Flight Engineer 80th Anniversary
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Flight Engineer 80th Anniversary
Today marks the 80th anniversary of the RAF Flight/Air Engineer.By March 1941 both Coastal Command and Bomber Command were employing ex-fitters in the role on a number of aircraft, however, the responsibilities of the Flight Engineer were formalised in Air Ministry Order A190/41 dated 20 March 1941.
why is a Flight Engineer to be compared with a old time coachman?
Because he sits behind two horse's a**ses and has a whiff of horse s*t about him.
And to save me logging on again how about a 'thicket' of Group Captains?
Because he sits behind two horse's a**ses and has a whiff of horse s*t about him.
And to save me logging on again how about a 'thicket' of Group Captains?
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I remember on exercise an Air Eng at Brize during one of the exercise CPX trips, ( where they would board an aircraft on the apron for say 4 hours to simulate a resupply trip to Germany. ) coming back in and snagging the aircraft for dusty gauges, gauges he had sat in front of for 4 hours doing nothing. In a fully stocked aircraft thar even had cleaning cloths in it !
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Last edited by NutLoose; 20th Mar 2021 at 19:36.
I always much enjoyed flying with Flight Engineers - a very articulate group of blokes not given to mincing matters. When asked what were the most dangerous things on an aircraft, the F/E pointed to the two pilots up front and replied, "They are."
I started with a Flight Deck of 5; two pilots, a nav, flt eng, and signaller, that was then whittled down to four (no sig), and finally there was just the two of us. Meaning no disrespect to any of the others, I missed most not having a flt eng. They were, without exception, highly knowledgeable about all the various a/c systems and could diagnose faults, offer solutions, and in the final resort supervise repairs/replacements to get us going again. Gentlemen all, I salute you!
I’ve never had the pleasure of operating with a Flight Engineer, more’s the pity. I was told by others who had, that one of their main virtues was the ability to find the one bar that offered free wings in the evening and then find the best $10 breakfast the next morning.
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As a civilian licenced engineer the jump to air eng was a couple of weeks course, I remember a guy doing it and getting a job, shortly afterwards they phased out the type and fearing redundancy he was stunned to be told they were sending him on courses to train him up as a pilot.
The Flight Engineer became the Air Engineer in 1951 around the same time that the 1946 Aircrew Scheme was scrapped (only the Master Aircrew rank remains). The Flight Engineer Flying Badge became the Air Engineer Flying Badge in the new Queen’s Regulations shortly after.
The next change for the Air Engineer was when it was subsumed into the Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) cadre - as a WSOp (A Eng). When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.
The next change for the Air Engineer was when it was subsumed into the Weapon Systems Operator (WSOp) cadre - as a WSOp (A Eng). When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 21st Mar 2021 at 21:26. Reason: Slight typo
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Air Eng to Air Loadmaster, not putting down Loadmasters, but that seems a bit of a drop in status.
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When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.
When the E3D Sentry goes out of service (which may be quite quickly if the rumours of the Defence Command Paper are true - due out this Monday) then that will be the last pure Air Eng role on an RAF aircraft. The last few Air Engs will either need to retrain for other WSO/WSOp roles or be used in flying related roles (like Air Safety). A few Air Engineers have already retrained in Air Loadmaster, Mission Systems Operator and Sensor Operator roles - thus proving the worth of the Weapon Systems Officer and Weapon Systems Operator vision where mission aircrew can retrain for a variety of roles and use their previously learned expertise too.
Not putting down techies of course.
Yes, although they may use the Co-Pilot in future to monitor the engines and keep the fuel balanced in the tanks. In 2019 there were just 30 WSOp (A Eng) left - source: https://assets.publishing.service.go...2020.01215.pdf
over 53% of them have less than 5 years to serve. Looking at the stats then <6% (ie. all 2 of them!) are aged between 40-44 in 2019. I think the last were trained in about 2004 - so if they were then they might be early 40s (all 2 of them). If the BBMF can find the AVGAS 100LL replacement to fly the fleet in the future, that is - there are other things other than a paucity of Air Engineers that are likely to see the fleet no longer flying at some point unless a viable alternative fuel can be found: https://www.shell.com/business-custo...-30071515.html
Thought police antagonist
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Here you go.....only ever met three who were anything but what you would expect an F/E to be....all the rest were a pleasure to do business with as they say
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NutLoose , I think you would be surprised what the Air Loadmaster does these days - now being a part of a 3 person crew, that used to be done by 5 Aircrew, then the remaining tasks have been dished out between the Captain, Co-Pilot and Air Loadmaster.
Air Engineers were top chaps in the main - certainly in the VC10 AAR world!
It was rare to see the late 'Wally' rising to the bait, but when the late 'RFK' innocently asked him whether "Engineers receive flying pay like Aircrew do", he was up to a good head of steam until he saw the evil Irish grin and knew it was a wind up!
It was rare to see the late 'Wally' rising to the bait, but when the late 'RFK' innocently asked him whether "Engineers receive flying pay like Aircrew do", he was up to a good head of steam until he saw the evil Irish grin and knew it was a wind up!
K n'C LOVE the video, I had the privilege of been a clown and a joker with some exceptional FE's on the RAF C-130 fleet. Never minded anybody in the crew having 40 winks providing the 'stuck in the middle' stayed alert.....
Flight Engineers ? Salt of the earth, vowed never to fly without one, and didn't until buying a single seat VW powered Turbulent in retirement, when I became one ! Early on, wondering whether to improve on my School Cert French - fail, and often flying to Rome or Barcelona, I couldn't decide whether to learn Italian or Spanish, . "Don't bother" said the F/Eng of the day, " You only need one phrase in all languages, Two beers please, my friend will pay. " Saw me through my world wide career, that did.
As trainee Nav. on the Stratocrsuiser, we often carried two F/Eng's, and they were all looking sideways at their jobs, having seen the Radio Op. go, and with the likes of me, the Nav's were next, so how long did F/Eng's have ? Actually longer than anticipated at that time, but it didn't seem so then, so there was little love lost between the F/Eng's and the pilots, whom the F/Eng's reckoned were out for their jobs. I once overheard the senior F/Eng. handing over the watch to his mate, and after explaining the wheres, and whats of their engine log, he said " The pilots forgot to log the Off Chocks time - don't tell them ! " Happy Days.
As trainee Nav. on the Stratocrsuiser, we often carried two F/Eng's, and they were all looking sideways at their jobs, having seen the Radio Op. go, and with the likes of me, the Nav's were next, so how long did F/Eng's have ? Actually longer than anticipated at that time, but it didn't seem so then, so there was little love lost between the F/Eng's and the pilots, whom the F/Eng's reckoned were out for their jobs. I once overheard the senior F/Eng. handing over the watch to his mate, and after explaining the wheres, and whats of their engine log, he said " The pilots forgot to log the Off Chocks time - don't tell them ! " Happy Days.