Validating to EASA post BREXIT

[likair]

A question for those who have not SOLI their licence from UK to any Member State prior Brexit;

Is there anyone out there who has started converting/validating their licence to EASA?
What is the process your going through?

[B-767 fan]

im very intrested to hear an answer to this, i have a friend who asked me a similar question before

[clarkeysntfc]

I believe it's 14 ATPL's and flight training.

[rudestuff]

So let me get this straight:

A Frenchman could do all his flight training in France, complete his DGAC ATPL exams in France at a DGAC test centre in, let's say, July 2020 (so they'd be valid until July 2023). He could spend autumn 2020 doing a CPL and MEIR at a French school (examined by French examiners obviously).

But simply because he elected to have his licence issued by the UK CAA - the DGAC will now not recognise their own (still valid) exams, or Skills test certificates?

If I were that Frenchman, I would be challenging that in court.

[FlyingStone]

You'd have to be borderline insane to have UK CAA licence issued in 2020, if you had any intention of flying outside of UK & non G-reg aircraft.

[ATIS31]

rudestuff

Yip Absolutley crazy the exams are all the same ! Only thing is thats how the local aviation authorities make their money from people paying for exams ! Theres no way I would sit both to fulfil an UK and EASA license Just absolute rip off and should be challenged

[Banana Joe]

I think that some authorities are accepting the ATPL exams if they were taken under their authority. I heard Austrocontrol accepts them.

[flybyschool]

I might be wrong but I believe the scenario you are portraying is not accurate.

in that case, the French student could get his license without any issue from the French DGAC.
The only thing he would need is an EASA Class 1 from France (or from any EASA member state but then to apply for his license in that country). Licencies will be issued by the country where you had your medical.

I believe a better analogy would be if a student goes to the US an completes all his training there and then goes to the French (or UK) CAA to obtain their licence...

Going back to your example, what happens is that the Uk CAA is the one that decided to move out from EASA and therefore cannot issue an EASA licence anymore. If the French student applies for it from France, he can then go to the UK CAA and convert it. I believe the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses for up to 2 years from Brexit.

A similar case happens now with some gulf countries that replicated EASA regulation and study requirements but are not EASA member states... so to convert a licence from those countries requires the same as if it were done in the US (or any other ICAO licence)

It is just one example of the implications from Brexit. A lose-lose gane for everyone in the European aviation industry, I am afraid
don’t see much to challenge in court... but that is only my humble opinion

[rudestuff]

Going back to your example, what happens is that the Uk CAA is the one that decided to move out from EASA and therefore cannot issue an EASA licence anymore. If the French student applies for it from France, he can then go to the UK CAA and convert it. I believe the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses for up to 2 years from Brexit.

Key word should be anymore. It's fair enough that CAA licences issued before 2021 can't be considered EASA licences, but those issued before should be. They were done to EASA standards. When JAR started, all existing national licences were grandfathered in and became JAR and subsequently EASA licences.

What's perverse is that there are EASA licence holders out there who have never done a single EASA exam yet were handed an EASA licence, and others who have passed all EASA exams who are having their EASA 'credentials' taken away...

[portsharbourflyer]

Flybyschool,

Everyone keep misquoting the two year rule. It only applies to EASA licenses issued before 31/12/2020, not to new issue EASA licenes.

The UK CAA would issue a validation that would be valid for up to two years on the G Reg for those that held non UK EASA licences on and before the 31/12/2020.

Alot of ATOs have given poor guidance to students by not understanding this clause.

EASA licences issued after the 01/01/2021 are not recognised by the UK CAA and have to do the exams and flight tests again. The UK CAA will recognise EASA Exams completed before the transistion date for UK FCL issue, so those with EASA exams completed before 31/12/2020 be able to credit them for UK FCL issue.

[VFR-Seek and Destroy]

rude-stuff

Can't believe the exact nationality, however something similar has happened, the pilot, a citizen from an EASA MS, completed all his training in his home country, from ppl, hours, atpl exams, Cpl / IR, and as his medical was issued by his home NAA, his home NAA issued his licence.
He secured a job based in the UK flying for a UK airline pre-brexit, a condition attached to the employment, was that his licence would need to be transferred to the UK and he did a SOLI transfer of his medical records / licence to the UK CAA.
He was recently made redundant, and although he had the right to remain / work in the UK, has decided to return to his own country, however to work in his own country he needs a licence issued by EASA with no easy route to transfer !

[Field Required]

It’s absolutely ridiculous and surely ICAO should intervene if possible. You simply cant have a situation whereby someone has satisfied all criteria as set out by EASA to have that taken away only because the NAA left EASA. Grandfather rights have to apply at the very least!

[pug]

Not sure that’s a fair conclusion. The CAA were dragging their feet regarding announcing what they would accept post Brexit, pretty much up to the wire! It’s fairly well accepted that the CAA didn’t want to leave EASA. Quite why we’re dragging ourselves out is anyone’s guess, purely politics I suppose.

I do hope common sense prevails, as you say. Hopefully an arrangement can be made to rejoin EASA (or at the very least get a BASA in place), regardless of our standing with the EU.

[Denti]

Rejoining EASA would require accepting the ECJ as the final arbiter for anything in the aviation sector. That seems impossible for UK internal political reasons. There is no ill will towards the UK, the license acceptance issue is just a logical result of the rules in place, mostly lead developed by the UK when it was a member state. But unlike the UK, the EU actually has written constitutional treaties and law derived from those and of course has to follow them. Common sense can only be applied at the political level where rules are formulated and put into place, everything below that is purely rule based.

