Covid Shot - Side Effects?

[Square Bear]

mattyj

you got me.....your sarcasm and irony noted, and done well!,

[machtuk]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1424x1688/image_b6f69e55326a5c7e37512f99864100b60b698236.jpeg
This says it all!.....lab rats!

[TimmyTee]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1424x1688/image_b6f69e55326a5c7e37512f99864100b60b698236.jpeg
This says it all!.....lab rats!
Fully agree - if you end up with full blown covid after we open up again post vaccine rollout, you are literally a lab rat, with absolutely no guarantees of what will happen to you next

[ChrisJ800]

I believe the stats show that its mostly females getting the AZ associated clots so why not offer Pfizer to Females and let us blokes keep going with the cheap but less effective one? As mentioned earlier I (male) had no effect after my AZ but my wife had to take 2 days off work and took a week to fully recover after her AZ. We had the shots the same time.

[megle2]

Day 3 no worries for me but partner down for the count, coming good after 24 hours

[chookcooker]

Why would those who claim to have made a personal choice not to take the vaccine, come and post on a thread that clearly is intended for those who've had the jab to share side effect info?
cos antivaxers are like vegans

[Foxxster]

It seems the European declarations regarding the dangers of the AZ vaccine were started by Macron in France who apparently has been reading up on viruses and vaccines and now considers himself a world-leading expert.
As far as I know he's got no scientific background or training but Merkel immediately agreed with him and I believe she is a qualified scientist of some sort.


awful lot of politics involved with Europe’s response. Macron was also hoping the French Pasteur Institute vaccine would be viable. It turned out to be a dud. His attitude towards other vaccines, particularly AstraZeneca changed. Vaccine rollouts in parts of the EU, Germany notably, was also a shambles. Having a nice big distraction in the form of AstraZeneca was very welcome. Remember the seizure of AstraZeneca destined for the UK, then it became the blood clotting vaccine then they wanted it again… The EU response has been disgraceful. Oh and the EU, run by Germany telling all EU countries they had to order vaccines through the EU only, then they (Germany) order millions of doses on the side outside the EU ordering process. And so on and so on…

there is another French vaccine that is undergoing clinical trials now and is meant to be variant proof. So maybe if that looks like succeeding we will see Macron ramping up anti AstraZeneca rhetoric again.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/26/french-self-esteem-hit-after-pasteur-institute-abandons-covid-vaccine

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-07/valneva-covid-vaccine-french-shot-supposedly-variant-proof/100124708 (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/26/french-self-esteem-hit-after-pasteur-institute-abandons-covid-vaccine)

[Gnadenburg]

Interesting developments in Israel over the last week with ramifications plaguing our way forward. Israel is well worth following as it doesn't make the news down this way and they look at least six months ahead of us.

55% of their population vaccinated and the latest Delta outbreaks being spread by children at schools. Vaccinated adults are testing positive. First indications are vaccinations are still highly effective in combating the outbreak and reducing the seriousness of COVID. What worries me is if the data not captured nor presented properly, fuelling media and elements of the population to carry on with their vibe, putting in jeopardy vaccination efforts.

If one of these COVID variants starts afflicting children, with long term health damage or fatalities, attitudes to vaccinations would change. The panic entirely predictable.

[mattyj]

The moderators are deleting posts on this thread that don’t meet some sort of parameter which is an issue with chat rooms and blog sites the world over..information is being funnelled to the genpop along a set of murky criteria which haven’t allowed and won’t allow a real discussion on the merits of these vaccines or even what this virus really is and whether the dirty spectre of money and power is involved. I doubt the data from Israel and their vaccination status and it’s failures will ever get to the average man on the street here

[Chuck Canuck]

Pprune is a disgrace nowadays.

no discussions allowed on 4 BA pilots who keeled over.

utter disgrace.

RIP

RIP PPrune too😤

[Gnadenburg]

I doubt the data from Israel and their vaccination status and it’s failures will ever get to the average man on the street here

If it was one big conspiracy, the facts released in Israel that vaccinated adults are catching COVID, would be drowned-out by state security.

Social Media is loaded with fake news. Some of it state sponsored. I gave up taking people seriously here, when their links backing their views were so obviously uncorroborated, it was embarrassing.

Never heard of the BA pilots so had a bit of a look. Not sure how their families would feel seeing professional colleagues peddling unsubstantiated conspiracies that go counterintuitive with what the public expects of the profession.

[Xeptu]

If one of these COVID variants starts afflicting children, with long term health damage or fatalities, attitudes to vaccinations would change. The panic entirely predictable.

Is already happening in Brazil, about 1500 children and pregnant women apparently. I fear it's only a matter of time until this virus mutates with something really serious like rabies.

[ozbiggles]

Pprune is a disgrace nowadays.

no discussions allowed on 4 BA pilots who keeled over.

utter disgrace.

RIP

RIP PPrune too😤

What exactly were you going to debate? An unsubstantiated internet rumour that has no basis in facts? Just because what you thought was a 'fact' to support the tin foil brigade turned out to be nothing but the internet running amok with what was already a tragic story blew up in your face? Well hopefully you chuck the toys out too.

[mattyj]

Lockdowns and now vaccinations are an anathema to dealing with a pandemic during the middle of the pandemic. You don’t vaccinate while the virus is still spreading because that encourages mutations, and you don’t quarantine the young and healthy when there is no danger to the young and healthy because you slow or stop potential herd immunity. If there are dangerous mutations we have no one to blame but ourselves.

[SOPS]

Lockdowns and now vaccinations are an anathema to dealing with a pandemic during the middle of the pandemic. You don’t vaccinate while the virus is still spreading because that encourages mutations, and you don’t quarantine the young and healthy when there is no danger to the young and healthy because you slow or stop potential herd immunity. If there are dangerous mutations we have no one to blame but ourselves.
You don’t make any sense.

[chookcooker]

Please give an example of mutations emerging from highly vaccinated populations to counter the half dozen that emerged from unvaccinated populations.

[mattyj]

That’s not the point..a haphazard vaccination program in the middle or to the end of an outbreak encourages mutations..it’s standard practice to vaccinate prior to an outbreak..this is normal epidemiological understanding

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210331/Asymmetrical-vaccine-distribution-could-promote-vaccine-evading-mutations-in-SARS-CoV-2.aspx

[Gnadenburg]

Glanced at your link. Could happen, maybe could happen? What was telling was this at the end-

"How unequal vaccine distribution promotes the evolution of vaccine escape"

Another political agenda skinny on fact, though loaded on fear.

Did I mention Australia's response to COVID 19 a catastrophic civil defence failure? How will the public, local government, state government and the federal government react to complex pressure, agenda and coercion from the CCP? Never has our way of life ever been so threatened by the stupidity our freedoms can sometimes fuel.

[ozbiggles]

Glanced at your link. Could happen, maybe could happen? What was telling was this at the end-

"How unequal vaccine distribution promotes the evolution of vaccine escape"

Another political agenda skinny on fact, though loaded on fear.

Did I mention Australia's response to COVID 19 a catastrophic civil defence failure? How will the public, local government, state government and the federal government react to complex pressure, agenda and coercion from the CCP? Never has our way of life ever been so threatened by the stupidity our freedoms can sometimes fuel.

It is a tough competition but I think this is probably the dumbest post I have seen on PPRuNe, particularly this line:
'Did I mention Australia's response to COVID 19 a catastrophic civil defence failure?".
It may not have suited you your royal highness but the fact we don't have the rates of death and infection other countries do and the fact our economy looks pretty good compared to any other country is an outstanding result in terms of dealing with a 1 in a hundred year event. Nothing is perfect but I would put Australia's response up against any other country.

[chookcooker]

That’s not the point..a haphazard vaccination program in the middle or to the end of an outbreak encourages mutations..it’s standard practice to vaccinate prior to an outbreak..this is normal epidemiological understanding

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210331/Asymmetrical-vaccine-distribution-could-promote-vaccine-evading-mutations-in-SARS-CoV-2.aspx

well if a graduate with a Batchelor of Science from Manchester Metropolitan University (ranked about 830 in the world) says so (or says “might”)

[Gnadenburg]

Ozbiggles

It should be a confronting issue though I suggest you open your mind rather than take to abuse.

Australia raised its drawbridge and locked out its citizens. A simple option afforded to a country with geographical advantage in what you say is a one in a hundred year event. Simple geographical advantage protected us from other "one in hundred year events" such as the Depression and rise of Fascism, WW2, the Rise of Communism etc.

Now we are dealing with the Rise of China with well placed sources saying war is inevitable- hopefully not though fiercer coercion is! COVID 19 has provided a dress rehearsal for Australia's vulnerability from a civil defence perspective.

So moving away from that Aussie need for a Gold Star, pat on the back, or perhaps the Oztronaut attitude in aviation parlance, how well have we gone from a civil defence perspective? We had better quarantine in sailing ship days and we have learnt nothing in over a year. Inconsistencies across the States in lockdowns and closures doesn't augur well in hybrid, or full blown confrontation with China, where supply lines are scarce or strained ( eg: fuel and medicines ) . Now the vaccination roll-out is nothing short of a disaster from a country that simply raised its drawbridge and is locked toward an election with no leadership beyond popularism out of COVID. The poor vaccination roll-out and in some way evidenced by this thread, has shown our governments have no idea how to educate and promote an essential health program, which from a civil defence perspective, presents vulnerabilities to CCP political interference and internet influencers eg: fake news and disinformation campaigns.


The "pretty good" economy? That's what has proven most vulnerable during COVID when looking forward to civil defence challenges and confrontation. We've pulled the trigger as have most countries, record stimulus and debt, driving commodity demand to our advantage. Can we pull the trigger again? For the next "one in a hundred year event" ? How great will our economy look when needing to re-arm whilst setting up to fight our biggest trading partner? What if the USA is pushed out of the Pacific or draws a line East of Guam?

Australia is spoilt by fortune afforded to few. When analysed, I would not dare put up its COVID response as a success, even with your throw away line that "nothing is perfect".

[mattyj]

Every western country has a pandemic preparedness document of some sort which no doubt takes information from all the big epidemiological names, and at big expense to the taxpayers..I’m not sure how it has been in Australia but in this country and in the United States and I’m reliably informed, the UK, that document has not as yet been dusted off. The response has been completely bespoke and in many cases, contrary to previous understanding.

This ‘winging it’ is very puzzling.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Ozbiggles

Australia is spoilt by fortune afforded to few. When analysed, I would not dare put up its COVID response as a success, even with your throw away line that "nothing is perfect".

Well said Gnadenburg.

[kiwi grey]

I had my second Pfizer jab on the weekend.
My arm was a bit sore that evening so I took a couple each of Paracetamol and Ibuprofen tablets before bedtime.
Discomfort / tenderness gone by the next afternoon, that was the only symptom
:ok:

[Chris2303]

I had my second Pfizer jab on the weekend.
My arm was a bit sore that evening so I took a couple each of Paracetamol and Ibuprofen tablets before bedtime.
Discomfort / tenderness gone by the next afternoon, that was the only symptom
:ok:

I had my second shot on Monday. Sore arm because she found my injured tendon with the needle but that went in a day or so. Slight lethargy on Tuesday.

Easy experience

[jolihokistix]

The Japanese government has for the very first time today officially stated that Ibuprofen, Paracetamol/Acetaminophen and Loxoprofen are equally recommended for treatment of post-vaccination flu-like symptoms such as headache and high temperature.

(Until now there has been an extremely long silence... with most people buying up Paracetamol/Acetaminophen in the absence of any guidance or advice.)

[galdian]

The Japanese government has for the very first time today officially stated that Ibuprofen, Paracetamol/Acetaminophen and Loxoprofen are equally recommended for treatment of post-vaccination flu-like symptoms such as headache and high temperature.

(Until now there has been an extremely long silence... with most people buying up Paracetamol/Acetaminophen in the absence of any guidance or advice.)

