_flieger]

What would the lawyers say should I be the CP and ‘find out’ about such events, then sack him?
Probably something along the lines of "so you fired someone for something they were not convicted for, and for matters where their identity was suppressed by the courts in relation to those allegations. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars can you scrape together by tomorrow morning for the compensation payout?"

[911slf]

If I understood this report correctly the offender is 20 now but was 17 when the offences took place in 2018. They were basically the swapping of nude photos. Probably 40% of teenagers do this. The threat to share them makes it more serious, of course.

How far do we take this 'never forget, never forgive' business? I know of someone who was not able to stand for election as a police commissioner in his sixties because when he was 14 he was prosecuted for trespassing on the railway.

[Octane]

Kiwi,

If it's a new low, implying it's not the first, maybe you should migrate. Try Pakistan..

[KiwiAvi8er]

If I understood this report correctly the offender is 20 now but was 17 when the offences took place in 2018. They were basically the swapping of nude photos. Probably 40% of teenagers do this. The threat to share them makes it more serious, of course.

How far do we take this 'never forget, never forgive' business? I know of someone who was not able to stand for election as a police commissioner in his sixties because when he was 14 he was prosecuted for trespassing on the railway.

It wasn’t just a “threat” to share them. He did.

And you seem to gloss over the sexual assault on a 14 yr old boy by summing this up as “basically the swapping of nude photos”.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Kiwi,

If it's a new low, implying it's not the first, maybe you should migrate. Try Pakistan..

It’s not the first slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, no. Usually it’s sports players beating up there missus or drink driving but getting spared a conviction so they can carry on their career.

That’s the attitude though is it? Try migrate? Maybe the sex offender should try and migrate, do his flight training in Pakistan and try that shenanigans over there.

[packapoo]

It’s not the first slap on the wrist with a wet bus ticket, no. Usually it’s sports players beating up there missus or drink driving but getting spared a conviction so they can carry on their career.

That’s the attitude though is it? Try migrate? Maybe the sex offender should try and migrate, do his flight training in Pakistan and try that shenanigans over there.

Even walking thru a train tunnel these days warrants name suppression.....:ugh:

[kitchen bench]

Where in that article does it say the offender wants to be a pilot? "Chosen future career" is non-specific. Was there something else disclosed/published that indicated his career choice?

As for the penalty of paying $2500 to each victim, I imagine that amount would buy a few hookers and not run the risk of having to plead guilty as a sex offender.

whether or not the offender is convicted won’t change the outcome for the victim.
Does the beak appear to think otherwise with the cash settlement? :rolleyes:.

[dysslexicgod]

Without knowing the actual circumstances of the case and both the victims and offenders it is impossible to come up with anything like a fair and balanced opinion of the judges actions.

Furthermore "digital justice", aka box ticking, is also disastrous for our societies. For example, a quick drunken kiss on New Years eve can result in you being permanently labelled a sex offender, in the list with rapists and kiddy fiddlers for ever. That is unjust, but that and similar travesties are happening every day, look no further than the "domestic violence" industry and its perversion of the AVO process.

[De_flieger]

Without knowing the actual circumstances of the case and both the victims and offenders it is impossible to come up with anything like a fair and balanced opinion of the judges actions.

Furthermore "digital justice", aka box ticking, is also disastrous for our societies. For example, a quick drunken kiss on New Years eve can result in you being permanently labelled a sex offender, in the list with rapists and kiddy fiddlers for ever. That is unjust, but that and similar travesties are happening every day, look no further than the "domestic violence" industry and its perversion of the AVO process.
That's exactly it. People can end up on the sex offenders registry for public urination in some places, and if two sixteen year olds have sex (most places in Australia) that is legal, but if one of them takes a nude photo and sends it to the other then that is distribution and possession of child pornography. This idea of black and white "He's on the sex offender list, therefore ostracize him from society and render him unemployable", is ridiculous. Serious crimes deserve serious punishment, but the limited amount of information in that article makes it looks like a less serious crime, committed by someone under the age of 18 at the time, who is in the process of being hopefully rehabilitated.

[harrryw]

As far as penalty or not that is and should be up to the Judgel. As far as conviction it is a matter of applying the Law......and if the does not like the law he should lobby the parliament to change it.

[KiwiAvi8er]

Where in that article does it say the offender wants to be a pilot? "Chosen future career" is non-specific. Was there something else disclosed/published that indicated his career choice?

As for the penalty of paying $2500 to each victim, I imagine that amount would buy a few hookers and not run the risk of having to plead guilty as a sex offender.


Does the beak appear to think otherwise with the cash settlement? :rolleyes:.

It was in the first run of the story. They’ve now edited it and removed the part about being a prospective pilot.

[Jack D]

There’s always Qantas I suppose ?

[601]

If a conviction means that you can’t get a decent job for the rest of your life, it will mean that the chances of reoffending or escalation of the crime type are far more likely
He made a choice = stiff.

[Squawk7700]

He made a choice = stiff.

Did you ever make a mistake when you were 17? Did you actually realise what it would mean to make a mistake and destroy your career prospects for the rest of your life?

[KiwiAvi8er]

Did you ever make a mistake when you were 17? Did you actually realise what it would mean to make a mistake and destroy your career prospects for the rest of your life?

