Club Check Flights - Need or Greed?

[sunnysideup]

One of the groans I hear a lot in the bar is PPL's having to do check flights with an instructor too frequently under their Clubs rules.

How often does your club insist on a check flight? Do they insist on a check for each type you fly? Do you think its necessary, or just a nice little earner for the club?

Mine insists on a type specific check every 90 days (30 days for aerobatics). Too much or too little?

Any other thoughts???

[Brizzo]

I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with insurance. Underwriters would want to know that those allowed to fly expensive kit were current and up to the task.

[Chilli Monster]

The club I flew with before getting a share only insisted on a check flight if you weren't current. Currency rules were 31 days flying currency and 62 days type currency.

CM

[FlyingCesspit]

My club's rules are similar to the Monster's - you're classed as current on a specific type of you've flown in the past month, and this also covers you for similar but simpler aircraft for up to 3 months. So if you're current on a 172, you are also current on a 152 as long as you've flown a 152 in the past 3 months.

If you lose currency you need a check ride - but that might be only a couple of circuits.

And you need a conversion course (typically 4-5 hours) if you want to fly a new type (e.g. upgrading from 152 or 172 or going from 172 to PA28).

I have to say I agree with these requirements. I can feel that I'm losing my edge if I haven't flown for a couple of weeks. And there are enough differences between types to justify a few hours of training & practice.

[Wycombe]

Cesspit...that all sounds very familiar, not a WAC member are you by any chance?

My last check (after going out of 30 day currency by about 5 days) was a couple of circuits (with flapless approaches, just to keep me on my toes). When I converted from PA28 to C172 (R and S) earlier this year, it took a total of 3 trips (approx 4.5 total), which might sound a lot to some, but was after a 6 month lay-off and was pretty thorough (which I have no complaints about at all).

At EGTB, we are lucky that the LFA is 5 minutes flying from the field, and that we have a CFI who is thorough, but will also make sure you get as much done in a 1hr slot as possible.

[Whirlybird]

It's usually an insurance requirement. Having said that it's quite a good idea. Use it to do something new - when I do a club check in a helicopter I ask to do auto-rotations to the ground, which I never practise alone (not allowed to, and too much risk of trashing the helicopter). So why not ask the instructor to give you an EFATO, or something like that.

[no sponsor]

In my experience this is as much to do with safety as with anything else. Certain aircraft types require a check of every 28 days at my club, such as those with CSU and retractable. Simple types tend to go over to 90 days. I don't know why, since after flying a fuel injected engine I always have difficulty remembering the carb heat, especially after a considerable absence of simple aeroplane experience.

One club I used to be a member of was very flexible. Their 28 days rule would be relaxed a little, if, say you were at 40 days, and the question as to whether you should do a check ride was left up to yourself. If you feel confident enough, then you didn't. This is down to the honesty and integrity of the pilot (of which I'm sure we all are very good at!).

[camaro]

My club:

Less than 50hrs P1 = 21 days
More than 50hrs P1 = 28 days

This is for club aircraft and is an insurance requirement. Not having my own aircraft, I don't know what the currency requirements are for owners/groups.

[foxmoth]

Sunnyside,
Are you sure you mean a type specific check every 90/30 days or just currency? Currency is reasonable, but a check flight (ie with an instructor) seems a bit over the top if you are current- of course if you do not meet these currency requirements then a check ride would be sensible unless you are pretty experienced.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

At one of my old clubs it was 28 days and you need a checkride unless you have 100hrs TT and then it was discretionary. New types were at the disrection of the instructor - usually 2 trips of about 90 mins each.

This worked well in my opion.

A 28 day check was in my book 3 circuits. 1st normal "pretend I am not here", 2nd was a planned flapless probably with an unplanned EFATO, 3rd I'd try to teach something new. All done inside 25mins.

These requirements are usually an insurance requirement though I have never seen anything in black and white.

If you had held a license for several years and had something like 200hrs+ then their was no recency requirement whatsoever.

I hated paying for currency checkrides when I was but a low time PPL. In retrospect they were a good idea.

WWW

[Julian]

My club is 90 days between flights and conversion is as many hours as the instructor thinks until he is happy you wont kill yourself but includes 3 t/o & landings, generally 2-3 hours - 5 hours to upgrade from a 152 to a 172 or even a PA28 seems a bit excessive to me.

I did here of one club which required a checkout for each runway you wanted to use and differing weather types on each runway, needless to say the guy I was talking to didnt stay there very long!

[Flash0710]

I used to work for Cabair............................



GREED

If pilots were taught properly and were switched on it should be a descresionary thing....

[GroundBound]

I dont' do any regular check rides!

I expected to, but no-one in the (so called) club has given any indication that they are neded. Didn't find anything about it in the insurance either.

They seem to take the attitude that if you have a licence, and you have been checked out by one of the instructors, then you can fly their aeroplanes whenever you want. But then they're not in the UK, are they!

