Question Licencing

[RaymondM]

Hi all,

Just got a quick question re licencing.

When an airliner asks candidates to have: "Full EASA ATPL licence (UK issued)".

What exactly does that mean? Is that an EASA licence or a UK CAA licence?

Only reason I ask, is because I am trying to see how many UK based airliners are recruiting with EASA or UK CAA licences. I start my ATPL's in June and I haven't decided which ATPL licence to go for (I only have the right to live and work in UK). Any advice on this matter would also be appreciated. Thanks!!

[rudestuff]

They wouldn't ask that as there are no UK issued EASA licences anymore. Those that were issued are no longer EASA and are now considered UK CAA licences.

As for "Full ATPL" - that means an (actual) ATPL, not a CPL which is what you'll leave flight school with, and secure your first job with. You won't be able to get an ATPL until AFTER you've got your first airline FO job (you need to get a multi crew type rating and build the necessary flight time before you can take the ATPL skill test.)

As the UK are the good guys, they will recognise EASA licences for a while, so you could work for a UK airline with either. Hopefully common sense will prevail and there will be a conversion available at some point. In the mean time, if you intend to train and work in the UK then a CAA licence would be the logical choice.

[Hogos]

As already stated, a Uk issued licence is no longer an EASA licence.
Definitely I would suggest to go for an EASA licence, and theereafter you can apply for a UK one, if the operator requires it.
To have a "non-EASA" licence is very limiting job-wise, in particular now.

[RaymondM]

I am leaning towards that right now but, UK CAA have not said they will recognise an EASA if it was issued before 31/12/2020. I think a lot of students (like myself) are petitioning UKCAA to change their minds on that but I highly doubt anything will change. Worst case scenario is invest tons of money for an EASA licence and then learn that I cant use or convert it. Time will tell.

[Hogos]

It depends on the opportunities, if you are looking to work in UK, then a Uk licence is ok.
Expanding the context to EU, definitely EASA is better.
Considering the current situation, at the end of the pandemic, you might even look abroad for a job, you'll never know.

[FlyingStone]

It would be extremely bad optics if UK CAA restricted ability to work for UK citizens, who would decide to come back home after 1st January 2022, and have previously held UK professional licence, that has been converted to EASA in the meantime.

[ford cortina]

Are there any UK Airlines that require EASA Licence holders to hold a UK Issused Licence?
I know Ryanair require you to hold a IAA Issued Licence, not heard of it in the UK though.

[FlyingStone]

If only there was an easy way to avoid all of this conundrum, such as staying a part of EASA in the first place...

[ford cortina]

It is a mess, no dobut.
For those of us who managed to do a SOLI before brexit will be able to obtain a UK Licence after April, I am intugued who that will pan out.
We will see what happens once the dust settles.

[RaymondM]

FlyingGreek

Hypothetically, you’re a 25 year old aspiring pilot who is about to start their ATPL exams in a few months. You’re British and only have the right to work and live in the UK. You do not mind working anywhere in the UK or Europe.

Based on everything you know now, would you go for an EASA or a UKCAA licence?

[ford cortina]

Right now, .....well according to yesterdays Sunday Times, there are approx 10,000 pilots out of work accross Europe, I would hunkerdown and wait a year or two see how things pan out. I would have thought starting ATPL's now is not a good idea.

[Weathergirly]

Get an EASA Licence. A UK licence is of little value unless you can get a job with BA etc. Ryanair require an EASA licence and they are by far the biggest operator in the UK. Your no good to easyJet with just a UK licence as half their fleet is European registered. The present situation will not change, cooperation between EASA and the UK is just hopeful thinking by a select few.
Too many European operators based in the UK for me.
Checkout flight international for jobs, you need either a EASA or FAA licence for most.

[ford cortina]

There has never been a level playing field. As you have said, most european carriers require crew to be fluent in their countries language, I cannot see that changing.

You only need to look at the fun and games with the Astrazenneca Vaccine to see how Europe feel about the UK, the lack of take up is insane.

As to pilots, well there are plenty of them in their own countries. EASA has already said the UK issused Licences are 3rd Country, that wont change.

Balpa are very good at making noise, not seen much change though.

UK Cargo companies, some are already moving their aricraft to the European Registry, removing the need for UK Crew.

Sadly this is just the start. It is a massive mess, as I said in an eailer post, there are 10,000 pilots unemployed over Europe, it will be a while before any cadets are hired, I would hang on a year or two to let the dust settle

[futurepilot22]

Continuing this thread, I have a similar problem. I am starting my ATPL training in January (waiting 2 years to 'let the dust settle' is out of the question for me). I am a UK citizen and only have the right to live and work in the UK. Should I go for EASA or UK CAA? Assuming there is no agreement made and things stay as is for the forseeable, EASA would offer a wider choice of airlines but there is always the risk I won't be able to get a job or work permit in an EU country. My dream is to live and work in Europe so staying in the UK isn't exactly something I want to do forever. What UK based EU airlines are there that I could work for as back-up if I can't get into the EU? All I can see is Ryanair, assuming Ryanair UK doesn't take over all UK based aircraft.

