Beards in the RAF

[Haraka]

As an old stager I recall an Air Force within which you could only sport a beard in uniform following facial burns or a skin allergy.Those on RN Service also got away with it.
Having been sensitised by a recent couple of examples, I now am conscious of seemingly increasing numbers of RAF "Beardies"..
I fear you reap what you sow................

[OvertHawk]

What a terrible state of affairs... It's appalling.

Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I shall write to my MP at once and in the event of war breaking out I will be demanding that we boycott the RAF until they are all clean-shaven.

:rolleyes:

[alfred_the_great]

As an old stager I recall an Air Force within which you could only sport a beard in uniform following facial burns or a skin allergy.Those on RN Service also got away with it.
Having been sensitised by a recent couple of examples, I now am conscious of seemingly increasing numbers of RAF "Beardies"..
I fear you reap what you sow................

what precisely are you “reaping”?

[Tankertrashnav]

We gave this subject a good going over a year or two back https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/608688-raf-beards.html?highlight=beards

Nearly 200 replies, might be worth reading through if you missed it first time.

[Haraka]

Thanks TTN I missed it.
I'll look back
H.
As of 1st September 2019 apparently.....
Hair nets "in" yet?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I image your blood-pressure rising when you learn that RAF personnel aren't wearing uniform whilst working from home.

Take a loyalty pill VP! Surely that's why video calls are the norm, so the SWO can check the standard of your ironing?

[Jamesair1]

Dreadful state of affairs....it will be false eyelashes next 😈

[Bob Viking]

This RAF beardy weirdy thanks you for your concern.

I will be sure to be on the look out for freshly sown seeds to reap.

BV

PS. I think they look scruffy as hell but I have always hated shaving so I’m happy as Larry. How’s that for double standards?!

[622]

...and don't forget...it applies to the men to! :O

[Mil-26Man]

If this boils your blood Haraka, wait until you hear about what happened the other day to a young RAF Regiment recruit. Oh, I forget - you did, and you were totally ok with it.

[Non Linear Gear]

This RAF beardy weirdy thanks you for your concern.

I will be sure to be on the look out for freshly sown seeds to reap.

BV

PS. I think they look scruffy as hell but I have always hated shaving so I’m happy as Larry. How’s that for double standards?!

I personally cannot stand stubble on my face. Never had a balancing slug when in and never wanted one since I was out. Maybe because anything attempted 1/. didn't grow. 2/. was ginger. I do need a ruddy good hair cut mind!

[Haraka]

If this boils your blood Haraka, wait until you hear about what happened the other day to a young RAF Regiment recruit. Oh, I forget - you did, and you were totally ok with it.
The originator. in my opinion quite rightly, pulled that thread and I won't be goaded by your simplistic and incorrect allegation into resurrecting it here.

[sycamore]

Good grief.!,with all the pay you chaps get now I would have thought that you would have bought Flag-poles,whistles and flags , in the garden for ceremonial `raising/lowering ,if working from home,dressed appropriately of course...!!

[Non Linear Gear]

The originator. in my opinion quite rightly, pulled that thread and I won't be goaded by your simplistic and incorrect allegation into resurrecting it here.
Surprised the Rocks didn't get the razors out. Would have done in the old days. An Eye Brow for and Eye Brow. Drunk armourers were always losing them.

[Mogwi]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1264x1581/41small_1b0cd9d75bcadd99b976c1f20f7abe7637d9509e.jpg
We used to have them back in the days of black and white!

OK, so it ain't that great but it helped pass the time!

Mog

[Ken Scott]

Bang goes your anonymity, Mogwi...!!

[Just This Once...]

I just appreciate that Mog has both his name and which hand it is (RIGHT / STBD) written on the back of his glove.

Anyway, dashing good looks or something.

[Ninthace]

I just appreciate that Mog has both his name and which hand it is (RIGHT / STBD) written on the back of his glove.

Anyway, dashing good looks or something.
I wonder where he wrote UP and DOWN?

[downsizer]

Sums up this (and many) threads:

Every time literally anything changes in the RAF:

Serving personnel: ok whatever

Veterans (who are 100% unaffected): THIS IS AN OUTRAGE THE END OF THE RAF WAY TOO PC NOW AINT MY RAF.

[highflyer40]

Take a loyalty pill VP! Surely that's why video calls are the norm, so the SWO can check the standard of your ironing?

Naw, just say you don’t have a camera on your computer.

[Tocsin]

And if using an official one: "bandwidth problems, Boss!" :)

[Training Risky]

I can understand that Darn Sarf they had a few more pressing concerns than shaving, so Mog can be excused his bum fluff.

