Flight Engineer 80th Anniversary

[haltonapp]

Today marks the 80th anniversary of the RAF Flight/Air Engineer. By March 1941 both Coastal Command and Bomber Command were employing ex-fitters in the role on a number of aircraft, however, the responsibilities of the Flight Engineer were formalised in Air Ministry Order A190/41 dated 20 March 1941.

[staircase]

why is a Flight Engineer to be compared with a old time coachman?

Because he sits behind two horse's a**ses and has a whiff of horse s*t about him.

And to save me logging on again how about a 'thicket' of Group Captains?

[NutLoose]

I remember on exercise an Air Eng at Brize during one of the exercise CPX trips, ( where they would board an aircraft on the apron for say 4 hours to simulate a resupply trip to Germany. ) coming back in and snagging the aircraft for dusty gauges, gauges he had sat in front of for 4 hours doing nothing. In a fully stocked aircraft thar even had cleaning cloths in it !


..

[Bergerie1]

I always much enjoyed flying with Flight Engineers - a very articulate group of blokes not given to mincing matters. When asked what were the most dangerous things on an aircraft, the F/E pointed to the two pilots up front and replied, "They are."

[ExAscoteer2]

I was very fortunate to fly with some exceptional Flight Engineers in my time.

[Chugalug2]

I started with a Flight Deck of 5; two pilots, a nav, flt eng, and signaller, that was then whittled down to four (no sig), and finally there was just the two of us. Meaning no disrespect to any of the others, I missed most not having a flt eng. They were, without exception, highly knowledgeable about all the various a/c systems and could diagnose faults, offer solutions, and in the final resort supervise repairs/replacements to get us going again. Gentlemen all, I salute you!

[eckhard]

I’ve never had the pleasure of operating with a Flight Engineer, more’s the pity. I was told by others who had, that one of their main virtues was the ability to find the one bar that offered free wings in the evening and then find the best $10 breakfast the next morning.

[NutLoose]

As a civilian licenced engineer the jump to air eng was a couple of weeks course, I remember a guy doing it and getting a job, shortly afterwards they phased out the type and fearing redundancy he was stunned to be told they were sending him on courses to train him up as a pilot.

[Lima Juliet]

The Flight Engineer became the Air Engineer in 1951 around the same time that the 1946 Aircrew Scheme was scrapped (only the Master Aircrew rank remains). The Flight Engineer Flying Badge became the Air Engineer Flying Badge in the new Queen’s Regulations shortly after.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/831x611/7f7a6169_81a0_48e2_90ea_096770156a2e_e338419f9ba31cf4e2f2c34 85fc2c6b2ee658171.jpeg

The next change for the Air Engineer was when it was subsumed into the Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) cadre - as a WSOp (A Eng). When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.

[NutLoose]

Air Eng to Air Loadmaster, not putting down Loadmasters, but that seems a bit of a drop in status.

[Wensleydale]

T

When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.

Surely the BBMF Lancaster still flies with a flight engineer? I know many Sentry FEs that filled the post on BBMF.

[charliegolf]

Air Eng to Air Loadmaster, not putting down Loadmasters, but that seems a bit of a drop in status.

Could be worse, could be a spanner monkey? No?:E Not putting down techies of course.

CG

[Lima Juliet]

Surely the BBMF Lancaster still flies with a flight engineer? I know many Sentry FEs that filled the post on BBMF.

All of the Flight Engineers have long since retired, but there are some Air Engineers left :cool:

Yes, although they may use the Co-Pilot in future to monitor the engines and keep the fuel balanced in the tanks. In 2019 there were just 30 WSOp (A Eng) left - source: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/890932/FOI2020.01215.pdf
over 53% of them have less than 5 years to serve. Looking at the stats then <6% (ie. all 2 of them!) are aged between 40-44 in 2019. I think the last were trained in about 2004 - so if they were then they might be early 40s (all 2 of them). If the BBMF can find the AVGAS 100LL replacement to fly the fleet in the future, that is - there are other things other than a paucity of Air Engineers that are likely to see the fleet no longer flying at some point unless a viable alternative fuel can be found: https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/techart12-30071515.html

[Krystal n chips]

Here you go.....only ever met three who were anything but what you would expect an F/E to be....all the rest were a pleasure to do business with as they say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4TRSYhrEJE

[NutLoose]

Could be worse, could be a spanner monkey? No?:E Not putting down techies of course.

CG

what I was trying to put across was surely it would have been better to use that experience and train those suitable as pilots. At least that would equate as equal to skill level.