[rudestuff]

Do both. Study once but take the exams twice.

[Contact Approach]

without an EU passport you'll find it almost impossible to get a job with an EU airline.

[futurepilot22]

rudestuff

apart from having the option of uk or eu airlines for getting my 1st job, is that all that having both licenses has to offer? Say I got a job with BA but wanted to eventually move to EU with an EU airline if the opportunity arose. Wouldn't I need to keep renewing my EASA license to keep it current whilst flying for BA?
Thanks for your advice.

[Banana Joe]

Yes, you would. But it's a total waste if you don't have a EU passport.
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[rudestuff]

The licence is valid for life, the ratings need to be kept current to use them. Let's say you go to a school that trains CAA and EASA simultaneously and you get both CPL/IR licences: your first job is likely going to be in the UK. Your licences will start to diverge because you'll only have a CAA type rating. You'll be doing an LPC every year and getting a fresh IR, so you have no worries with the CAA ATPLs, and once you have the requirements and your next LPC rolls around, you'll ask the examiner to do an LST instead, which will give you a full CAA ATPL.
The problem is, as far as your EASA licence is concerned you're still a CPL. Probably with an expired IR. That shouldn't be a problem, because the ATPL exams are valid for 7 years from your last IR - so worst case scenario you can do an IR test once every 7 years to keep them valid. If you ever get a job with an EU airline then they'll give you a type rating which will culminate with an LST and you'll have an EASA ATPL. Alternatively, if you have 500 hours on that type you can skip the course and go straight to the LST.

Thinking about it, *theoretically* if you ONLY got an EASA SEIR the ATPLs exams would technically remain valid for an ATPL for a rolling 7 years. After 36 months you wouldn't be able to use them for an EASA CPL, but you could still use them to convert a foreign ATPL...

[Contact Approach]

The whole thing is a total farce. I'd honestly do something else if I were you.

[futurepilot22]

rudestuff

Ah cool, thanks for the detailed reply. That sounds promising. So what if I trained solely for an EASA license but then converted to a CAA license down the line, would my EASA one would remain for life? Like can I hold both simultaneously even with a conversion do you know?

[Contact Approach]

It’s absolutely the worst time to train. There’s no clarity on licensing or what may happen. Save your money and sanity for gods sake.
There are absolutely no jobs and there won’t be for low hours for at least 5-10 years.

[futurepilot22]

Contact Approach

I am aware the situation is uncertain and far from ideal but this is the only career I see myself doing. I am desperate to begin. Waiting 2-3 years is not going to get me any closer to my goal. I am willing to suffer the potential hardships of finding a job in 2 years time but would just like advice on what would can give the best opportunities in what is not an ideal scenario.
I appreciate your concern and advice, but for me waiting is not an option.

[rudestuff]

rudestuff

Ah cool, thanks for the detailed reply. That sounds promising. So what if I trained solely for an EASA license but then converted to a CAA license down the line, would my EASA one would remain for life? Like can I hold both simultaneously even with a conversion do you know?
The best time to train is probably when people are saying things like "this is absolutely the worst time to train"
It's not an instant thing, it might take 12-24 months to get licensed so timing is basically luck anyway. The best option is obviously to get your licence at the start of a hiring boom, and believe it or not you can plan that. Quite simply, you get your PPL, ATPL exams, SEIR and SE CPL, then stop. Sit on your hands and wait, maybe get an FI to stay current - but you don't need to keep anything current of you don't want to. Then when the job market is right, you go back to school and get your MEP, MEIR and MCC (which should take 6 weeks). Now you can apply for jobs with a brand new MEIR/MCC (the only things that actually matter) - "fresh" out of training.

To convert between EASA and CAA is a bit fluid at the moment. No doubt there will be an agreement reached at some point, but for now my advice (if you are starting now and want to be sure if getting both licences) would be to take both sets of exams at the same time.
Licences are valid for life, and you can hold as many as you like, but only one EASA at a time. (Since the CAA is now out of EASA, you can hold CAA and EASA at the same time). It's the ratings on those licences that have to be kept valid (if you want to fly). For example, right now I'm allowed to fly a 757 but not a Cessna 152, because my SEP has expired. If I decide i want to fly one, I would have to do renewal training to get the rating back.

Right now, the choice between CAA and EASA is very very simple: get the appropriate licence for where you are allowed to live and work.

If you think you'll need the both licences at some point in the future, study once and take both sets of exams whilst they are still virtually identical. Trust me, you'll forget 80% of it anyway, any the last thing you want to do is study twice.