But on a cosy airfield somewhere in England (or Canada for some on here) it doesn't take much time to shave and it looks way way much smarter than tipping into met brief/1st parade looking like the biker from the Village People.

Why did the Air Force Board stop at shaving? Why not let everyone wear civvies and dispense with saluting? Why not get everyone to wear a commercial logo on their polo shirts and earn some extra moolah?

But I'm a retired old fart so back to the Times and a big leather armchair for a snooze!

[flighthappens]

One could choose to be offended by the service accomodation, lack of work life balance, increasing cuts to facilities and capabilities, or any number of other things. Or one could choose to be offended by beards...

[Haraka]

One could choose to be offended by the service accomodation, lack of work life balance, increasing cuts to facilities and capabilities, or any number of other things. Or one could choose to be offended by beards...
Hence my "reap what you sow" implication. Pandering to ever multiplying "Wokeness" current pressures on the Service, whilst sidestepping key issues, is a dangerous path to follow in the longer term.

[Bob Viking]

I hear you about wokeness. I think you need to choose your battles a little better though.

Allowing beards is not ‘woke’. It’s just a reflection of changing times.

In the 18th century men used to plait their hair and wear wigs into battle. Eventually that went out of favour and times moved on. How is the acceptance of beards any different?

Remember, change isn’t wrong. It’s just different.

I also think that those no longer serving shouldn’t really expect a vote on what is acceptable any more. There are an awful lot of practices from bygone eras that we no longer use. That can be good and bad.

I don’t really allow any of it to upset me too much. And I am still serving.

D&I training days are another great example of something that upsets a lot of people (especially older males). However, from listening to the conversations of some people that I serve alongside it is clear that we have a way to go before they are no longer required.

Honestly there are bigger and better things to get upset about.

BV

[just another jocky]

I hear you about wokeness. I think you need to choose your battles a little better though.

Allowing beards is not ‘woke’. It’s just a reflection of changing times.

In the 18th century men used to plait their hair and wear wigs into battle. Eventually that went out of favour and times moved on. How is the acceptance of beards any different?

Remember, change isn’t wrong. It’s just different.

I also think that those no longer serving shouldn’t really expect a vote on what is acceptable any more. There are an awful lot of practices from bygone eras that we no longer use. That can be good and bad.

I don’t really allow any of it to upset me too much. And I am still serving.

D&I training days are another great example of something that upsets a lot of people (especially older males). However, from listening to the conversations of some people that I serve alongside it is clear that we have a way to go before they are no longer required.

Honestly there are bigger and better things to get upset about.

BV
Well said m8. :ok:

[downsizer]

well said m8.

text speak! Oh my god this forum is ruined!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Raaaaaaaggggee11111!!!!!!!!

[212man]

Beards are a great way to visibly distinguish blunties from aircrew as even though they are allowed in the regs, aircrew are still not allowed to have them.
BV seemed to imply he may have one?

This RAF beardy weirdy thanks you for your concern.

I will be sure to be on the look out for freshly sown seeds to reap.

BV

PS. I think they look scruffy as hell but I have always hated shaving so I’m happy as Larry. How’s that for double standards?!

[Ewan Whosearmy]

212Man, not sure that Bob works for the same Air Force as you...

On a practical note, does the beard interfere with the fit of the mask, especially if pressure breathing is active?

[Mil-26Man]

212Man, not sure that Bob works for the same Air Force as you...

On a practical note, does the beard interfere with the fit of the mask, especially if pressure breathing is active?

Clearly not, looking at Mogwi's picture.

[Torchy]

Clearly not, looking at Mogwi's picture.

I think Mogwi looks pretty good for 73!

[The Oberon]

Well there was always this precedent.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/338x450/u_g_q120c7a0_21fd1406054f846d9a5fa368e596581bd6080013.jpg

[Mil-26Man]

I think Mogwi looks pretty good for 73!

It's the beard!

[Training Risky]

The Royals don't count.

The Prince James Hewitt Jr used to wear one in full dress uniform but he's bu66ered off to California now so forget him.

[Brewers Droop]

Beards in the RAF appears to not be on my list of problems in the world to worry about?

Am I missing something?

[Cat Techie]

Sums up this (and many) threads:

Every time literally anything changes in the RAF:

Serving personnel: ok whatever

Veterans (who are 100% unaffected): THIS IS AN OUTRAGE THE END OF THE RAF WAY TOO PC NOW AINT MY RAF.