But the 2020 Olympics are still going ahead - what else matters?? :ok:

[jolihokistix]

But the 2020 Olympics are still going ahead - what else matters?? :ok:
Ouch... ... ...

[dr dre]

The Japanese government has for the very first time today officially stated that Ibuprofen, Paracetamol/Acetaminophen and Loxoprofen are equally recommended for treatment of post-vaccination flu-like symptoms such as headache and high temperature.

(Until now there has been an extremely long silence... with most people buying up Paracetamol/Acetaminophen in the absence of any guidance or advice.)

Theres nothing unusual or conspiratorial about that. Australian Federal and State Departments of Health have always recommend taking Ibuprofen or Paracetamol post any vaccination if fever is encountered. That’s just your immune system going to work creating antibodies.

[Right20deg]

I applaud the various religious and cultural leaders here in the UK for pleading with their own ethnic groups to get vaccinated and quickly. All this with the constant noise from the anti vacc brigade with a rapidly rising Cov19 Delta variant that will only get worse as winter comes and a new virus takes off again. A crazed Uk media does nothing to assist this process.

[jolihokistix]

Nothing unusual about waiting well over a year during a pandemic to utter any pronouncement or guidance to the people?

By default, the manufacturers of paracetomol/acetaminophen will have been raking in the profits meanwhile. Now the drugstore shelves have suddenly been rearranged here to display all three on an equal footing, since yesterday.

[cessnapete]

BA does not control how their crews are vaccinated, or not. Vaccination is not compulsory in the UK. Each crew member has made their own choice. But I would imagine as intelligent and responsible persons, all will have been offered the jab by our NHS, and the vast majority will have been fully vaccinated by now.

The 4 crew members dying shortly after a c19 jab report, is unsubstantiated anti-vaccination on-line rubbish.

The medical data on the blood clots risk is many magnitudes less than the risk of the Birth Control Pill. . Haven’t seen much evidence of that being banned worldwide.

[Right20deg]

Cessnapete,
Exactly Sir..

[Australopithecus]

I had the Astra Zeneca vaccine and had about two hours of mild chills after the first dose, nothing after the second. The only lasting side- effect is that I now feel slightly smug, and my attitude toward border closures has reversed. I wonder if that will wear off?

[jolihokistix]

Hmmm... the Pfizer did not give me any smugness. Nothing at all has changed. I still wear a mask in public and sanitize/wash my hands. The other day I walked into the car dealer and was surrounded by bowing staff. "Please use the sanitizer, sir." Suddenly I remembered that I was the only one not wearing a mask, so hurriedly I pulled it out and put it on. "Thank you," said the lady quietly, guiding me to to the waiting lounge. "'I've had both my shots!" I added hopefully, making a jabbing motion at my upper arm. She looked blankly at me.

The fact of the double-jab does however hold out hope that future border crossings will be rendered somehow easier.

[Willie Nelson]

Hmmm... the Pfizer did not give me any smugness. Nothing at all has changed. I still wear a mask in public and sanitize/wash my hands. The other day I walked into the car dealer and was surrounded by bowing staff. "Please use the sanitizer, sir." Suddenly I remembered that I was the only one not wearing a mask, so hurriedly I pulled it out and put it on. "Thank you," said the lady quietly, guiding me to to the waiting lounge. "'I've had both my shots!" I added hopefully, making a jabbing motion at my upper arm. She looked blankly at me.

The fact of the double-jab does however hold out hope that future border crossings will be rendered somehow easier.

I know right. I'm telling people that I'm vaccinated too in the hope that it gives them confidence but nobody trusts anyone these days. We need a universal proof on a drivers licence perhaps that states that you are either vaccinated or are medically exempt from being vaccinated. We have similar requirements for schools all the world over......even in Florida....Ron de Santis.

[Chris2303]

In NZ they give you a vaccination card that shows the dates and the batch number

[pulse1]

One of the most publicised and nasty side effects of the AZ vaccine has been blood clots. There is now growing evidence that this may be due to the very occasional vaccination penetrating the blood directly. This can be avoided by aspirating the vaccination process by slightly withdrawing the plunger to check for evidence of blood. Apparently this is usually standard practice but it is deemed by the WHO and most national authorities to be unnecessary. The following link explains it far better than I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lx6Scwfhg&t=6s

Perhaps we should be campaigning to include aspiration. It may save lives at negligible cost.

[ShyTorque]

In NZ they give you a vaccination card that shows the dates and the batch number

I’m in U.K. and have the same.

[dr dre]

One of the most publicised and nasty side effects of the AZ vaccine has been blood clots. There is now growing evidence that this may be due to the very occasional vaccination penetrating the blood directly. This can be avoided by aspirating the vaccination process by slightly withdrawing the plunger to check for evidence of blood. Apparently this is usually standard practice but it is deemed by the WHO and most national authorities to be unnecessary. The following link explains it far better than I can.

Perhaps we should be campaigning to include aspiration. It may save lives at negligible cost.

That doesn’t account for the fact that blood clots from the second dose of AstraZeneca are substantially less than the first, about 1/10th with (I believe) no recorded deaths anywhere in the world. If the aspiration theory had substance then there would be a similar number of adverse reactions as the first dose. There doesn’t seem to be concrete evidence that method is the reason for the clots, just a theory which one nation acted on, and no follow up studies to see it it made a difference.

[Derfred]

... with (I believe) no recorded deaths anywhere in the world.

Here is the UK data:

“Up to 23 June 2021, the MHRA had received Yellow Card reports of 395 cases of major thromboembolic events (blood clots) with concurrent thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts) in the UK following vaccination with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca. Thirty four of the 395 reports have been reported after a second dose. Of the 395 reports, 206 occurred in women, and 186 occurred in men aged from 18 to 93 years. The overall case fatality rate was 18% with 70 deaths, five of which occurred after the second dose.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

[DarrylO]

A colleague just had the Pfizer first shot and was bed ridden for a week. I thought he might have actual Covid so I got tested after talking with him. But results of mine came back negative.

[Sector3]

Here is the UK data:

“Up to 23 June 2021, the MHRA had received Yellow Card reports of 395 cases of major thromboembolic events (blood clots) with concurrent thrombocytopenia (low platelet counts) in the UK following vaccination with COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca. Thirty four of the 395 reports have been reported after a second dose. Of the 395 reports, 206 occurred in women, and 186 occurred in men aged from 18 to 93 years. The overall case fatality rate was 18% with 70 deaths, five of which occurred after the second dose.”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting

Selective copying of information again. Why not include the rest of the article?

"The MHRA has received 439 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 936 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, five for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 23 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the vaccines has increased rapidly and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in the deaths."

[Derfred]

Selective copying of information again. Why not include the rest of the article?

"The MHRA has received 439 UK reports of suspected ADRs to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in which the patient died shortly after vaccination, 936 reports for the COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, five for the COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna and 23 where the brand of vaccine was unspecified. The majority of these reports were in elderly people or people with underlying illness. Usage of the vaccines has increased rapidly and as such, so has reporting of fatal events with a temporal association with vaccination however, this does not indicate a link between vaccination and the fatalities reported. Review of individual reports and patterns of reporting does not suggest the vaccines played a role in the deaths."

You haven’t read carefully enough.

The 5 deaths reported in my quote were specifically thrombocytopenia, which has been directly linked to the AZ vaccine, and these 5 deaths were following a second dose.

Thrombocytopenia is normally such a rare condition that the spike in thrombocytopenia following AZ is now undisputedly linked to the vaccine.

The deaths in your quote are not all necessarily linked to a vaccine, as noted in the sentence prior to your bolded sentence.

I was specifically responding to dr dre who said he believed there had been zero thrombocytopenia deaths following a second AZ dose. I merely point out that there is data for such deaths, and the data indicates that slightly over 90% of the deaths occurred after a first dose (65), and slightly under 10% after a second dose (5).

If people want to conduct their own risk management, they need the data, or they need a trusted GP.

The UK data therefore indicates a risk of 5 in 20M, (or 1 in 4M), if you survived the first dose of AZ and are considering a second dose. Your risk may be higher if you are younger.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Added to that they recently found out that the spike protein used to stimulate the antibodies needed to fight the virus doesn't stay in the arm as most vaccines do. It travels around the body, crosses the brain-blood barrier and collects in the major organs and especially in the ovaries. That's all I'm saying. You can look the rest up and draw your own conclusions.

[MickG0105]

You haven’t read carefully enough.

The 5 deaths reported in my quote were specifically thrombocytopenia, which has been directly linked to the AZ vaccine, and these 5 deaths were following a second dose.

Thrombocytopenia is normally such a rare condition that the spike in thrombocytopenia following AZ is now undisputedly linked to the vaccine.

The deaths in your quote are not all necessarily linked to a vaccine, as noted in the sentence prior to your bolded sentence.

I was specifically responding to dr dre who said he believed there had been zero thrombocytopenia deaths following a second AZ dose. I merely point out that there is data for such deaths, and the data indicates that slightly over 90% of the deaths occurred after a first dose (65), and slightly under 10% after a second dose (5).

If people want to conduct their own risk management, they need the data, or they need a trusted GP.

The UK data therefore indicates a risk of 5 in 20M, (or 1 in 4M), if you survived the first dose of AZ and are considering a second dose. Your risk may be higher if you are younger.
So based on the UK data of some 70 deaths from over 20 million administrations you can conclude that the AstraZeneca vaccine is 99.99965 percent safe with regards to fatalities arising from thrombocytopenia.

And when you say, 'if you survived the first dose of AZ', again based on the data, there is a 99.999675 percent chance that you would have 'survived' that first dose.

[Derfred]

So based on the UK data of some 70 deaths from over 20 million administrations you can conclude that the AstraZeneca vaccine is 99.99965 percent safe with regards to fatalities arising from thrombocytopenia.

And when you say, 'if you survived the first dose of AZ', again based on the data, there is a 99.999675 percent chance that you would have 'survived' that first dose.

Correct, my friend.

[mattyj]

Your GP or even your average specialist or surgeon doesn’t have to and isn’t required to, study data analysis or statistics as part of their qualifications. They can as a minor subject if they do choose but it’s not a focus subject.

As such they are not better placed to decide facts from the information available than you or me. I have done a minor statistics paper or 2 during my science degree but I despair at the deliberately confusing, misleading and erroneous manner in which Covid data has been disseminated. The media has been atrocious for making hysterical analysis for goodness knows what purpose.

I surmise that at this point, with the bone headed skewing of information by the internet search and social media organisations, and the manipulation of data, the man on the street has zero chance of coming to an informed decision about any Covid information or vaccine information either.

[Derfred]

That’s why I’m bringing the UK data to our attention.

Our government hasn’t done so. If they did, at least those of us with some basic analysis ability would be able to determine the risk.

All we get from our government is phrases like “low” or “rare”. How the hell do we work with that?

[MickG0105]

Your GP or even your average specialist or surgeon doesn’t have to and isn’t required to, study data analysis or statistics as part of their qualifications. They can as a minor subject if they do choose but it’s not a focus subject.

That's not correct. Statistics is a compulsory unit for Medicine. Graduates, regardless of subsequent speciality, must be able to understand p-values, hazard ratios, median overall survival rates and the like.

However, it's not like we're trying to solve the Behrens-Fisher problem here. Frankly, you don't need much beyond year 12 maths to work your way through this stuff - it's all fairly basic.


As such they are not better placed to decide facts from the information available than you or me.
Mmm ... I think that a far better understanding than most of the underlying bio-chemistry and physiology and the relationship between prior and current medical conditions and the predisposition to adverse outcomes probably makes them somewhat better placed. You can argue about how much better placed.

The media has been atrocious for making hysterical analysis for goodness knows what purpose.

Their purpose is to sell papers, accumulate views, generate comments and the like. 'The sky is falling' tends to play better in that regard than 'Everything's fine'.

And it's not just the media - that little stunt by the Queensland CMO the other day was as shameful as you're likely to see.