I get the point you're making but still think thats downplaying the 'hand down the 14 year old's pants'. There's a 'mistake' and then there's that. If the 14 year old was a girl and had been violated like that, against her will, then it starts to sound a lot more serious. (Not suggesting that the gender should matter. Sexual assault = sexual assault)

On a similar note, in the case below I would question whether this individual is suited to employment for a driving role given his 'mistakes'. It doesn't mean he can't do anything with his life but certain events should have consequences. If he was to plough through a vehicle, driving a truck under the influence in 10 years time and I lost family members, the fact that there were warning signs 'hidden' from his employer would make it even harder to take.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/124303863/drinkdriver-caught-doing-103kmh-in-50kmh-zone-tells-judge-he-wants-to-be-a-professional-driver-escapes-conviction

[kitchen bench]

Did you ever make a mistake when you were 17? Did you actually realise what it would mean to make a mistake and destroy your career prospects for the rest of your life?Would you have the same generous attitude if it was your child that had been sexually assaulted? I’d be surprised if you were.

Once might be a “mistake” (with the emphasis on “might”) but three times, as per the article, is deliberate, intentional and perhaps, even, premeditated. The victims have to live with that for the rest of their lives but old mate pays his $5000, has his name suppressed and gets on with life as though not much happened. Justice, amongst other things, encompasses accountability but I see little of that here.

It seems to me that "my career will be ruined" is a convenient ploy to avoid proper accountability. If a defendant didn't plead that a career was at stake, having committed a similar offence, would they get off so lightly?

[Squawk7700]

Would you have the same generous attitude if it was your child that had been sexually assaulted? I’d be surprised if you were.

Once might be a “mistake” (with the emphasis on “might”) but three times, as per the article, is deliberate, intentional and perhaps, even, premeditated. The victims have to live with that for the rest of their lives but old mate pays his $5000, has his name suppressed and gets on with life as though not much happened. Justice, amongst other things, encompasses accountability but I see little of that here.

It seems to me that "my career will be ruined" is a convenient ploy to avoid proper accountability. If a defendant didn't plead that a career was at stake, having committed a similar offence, would they get off so lightly?

I have children, but I also have an intimate knowledge and experience within the justice system (not as a crook), so I understand why things happen the way that they do.

If you lock him up now, he will statistically be more likely to offend again later and more severely.

There’s a lot of criminals in this world and multiple in your street, but what you don’t know, won’t hurt you. It’s just the sad reality of this world. You can’t lock everyone up as we can’t afford to fund the prisons. Then if we do, they will start manufacturing products and put legitimate businesses out of business and the cycle continues.

[kitchen bench]

I have children, but I also have an intimate knowledge and experience within the justice system (not as a crook), so I understand why things happen the way that they do.

Doesn't answer either of my questions!!

I wasn't advocating to lock him up, not necessary. I said accountability and that could have been achieved with a conviction. No gaol time would dispense with the expense you're concerned with. He did, after all, plead guilty to 5 serious charges.

they will start manufacturing products and put legitimate businesses out of business and the cycle continues.

What utter rubbish.

[Squawk7700]

What utter rubbish.

My local prison for starters, started manufacturing horse rugs and other accessories and put two out of three local saddleries out of business. Many sre
of course a privately run business of course!

If you knew what was manufactured in the prison system you would understand and it’s not just number plates and stamp glue!

I digress, this is in no way related to aviation.

[dysslexicgod]

+1 to Squawk.

kitchen Bench, you have no idea of the intimate details of the case, nor do you have any idea of the consequences of a conviction.

It's uninformed attitudes like yours and the tabloid press that feeds you these ideas that does so much damage to society.

Principle #1 - Equal sentences do not produce equal justice. That is why mandatory sentencing is such a disaster.

Principle #2 - In the digital age with a binary decision making system, there is no room for "Yes, but" - extenuating circumstances don't fit the decision making systems these days. Once you are labelled a sex offender for example , there is no difference to the system whether you are a violent rapist or someone caught having a pee behind a tree.

Judges hate people with rigid attitudes suchas yours and the press who feed you. What now happens in some cases is that the judge and jury and even the prosecution have to tie themselves in knots to try and deliver a just outcome despite a rigid and uncompromising inflexible system. That often means that people are NOT convicted of what they should be but instead get a lesser charge that produces a more just result.

If a policeman has ever "dropped' a few KMH from your speeding ticket for you being cooperative, you have just experienced the above.

[witwiw]

put two out of three local saddleries out of business

If that was the case that another manufacturer put two saddleries out of business then it'd be a possibility that those other businesses weren't that strong and it was only a matter of time.

If you knew what was manufactured in the prison system you would understand

Enlighten everyone. I'll admit to being one that doesn't "understand".

[Squawk7700]

If that was the case that another manufacturer put two saddleries out of business then it'd be a possibility that those other businesses weren't that strong and it was only a matter of time.

It’s easy to run a successful business and destroy your opposition when you get your labour compliments of the government for the cost of a prison commissary account.


https://www.corrections.sa.gov.au/prison-industries/sample-products-and-items-made

[witwiw]

Do they sell direct to the public or do they supply businesses with these products?