Well some people have been out of the armed forces way longer that they were in them! 🤣🤣

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Clearly not, looking at Mogwi's picture.

Mog has been very kind to me in the past, so I shall choose my words carefully... what I mean is, does a full beard interfere with the seal of the mask?!

[Union Jack]

212Man, not sure that Bob works for the same Air Force as you...

On a practical note, does the beard interfere with the fit of the mask, especially if pressure breathing is active?

Not completely, if the attached photo of BV's Doppelgänger is anything to go by https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/viking-age-ribe-comb-runes-alphabet-spd :D

Jack

[Mogwi]

I was only young, yer honour!:ok:

[Two's in]

I hear you about wokeness...D&I training days are another great example of something that upsets a lot of people (especially older males). However, from listening to the conversations of some people that I serve alongside it is clear that we have a way to go before they are no longer required.
BV

BV, very true and very astute. I experience this constantly. Not living in Blighty just now, I can only conclude from internet and media studies the the phrase "Woke" is a term meaning: "Someone has called me on my crass and self-centered views".

[212man]

212Man, not sure that Bob works for the same Air Force as you...

On a practical note, does the beard interfere with the fit of the mask, especially if pressure breathing is active?
I don’t work for any Air Force anymore, but I think/thought BV works for the one in question.

[Lima Juliet]

I must admit that I am not a fan of beards, but then some of my mates have them due to their religious beliefs, so it is hard to say ‘no beards’ when they get to have one due to their imaginary friends. So, it’s either all or nothing, so I think it is indefensible to say no to some and yes to others.

Here is an interesting scientific study into firefighter’s masks and the effects of beards on their performance: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3564146/

Now, what is often interesting whenever your life depends on a good seal - fire fighting, needing pressure or 100% oxygen breathing or in CBRN then it is amazing how quickly the razors come out!!! If I held the risk of Aircrew flying with beards, where even some of the masks have stamped inside them that beards will lessen their effectiveness, then there is no way, coupled to studies like the above, that I would authorise beards for Aircrew flying in aircraft with oxygen systems.

[ex-fast-jets]

You weren't "young" then, MOG.

Just younger than you are now!!

[Lomon]

Hence my "reap what you sow" implication. Pandering to ever multiplying "Wokeness" current pressures on the Service, whilst sidestepping key issues, is a dangerous path to follow in the longer term.
Join the 21st century!

If the RAF is to survive the next 100 years it needs to accept the need to change.
Women CAN get pregnant, have a baby and still contribute to the service. (Shock horror they can even fly aircraft and join the RAF Regiment)
Being gay does not make you an automatic target for blackmail.
Having a beard does not instantly make you scruffy (The design of our current PCS and the insistence that a short jacket should be tucked in like a shirt does)
Not being a straight white male does not make you incapable of doing the job.

Have you seen the state of people's hair at the moment? Long and unkempt, or uneven from trying to DIY cut it.... but that is currently the law of the land. The RAF has accepted that, and do you know what? Despite a global pandemic, despite people being ill, despite not being able to go on leave to visit family, despite not meeting new born nephews, nieces and cousins, despite not being able to say goodbye to loved ones - those scruffy, unkempt men and women (white, black, straight, gay, cis, trans or bearded) we have still managed to introduce new platforms and capabilities, police the skies of the UK and the Balkans and even continue operations in the middle East.

[MountainMetman]

From conversation with aircrew down at MPA last year there seemed to be a belief that the seal around the top of the nose was of more concern than the beard, but after a jet had to descend rapidly owing to oxygen issues a high rank in charge decided that beards were unsafe without having much scientific evidence either way so banned the fast fleet from growing them (albeit keeping the usual exemptions). Others in charge decided solidarity was necessary so rolled the same rule across slower aircraft.
How much is true I'm not sure but this tour there are fewer beards than there were last year when the rule had just changed, I miss the weekly beard parade with the CWO inspecting each beard for compliance...

[Bob Viking]

I don’t work for any Air Force anymore, but I think/thought BV works for the one in question.

I am still a serving officer in HM’s RAF but my flying currently occurs in a place where, were I to shave my beard, I would literally be the only male on station with a clean face.

As for the mask seal, I have not had any problems so far. The jet will helpfully tell us if our mask seal is not complete and the highest I routinely fly is the mid 20’s anyway.

BV

[Willard Whyte]

A neatly trimmed goatee would solve the mask sealing issue.

[Training Risky]

Join the 21st century!