[iluvreserve]

But after my second Pfizer shot, I have been having chest palpitations and periods of irregular heartbeat.
with the covid backlog, getting any clear diagnosis will take quite a while.
I called and described my symptoms and a visit was scheduled.
I went in for the visit and that doctor, quite young, did say that a wrist check of my heart beat was indeed a bit irregular. Blood pressure was all she checked and it was fine. She said she’d schedule an ecg and a blood test.
I went in for an ecg a week later and the f..er was on time and normal. I asked if they wanted me to do some exercise for a stress test and they said, no, they are limited to a 30 minute slot and much of it was used up with questions before getting wired up.
they keep asking if I am experiencing any chest pain. I have to say, no, but some very strange pounding which might be described as palpitations, but no pain.
I went in for the blood test and later that week, a different doctor said everything looked fine other than my cholesterol was a tad high. She said she’d arrange a consultation​​​​​.
I called back the same day, with a question that had arisen after my talking to her and thinking about what she had said.
another doctor called back later that evening saying things were not good with the blood test and that she is prescribing statins immediately. A bit concerned by the different interpretations of the same data.
phone consultation now scheduled for may 22.
I have asked each time for a 24 hour heart monitor but they keep saying, not yet. But if you feel any pain in your chest, call 111! Have a nice day!
frustrating that with each call and visit, it is a complete stranger.
no longer flying, difficult to afford a full private cardiac consultant.
again, no guarantee that this is related to the vaccine shots, but I have never had any cardio issue until after the second shot.
and not enough information yet, to rule out the only significant change that might be the major factor.
have been advised to say that there is “pain”
Jury still out on doing that just to get a bit more priority.

Hi 70 Mustang- So sorry to hear of your experience(s!). Any update on your situation; was there any proven link to the vaccine? Thanks!

[Angle of Attack]

My Side effects weren’t too bad, just felt like I downed a carton of beer and woke up in a bush in someone’s garden, in the rain……

[ScepticalOptomist]

My Side effects weren’t too bad, just felt like I downed a carton of beer and woke up in a bush in someone’s garden, in the rain……

Ahh, Sunday mornings from a misspent youth….. :}

[common cents]

None of these vaccines have been approved. All of them have been given emergency use authorisation.
Legal liability out the window. A formal approval typically requires long term safety data ie a late stage phase 3 dataset. 3 to 5 years.
Clinical trial data presented as relative risk reductions with no real absolute risk reductions . An informed decision would require both. In fact that is now the accepted standard of reporting for any clinical trial of a new intervention.
Vaccine effectiveness from real world data in UK and Israel against Delta strain infection is ~ 70%
Apparently effectiveness against hospitalisation is ~ 90%.
But the hospitalisation rate as seen so far in an unvaccinated population is ~ 10%
So in a cohort of 100000 unvaccinated people assuming a 100% infection rate about 10000 would end up in hospital.
If the same group were vaccinated then about 30000 people would be infected and about 3000 would be in hospital.
So we all risk unknown potentially serious longer term health risks with vaccines so that we may reduce our chances of infection by 30% in a world of 100% infections, which we clearly don’t have,( the real risk reduction could be 1% who knows) with no real difference in our chance of hospitalisation.
If this thread is still going in 3 years I can only hope that we continue to report sore arms and aching muscles and nothing else.
And who knows maybe one or more of these vaccines are approved. Then again....maybe not.
Good luck to all.

[dr dre]

None of these vaccines have been approved. All of them have been given emergency use authorisation.
Legal liability out the window. A formal approval typically requires long term safety data ie a late stage phase 3 dataset. 3 to 5 years.
Clinical trial data presented as relative risk reductions with no real absolute risk reductions . An informed decision would require both. In fact that is now the accepted standard of reporting for any clinical trial of a new intervention.
Vaccine effectiveness from real world data in UK and Israel against Delta strain infection is ~ 70%
Apparently effectiveness against hospitalisation is ~ 90%.
But the hospitalisation rate as seen so far in an unvaccinated population is ~ 10%
So in a cohort of 100000 unvaccinated people assuming a 100% infection rate about 10000 would end up in hospital.
If the same group were vaccinated then about 30000 people would be infected and about 3000 would be in hospital.
So we all risk unknown potentially serious longer term health risks with vaccines so that we may reduce our chances of infection by 30% in a world of 100% infections, which we clearly don’t have,( the real risk reduction could be 1% who knows) with no real difference in our chance of hospitalisation.
If this thread is still going in 3 years I can only hope that we continue to report sore arms and aching muscles and nothing else.
And who knows maybe one or more of these vaccines are approved. Then again....maybe not.
Good luck to all.

Mods can we please delete all anti vaxxer nonsense?,

or at least make it a requirement that any anti vaxxer claim is backed up with evidence from a solid source and not taken out of context to push an agenda?

Vaccine hesitancy and anti-vaxxer lies are only prolonging the pain in our industry.

I’m sick of seeing this rubbish continually being posted which has all been debunked dozens of times already.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Mr Dre - can you post which bits were factually incorrect ?

[Mach E Avelli]

Mods can we please delete all anti vaxxer nonsense?,

or at least make it a requirement that any anti vaxxer claim is backed up with evidence from a solid source and not taken out of context to push an agenda?

Vaccine hesitancy and anti-vaxxer lies are only prolonging the pain in our industry.

I’m sick of seeing this rubbish continually being posted which has all been debunked dozens of times already.

I disagree with shutting down antivaxxers for the same reason I disagree with shutting down religious nutters. The more nonsense they spout the more that intelligent people are alerted to their presence in society. Those stupid enough to follow them eventually get culled by one means or another.
Well I remember back in early primary school, during a diphtheria epidemic two little twins died a horrible death because their moron Jehovah Witness parents would not have them vaccinated. Apparently Jo Ho’s reckon God takes care of these matters and we mere mortals must not mess with his grand plan, whatever that may be.
The twins’ parents ran a hardware store, which everyone then boycotted and so drove them out of business and out of town. I still remember red paint sprayed over their shop window, though don’t remember what was written. Something like ‘murderers’ I imagine.
In the current case of Covid antivaxxers, the punishment meted out by Mother Nature will be when they and/or their loved ones catch the disease, as they surely will.

Sorry... back to thread. Had 1st AZ and no ill-effects. Not even a sore arm. so maybe it was a placebo? 2nd shot next week. I will post here if the microchip blocks the flow to my genitals.

[dr dre]

Mach E Avelli,

The problem is the the tactics anti vaxxers use to trick people is they make their arguments just convincing enough to make people hesitant. If they out and out said “vaccines will make you grow a second head” most people would realise they are nuts.

What they do is dress up their arguments with what just appears to be enough credibility, by taking stats from official sources but using them out of context or not how the authors of the stats intended them to be used.

For instance the post I was replying to contained this statement:

None of these vaccines have been approved. All of them have been given emergency use authorisation.
Legal liability out the window. A formal approval typically requires long term safety data ie a late stage phase 3 dataset. 3 to 5 years.

Sounds sort of official and like the poster knows what they’re talking about, right?

Wrong, it’s debunked nonsense:

Were COVID-19 vaccines rushed through approvals or given emergency use authorisations in Australia? (https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/is-it-true/is-it-true-were-covid-19-vaccines-rushed-through-approvals-or-given-emergency-use-authorisations-in-australia)

Unfortunately a lot of people can’t differentiate between the two, and even on this forum of supposedly professional pilots a lot of posters seem to regurgitate this stuff (assuming they are professional pilots).

[patty50]

Why be so misleading yourself? You’re well informed on this stuff and know that in the land of the free, home of Pfizer, their vaccine only has Emergency abuse Authorization.

The vaccine is provisionally approved here.
Under what conditions will it receive full approval in either country? I would hazard a guess it will come after a few more years of safety data. The TGA and FDA have a wait and see approach, seems reasonable other people might too.

https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine

[Chronic Snoozer]

Unfortunately a lot of people can’t differentiate between the two, and even on this forum of supposedly professional pilots a lot of posters seem to regurgitate this stuff (assuming they are professional pilots).

Surely you realise that professional pilots come in all shapes and sizes, atheist, agnostic and orthodox, intelligent, morally bankrupt and everything in between. Just because this is called a 'professional pilots' network doesn't make the website a go to address for correct information nor does the term convey any special powers of knowledge, social empathy or political astuteness amongst its users. I wouldn't expect a professional pilot to be a habitual drug user, alcoholic or manic depressive but that theory has long been blown out of the water. Attack the argument not the pilot.

But thanks for your work posting links and debunking.

[sumtingwong]

Mods can we please delete all anti vaxxer nonsense?,

We’ve all met individuals like you. Usually for the first time at school, running to the teacher and dobbing about some infraction or other.

Most of these kids grow up. Some don’t, and still run to authority whingeing and sooking because somebody said something they didn’t like. Individuals like you feel they are entitled to dictate to others what they may read and discuss.

[DirectAnywhere]

I just don't get it. You trust science to make aeroplanes fly, but not to make vaccines work.

I'm an expert in my field. I rely on the science of countless aeronautical engineers, structural engineers, powerplant engineers (you get the drift) to tell me how to operate an aeroplane. I'm the end user of a **** ton of science and I apply it accordingly. Passengers don't get to dictate what I do, even though it's their safety on the line.

If medical experts tell me to go and get vaccinated, that's what I'll do, and that's what we should all do.

[RadioSaigon]

Just to get back on-topic…

Had the 1st AZ 4 days ago, 2nd due in ~5 weeks. 1st 12hrs, nada, felt fine. Then got chills, restless sleep, woke up feeling like I had a low-grade flu, no energy. Injection site felt like a bruise.

Next day, sorted, all good. Injection site still a little tender.

Overall, nothing to report here. A non-event. Nothing to fear. Grateful to have a level of protection against this nasty disease, for myself & my family.

[RMP2]

Mach E Avelli,

The problem is the the tactics anti vaxxers use to trick people is they make their arguments just convincing enough to make people hesitant. If they out and out said “vaccines will make you grow a second head” most people would realise they are nuts.

What they do is dress up their arguments with what just appears to be enough credibility, by taking stats from official sources but using them out of context or not how the authors of the stats intended them to be used.

For instance the post I was replying to contained this statement:

None of these vaccines have been approved. All of them have been given emergency use authorisation.
Legal liability out the window. A formal approval typically requires long term safety data ie a late stage phase 3 dataset. 3 to 5 years.

Sounds sort of official and like the poster knows what they’re talking about, right?

Wrong, it’s debunked nonsense:

Were COVID-19 vaccines rushed through approvals or given emergency use authorisations in Australia? (https://www.health.gov.au/initiatives-and-programs/covid-19-vaccines/is-it-true/is-it-true-were-covid-19-vaccines-rushed-through-approvals-or-given-emergency-use-authorisations-in-australia)

Unfortunately a lot of people can’t differentiate between the two, and even on this forum of supposedly professional pilots a lot of posters seem to regurgitate this stuff (assuming they are professional pilots).

As for flying a specific aircraft; your first job is to read the owner’s instruction manual. Here is Pfizer’s : http://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?id=14472&format=pdf

“The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
The FDA has authorized the emergency use of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to prevent COVID-19 in individuals 12 years of age and older under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA).“

”Serious and unexpected side effects may occur. Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials.”

Conclusion: your body, your choice. If anything happens then you’re on your own and nobody will care (not even the government).

[tenretni]

I just don't get it. You trust science to make aeroplanes fly, but not to make vaccines work.

I'm an expert in my field. I rely on the science of countless aeronautical engineers, structural engineers, powerplant engineers (you get the drift) to tell me how to operate an aeroplane. I'm the end user of a **** ton of science and I apply it accordingly. Passengers don't get to dictate what I do, even though it's their safety on the line.

If medical experts tell me to go and get vaccinated, that's what I'll do, and that's what we should all do.

Tell that to all those that perished in the De Havilland Comet.