[Lima Juliet]

NutLoose , I think you would be surprised what the Air Loadmaster does these days - now being a part of a 3 person crew, that used to be done by 5 Aircrew, then the remaining tasks have been dished out between the Captain, Co-Pilot and Air Loadmaster.

[BEagle]

Air Engineers were top chaps in the main - certainly in the VC10 AAR world!

It was rare to see the late 'Wally' rising to the bait, but when the late 'RFK' innocently asked him whether "Engineers receive flying pay like Aircrew do", he was up to a good head of steam until he saw the evil Irish grin and knew it was a wind up!

[Herod]

Agreed, LJ. I can't forward Nuttie's comment to a retired ALM friend of mine, His blood pressure wouldn't stand it.

[ewe.lander]

K n'C LOVE the video, I had the privilege of been a clown and a joker with some exceptional FE's on the RAF C-130 fleet. Never minded anybody in the crew having 40 winks providing the 'stuck in the middle' stayed alert.....

[ExSp33db1rd]

Flight Engineers ? Salt of the earth, vowed never to fly without one, and didn't until buying a single seat VW powered Turbulent in retirement, when I became one ! Early on, wondering whether to improve on my School Cert French - fail, and often flying to Rome or Barcelona, I couldn't decide whether to learn Italian or Spanish, . "Don't bother" said the F/Eng of the day, " You only need one phrase in all languages, Two beers please, my friend will pay. " Saw me through my world wide career, that did.

As trainee Nav. on the Stratocrsuiser, we often carried two F/Eng's, and they were all looking sideways at their jobs, having seen the Radio Op. go, and with the likes of me, the Nav's were next, so how long did F/Eng's have ? Actually longer than anticipated at that time, but it didn't seem so then, so there was little love lost between the F/Eng's and the pilots, whom the F/Eng's reckoned were out for their jobs. I once overheard the senior F/Eng. handing over the watch to his mate, and after explaining the wheres, and whats of their engine log, he said " The pilots forgot to log the Off Chocks time - don't tell them ! " Happy Days.

[ShyTorque]

Air Eng to Air Loadmaster, not putting down Loadmasters, but that seems a bit of a drop in status.

The difficulty might be leaving the ego behind.....

I’ve been flying single crew for more than twenty years and am quite happy to operate like that, but the most enjoyable flying I’ve done was with helicopter loadies/crewmen on board.

CG, LSH, never say I don’t do compliments... ;)

[charliegolf]

The difficulty might be leaving the ego behind.....

I’ve been flying single crew for more than twenty years and am quite happy to operate like that, but the most enjoyable flying I’ve done was with helicopter loadies/crewmen on board.

CG, LSH, never say I don’t do compliments... ;)

Always my fave Shy:ok:

CG

[huge72]

Well said Shy. When I left the rotary world for the first time in the 80's, on day one of the flying phase of the Herc OCU, I was in the crewroom with the other Loadie, like myself ex rotary, when the Chief Eng instructor came in with all the new baby Eng studes. He took one look at us and said to them: ''See the two loadies over there, they have brevets already, which means they are probably ex rotary and think they are engineers. Well we are going to show them the're not''. Later during the flying phase on start up, I had the last laugh when the GTC wouldn't start and he once again had a dig by saying: ''If the Loadie knew anything about it he would tell you what's wrong''. At which point I diagnosed the fault correctly and what to do about it followed by what would I know as I am only good for making the coffee!!! Its no wonder after 18 months I requested, a got a posting back to rotary and the QCHI post on 72. Mind you I won't blame all of the C130 world as attitudes had changed by the time I arrived back at Lyneham in 97.

[NutLoose]

Hugh I could believe that, I knew BJ of Falklands fame and our careers kept meeting up.
He was on the Puma OCU at the time I worked there and being both northerners we got on well, I next saw him on Chinooks during his OCU course and also in RAFG when he participated on an exercise at Wegberg and we got a chance to catch up.
The next time I saw him was at Brize on the Tens when I entered a darkened VC10 on the front, he was patiently awaiting someone to arrive as a Loadmaster wasn’t even allowed to put power on! Which was a heck of a let down from what he had done in his past.

[sangiovese.]

BJ....RIP delightful man. Loved flying with him

[Sideshow Bob]

[QUOTE=Krystal n chips;11013167]Here you go.....only ever met three who were anything but what you would expect an F/E to be..../QUOTE]

Who were the other two lol
(ex Nimrod & Tristar Air Engineer)