If the RAF is to survive the next 100 years it needs to accept the need to change.
Women CAN get pregnant, have a baby and still contribute to the service. (Shock horror they can even fly aircraft and join the RAF Regiment)
Being gay does not make you an automatic target for blackmail.
Having a beard does not instantly make you scruffy (The design of our current PCS and the insistence that a short jacket should be tucked in like a shirt does)
Not being a straight white male does not make you incapable of doing the job.

Trying to justify a pathetic woke agenda with appeals to the Gregorian calendar is something that gets right up my nose! It is a lazy form of debate which can be used by both sides. Monarchy, Democracy and Electricity all pre-date the year 2000, shall we discard them based on their antiquity?

Like everyone in the Service, there are good and bad examples. I knew some shocking women who, on returning to work after maternity, used every trick in the book to avoid deployments. I knew militant homosexuals who used the change in policy to bash and threaten colleagues who voiced legitimate criticism of the government's pandering to the gay lobby and the public money spent on appeasing them.

The RAF can survive if it does what it did best. Be a purely meritocratic institution which never needed a PR consultant to tell it how to look and what to say.

[Mil-26Man]

I believe those officers that are balding are allowed to shave their head, whilst those of us who have full heads of hair are not allowed.

I'm sure they'd swap with you.

[Toadstool]

Hence my "reap what you sow" implication. Pandering to ever multiplying "Wokeness" current pressures on the Service, whilst sidestepping key issues, is a dangerous path to follow in the longer term.

Haraka, where and when did you serve? Just so we know what a warrior you were without a beard.

Many of the people I know, sporting beards, have done multiple operational tours being shot at or risking being shot down. What exactly is their wokeness?
Naval aviators have been doing the same for much longer.
Other than demonstrating manliness by being clean shaven or having things stuck up the anus, what else qualifies?
The “woke” RAF that I belong to and have for 20 years, on Ops constantly, would beg to differ.

[212man]

Haraka, where and when did you serve? Just so we know what a warrior you were without a beard.

Many of the people I know, sporting beards, have done multiple operational tours being shot at or risking being shot down. What exactly is their wokeness?
Naval aviators have been doing the same for much longer.
Other than demonstrating manliness by being clean shaven or having things stuck up the anus, what else qualifies?
The “woke” RAF that I belong to and have for 20 years, on Ops constantly, would beg to differ.
Indeed. Two of my close current colleagues have the MC, and one the CGC, all earned whilst sporting beards.

[Haraka]

One reason for anonymity here is to avoid revelation of contributors' Service histories.
I'll leave it at that.

[downsizer]

Haraka Still haven't come up with a good reason not to allow beards though have you?

[Haraka]

Haraka Still haven't come up with a good reason not to allow beards though have you?
I have no problems and never have had with Beards per se
Do note that this thread has taken off at a tangent and ignored my implied concerns regarding the future implications of this type of decision beyond the obvious......

[downsizer]

And what are the future implications?

[Arthur1815]

Recommend a deeper look into identity politics, no-platforming, neo-marxism etc. IMHO something darker lurks behind the common decency of equality, which we should all expect.

[Haraka]

Recommend a deeper look into identity politics, no-platforming, neo-marxism etc. IMHO something darker lurks behind the common decency of equality, which we should all expect.
Thanks Arthur !,
I was getting worried,

[taxydual]

Ah well, we move with the times. 'Talking Armpit's' are now the in thing. Let's hope to God the RAF doesn't go down the earring (for men) route. The thought of CAS in diamante........

[highflyer40]

Ah well, we move with the times. 'Talking Armpit's' are now the in thing. Let's hope to God the RAF doesn't go down the earring (for men) route. The thought of CAS in diamante........

If women can wear certain earrings, then why not men? It’s not my thing, but I don’t see what the big deal is other than some peoples opinions on the way the world should look.

[langleybaston]

If women can wear certain earrings, then why not men? It’s not my thing, but I don’t see what the big deal is other than some peoples opinions on the way the world should look.


Nothing new under the sun.
30 years ago a Met. Observer of mature years, solo on night shift, used to cross-dress when he arrived at 2200, did the shift as a tart, and changed to go home to his wife and family..
Until the Staish popped in for an update, as it were..

[BEagle]

I can understand how awkward it must have been for matelots to shave when bobbing up and down on the briny centuries ago, hence having a 'set' became a naval tradition, along with rum (no longer), bum (now legal...) and the cat (fortunately no longer). But for others unless it's a religious or medical thing, being a weird beard smacks of laziness.

But hey, if you want to look like a ZZ Top impersonater, trendy lefty Corbychev clone or an a***hole with dentures, that's up to you.... The impression your appearance conveys to others is something you might care to consider though.