[On eyre]

As for flying a specific aircraft; your first job is to read the owner’s instruction manual. Here is Pfizer’s : http://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?id=14472&format=pdf

“The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19. There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19.
The FDA has authorized the emergency use of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to prevent COVID-19 in individuals 12 years of age and older under an Emergency Use Authorization (EUA).“

”Serious and unexpected side effects may occur. Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials.”

Conclusion: your body, your choice. If anything happens then you’re on your own and nobody will care (not even the government).

Except if you dig deeper in the Pfizer information you will find it has provisional approval in Australia but still your choice.

[DHfan]

Tell that to all those that perished in the De Havilland Comet.

If you're going to be that ludicrous, what about the 737 MAX? Aviation technology is now far more advanced but over three times as many died.

[mattyj]

Boeing is a microcosm of America in general. All their talented engineers retired..no new talent was trained..innovation and expertise is not as important as diversity and inclusion in the workplace. Everything is outsourced from overseas. Boeing can’t get raw material from inside the USA anymore. Share buybacks and creative accounting has hollowed out the company. They couldn’t make a cleansheet design if they wanted to. Company culture has made it career limiting to criticise internal processes.

[tenretni]

Except if you dig deeper in the Pfizer information you will find it has provisional approval in Australia but still your choice.

I think you will find that the TGA do not have a protocol for emergency use authorisation. Thats probably why they use a provisional approval as per the Therapeutic Goods Act.
Seems to me to operate in the same way as the emergency use authorisation for all intents and purposes. Its pretty clear that we all have the choice to use an experimental vaccine or take our chances with the real deal. I don't know what it all means but there are now more than 45000 new cases in the United Kingdom a day with about 40 percent in vaccinated people. They are about to open everything up and roll the dice. Maybe that's what we should have done from the outset.

[Vref+5]

WHO are reporting side effects to the Pfizer vaccine include, swelling around the heart, arrhythmia, high blood pressure. I’m not posting this to scare people off getting vaccinated, but to make pilots aware that if they get vaccinated and then do their medical within a few months they might ring the blood pressure bell, like I just did…..off to the the specialist for a stress echo test I go!!!

[ruprecht]

WHO are reporting side effects to the Pfizer vaccine include, swelling around the heart, arrhythmia, high blood pressure. I’m not posting this to scare people off getting vaccinated, but to make pilots aware that if they get vaccinated and then do their medical within a few months they might ring the blood pressure bell, like I just did…..off to the the specialist for a stress echo test I go!!!

Same thing happened to me. High BP, coupled with an intermittent arrhythmia when I did my medical 2 weeks after my first Pfizer dose. Nil prior history. Stress test and then off to CASA for approval. All good and the arrhythmia has gone - I’m now 2.5 months after my second dose. Happy to be vaccinated.

Edited to add: I donate blood and they record your BP each time. I’m normally around 123/75, but a month after my second dose I was 147/75...It’s never been that high. I’ll be interested to see what it is when I donate next.

[RMP2]

WHO are reporting side effects to the Pfizer vaccine include, swelling around the heart, arrhythmia, high blood pressure. I’m not posting this to scare people off getting vaccinated, but to make pilots aware that if they get vaccinated and then do their medical within a few months they might ring the blood pressure bell, like I just did…..off to the the specialist for a stress echo test I go!!!

“The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19.”
“Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials.”

Here in Canada: this is what you can read on TC website regarding the vaccine:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1213x641/51246366_492e_40eb_9b35_2273b763d4dd_f620e164854c3c05b56b64c dab9f1b444416fa5a.jpeg
You know how insurances try to find any reason for not paying anything to their customers when they have to fill a claim: would I be covered for any vaccine side effect that would affect my medical?

[DHfan]

More scaremongering.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/awareness-resources/covid-19-vaccine-pfizer-biontech.html

"The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine is authorized for people aged 12 years and older."

[cloudsurfng]

What are you all going to do in Australia when there is a directive that says, no jab no fly? Same as Sydney international terminal…only a matter of time…

[Muttley Crew]

Mods can we please delete all anti vaxxer nonsense?

Where has he(?) said he identifies as a so-called (by your personal definition) "anti vaxxer" (sic)? You know nothing of his vaccination status or overall outlook on the topic beyond an inclination to free thought. For someone who carries himself as a player of the ball rather than the man your aggressive response, bordering on hysteria, is ignorant, rude and potentially dangerous.

What is the real motivation for your outrage? I doubt it's an over-developed sense of altruism so why does it bother you so much if he posts thought-provoking material? You should be interested to know if you've endangered your aircrew medical with this or any other injection or any medical treatment in general (I know of five, possibly six, pilots who've lost their certificates subsequent to their injections). You should also be interested to know if you've damaged your body by submitting to injection with an experimental substance. Some people seem to be coming to the conclusion they may live to regret being "vaccinated" and are developing feelings of frustration as a result; maybe that's the motivation?

You followed up your emotion-based reply with an attempt to explain your opinion using "facts" by way of more opinion, padded out with a link to a gov't statement. This statement ducks around the real issue with vague terminology to reassure the reader while explaining nothing of the fact that this country does things differently and with less transparency than some others. Where is the Informed Consent on this vaccination programme, a requirement in some other countries, here in Australia? Emergency Use Authorisation status in other countries is a fact regardless of which words they use here to placate the masses. I pity the fool who reads that sort of propaganda and believes it word for word.

There's a lot of people here reporting no side-effects a day or two after being injected but, presuming they expect to live healthy lives for many years onward, I'd say it is far, far too early to be assuming there are no side-effects whatsoever of these experimental substances.

Quite a few here refer to the concept of anti-vaxxers being about "me" but pro-vaxxers being about "society." This is disingenuous at best; they are all about what they think is best for themselves and therefore some think it is "good" if everyone else in society does what they want them to. If you've had a "vaccination" please don't engage in this virtue-signalling about "the greater good" and "what's best for society" and instead be honest about your not-unreasonably self-centred desires.

I have not stated whether I will or won't be or already have been vaccinated.

[Guptar]

Instead of crapping on about what you "think" has happened, or repeating what others "think" have happened after getting the Pfizer vaccine. How about you go to the source data and see for yourselves.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj0yLec3enxAhW64nMBHVEsA3oQFjAAegQIBxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernm ent%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F 1000532%2FPfizer_DAP.pdf&usg=AOvVaw02baOe9Yy22YFpmTB-zVVl

Or Google COVID-19 mRNA Pfizer-Biotech vaccine analysis print

This is a sweep of the database that lists every reported occurance after receiving the various vaccines.

As an example, in June report for Pfizer, there were 2 instances (none fatal) of "Jaw Clicking". I just picked two items out of 69 pages. There was 3494 reports of Arthralgia with 0 fatal. It will be many years before we know for sure what is caused by the vaccine, and what is simply coincidence.

As of 17 July 2021 there has been 3.67 BILLION vaccinations given around the globe. How many deaths have we heared about that were suspected of being caused by the vaccine. Probably less that 1000 from what I can gather. It may actually be in the hundreds. NO ONE REALY KNOWS FOR SURE. In any case I would hazard to guess that getting the vaccine is safer than driving or drinking alcohol.

So people.............STOP CRAPPING ON.

[mattyj]

I heard that there was nearly 10000 on the VAERS website and that chronically underreports..so who’s data is true?

[mattyj]

I’ve had every vaccine available and so have all my kids..I’ve had all the free flu shots my company gave me vouchers for over the last 5 years..am I anti vaccine?? No I don’t think so..but I’m very nervous about this one..now am I anti vax?? Yes? What changed…1/20 means I failed the test?? Spare me..!

[DHfan]

I heard that there was nearly 10000 on the VAERS website and that chronically underreports..so who’s data is true?


From Wiki:

Due to the program's open and accessible design and its allowance of unverified reports, incomplete VAERS data is often used in false claims regarding vaccine safety. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control has warned that data from VAERS is not enough to determine whether a vaccine can cause a particular adverse event.

People can believe what they like, but personally I'd no more believe VAERS than a random bloke in the street.

[Aussie Bob]

If I went to South America and toured the jungles I would in all likelihood take the yellow fever vaccine. As I nosied up the Amazon I wouldn't give two figs if the bloke sitting next to me had had the vaccine. I would expect protection to a certain extent regardless.

If I take the Covid vaccine I wouldn't give a rats ar$e whether the bloke next to me in the terminal had had it. Why should I? Isn't the whole point of taking this thing to get protection?

You blokes and blokettes who think everyone has to take it in order for it to work are seriously underwhelming me. What would be the point? In any event, I am thinking that way less than the 70% figure you are bandying about for the thing to work are going to front up for this emergency, less than 1 year old treatment that is not even vaccine by definition.

I would like to see you all overcome your fears and simply live with this until it passes.

[DHfan]

Or in many cases, die with it...

[Max Tow]

[QUOTE=Aussie Bob;11080126]If I went to South America and toured the jungles I would in all likelihood take the yellow fever vaccine. As I nosied up the Amazon I wouldn't give two figs if the bloke sitting next to me had had the vaccine.

...and you'd be quite right, Aussie Bob. As one of many online medical experts, I'm sure you'll already know that unlike Covid-19, there's no direct human to human transmission of Yellow Fever....

[Aussie Bob]

Sure thing Max, but the point remains, does it protect or does it not? If it doesn't, WTF are we taking to for? Sorry to disappoint, I aint no expert, I am simply not particularly worried about much at all, least of all something that I can't even see.

Subsequent to this I might also add, a mosquito directly interfaces with the bloodstream, a human merely breathes out air :-)

[Max Tow]

[QUOTE=Aussie Bob: "Sure thing Max, but the point remains, does it protect or does it not?"

Perhaps I can help you with that: The consensus amongst medics is that coronavirus vaccines lessen the chance of you getting COVID-19 and massively reduce the risk of developing serious illness and being hospitalised. Being put on a ventilator & death are very bad things. Having flu and a headache: possibly not so much.

[QUOTE=Aussie Bob: "Subsequent to this I might also add, a mosquito directly interfaces with the bloodstream, a human merely breathes out air :-"

So I guess you won't be needing to pack a mask on your Amazon trip?

[Chronic Snoozer]

I have not stated whether I will or won't be or already have been vaccinated.

Why not? .

[SOPS]

If I went to South America and toured the jungles I would in all likelihood take the yellow fever vaccine. As I nosied up the Amazon I wouldn't give two figs if the bloke sitting next to me had had the vaccine. I would expect protection to a certain extent regardless.

If I take the Covid vaccine I wouldn't give a rats ar$e whether the bloke next to me in the terminal had had it. Why should I? Isn't the whole point of taking this thing to get protection?

You blokes and blokettes who think everyone has to take it in order for it to work are seriously underwhelming me. What would be the point? In any event, I am thinking that way less than the 70% figure you are bandying about for the thing to work are going to front up for this emergency, less than 1 year old treatment that is not even vaccine by definition.

I would like to see you all overcome your fears and simply live with this until it passes.


I am interested to know why you dont think the vaccine is a vaccine ?

[Ninthace]

Sorry to interrupt as a non dweller in your part of the world but as someone with strong family links with aviation in the region. The death and hospitalisation rates in countries with high levels of vaccination are much lower for a given level of infection. For a like with like comparison, compare the UK stats for the start of second wave, where there was virtually no vaccination, with the equivalent daily case numbers for the third wave, with high levels of vaccination. They are released every day at 1600 UK time. The vaccinations are not 100% effective but they definitely shift the odds in your favour. No question vaccination works.

Would you rather sit there wondering if you should have been vaccinated or be lying in hospital wishing you had been? Your call.

[dr dre]

I’ve had every vaccine available and so have all my kids..I’ve had all the free flu shots my company gave me vouchers for over the last 5 years..am I anti vaccine?? No I don’t think so..but I’m very nervous about this one..now am I anti vax?? Yes? What changed…1/20 means I failed the test?? Spare me..!