I did need a short conversion to a different type (3 hours) and got that signed off. Haven't flown the previous type for months now, but there doesn't seem to be a need to be checked on it again. Does seem a bit lax! :confused:

[sunnysideup]

I have never heard of any insurance company insisting on check rides and I've insured about eight aircraft for club use over the last couple of years.

Its a good excuse to give the "I've got a PPL so why should I pay money again for instructor time" brigade. IMHO, they should spend it on the instructor or good life insurance, one of the two.

Foxmoth - currency rules mentioned before are at the descretion of the CFI or Duty Instructor. Its not written in stone. SOme need it, some don't, hours on type are just one factor.

[essouira]

I agree with WWW on this one. When I was a very inexperienced PPL I too resented the checks. Now I wish I'd taken more advantage of the time I spent during those checks to learn from the instructors I was flying with. When I passed my GFT, my instructor trotted out the old cliche "now you have a licence to learn" - but he was right and don't I know it now. I regularly check out PPL holders and the best pilots are not usually the ones who are unhappy about doing check flights. We often take the opportunity to practise emergency procedures etc which they may not often do when flying their family off for lunch or whatever. On the other hand - in the past month, I have flown with two PPL holders who I could not have signed off during the first hour I flew with them. They did things which put them (and would have put their passengers) into danger. One was caused by rustiness and tiredness and was very happy to arrange to fly a couple more dual circuits before his next hire. The other was really p****d off about doing a check flight and flew really badly - he kept saying "I would have done ........ if I'd been on my own" and "I usually do ........". As sunnysideup says - he could spend his money on good life insurance instead !
BUT - That's two out of about twenty who flew safely and I signed off in as little flight time as possible. Unfortunately I don't know which two they're going to be until I fly the check ..........................

[FormationFlyer]

OK the club I instruct @...is


Student - must have flown with instructor in last 14 days before any solo flights.

PPLs: 1 Annual club check similar to biennial flight - indeed we try to double up so this is >1:00 and conforms to the CAA recommendation for content - thus saving peeps money so therefore they only have 1 extra check flight every two years.

The only time you need a check flight is if you run out of currency. so...

42 day check - not flown for 42 days - club check with instructor. Actual content down to the instructor.

90 day check - if not flow for 90 days then club check - content as per CAA dual training flight.

If you stay in currency @ our club the total number of checks you are forced to take every two years *beyond licence requirements* is 1. Not exactly onerous.

Most PPLs I fly club checks with certainly could do with practicing manoeuvres more often...lets say PFLs are generally a 50% hit rate...even 60deg AoB turns cause about 80-90% problems with significant height loss.

My view is out-of-currency checks are fine. If you are current then mandatory checks are greedy.
------

OK...now from an instructor point of view I can appreciate that the club is forcing you to take an out-of-currrency check and thus you spend time flying with me - instead of with your friends...(oh well - never mind eh!?) :) now I can understand your feelings about this - but generally I have found only 1 or 2 people out of the many many i have checked that didnt need some practice at stalls, inicipient spin, PFL, EFATO...

However, I *always* try to ensure that folks who fly with me get to take away at least one new experience, or piece of information. I have a number of things (not necessarily up my sleeve ;) ) which I can show you, or tricks to make life easier when that emergency & panic set in. I also have one or two things to show you that some 'so-called' emergencies are not so horrid - and that losing your ASI say is not so dangerous as you might think. This particular one has been a real eye opener for some people. I have also covered control systems failures and hopefully opened up the minds of one or two individuals to possible courses of action that they might not have thought of.

So in short - my aim is not only to make sure you are safe to fly club a/c - but also to give you something - and I sincerely hope you have enjoyed the experience if you ever fly with me...I normally enjoy even these checks immensely.

I can appreciate that not all instructors have this attitude and many would rather fleece you for the airtime without giving something back whilst chasing hours....AFAIC those sorts of instructors (hours chasers) should be removed from the system because they are instructing for the wrong reasons and inevitably the instruction will be of a lower standard.

Just my take...

[essouira]

this is getting worrying - that's twice today I've agreed with FF !

[FormationFlyer]

Steady old chap! :D

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Agree with WWW. Low time is a very good idea. I have learnt a great deal from some of the people I have been checked out by.

I have not been able to back up the for insurance thing. Sounds like an urban legend.

I fly rotary so I have to take an LPC every 12 months in each type I am rated to fly anyway. I use that opportunity to gain from the examiner after we have done the necessary checks. i.e autos in the R22 always need more practice. Different approaches to confined areas and so on.

I fly at least every 2 weeks usually for quite a few hours over the weekend and if I have nothing particular planned I will ask an instructor to come with me and take advantage of that time.

Although on the other hand one place I used to fly at insisted on a currency check when I had only flown the day before but in another aircraft not belonging to them. Seemed obvious to me the instructor was having a slow time and wanted to make some money. Told him to shove it and never flew there again after that.