[Bob Viking]

After a response like that I would expect a fresh crop of blokes would grow a beard just to p1ss you off!

If ever you’d set out to make a single post that shows just how out of touch you have become with the modern military (or even the modern world) that would be it.

Why on Earth should anybody give a monkeys what you think when your views are so crassly demonstrated?

Unless of course you are just on a trolling trip. In which case you got me. Bravo!

BV

[alfred_the_great]

I can understand how awkward it must have been for matelots to shave when bobbing up and down on the briny centuries ago, hence having a 'set' became a naval tradition, along with rum (no longer), bum (now legal...) and the cat (fortunately no longer). But for others unless it's a religious or medical thing, being a weird beard smacks of laziness.

But hey, if you want to look like a ZZ Top impersonater, trendy lefty Corbychev clone or an a***hole with dentures, that's up to you.... The impression your appearance conveys to others is something you might care to consider though.

the old folk are revolting...

[inbalance]

A beard with a covid mask looks like underwear advertising from the 1970s

[highflyer40]

I can understand how awkward it must have been for matelots to shave when bobbing up and down on the briny centuries ago, hence having a 'set' became a naval tradition, along with rum (no longer), bum (now legal...) and the cat (fortunately no longer). But for others unless it's a religious or medical thing, being a weird beard smacks of laziness.

But hey, if you want to look like a ZZ Top impersonater, trendy lefty Corbychev clone or an a***hole with dentures, that's up to you.... The impression your appearance conveys to others is something you might care to consider though.

Why would you care what others think of you? Be happy with who you are and bugger what anyone else thinks of you. The only healthy sane way of getting through life.

[downsizer]

As per my earlier post, I love the fact that the people who it doesn't affect are the ones getting bent out of shape about it....

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

the old folk are revolting...

Some old folk are very revolting!


Aaron

[artyhug]

After a response like that I would expect a fresh crop of blokes would grow a beard just to p1ss you off!

If ever you’d set out to make a single post that shows just how out of touch you have become with the modern military (or even the modern world) that would be it.

Why on Earth should anybody give a monkeys what you think when your views are so crassly demonstrated?

Unless of course you are just on a trolling trip. In which case you got me. Bravo!

BV

Bravo, be careful though as you’ll likely be censored for a ‘personal attack’ despite the fact that certain individuals deem an attack on a group of individuals entirely acceptable.

It is a shame that a forum which was once a genuine source of info has lost the vast majority of it’s serving patrons due to the self important attitudes of a few.

No doubt the stock ad hominem responses will be rolled out by the standard individuals with an utter inability to look at their own actions through the same glass.

[BEagle]

When I wrote But hey, if you want to look like a ZZ Top impersonater, trendy lefty Corbychev clone or an a***hole with dentures, that's up to you.... I wasn't aiming that comment at anyone in particular.

I might think that beards look scruffy, others might not. That's up to the individual.

1970s underwear advertising - brilliant!

[langleybaston]

A beard with a covid mask looks like underwear advertising from the 1970s

Brilliant!

What a nasty gross mental picture that conjures up!

Made my day!

[artyhug]

When I wrote I wasn't aiming that comment at anyone in particular.

I might think that beards look scruffy, others might not. That's up to the individual.

1970s underwear advertising - brilliant!

But you were, you were aiming it at anyone with a beard.

Just like every time you use “Untermenschen” or any other of your favourite dismissive terms.

Just because you don’t use a name doesn’t mean it isn’t personnel.

If you wish to state your views then state them, the childish insults long ago became more than a little wearing.

[Willard Whyte]

Other than demonstrating manliness by being clean shaven...

One could observe that the ability to grow a beard is a sign of manliness, figuratively and/or literally!

[BEagle]

...and that you don't mind the 'velcro effect'......;)

[langleybaston]

But you were, you were aiming it at anyone with a beard.

Just like every time you use “Untermenschen” or any other of your favourite dismissive terms.

Just because you don’t use a name doesn’t mean it isn’t personnel.

If you wish to state your views then state them, the childish insults long ago became more than a little wearing.

Personnel?

I am annoyed by people who do not check their posts before pressing send..

[Bill Macgillivray]

As a "registered" oldie with quite a few years service in the Royal Air Force (long ago!!), and several years service in a couple of other Air Forces, whose native members wore beards if they so wished, I can see no problem, provided that the owners are still smart - as were the ones I knew!! There really cannot be a problem in today's Armed Forces as long as the members are professional and, by definition, smart!

Bill