Could you please post the sources of the information you read that made you “very nervous” about the Covid vaccine, and then maybe we could address those concerns?

[DirectAnywhere]

Sorry to interrupt as a non dweller in your part of the world but as someone with strong family links with aviation in the region. The death and hospitalisation rates in countries with high levels of vaccination are much lower for a given level of infection. For a like with like comparison, compare the UK stats for the start of second wave, where there was virtually no vaccination, with the equivalent daily case numbers for the third wave, with high levels of vaccination. They are released every day at 1600 UK time. The vaccinations are not 100% effective but they definitely shift the odds in your favour. No question vaccination works.

Would you rather sit there wondering if you should have been vaccinated or be lying in hospital wishing you had been? Your call.

The problem is that no-one in Australia gives a s&*t about death or hospitalisation rates. After 18 months of success, closed borders, zero cases and being the absolute envy of the world - just ask Scomo and Greg Hunt - Australians have been conditioned to believe that no-one in this country ever dies from a communicable disease and that the only acceptable outcome is zero deaths from anything for ever.

Current daily US death rates of 280 per day (7 day average, less than 10% of the high in January) when corrected for population would be roughly 22 per day or 8200 deaths a year in Australia. In the US such figures are seen as a triumph of science and policy (finally). Here, they'd be a disaster of epic proportions and no politician would ever be willing to sanction such numbers. I think we're fk'd.

[No Idea Either]

Heard the latest news from the US. Approx 18000 covid deaths in May and only 150 of those were vaccinated, leaving the other approx 17850 unvaccinated……….does that tell you something.

[DirectAnywhere]

Yeah, fair point, but are we ever going to get to the point where we can protect everyone - even those who won't get vaccinated? That seems to be what our pollies want so that the insta mums in Bondi and Byron can conscientiously object, keep their kids vax free and ride off the coat tails of everyone else's vaccination.

[DHfan]

I've just read that Sydney going into total lockdown for a couple of weeks. To be fair, I only read the headline but it seemed to suggest that it was extremely strict.
How is that necessary when apparently nobody's been allowed in or out of Australia for 18 months?

[Muttley Crew]

From Wiki:
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control has warned that data from VAERS is not enough to determine whether a vaccine can cause a particular adverse event.
People can believe what they like, but personally I'd no more believe VAERS than a random bloke in the street.

But you believe what you read on Wikipaedia? That's astounding.

The problem is the the tactics anti vaxxers use to trick people is they make their arguments just convincing enough to make people hesitant. If they out and out said “vaccines will make you grow a second head” most people would realise they are nuts.

What they do is dress up their arguments with what just appears to be enough credibility, by taking stats from official sources but using them out of context or not how the authors of the stats intended them to be used......

......Soundssort of official and like the poster knows what they’re talking about, right?

The style you've described sounds remarkably similar to your own. Is this a case of "it takes one to know one"? Or, "You can't bulls**t a bulls**tter"? I suspect that while your researched opinions sound somewhat plausible on here, you would most likely stumble in a live debate or a heated pub discussion. Why is it okay (in your mind) when you do it but it's a capital offence for someone else with an opposing opinion to do the same thing?

Why not?
No particular reason. I only mentioned what I did to save any rabies-sufferer from jumping to a conclusion and derailing the thread with a rant about my status.

[DirectAnywhere]

I've just read that Sydney going into total lockdown for a couple of weeks. To be fair, I only read the headline but it seemed to suggest that it was extremely strict.
How is that necessary when apparently nobody's been allowed in or out of Australia for 18 months?

Because quarantine's been a complete clusterf^&k and so Delta has broken in to an Australian population which is basically unvaccinated because the vaccine rollout is also a complete clusterf%^k.

[dr dre]

l I suspect that while your researched opinions sound somewhat plausible on here, you would most likely stumble in a live debate or a heated pub discussion.


You’re actually right. I’d probably lose an argument in a pub which is a contest of who can yell the most emotive talking points out the most forcefully.

I would prefer to take the time to research what I say before I say it, back up my statements with data from credible sources, and instead of automatically believing everything I’m told by the biggest loudmouth in the pub read up on what actual experts in that field say.

And everything I’ve read from acknowledged experts in the vaccine field is pretty definite.

[DHfan]

But you believe what you read on Wikipaedia? That's astounding.

Not necessarily, I sometimes use it as a quick resource.
But

If this bit wasn't true, I imagine it would have been removed:
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control has warned that data from VAERS is not enough to determine whether a vaccine can cause a particular adverse event.

If you don't believe that bit, it's astounding.

[RMP2]

And everything I’ve read from acknowledged experts in the vaccine field is pretty definite.

acknowledged according to who?! The same “experts” that put us in this big mess with now a Delta variant that is proven to spread more in vaccinated individuals? Look at Israel, the UK; perfect exemple of a BIG fail. Not so impressed by the “experts” so far!

[MickG0105]

From Wiki: Due to the program's open and accessible design and its allowance of unverified reports, incomplete VAERS data is often used in false claims regarding vaccine safety. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control has warned that data from VAERS is not enough to determine whether a vaccine can cause a particular adverse event. People can believe what they like, but personally I'd no more believe VAERS than a random bloke in the street.But you believe what you read on Wikipaedia? That's astounding.

Well, forget Wikipedia, what about what the CDC say about VAERS on its landing page (https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html)?
​​​​​​
​​​​ VAERS accepts and analyzes reports of possible health problems—also called “adverse events”—after vaccination. As an early warning system, VAERS cannot prove that a vaccine caused a problem. Specifically, a report to VAERS does not mean that a vaccine caused an adverse event. But VAERS can give CDC and FDA important information. If it looks as though a vaccine might be causing a problem, FDA and CDC will investigate further and take action if needed.

Anyone can submit a report to VAERS — healthcare professionals, vaccine manufacturers, and the general public. VAERS welcomes all reports, regardless of seriousness, and regardless of how likely the vaccine may have been to have caused the adverse event. That's the CDC's bolding.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1045x1630/screenshot_2021_07_18_08_57_03_1_9695096e87a902de0ef1d551169 fa4c1938baed7.png
Point 5 expands on the caution in the bolded text.

[dr dre]

acknowledged according to who?! The same “experts” that put us in this big mess with now a Delta variant that is proven to spread more in vaccinated individuals? Look at Israel, the UK; perfect exemple of a BIG fail. Not so impressed by the “experts” so far!

How have the experts (I assume you mean the ones saying vaccines will end the pandemic) been proven wrong with the Delta variant? Even with Delta the death rate from this spike in the UK is minuscule compared to previous variants. Look at the graphs:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1531/e0db589d_c490_4589_86fb_7f73c0951c0c_dce504d8dd03826b58d3dc7 dd5bc404c3183a2b1.jpeg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1454/4c0636a8_a2b7_43fc_aae3_627607066e32_b0ede99c504b563addf9565 652d8b90875171b72.jpeg

See how it’s almost remained flat for the last few weeks? That’s vaccines at work. If vaccines were having a BIG fail the daily UK deaths would be about 500 by now.

[common cents]

Is that because of the vaccine or the mutation in the virus?
If one argues that the majority of UK residents catching Delta Covid are unvaccinated then the theory of evolution has to come into play. I mean they were not vaccinated so why aren’t they dying?
I think current estimates are that the exponential infection growth in UK....now at 50000 plus cases a day.... is 70% non vaccinated.There should be huge death numbers but not so! With such high unvaccinated cases how does one justify the argument that it’s the effect of vaccination?
The other thing that bothers me is this risk to benefit mantra.
In Australia since the beginning of this pandemic there has been 1 death in the 10 to 29 year age group. A total of 9646 cases! That’s a fatality rate of 0.01%. Should this group be exposed to unknown risks with experimental vaccines that may reduce this rate to 0.0005%.
Dont get me wrong, because I too think that if these vaccines are shown to reduce illness by the claimed 90% then that would benefit the elderly with fatality rates of 9.3% 70-79 years and 29.0% in the 80 to 89 years group.
Risk to benefit where it is warranted. Sticking this **** into a 12 year old is sickening.

[Potsie Weber]

Is that because of the vaccine or the mutation in the virus?
If one argues that the majority of UK residents catching Delta Covid are unvaccinated then the theory of evolution has to come into play. I mean they were not vaccinated so why aren’t they dying?
I think current estimates are that the exponential infection growth in UK....now at 50000 plus cases a day.... is 70% non vaccinated.There should be huge death numbers but not so! With such high unvaccinated cases how does one justify the argument that it’s the effect of vaccination?
The other thing that bothers me is this risk to benefit mantra.
In Australia since the beginning of this pandemic there has been 1 death in the 10 to 29 year age group. A total of 9646 cases! That’s a fatality rate of 0.01%. Should this group be exposed to unknown risks with experimental vaccines that may reduce this rate to 0.0005%.
Dont get me wrong, because I too think that if these vaccines are shown to reduce illness by the claimed 90% then that would benefit the elderly with fatality rates of 9.3% 70-79 years and 29.0% in the 80 to 89 years group.
Risk to benefit where it is warranted. Sticking this **** into a 12 year old is sickening.

In the UK, cases are spiking in younger people who are less likely to be vaccinated. Younger people are much less likely to die from COVID too, so cases are going up, but deaths not so much. There are now more deaths in the UK from vaccinated than non-vaccinated as age is by far the biggest influence on death. A vaccinated 70yr old is at greater risk than an unvaccinated 35yr old.

[common cents]

In the UK, cases are spiking in younger people who are less likely to be vaccinated. Younger people are much less likely to die from COVID too, so cases are going up, but deaths not so much. There are now more deaths in the UK from vaccinated than non-vaccinated as age is by far the biggest influence on death. A vaccinated 70yr old is at greater risk than an unvaccinated 35yr old.

So should we be vaccinating and introducing risk in young people or just the elderly?
Also for the purposes of Covid risk how would we define “ young people “?

[Foxxster]

But you believe what you read on Wikipaedia?


it has been infested by the left, like most media and so called fact checkers.

https://youtu.be/l0P4Cf0UCwU

[DHfan]

Sticking this **** into a 12 year old is sickening.

Obviously no common sense (sic) referring to it as **** means your posts should be immediately discounted.

[dr dre]

Risk to benefit where it is warranted. Sticking this **** into a 12 year old is sickening.

We have vaccines for Meningococcal. They are were developed this century, and approved for use only a few years after being created. They are administered to children at 12 months of age, and if parents refuse they’ll lose welfare and their kids will be denied admittance to childcare.

So my question is were you as equally as vocal against all the vaccines that were never approved after trials of the test subjects as they went through childhood and puberty?

[Aussie Bob]

Boris Johnston had it
Prince Charles had it
Donald Trump had it
Tom Hanks had it, so did his missus
Valentino Rossi had it

Do I need to keep going? All better remarkably quickly without the vaccine they are touting.

I agree, sticking this stuff into kids this early in the testing phase is sickening. So is locking them down.

[common cents]

We have vaccines for Meningococcal. They are were developed this century, and approved for use only a few years after being created. They are administered to children at 12 months of age, and if parents refuse they’ll lose welfare and their kids will be denied admittance to childcare.

So my question is were you as equally as vocal against all the vaccines that were never approved after trials of the test subjects as they went through childhood and puberty?

No not at all. Contrary to what you might believe I am not against tried tested safe and proven vaccines or medications of any kind.
As you said Meningococcal and indeed many other vaccines were approved only after a few years of safety data. These current new and untested technologies should be thoroughly developed through proper safety analysis over a few years before use.
The difference in this case is a sense of urgency brought about by this pandemic. That’s understandable but my question stands. Should we be injecting this **** or maybe I should say crap lest I offend DHfan again, into the arms of children and young adults .With a known recovery rate of 99.9% in this age group the risk to benefit just doesn’t seem justifiable. By all means jab the elderly or the vulnerable because that’s where the real emergency seems to exist.

I am sure that the big pharmaceutical companies, our government, and the medical community have the most honourable of intentions. Is that enough to act on though? Or do we adopt a wait and see approach until the science is truly in?

