View Full Version : P1/P2 as student
Hi all,
I'm halfway through my PPL training and have a question regarding time logged. If I fly with a friend (not an instructor) how do I log the time: P1 for time at the controls and P2 for the remainer? And does this count (and how) towards the PPL 45 hours minimum? (In case this makes a difference I have about 2 hours solo).
Another question I had is whether I can train in other european countries and if I get it right from another thread I can do up to 10 hours. Let me know if I got it wrong.
Thanks.
Mak
foghorn
19th Aug 2002, 10:17
If I fly with a friend (not an instructor) how do I log the time
You cannot log the time at all. As you do not have a licence you do not have any privileges to act as commander of an aircraft (and therefore log P1) unless specifically approved to do so by an instructor as a part of a course of training. When an instructor does this, he/she takes responsibility for your actions during your solo sortie. The instructor must have had his/her solo restriction removed to do this.
P1 for time at the controls and P2 for the remainer?
According to the JARs, the type you are flying only requires one pilot (assumption, since you're doing your PPL) , therefore by definition you cannot log P2 (second pilot time) on this type at any time, notwithstanding the discussion ongoing on another thread regarding safety pilots.
And does this count (and how) towards the PPL 45 hours minimum? (In case this makes a difference I have about 2 hours solo).
Since you can't log it, it doesn't count.
cheers!
foggy.
FlyingForFun
19th Aug 2002, 10:31
Agree with everything foggy says.
It's also worth pointing out what happens after you get your PPL. If you're flying an aircraft which only requires one pilot, only one person can log P1. If there are two qualified pilots on board, you must decide which of you is going to log P1. Usually, this will be the owner of the aircraft, or the person who has hired the aircraft from the club. The other person can not log any of this time, even if he as at the controls. And the person who is logging P1 is always responsible for the aircraft, even if not at the controls.
On one occassion, I went flying with AerBabe. She rented the aircraft from her club, so she was P1, even though I have more hours than she does, and even though I was at the controls for a portion of the flight. During that flight, while I was at the controls, the alternator warning light came on. She used her decision-making powers as commander of the aircraft to ask me for advice. (She was still commander, even though I was at the controls.) I suggested cycling the alternator switch, which she did, and it cured the problem. She made the decision, as commander of the aircraft, to return to the airfield as soon as possible. Despite the fact that I had the controls of the aircraft, had more hours than her, and it was my suggestion which cured the in-flight problem, I don't get to log any of that time. But of course, I have offered her a flight in my aircraft in return, and I get to log all of that time even though she was at the controls for much of the flight, so it all evens out in the end!
Good luck with your training!
FFF
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TheKentishFledgling
19th Aug 2002, 14:12
I was told recently by a commercial pilot (ATPL/IR) that anyone (even with no licence) can log time as "OBS" (that goes in the operator's capacity) and then put the time of the flight in the "any other flying" column.
tKF
FlyingForFun
19th Aug 2002, 14:41
tKF,
You can, of course, write anything you like in your log book. It is, after all, your log book. So if you want to include a particular flight, regardless of what license you have, you can do so. I wasn't aware of any specific way of writing up a flight which you don't have a license for. If you've heard from a reliable source that this is the way to do it then fair enough, but I don't think there would be a problem with writing the flight in your log book any way at all, subject to what I'm about to say.
What you can't do, though, is count that time towards anything. You can't count it towards the 45 hours for a PPL, nor the minimum hours for CPL training or ATPL issue, you can't include it in your total time when you're getting a quote from an insurance company, etc, etc, etc.
So, if you want to record the flight, write whatever you want in the operators capacity column, so long as it couldn't be confused with any loggable time (i.e. don't write P1, P2, PUS, PUT, or anything else similar). And write the hours anywhere you like, so long as there's no danger of them being included in any of your totals - I would suggest that you're asking for trouble if you include the time in the "P2 or Training" column, even if you exclude it from the total. The "Other" column really is the most logical place, unless you've already used that for something else (I've used my "Other" column to keep track of my tailwheel time, because my insurance company needs to know that).
I know of people who have two log books, one for loggable time, and another for passenger flying. If you really want to keep track of all your passenger flying, this is probably the best way to go. But I get the impression, from his post, that Mak wasn't asking about how to keep a record of his passenger flying, but if he can actually count it towards anything, and the answer is No.
FFF
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foghorn
19th Aug 2002, 14:44
My turn to agree with everything you say here, FFF!
Best of luck with the PPL, Mak.
TheKentishFledgling
19th Aug 2002, 15:35
FFF - I wish it did count towards a licence ;) I'm 15 and over the last 18 months have logged 41hrs 10mins passenger time in 20+ types....very nearly a PPL! ;) ;)
The OBS stuff is purely for my interest and the logging of time in the "anf" column just makes it easy to see how much pax time I have logged!
tKF:D
dublinpilot
19th Aug 2002, 19:25
Is it legal to let someone else handle the controls if you don't have an instructors rating?
andrewc
19th Aug 2002, 20:32
Dublinpilot, assuming that you mean a passenger without
a valid, current license.
Yes, but you are still the pilot of the aircraft, totally
responsible for anything that happens as a result.
So where you might well let a sensible, trusted passenger
try out some gentle turns back and forth at a good height,
well away from traffic and airspace. It would be a fool
hardy pilot who let a passenger attempt a landing.
It would certainly make an interesting insurance claim!
-- Andrew
Thanks for the replies guys.
30 hours done, 15 to go... and the weather is getting worse all the time :(
AerBabe
2nd Sep 2002, 15:43
What do you mean getting worse? I had a fantastic day's flying yesterday, and the beginning of this week looks much the same. ;) :p
charlie-india-mike
2nd Sep 2002, 16:32
I agree with Aerbabe, had a great days flying yesterday and am looking forward to another great day on Wednesday.
:) :) :) :)
AerBabe
2nd Sep 2002, 16:38
Yip, Weds looks like it will still be good... hope so, cos I've got a competition to fly asap :D
Mak, you'll find that winter is a very good time to fly. The air is much smoother, and often vis is greater as there's less haze. I did my GFT last winter, and I couldn't have asked for better weather! Oh... and the cockpit doesn't provide you with a sauna as you fly ;)
I had a great day... :D :D