RAF Voyager ZZ336 Government Transport

[Beatts]

Titan Airways G-XATW currently at Stansted getting repainted to match ZZ336 infamous paint scheme. Due to be a likely replacement for the Bae146.

[Union Jack]

Titan Airways G-XATW currently at Stansted getting repainted to match ZZ336 infamous paint scheme. Due to be a likely replacement for the Bae146.
More detailed info and a photograph will be found at https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637919-titan-airways-2-a.html

Jack

[MPN11]

A bit big to join 32 at Northolt ... positioning at Brize, I assume, if there’s room. Or just called in from STN when needed/justified? More complexity, whichever way you look at it.

”Yes, Prime Minister” ... 😀

[GeeRam]

A bit big to join 32 at Northolt ... positioning at Brize, I assume, if there’s room. Or just called in from STN when needed/justified? More complexity, whichever way you look at it.


G-XATW is a brand new A321NEO leased by Titan from ALC, and they are capable of operating out of London City which has a shorter runway than Northolt, so I don't see why in VIP fit, it couldn't operate from Northolt...??

[Less Hair]

First time I hear that A321neo can operate into and out of EGLC.

[TBM-Legend]

More detailed info and a photograph will be found at https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/637919-titan-airways-2-a.html

Jack


Carnaby Street scheme. I guess Boris will get the moths out of his old suit to match....

[N707ZS]

Is 32 coming to an end.

[NutLoose]

Well they will still have a helicopter and one would assume someone would be needed to handle this.

[chevvron]

A bit big to join 32 at Northolt ... positioning at Brize, I assume, if there’s room. Or just called in from STN when needed/justified? More complexity, whichever way you look at it.

”Yes, Prime Minister” ... 😀
In the days of 'Blair Force One' there were rumours that 32 would be re-located to Farnborough to the extent that part (one third) of the newer hangar on West Apron was to be reserved for a 'special' customer.
This rumour was still extant when I left Farnborough in 2008 when this hangar was still only part built.

[Nige321]

Here you go...

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1245/a321neolr_raf_5df6b89b5e1c4edb53d8dfa98cee1d58a904d3f9.jpg

[Less Hair]

Austin Powers?

[NutLoose]

Doesn't it look more balanced with a sensibly sized aircraft registration on the back placed in line with the United Kingdom instead of the humongus ZZ

[N707ZS]

Interesting how its been sneaked in, remember the fuss from Blairforce 1.

[mcdhu]

Oh cr@p, another Sqn I've been on bites the dust.....and will leave nothing I've flown on the inventory - except the 321!!
mcdhu

[throwaway1]

Can't post link because I'm new but Twitter is reporting a second Titan 321 being painted up in UK colours in NI. G-GBNI

[Krystal n chips]

It's a very fetching 60's / 70's retro paint scheme......

[Cornish Jack]

"... because you're worth it. " :confused:

[Union Jack]

I trust that the PM will use this aircraft for all future visits to Scotland.....:ok:

Jack

[212man]

G-XATW is a brand new A321NEO leased by Titan from ALC, and they are capable of operating out of London City which has a shorter runway than Northolt, so I don't see why in VIP fit, it couldn't operate from Northolt...??

Where do you get that from? Pretty sure the largest type that can operate into LCY is the A318. It got approval when BA introduced the all business class cabin substitute service for Concorde to JFK. I believe Titan also operate one of those ex-BA aircraft too.

[Dan Dare]

A400M has been to City. Pretty sure that’s larger than A318, but your point is still valid.

[Less Hair]

EGLC is not so much about the runway length and tiny apron space but about the steep descent ahead. A321neo? No way.

[treadigraph]

A318, A220-100 and the Embraer E190 (not sure about the E195) I think are the biggest types that are cleared in - not sure how they all compare length/span/weights. The A321 apparently needs about 6500' and City is about a mile.

[NutLoose]

EGLC is not so much about the runway length and tiny apron space but about the steep descent ahead. A321neo? No way.


You know its just been widened

https://airport-world.com/london-city-airport-completes-major-airfield-expansion-projects/

[212man]

You know its just been widened

https://airport-world.com/london-city-airport-completes-major-airfield-expansion-projects/
The article mentions the A220, which is still a lot lighter than the 321. But, as already pointed out, it's about the flight manual approach angle clearance - 5.5 degrees required. (Plus crew training, but irrelevant is a/c not approved.) The expansion also allow a/c to hold by the departure threshold, whereas previously they had to enter and backtrack, so hourly movements greatly improved.

[Davef68]

Presumably they've realised the Voyager is too big/expensive to use for local trips for lesser Ministers than the PM - or have it's military taskings meant it's not been available when needed.

[treadigraph]

At only a mile, Northolt is still too short for an A321 - at MTOW anyway. What happened to the other BA A318, wasn't that kitted out as all first class?

[212man]

At only a mile, Northolt is still too short for an A321 - at MTOW anyway. What happened to the other BA A318, wasn't that kitted out as all first class?
All Club/Business (32 seats I think)

[chevvron]

You know its just been widened

https://airport-world.com/london-city-airport-completes-major-airfield-expansion-projects/
Only the taxiway, not the runway.