Ultimately we are all free to exercise intelligent judgment and decide on an action.....at least for the present time.

[DHfan]

I'm not offended by the word but you have such a blinkered opinion I'm surprised you haven't called it poison or gene therapy yet like some .... I'll leave it blank.

[common cents]

I'm not offended by the word but you have such a blinkered opinion I'm surprised you haven't called it poison or gene therapy yet like some .... I'll leave it blank.

No need to leave it blank on my account. I’ve got broad shoulders .
Your characterisation of my post is indeed just an opinion. Your opinion.
I posed a legitimate question about the use of this experimental vaccine in young people. That’s a question not an opinion.
Maybe I can form an opinion if you can provide me with a sensible answer.

[Gnadenburg]

If Aussie kids were dying of COVID and no ICU beds available, there would be less fashionable dogma with the risk assessment of vaccines.

But whilst the government hands out money and much of the middle class watch their personal wealth increase, a good percentage can grandstand in a defiance afforded the Lucky Country. Yet so many Aussie kids are fat. Idle, bellies filled with the unknowns of processed foods and high sugared diets. Many are destined for critical health issues in their twenties and thirties, you may even wonder if some of these kids are actually more at risk from COVID effects than being "poisoned" by "untrialled" vaccines.

[RMP2]

Facts from the SAGE (scientific advisory group of emergency) - UK Gov.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicat ... -july-2021 (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/sage-93-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-7-july-2021/sage-93-minutes-coronavirus-covid-19-response-7-july-2021)

see point 9

« The combination of high prevalence and high levels of vaccination creates the conditions in which an immune escape variant is most likely to emerge. The likelihood of this happening is unknown, but such a variant would present a significant risk both in the UK and internationally.»

Some virologists stated that we should never vaccinate during a pandemic for that exact reason.

Should we lockdown the vaccinated? It looks like it’s gonna be a never ending game…

[mattyj]

I said this a couple of pages ago..I must be a f$&king genius..or a f$&king idiot..it’s all the same thing these days

[Xeptu]

Eight weeks out of my first AZ shot, four weeks to go to second shot. first six weeks, nothing, nothing at all. I can't be sure if this is associated but, I have no explanation for it. FEVER, not every night, but usually within two hours of sleep, soaking wet, upper body, scalp most noticeable. This has occurred three times over ten days. Nothing at all whilst awake. Anyone else.???

[hawkerxp]

I had Pfizer and the first one nothing at all the second dose knocked me around for 2 days, fever and aches. I am mid 30’s and relatively fit and healthy.

[compressor stall]

Eight weeks out of my first AZ shot, four weeks to go to second shot. first six weeks, nothing, nothing at all. I can't be sure if this is associated but, I have no explanation for it. FEVER, not every night, but usually within two hours of sleep, soaking wet, upper body, scalp most noticeable. This has occurred three times over ten days. Nothing at all whilst awake. Anyone else.???
Menopause?

[compressor stall]

I had Pfizer and the first one nothing at all the second dose knocked me around for 2 days, fever and aches. I am mid 30’s and relatively fit and healthy.
That correlates with the medical stats and expected. First AZ worse then second and second Pfizer worse than first.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Eight weeks out of my first AZ shot, four weeks to go to second shot. first six weeks, nothing, nothing at all. I can't be sure if this is associated but, I have no explanation for it. FEVER, not every night, but usually within two hours of sleep, soaking wet, upper body, scalp most noticeable. This has occurred three times over ten days. Nothing at all whilst awake. Anyone else.???

Have you been tested - sounds like you might have Covid - The Vaccine does not make you 100% Immune

[Ascend Charlie]

Night sweats = AIDS?

[chuboy]

Eight weeks out of my first AZ shot, four weeks to go to second shot. first six weeks, nothing, nothing at all. I can't be sure if this is associated but, I have no explanation for it. FEVER, not every night, but usually within two hours of sleep, soaking wet, upper body, scalp most noticeable. This has occurred three times over ten days. Nothing at all whilst awake. Anyone else.???
See your doc, fever with drenching night sweats can be a symptom of something more serious which is unrelated to the vaccine - it can be ruled out with a few simple blood tests for peace of mind.

[Cloudee]

Boris Johnston had it
Prince Charles had it
Donald Trump had it
Tom Hanks had it, so did his missus
Valentino Rossi had it

Do I need to keep going? All better remarkably quickly without the vaccine they are touting.

I agree, sticking this stuff into kids this early in the testing phase is sickening. So is locking them down.
You might want to check how remarkably quickly Boris got better. He would have died without a stay in ICU.

[Xeptu]

See your doc, fever with drenching night sweats can be a symptom of something more serious which is unrelated to the vaccine - it can be ruled out with a few simple blood tests for peace of mind.

Thanks all, I am fortunate to have plenty of medical people around me, pain in the arse they are, worse than pilots. :) I was particularly amused by the menopause and aids responses.

My aim was to put it out there for those who may be experiencing the same thing specifically related to the AZ vaccine. I would have been one of the early jabs in my area, I registered my interest before it was available to me and took the jab, where and when I was booked in by the states health organisation. There wouldn't be a lot of ordinary people (not a priority) like myself who would have had the first AZ jab much earlier. Time will tell if it's vaccine related or not.

The symptom, fever sweats, nothing else with it, no shivering, no aches and pains, only once, not all night, within 2 hours of sleep, you wouldn't otherwise know if you didn't wake up cold and wet., particularly the pillow case.

Cheers
This has happened 3 times, not every night, urines are clear.

[Chris2303]

You might want to check how remarkably quickly Boris got better. He would have died without a stay in ICU.

Where he was looked after by Nurse Jenny from Invercargill, New Zealand

[MalcolmReynolds]

Pfizer shots 1 and 2. Sore arm for a day each time. Nothing else at all.

[Foxxster]

Your immune system is governed by circadian rhythm. It is usual to have an increased response and therefore fever at night. I guess your body is busy reacting to the vaccine. I would let the covid people know as a side effect. The Homebush mega clinic giving out Pfizer sends a follow up survey about any side effects. Yours needs to be added to the database for whichever vaccine you took even though the symptoms are not severe.

[turbantime]

Eight weeks out of my first AZ shot, four weeks to go to second shot. first six weeks, nothing, nothing at all. I can't be sure if this is associated but, I have no explanation for it. FEVER, not every night, but usually within two hours of sleep, soaking wet, upper body, scalp most noticeable. This has occurred three times over ten days. Nothing at all whilst awake. Anyone else.???
I would suggest that you’ve got an issue seperate to the AZ vax. We’re not medical professionals of course so it would be prudent to consult one.

[zlin77]

AZ at 8:30 am, 1:30 am next day high temps 39.9, aches in all muscles, felt as though a truck had hit me, some Panadol and all OK by 10:00am, a little tired for the rest of the day, second shot @ 9.5 weeks, mild temp of 38.1 after 18 hours, some Panadol and all OK later that day, my wife had AZ just under 5 weeks apart...Zero reaction, we are all different!

[Xeptu]

I thought about telling my nuclear weapon (she who must be obeyed) that perhaps its an STD, like my fellow ppruners have suggested, but decided against it, that might not work out all that well for me. :)

[blubak]

Just to get back on-topic…

Had the 1st AZ 4 days ago, 2nd due in ~5 weeks. 1st 12hrs, nada, felt fine. Then got chills, restless sleep, woke up feeling like I had a low-grade flu, no energy. Injection site felt like a bruise.

Next day, sorted, all good. Injection site still a little tender.

Overall, nothing to report here. A non-event. Nothing to fear. Grateful to have a level of protection against this nasty disease, for myself & my family.
My in laws had az few days ago,both in 80's,1 of them not in great health,their 1st choice was pfizer but didnt qualify,they havent had any side effects so far & are happy to have the protection it offers.
I had my 1st az 8 weeks ago & had mild shivering 2nd night so all happy here too.

[rockarpee]

For what its worth, 1st shot AZ 5 weeks ago midday. Midnight feverish, shivers etc. Man flu rest of the day. Thats it. I'm waiting the full 12 weeks for second shot.

[ChrisJ800]

We just had our flu shots 6 weeks after 1st AZ so midway. AZ or flu shots had no effect on me but the wife reacted to both. 2 days off work after AZ and 5 days before back to normal and a day or so unwell after flu jab. She says her immune system must be better than mine because of the reactions but Im not sure about that?

[Dawn Patrol]

Pfizer completed. Little tired the second day. Day after that was back to 100%.

[blubak]

Pfizer completed. Little tired the second day. Day after that was back to 100%.
No front page headlines if you dont have massive complications,funny about that!
Just looking at twitter & many people saying how bosses/companies are giving employees time off to get the jab & some even paying a small bonus,hope the government is taking note & get on board quickly.
Imagine the money they could save if enticing people with a small payment worked against the cost of support packages for lockdowns.

[patty50]

No front page headlines if you dont have massive complications,funny about that!
Just looking at twitter & many people saying how bosses/companies are giving employees time off to get the jab & some even paying a small bonus,hope the government is taking note & get on board quickly.
Imagine the money they could save if enticing people with a small payment worked against the cost of support packages for lockdowns.

“Have you had the jab?”

“No, I’m waiting until the government gets desperate enough to start paying people.”

[roundsounds]

First shot of Pfizer, no side affects. Second shot, day 2 feeling aches in joints and lethargy.

[Kelly Slater]

Second AZ shot yesterday and none of the horrible effects of the first. Now I just have to last the next four weeks; the latest is that you are at risk of clots between four days and four weeks in.

[1A_Please]

Second AZ shot yesterday and none of the horrible effects of the first. Now I just have to last the next four weeks; the latest is that you are at risk of clots between four days and four weeks in.
You're pretty safe. The incidence of clots after second A-Z shot is, for all intents and purposes, zero.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

If people are so worried about blood clots they should probably take the high road and take their girlfriend or wife off the pill. Far more likely to develop clots with that

[Lantern10]

Four weeks out of 1st AZ, absolutely no symptoms whatsoever.

[blubak]

Four weeks out of 1st AZ, absolutely no symptoms whatsoever.
200,000 a day now getting vaccinated,looking like the nay sayers will just live in their little bubble as the rest of the country moves on.

[Oriana]

Both Pfizers.

No after effects either shots, except a feeling my arm took a needle.

[hyg]

Both Pfizers.

No after effects either shots, except a feeling my arm took a needle.

Similar, bit of headache the next day but nothing a panadol couldn't fix.... some of my friends got hit pretty hard from the 2nd dose of pfizers and I was bracing for the worst, but turned out I got nth

[601]

hope the government is taking note & get on board quickly.

I suppose you want a free App for your iThingy so you can be told when to get your bribe.

Come on just do the correct thing and get the bl00dy jab

[blubak]

I suppose you want a free App for your iThingy so you can be told when to get your bribe.

Come on just do the correct thing and get the bl00dy jab
No i dont actually & i didnt have to be told or coerced to get it.
I take it you are 100% satisfied with where the country is at the moment so im happy you feel that way.

[601]

I take it you are 100% satisfied with where the country is at the moment so im happy you feel that way.

No I am not 100% happy.
I am p!!$ed off at people who do not follow simple requirements, finding whatever excuse they can, other than a medical one, for not getting the jab and for all being experts in 20/20 hindsight.

[AerialPerspective]

No front page headlines if you dont have massive complications,funny about that!
Just looking at twitter & many people saying how bosses/companies are giving employees time off to get the jab & some even paying a small bonus,hope the government is taking note & get on board quickly.
Imagine the money they could save if enticing people with a small payment worked against the cost of support packages for lockdowns.

That's been suggested by the Opposition but Prime Minister (or the 'Mime Minister'), the dishonorable, happy-clappy slogan bogan has made fun of it, YET, he did exactly the same thing essentially with regard to the no-jab no-pay scheme with respect to childcare.