[pug]

Rejoining EASA would require accepting the ECJ as the final arbiter for anything in the aviation sector.

Exactly and it’s the pursuit of Brexit at all costs which has led us to here.

I do believe that once the dust has settled there will be a move towards closer integration with the EU, on the back of mounting pressure from industry I suspect. So in the very least there will hopefully be a safety agreement in place which would cross-recognise U.K.-EASA licences.

[likair]

The big question is, 'When all this will happen?':rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Goodness knows, I'm detecting no willingness to do this whatsoever.

I've SOLId my UK EASA licence to Ireland, which hasn't been smooth, but has happened. We all know everybody's working to the same (inflated, and in many cases far beyond ICAO minimum) standards, we know that you can't work outside of your own territory without the necessary work permits anyhow - so there is absolutely no value in making it difficult for people to cross-credit licences. It is just authorities both sides of the Channel / Irish Sea being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

[pug]

Who knows. I’m sticking to U.K. as it’s the only place I have the right to live and work. If I had an Irish passport I may be swayed otherwise.

Seems Ryanair are only taking EASA licence holders, but apart from those clearly large employers in better times, I don’t really see the benefit of holding an EASA licence in the U.K. unless it’s demanded by a current employer.

Jobs are likely to be scarce for some time, but there will be jobs in GA. If you wish to fly a G-reg aircraft and haven’t been awarded a CPL MEIR before December 2020, then it would only make sense to get a U.K. licence. But that is based on the limited information at hand, any future recognition (or lack of) is purely based on supposition.

[likair]

Genghis the Engineer

So basically, for you, who seem to be a British citizen, it was totally useless to SOLI your licence to a MS Authority, in your case IAA. You can't work in the EU Member states unless with necessary work permits.
Moreover, EU citizens owning only a UK issued Part-FCL (pre BREXIT) is also useless. Cannot fly EU MS aircraft with a UK issued licence.

It seems like validation is the only process to go through for those needing to fly MS aircrafts.
Shall an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, wait for the 'dust to settle' and hope that a bi lateral agreement is struck between the two parties to cross recognise UK-EASA license. ( while missing the opportunity for a job offer?
Or
Should an EU citizen with a UK issued Part-FCL license, take the plunge and validate (sitting for the 14 ATPL exams + skill tests again = 1 year) the license while working?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Not useless.

I have a US B1/B2 visa, and an FAA CPL/IR. So I can, for certain purposes fly professionally in the USA, or I can fly an N-reg aeroplane professionally in the UK. There aren't actually many people with the combination of professional licences, and a PhD in flight mechanic - so that means I can be useful in certain narrow niches, and I like being useful. [I think that the UK has four people with both a CPL and an aerospace engineering PhD - we all pursue the paths that work for us.]

I've had visas and permits permitting me to work in a whole bunch of countries in my life, and as I do scientific and test flying, there may well be reasons that I am the best person to do that flying. So I've elected to grab an EASA CPL whilst I could easily - enabling possible future tasks, but being fully aware that I may need additional permits. That's my choice, it doesn't stop the UK being both my country of residence and, once things have settled out a bit, my main country for pilot licencing.

Things are perhaps rather different for an airline pilot or flying instructor, that's a rather more common skillset, so getting the work permits may be harder.

My fundamental point however is universal. Given that you need a suitable visa or work permit anyhow - why introduce additional barriers? There is no sense in it.

[Booglebox]

Some experienced and knowledgeable people told me I was barmy to move my UK CPL to Austria in 2018, as surely the UK would not leave EASA and even if it did surely EASA would recognize UK stuff....
I have both UK and EU citizenship so I was keen to avoid a "worst case" scenario where I would be limited to only having a UK license, which would be useless in Europe.
Some of those same people changed their mind at the last minute and asked me for advice late last year about which EASA state to move their license to...
I'm glad I did move it. With the UK allowing EASA licenses to be used to fly UK aircraft, and issuing UK licenses again in April, there is no downside (except for the cost and time element, which wasn't too bad). I can even get a UK, EASA, and FAA medical in one go with the same guy.

[flybyschool]

portsharbourflyer

That is my understanding... my previous explanation was poor... but I was more thinking on the actual question that started this thread.
We do not receive many questions from students in that situation anymore so it was more a rhetorical question.

I believe there is no question about the implications of holding a UK licence and wanting to obtain an EASA licence, even if it was obtained when the UK was still part of EASA... and would provably have the EASA stamp on it. My understanding (and I might be wrong...) is that it will be considered as any other ICAO licence. I would also agree that it is extremely odd that a licence obtained passing the EASA ATPL exams are now required to retake those exams... but that is what I believe needs to be done. I am reading comments about changes in this matter but have not received confirmation from our CAA (or EASA) so cannot comment on that

Brexit in aviation is bringing more difficulties to both the UK and EASA... I don't think we all needed this specially when we have Covid to deal with

[likair]

We do not receive many questions from students in that situation anymore so it was more a rhetorical question.

It is a genuine question, indeed.
By not receiving questions from students regarding this subject matter doesn't mean this thread was started in a rhetorical sense. :}

I believe there is a large number of individuals who have not SOLI their licence prior BREXIT (for whatever reason), both EU and British nationals, and found themselves in this situation. Hence, it is interesting how this situation is being dealt with on a personal level.