[pr00ne]

mcdhu,

Why wouldn't 32 Sqn operate the new A321?

[pr00ne]

Davef68,

Doubt that they/ve realised anything of the kind. This is a new capability replace the 4 32 Sqn BAe 146's, not the Voyager, which I would imagine will be operated pretty much as it has been.

[Friedlander]

mcdhu,

Why wouldn't 32 Sqn operate the new A321?

Why would they? In the current climate, I cannot see the RAF operating a single type like that, and a whole sqn with one A321 and a rotary taxi?

Of course, if the politicians had bought a 737, it could possibly have lived at Lossie with all the others ...

[andrewn]

I'm not sure there's been any mention of these being RAF owned, operated or based. Quite the opposite, appears to be some sort of lease deal with Titan themselves. Could be that the place where they are now IS where they will be based?

[chevvron]

So it looks like Northolt may be handed over to a civilian contactor then if there are to be no RAF aircraft based there.

[Wycombe]

What happened to the other BA A318, wasn't that kitted out as all first class?

There was some coverage a few weeks ago that it (G-EUNA) has gone for scrapping (at Twenthe in Holland) - at only 11 years old.

It does indeed seem that G-XATW will be joined by a second 321Neo, to be registered G-GBNI, that is currently at Finkenwerder.

[Davef68]

So a non-military contractor operated Government Air Service. Presumably it will have defensive aids fitted?

[Ripton]

EGLC is not so much about the runway length and tiny apron space but about the steep descent ahead. A321neo? No way.

I think runway length was an issue for BA's 318s flying the all business class service to JFK, they couldn't get away with a full fuel load hence the fuelling stop at Shannon.

It was a very nice way to fly, nibbles, fizz and starters on the way to Shannon and main course on the ground avoiding any risk of turbulence upsetting it. A bit different from most baby bus flights.

[Jhieminga]

There was a second reason for the stop at Shannon: passengers were processed through US customs during this stopover so that when arriving at JFK, they could proceed as if getting off a regional flight.

[Less Hair]

They are said to have wanted to go to LaGuardia originally which would have been cool arriving "domestic" because of being pre-cleared already. However there is a perimeter rule in place that limits permissible flight lengths at KLGA.

[A4scooter]

Seems a strange choice as a replacement for the 146, the 146 is quite a "self sufficient" aircraft which had it's own stairs fitted and didn't require ground handling equipment to load or unload baggage whereby the A321 is much bigger, looks like it requires external steps, will require a baggage loader & will require longer runways
Surely the BBJ MAX, which is compatible with P8 and P7 with a cargo door would have been more suitable, built in steps, no baggage belt required and great range. In addition if a cargo door was fitted it could be used for the aeromed role?

[champair79]

Surely the BBJ MAX, which is compatible with P8 and P7 with a cargo door would have been more suitable, built in steps, no baggage belt required and great range. In addition if a cargo door was fitted it could be used for the aeromed role?

I suspect this deal with Titan was arrived on pretty quickly and on very favourable conditions for the government. The 2 brand new A321neos were originally intended for TCS Travel use (operated by Titan crews). Most likely due to COVID travel restrictions, Titan have had to be inventive with how they repurpose the aircraft in the short and long term.

I have no background information on where they will be based but I would imagine Stansted at Titan HQ but with the capability to dispatch at short notice to most places. Heathrow has plenty of spare capacity at the moment so the Royal Suite would be suitable.. Stansted is not a million miles from London and of course it could also operate out of Brize. Boris in the past has said that the A330 is rarely available.

champ

[SWBKCB]

Has any of this been confirmed? Could be painted for a film for all we know - they painted one in Indian Airlines colours last year.... :ok:

[G-ARZG]

Has any of this been confirmed? Could be painted for a film for all we know - they painted one in Indian Airlines colours last year.... :ok:
​​​​​​
If you were painting an Airbus for a film, not sure a brand new A321Neo would be your best choice?
(but I've been wrong before)

Then there's the talk of a second ship, G-GBNI, bow ar Finkenwerder

[SWBKCB]

As sensible a choice as some of the suggestions so far....

My point was there seems to be an awful lot of smoke and not much fire. Are the A.321's for 32 sqn, are they replacing the 146's? etc etc

[MPN11]

That is indeed a good question!

Post retirement of the 146, No. 32 (The Royal Squadron) would appear to then consist of one helicopter, presumably being renamed The Royal Flight again. The A330 is not a Detachment of 32, but indeed part of the Brize/Airtanker orbat. How the A321 fits with anyone, at a remote location and under Titan’s management is undoubtedly causing some head-scratching at HQ Air.

The rest of Northolt, exempt 1 AIDU, is largely a collection of orphans from Uxbridge needing a home. And the costs are presumably partly subsidised by Heathrow-Lite, the Biz Jet facility.

It’s a conundrum

[chevvron]

Why would they keep one helicopter as a 'Royal' Squadron when the Royals either use the S76 based at Odiham or a helicopter chartered from Starspeed at Fairoaks (convenient for Bagshot Park and the Royal Lodge in Windsor Great Park)?
As I said, I can see the airfield at Northolt being handed to a civilian contractor leaving the north side as an RAF enclave.