So, don't hold your breath for him to take note. He'll just sit back until the disaster becomes untenable, then will erect a dozen flags, put some people in military uniforms behind him as usual and blame someone else or respond "listen mate, I don't hold a syringe" followed by ordering a bus ready to throw the general's under when it all goes south.

Sadly, as the election nears, he'll throw out some fists full of dollars to the lemmings, get Clive to run some ads and smirk his way to another victory. If people want to be angry about something, they should be angry that Shorten presented him with a smorgasbord of complex 'Hewson-esque' policies and presented a huge target at the last election, otherwise we likely wouldn't be in this position now because it would have been handled differently.

[Crosswhinge]

Recent lancet article re clots is reassuring.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)01693-7/fulltext

Personally no reaction to AZ shots.

[tripple]

Both AZ, I had no problems other than slight fatigue on day 2. My wife on the other hand was diagnosed with encephalitis (brain swelling) presented as slight confusion, and problems finding words……on the mend after being placed on steroids. Apparently not a common side effect, but a known side effect to both vaccines.

[Vag277]

Can people not tell the difference between a bribe and a penalty?

[Xeptu]

A futile attempt at humour.
It's good we haven't heard from anyone that developed blood clots and died. :)

[DHfan]

In the UK news there have been three vociferous anti-vaxxers in the last week or so that have died from covid.

[The Banjo]

In the UK news there have been three vociferous anti-vaxxers in the last week or so that have died from covid.


There is a God after all.....

[compressor stall]

H Scott Apley was a Texas GOP leader who has a public Facebook profile full of anti vax and anti mask rhetoric. He died a few days ago, from COVID. His last FB posts are still there.

His wife has a go fund me campaign to cover hospital bills. Appretnely when it reached its target, the target went up another $20k.

[1A_Please]

H Scott Apley was a Texas GOP leader who has a public Facebook profile full of anti vax and anti mask rhetoric. He died a few days ago, from COVID. His last FB posts are still there.

His wife has a go fund me campaign to cover hospital bills. Appretnely when it reached its target, the target went up another $20k.
Grifting seems to have infected the GOP.; another sad legacy of Trump.

[mattyj]

Oh if you think Grifting only started with Trump in the GOP I got this bridge…

[Paragraph377]

It’s amazing how many well heeled folk in Politics are linked to big pharma. Queensland’s CMO Dr Jeanette Young’s husband is Professor Graeme Nimmo. He has served on advisory boards for Novartis, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and Janssen-Cilag. If that isn’t a conflict of interest then what is?

[chuboy]

If that isn’t a conflict of interest then what is?
Perhaps ex-LNP Chief of Staff Kieran Schneemann now serving as the head of the Government Affairs team at the Australian arm of AstraZeneca qualifies?

It's too bad Jeanette Young isn't one Scotty's advisors, we might have ended up with more Pfizer :suspect:

[dr dre]

It’s amazing how many well heeled folk in Politics are linked to big pharma. Queensland’s CMO Dr Jeanette Young’s husband is Professor Graeme Nimmo. He has served on advisory boards for Novartis, Pfizer, AstraZeneca and Janssen-Cilag. If that isn’t a conflict of interest then what is?

Theres nothing conspiratorial about that. A CMO would be likely to be married to someone else in the medical field. Professor Nimmo is one of Australia’s best medical scientists, medical professors and has been on the top board in Australia for his chosen field for microbiology and drug resistance. He has published 130 peer reviewed papers. And at some point he has probably provided technical advice to a large range of pharmaceutical manufacturers.

Is it a big conspiracy that at some point the top regulators in Australian Aviation would’ve worked for an airline? No, so similarly nothing conspiratorial in this case.

[C441]

Given that apparently somewhere around 1 in 70,000-100,000 persons suffer a blood clot after taking Astra-Zeneca, I'm surprised that at least some research hasn't been communicated identifying those at greater risk of clots other than "you are at greater risk if you are under 60".

As hundreds of millions of AZ vaccines have been administered and thus a relatively large number of subsequent clots have occurred, I would have thought a trend would be identified by now, thus identifying those at greater risk and allowing greater 'minimal-risk' use of AZ in the community.

[Obie]

Any GP will tell you that as one ages the risk of a blood clot diminishes.

[43Inches]

Seriously, the blood clot occurrence is minuscule, we have talked about it in relation to being struck by lightning or winning a lottery.

To put it in real perspective, women take the pill daily, you have between 1 in 3000 to 1 in 10,000 chance of a clot over a year of use depending on what method you use. If you are on the pill, then worrying about AZ giving you a clot or whatever is just nuts. Just conspiracy theory hackjobs spreading this crap.

Sitting at your computer for more than an hour a day will increase your risk of DVT significantly as well as sitting in a plane, watching excessive television, etc etc.

Stop making stupid excuses, get vaccinated.

If you are susceptible to clotting, due to family history or whatever, see your GP and get a vaccine that doesn't do that.

[mince]

Why do you feel you have the right to tell others to get vaccinated?

[hamfists]

Specifically why do you have the right in this instance? If the poster has always been vaccinated before but has a bad feeling about these vaccines, perhaps that’s a function of the new media environment and the disastrous record of the health bureaucrats lately..hesitancy seems totally understandable these days

[43Inches]

Why do you feel you have the right to tell others to get vaccinated?

I can tell you what ever I want, you don't have to do it. If you are offended by being asked to get a jab for the greater good, then something inside you is conflicted.

Even if i had the power to 'order' you to vaccinate I would not, that is your choice.

[hamfists]

What is the goal we are aiming for?? If this is a war..when have we won. The CDC is flat out saying that vaccinated people can carry the virus and infect others at a decent rate so I’m guessing with 100% vaccination the virus will still be around moving through the community, mutating and so forth. What then?

[TimmyTee]

Presumably many against the vaccine in here are airline pilots in Australia - I’ve got some bad news for you….

Tier one: workers who may come into close contact with a positive case, such as an airline worker or hotel quarantine worker

at very best you’ll be classified as tier 2. But that’s still workplaces like aged care, where workers are already required to be vaccinated to maintain their employment.

https://www.skynews.com.au/australia-news/politics/employers-will-be-referred-the-decision-on-whether-to-impose-vaccine-mandate-on-their-workers/news-story/e35b1a8b452ba70d6bcb208685c365aa

[machtuk]

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1353x1942/image_10f1b938d98c4614b18df512b422f602995ddbfd.jpeg

[Nutjob]

Phase 3 trials are complete and approval has been given for the use of some vaccines, not all.
Safety monitoring continues until 2023 or 2022 depending on the manufacturer, Pfizer or Moderna. Safety monitoring is normal practice for all vaccines and does not constitute a trial per se.
As far as I can determine the trial phase is over, engaging a competent lawyer will help .

Trial dates....
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04516746

Novel mRNA technology and (by definition) no long term safety data yet. Any pilot who can Notice, Understand & Think Ahead might want to conduct a very careful risk-benefit analysis before rushing into these vaccines, given the fragility of a Class 1 medical.

Personal risk from Covid-19 calculator:
https://www.qcovid.org/

Infection Fatality Rate of Covid-19 = ~0.15% (similar to influenza)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33768536/

Let's protect informed consent and not get carried away with hasty, gut reactions.

[Near Miss]

No point having a class 1 medical if you have no job.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Pfizer 1: Sore arm, tired and light headache. Lasted two days.
Pfizer 2, 6 weeks later. No side effects until day 3 when I had a bad round of diarrea.

My wife sleeps badly, and her side effect was good sleep for a week or so after Pfizer 1. Sore arm.
My son had flue like sympthom for a week or so after Pfizer 1.

We are grounded for 48 hrs after vaccination.
We don’t use the AZ vaccine after 0.003% of those vaccinated died from blood clots. The supply of Pfizer and Moderna is good enough to cover our need for vaccines.

More than 90% of those getting infected now are not vaccinated. Close to 70% of our population have had the first jab, 38 % both.
With 90% or better protection from the vaccines, they are doing what they are supposed to do.
The risk of getting infected is less than 10% if you get vaccinated, vs 90% or so for the non vaccinated. I would rather not fly with a colleague who is not vaccinated, but that is up to the company to decide, not me.

Several airlines now will not let you work if you don’t get vaccinated.

Our industry is dead if we don’t get this under control.

Mortality rate world wide:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

[MickG0105]

We don’t use the AZ vaccine after 0.003% of those vaccinated died from blood clots.

Can I ask how you have calculated that percentage please?

The UK data of about 50 deaths from around 30.8 million doses administered would be 0.00016 percent. If you were to do a rudimentary conversion of doses administered to people fully vaccinated by dividing the former by two, the percentage rises to 0.00032 percent. The Australian data of seven deaths from 6.8 million doses administered yields 0.0001 percent of doses administered and 0.0002 percent of those fully vaccinated.

Might you be out by an order of magnitude?

[turbantime]

No point having a class 1 medical if you have no job.
It appears that the risk of losing your medical is infinitely higher from the virus than the vaccine. Collapsed lungs, heart problems, long-term fatigue, blood clots etc are starting to mount with long Covid becoming a real issue. Don’t get sucked into the ‘survival rate’. Survival does not equal recovery.

[43Inches]

Novel mRNA technology and (by definition) no long term safety data yet. Any pilot who can Notice, Understand & Think Ahead might want to conduct a very careful risk-benefit analysis before rushing into these vaccines, given the fragility of a Class 1 medical.

mRNA vaccines do not play with your DNA or alter it in anyway. The Pfizer vaccine creates a replicating 'foreign' protein molecule that your immune system sees as foreign and activates. Your immune system then does everything naturally, no vaccine assistance at all, all it's doing is being say the rabbit at a greyhound race, getting all your bodys defenses to race in one direction and seek out that protein. How it works vs Covid, the same protein is found on the surface of Covid virus, so it teaches your immune system to latch onto that protein and see it as harmful and foreign.

Astrazeneca is a vector vaccine, so its basically antigen cells from a chimpanzee grafted onto an inert virus that stimulates your immune system to react, it focuses on a similar protein as the lure/activator. A difference in the AZ method is that the inert virus actually stimulates your antigens into a little overdrive as well as providing a cue for resistance.

Both vaccines work differently, but achieve the same thing, activating your immune system to do its's own thing. The vaccine in itself is not defeating Covid, your own immune system is.

Medical wise, FAA yes grounds you for 48 hours following any Covid vaccination, after then side effects determine return to work. I know a number of US pilots who are now grounded due to covid directly, particularly due to lung issues. Also the well known case of the BA pilot who died from it after a 4 month battle.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Can I ask how you have calculated that percentage please?

The UK data of about 50 deaths from around 30.8 million doses administered would be 0.00016 percent. If you were to do a rudimentary conversion of doses administered to people fully vaccinated by dividing the former by two, the percentage rises to 0.00032 percent. The Australian data of seven deaths from 6.8 million doses administered yields 0.0001 percent of doses administered and 0.0002 percent of those fully vaccinated.

Might you be out by an order of magnitude?

I'm sure your numbers are correct. We stopped the AZ vaccine early after 3 deaths, so the total number of vaccinated was rather low, around 120-130000. Around 0,0025 %

10 points to turbantime for his: "Don’t get sucked into the ‘survival rate’. Survival does not equal recovery."

[43Inches]

We stopped the AZ vaccine early after 3 deaths, so the total number of vaccinated was rather low, around 120-130000. Around 0,0025 %

I'd have to look into it further, but i'm pretty sure the US version of AZ was from two different sources to the Australian ones. Which for whatever reason had a different rating and were for emergency use only, some sort of manufacturing detail.

[MickG0105]

We stopped the AZ vaccine early after 3 deaths, so the total number of vaccinated was rather low, around 120-130000. Around 0,0025 %

Australia had passed 130,000 doses of AstraZeneca being administered by late March. While there had been some deaths suspected of being linked to AstraZeneca reported in March the first deaths confirmed to be linked to AstraZeneca anywhere weren't reported until April. The third death in Australia linked to the AstraZeneca vaccine was in early July. Well over 5 million doses of AstraZeneca had been administered by then.

Canada temporarily suspended AstraZeneca after three deaths there in mid-May. At that time they had administered over 2 million doses of AstraZeneca.

[43Inches]

Australia had passed 130,000 doses of AstraZeneca being administered by late March. The first deaths linked to AstraZeneca anywhere weren't reported until April. The third death in Australia linked to the AstraZeneca vaccine was in early July. Well over 5 million doses of AstraZeneca had been administered by then.

Sweden and Denmark, as well as Germany and France temporarily suspended AZ in March due to cases of clotting and deaths continuing since it's introduction in Dec 2020. All except Sweden restarted using it after an analyses of the numbers showed the vaccine safe and only very low cases of this reaction. In late 2020 prior to introduction of AZ there was questions regarding it's testing and efficacy results in regard to an number of factors that also led to it being dragged through the mud by the press. All those questions have been answered in subsequent testing and analyses.

[MickG0105]

I'd have to look into it further, but i'm pretty sure the US version of AZ was from two different sources to the Australian ones. Which for whatever reason had a different rating and were for emergency use only, some sort of manufacturing detail.
AstraZeneca has not been used in the US apart from Phase III trials. There were no deaths in those trials. There is currently no FDA emergency use authorisation.

[MickG0105]

Sweden and Denmark, as well as Germany and France temporarily suspended AZ in March due to cases of clotting and deaths continuing since it's introduction in Dec 2020.
Yes, my blue. It was early March when the first death thought to be related to AZ was reported.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Sorry, guys, I forgot to tell you I live in Euroland.

[ManaAdaSystem]

Just did my Class 1, and no change in blood pressure from pre vaccines.
Israel now reports a sharp increase of Delta Covid cases. They have the highest % of vaccinated in the world. The majority of cases are in the unvaccinated part of the population, so the vaccines do work. They do however have a lower protection against serious disease (about 40%) if you are vaccinated and get infected with the Delta strain.

I predict a tough year ahead for Australia.

[WingNut60]

Second AZ yesterday
No noticeable effect whatsoever

[MickG0105]

Israel now reports a sharp increase of Delta Covid cases. They have the highest % of vaccinated in the world.
That's a common misconception. Israel has around 60 percent of the total population vaccinated (nearly 80 percent of the adult population). The UAE, Malta, Iceland, Singapore, Belgium, Canada all have higher rates of vaccination.

The majority of cases are in the unvaccinated part of the population, so the vaccines do work. They do however have a lower protection against serious disease (about 40%) if you are vaccinated and get infected with the Delta strain.

That is not what the data shows. Israel maintains an outstanding publicly available Coronavirus dashboard (https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general?utm_source=go.gov.il&utm_medium=referral). It shows >80 percent efficacy against serious illness amongst the fully vaccinated and around 60 percent efficacy against serious illness amongst the partially vaccinated (one dose).

[turbantime]

That is not what the data shows. Israel maintains an outstanding publicly available Coronavirus dashboard (https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general?utm_source=go.gov.il&utm_medium=referral). It shows >80 percent efficacy against serious illness amongst the fully vaccinated and around 60 percent efficacy against serious illness amongst the partially vaccinated (one dose).
How does one access the English version of this site?

[MickG0105]

How does one access the English version of this site?

Good question. I just let Google translate do its thing.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1999x1031/screenshot_20210813_075749_chrome_5584be1d4c218d8a4c48ec8cb7 13e2b71af19152.jpg

[turbantime]

Good question. I just let Google translate do its thing.

Thanks mate

[HappyBandit]

Can I ask how you have calculated that percentage please?

The UK data of about 50 deaths from around 30.8 million doses administered would be 0.00016 percent. If you were to do a rudimentary conversion of doses administered to people fully vaccinated by dividing the former by two, the percentage rises to 0.00032 percent. The Australian data of seven deaths from 6.8 million doses administered yields 0.0001 percent of doses administered and 0.0002 percent of those fully vaccinated.

Might you be out by an order of magnitude?
Not quite. The second dose rates of TTP is close to 1 in 1 million with fatalities only about 15%. So we are talking 0.00001% at best for 2nd dose.

Myocarditis and pericarditis is about 1/50,000. Interestingly doesn't receive much media attention.

[43Inches]

One thing that's obvious from this sad period of human history is that most can not understand how to interpret statistics.

When you have people that think 1 in 100 is an acceptable rate of disease and that 1 in 100,000 is to worry about I fear that basic math is lacking.

If you want a simpleton example, you fill the MCG to capacity (100,000), give them all Covid. If they are unvaccinated worst case scenario is around 5000 people die, that reduces to 2000 die if medical care is 1st world standard.

For a morbid example of what 2000 dead looks like, a Metro train has crush capacity for 1000, so 2000 dead is 2 full train-sets crammed with dead bodies so as it rolled passed you would just see dead bodies pressed against the doors and windows with no space.

If you were to fill the MCG with unvaccinated over 65s alone the death toll could be as much as 40,000 without care, Dropping to about 20,000 with 1st world standard care.

Empty and clean the MCG you then refill with Vaccinated people and spread the virus around, 1 person might die from the vaccine, at current rate of 97% reduction in deaths and serious side effects, 150 (based on the 5000 non care rate) would die from Covid. So a total Death toll of 151.

To use the train example, that would be 2 out of 12 cars (two sets) with seating for each dead rather than packed in.

Anything beyond 1 in 10,000 is so rare its barely worth thinking of, and anything under 1 in 1000 is considered commonplace. Hence why the medical occurrence ratings stop at 1:10,000 beyond that its statistically rare to null chance of occurring.

[HappyBandit]

One thing that's obvious from this sad period of human history is that most can not understand how to interpret statistics.

When you have people that think 1 in 100 is an acceptable rate of disease and that 1 in 100,000 is to worry about I fear that basic math is lacking.

If you want a simpleton example, you fill the MCG to capacity (100,000), give them all Covid. If they are unvaccinated worst case scenario is around 5000 people die, that reduces to 2000 die if medical care is 1st world standard.

For a morbid example of what 2000 dead looks like, a Metro train has crush capacity for 1000, so 2000 dead is 2 full train-sets crammed with dead bodies so as it rolled passed you would just see dead bodies pressed against the doors and windows with no space.

If you were to fill the MCG with unvaccinated over 65s alone the death toll could be as much as 40,000 without care, Dropping to about 20,000 with 1st world standard care.

Empty and clean the MCG you then refill with Vaccinated people and spread the virus around, 1 person might die from the vaccine, at current rate of 97% reduction in deaths and serious side effects, 150 (based on the 5000 non care rate) would die from Covid. So a total Death toll of 151.

To use the train example, that would be 2 out of 12 cars (two sets) with seating for each dead rather than packed in.

Anything beyond 1 in 10,000 is so rare its barely worth thinking of, and anything under 1 in 1000 is considered commonplace. Hence why the medical occurrence ratings stop at 1:10,000 beyond that its statistically rare to null chance of occurring.

Im not sure who you are directing this at 43? I'm pretty strong on bio stats and epidemiology and can bore you to death at a Covid party on positive predictive values, risk ratio's and the differences between specificity and sensitivity. But you're right from the aspect that everything we do in life, including flying a plane involves an element of risk. Each of us just has varying degrees of acceptance of that risk. When it comes to vaccine's again there is a risk, but like you said, it's incredibly small. Is it not worth talking about? No, as everyone should be fully aware of what those risks are, but they're incredibly small too. In the words of Gladys, vaccines offer "Green Shoots!"

[43Inches]

Im not sure who you are directing this at 43? I'm pretty strong on bio stats and epidemiology and can bore you to death at a Covid party on positive predictive values, risk ratio's and the differences between specificity and sensitivity. But you're right from the aspect that everything we do in life, including flying a plane involves an element of risk. Each of us just has varying degrees of acceptance of that risk. When it comes to vaccine's again there is a risk, but like you said, it's incredibly small. Is it not worth talking about? No, as everyone should be fully aware of what those risks are, but they're incredibly small too. In the words of Gladys, vaccines offer "Green Shoots!"

It's a general comment not aimed at anyone in particular. However stats beyond 1:10000 are so negligible that general life risks exceed them therefore it's really not worth mentioning. My point being the effects of sub 1:100 stats are noticeable, you would notice the dead for instance what happened in NY with freezer trucks full of bodies. Where getting anxious over 1:100,000 stats of getting a clot just is needless worry over something that is not a "risk" per se. And we can see how the general public responded to that overall. Over 1:10,000 you have already passed your chance of lopping a finger off with a mower today, or falling off a ladder and breaking a hip territory.

I just looked up some stats, and a Lawn Mower has about 1:10,000 chance of maiming a user. Shopping trollies have about a 1:20,000 chance of causing injury to a user requiring hospitalisation. Just silly numbers that wouldn't stop you using either.

[HappyBandit]

It's a general comment not aimed at anyone in particular. However stats beyond 1:10000 are so negligible that general life risks exceed them therefore it's really not worth mentioning. My point being the effects of sub 1:100 stats are noticeable, you would notice the dead for instance what happened in NY with freezer trucks full of bodies. Where getting anxious over 1:100,000 stats of getting a clot just is needless worry over something that is not a "risk" per se. And we can see how the general public responded to that overall. Over 1:10,000 you have already passed your chance of lopping a finger off with a mower today, or falling off a ladder and breaking a hip territory.

I just looked up some stats, and a Lawn Mower has about 1:10,000 chance of maiming a user. Shopping trollies have about a 1:20,000 chance of causing injury to a user requiring hospitalisation. Just silly numbers that wouldn't stop you using either.

Yes agree, but I hate these comparisons. Compare apples with applies. Eg Risk of death from blood clots between AZ and Pfizer. That's more meaningful. Secondly, there's a difference between maiming of finger compared to 25-75% of death with a cerebral thromboembolism. The likelihood is extremely low, but the outcome is reasonably bad (more of a better term-cant really get worse than death). But again the initial risk is extremely low. Just don't make indirect comparisons.

[43Inches]

Secondly, there's a difference between maiming of finger compared to 25-75% of death with a cerebral thromboembolism. The likelihood is extremely low, but the outcome is reasonably bad (more of a better term-cant really get worse than death). But again the initial risk is extremely low. Just don't make indirect comparisons.

From an empathetic point of view death is the worst.

From an economic point of view maiming and disability are far worse.

Out of $1000 car registration will cost in the coming years per annum, 75% is CTP. That is not to cover your death, that is to cover mostly injury and recovery compensation.

The reason statistics in this area are so thorough is that companies pay for them to be accurate to be able to quantify risk assessment. Risk of death is fairly to the back of most peoples mind as humans are not as easy to kill as we might think, but we are easy to damage. Hence life insurance, cheap, health insurance, horribly expensive. The problem with throwing 1:1000 or 1:1000000 around, to the layman, it still has 1 in front of it, so it's somehow all similar, "oh but there's a chance i die". You can put 100 zeros after the decimal in a percentage chance and to the uneducated the number somehow looks bigger.

The comparison I made was stated for simpletons, comparing AZ to Pf for the average human is not even relevant, they should just take whatever they are given, subject to them having any conditions relevant to either, the chance of side effects is minuscule. Other nations you turn up and get vaccinated, no one gets a choice of vaccine.

[jmmoric]

Got the Jannsen a few weeks back.

Had a terrible time falling asleep that evening with coldsweat and headache, started in the evening some 8-10 hours after I got the shot.

Was gone in the morning, and have been fine ever since.

Update:
I got a booster shot about a week ago. It was offered since the Jannsen (johnson and Johnson) isnt as effective against the D variant as hoped¨.

It was a Moderna shot to boost..... and that kicked the legs away from under me the next day.... headache and ache in all joints plus being tired. I was easily solved with painkillers and sleeping most of the day away though.

But fine ever afterwards.