[treadigraph]

Northolt was resurfaced during summer 2019 I think - during Trump's visit, his helicopters were based at Biggin Hill.

[chevvron]

That said, didn't it have the runway redone a couple of years ago...usually a good prediction of closing an airfield!
They re-clad all 4 hangars at Bovingdon in 1968, then closed the airfield next year because it was too costly. The hangars were then demolished so as to build a prison so maybe that's how Northolt will end up.

[Ascoteer]

Why would they keep one helicopter as a 'Royal' Squadron when the Royals either use the S76 based at Odiham or a helicopter chartered from Starspeed at Fairoaks (convenient for Bagshot Park and the Royal Lodge in Windsor Great Park)?
As I said, I can see the airfield at Northolt being handed to a civilian contractor leaving the north side as an RAF enclave.

Royal and ministerial travel is not a primary role of 32 Sqn; this was provided from 'irreducible spare capacity'. CSAT recapitalisation is, apparently, still in place; although less likely something shiny like a BD7500 or G600 is purchased now the government has access to a A321.

[falcon900]

I wonder whether the cheapest way to procure VIP government transport isnt indeed by a charter from the private sector. By committing to a minimum number of hours per year you can secure a reasonable cost, and even get to call the shots on livery if you commit to enough hours. Im guessing that the market is pretty competitive at the moment. Rather like obtaining your car on PCP instead of purchasing it. Avoids the oncost of it being operated within the RAF, maintaining separate airfields, and all the squadron number / Royal flight mumbo jumbo. For those concerned about such important (?) people being flown by "civvies" isnt that the default option anyway?
All seems, for once, remarkably sensible to me.

[Mil-26Man]

I wonder whether the cheapest way to procure VIP government transport isnt indeed by a charter from the private sector. By committing to a minimum number of hours per year you can secure a reasonable cost, and even get to call the shots on livery if you commit to enough hours. Im guessing that the market is pretty competitive at the moment. Rather like obtaining your car on PCP instead of purchasing it. Avoids the oncost of it being operated within the RAF, maintaining separate airfields, and all the squadron number / Royal flight mumbo jumbo. For those concerned about such important (?) people being flown by "civvies" isnt that the default option anyway?
All seems, for once, remarkably sensible to me.

But could you plaster a big Union Jack along the length of a chartered aircraft? Seems to be the goal, as much as anything.

[Ripton]

There was a second reason for the stop at Shannon: passengers were processed through US customs during this stopover so that when arriving at JFK, they could proceed as if getting off a regional flight.

They were on the earlier of the two flights each day but not the later flight which served dinner on the ground as described and ended with the usual unfriendly reception from JFKs customs officers. I assume the reasoning behind the Shannon pre clearance was to allow passengers to get into Manhattan earlier for business meetings; the later flight arrived in the early evening in time for a dinner meeting or drinks so time spent in JFK was less of an issue.

[Union Jack]

But could you plaster a big Union Jack along the length of a chartered aircraft? Seems to be the goal, as much as anything.
I really would much rather that you didn't - there's not enough to go round......:=

Jack

[Less Hair]

So who is using those government flights and couldn't they just book something from Heathrow? What groups are these beyound what the prime minister could use some Netjet or MRTT for?

[Jhieminga]

They were on the earlier of the two flights each day but not the later flight which served dinner on the ground as described and ended with the usual unfriendly reception from JFKs customs officers. I assume the reasoning behind the Shannon pre clearance was to allow passengers to get into Manhattan earlier for business meetings; the later flight arrived in the early evening in time for a dinner meeting or drinks so time spent in JFK was less of an issue.
Did not know that, thanks! :ok:

[chevvron]

So who is using those government flights and couldn't they just book something from Heathrow? What groups are these beyound what the prime minister could use some Netjet or MRTT for?
Netjets are often used by Royals living within 10 - 15 miles of Farnborough.
Basing the A321s there too would avoid the paparazzi.

[esscee]

Back to the original title of this thread, said aircraft ZZ336 just landed at Athens probably to disembark Prince of Wales.

[airsound]

Courtesy of flightradar24, it looks like it's been doing some real work while it's there.....

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/644x622/screenshot_2021_03_25_at_13_27_01_3b3ac2e1bf7257b0a55cb31276 3ae342ce8e6751.png

airsound

[Davef68]

Surely the BBJ MAX, which is compatible with P8 and P7 with a cargo door would have been more suitable, built in steps, no baggage belt required and great range. In addition if a cargo door was fitted it could be used for the aeromed role?

......the Defence Review has a future fixed wing CSAT asset planned.,,it's just that there will probably be a gap in capability

I had heard vague rumours about a BBJ order, but pushed back due to both the Defence Review and the MAX scandal

[chevvron]

Titan Airways G-XATW currently at Stansted getting repainted to match ZZ336 infamous paint scheme. Due to be a likely replacement for the Bae146.
I actually started a thread on this subject about a year ago when I heard a rumour they would be leasing a pair of Airbus A220s which could operate from Northolt.