Breach of FTL?

[smoke me 2 kippers]

New proceedure in our company is for all CS to log on to a computer in the crew room and view all notices before report time. There are not enough computer terminals and it now takes about 10-25 minutes to get your own stuff done. It has been announced that failure to have done this BEFORE report time is an offence and will be punishable by a disciplinary if it happens twice. Basically, we now HAVE to be in the crew room 25 minutes before every official report time.

Question. Is this legal, or is it a breach of FTL?
:confused:

[BlueEagle]

As you are in the UK suggest you shove this one straight up to CHIRP.

From what you say the company are asking you to do the impossible - but why? Doesn't normally take that long to sort through ones own admin stuff before getting on with the flight planning etc. Could you meet their requirements by reviewing the admin prior to check out of your previous flight?

Are you able to access the computer from your home? Sounds
odd but several companies now do this.

If it is just a blatant attempt to get you to come in early then they are, I think, in breach of the intent of flight duty times and limitations.

Check with the authorities, I suggest.

[Captain Stable]

You cannot perform any tasks at the behest of the company prior to your report time. Quite simply, because it is part of the job and therefore must be performed within duty time, or the company are required to adjust report times to include any other tasks performed at their behest.

As my esteemed colleague BE says, I'd go straight to CHIRP with this one. You could also send it direct to the company's CAA Flight Operations Inspector.

Alternatively, since the company are acting quite blatantly illegally, they would not have a leg to stand on if it was raised with them. In other words, any disciplinary action would be a serious breach of contract, as well as ordering crews to break the law.

[smoke me 2 kippers]

It seems that this IS a breach of UK FTL!! The company has previously assumed that the CS were happy to read the notices in the book (foolscap size, about 4 sections, ordered by date of issue)that only took a few seconds to see if a new one was isssued since the last flight. It now takes up to 25 minutes to log on and browse every section. It IS a disciplinary to have not read them before report time, as this delays the formal briefing. Two strikes and it is a fast taxi ride to Luton!


Light blue touch-paper and stand well back!

Anyone have a reference/scanned copy etc of the relevant FTL rules that they could post here? Our CS info is a dumbed-down version.

[Captain Stable]

smoke, it should all be in your Operations Manual. It probably won't be in the Cabin Crew Manual section, but most companies have their FTL scheme in Part A. It will detail general rules, rules specifically for Flight Deck, and then how the CC rules differ from those.

[machone]

If your manuals are in current JAR OPS format Part A, Section 7 should tell you all you want to know.

[blue up]

Luton? Yes, I think the s***/fan interfacing is already going on over that one. Amazing that it got past union, management and cabin crew before anyone realised it was/is illegal. Hmmmmmm. Wonder how far that rule would've got with the Flight Deck? Hehehehe!:D :D :D

[HugMonster]

Anything done at the behest of the company is to be included as duty time. If you require your crews to do anything, time must be allocated for it.

What you may not under any circumstances do is require them to do something outside duty hours. To threaten them with disciplinary action if they do not consent to break the law is quite astounding.

Whichever cerbrally-challenged manager instituted this illegal (and dangerous) practice does not deserve to hold a position of responsibility within an airline. He or she clearly does not understand even the basics of an FTL scheme.

This situation must be brought to the notice of the CAA via CHIRP very rapidly indeed.

[HugMonster]

Chirps Site (http://www.chirp.co.uk/)

[smoke me 2 kippers]

the chirp number was just an answerphone. Will try again after this afternoons' flight.
I've got a copy of the 'new rule' on reporting before report time. Don't know if anyone has been caught yet!

[no sig]

smoke me 2 kippers

Where has all this been published and who announded what? I read the crew notices and I didn't see anything with reference to this, maybe I missed it but I doubt it. I know Part A hasn't been amended.

Our report time is a standard 1 hour pre-flight and if someone has changed that I would know, and I can tell you for sure they haven't. Further, if someone has published something which is at odds with the Operations Manual Part A Sec 7 then the Commander of the flight need only ignore it and record the additional duty time on the Journey Log thena dvise his or her line manager.

If you believe there to be a safety implication in all this then you need only complete an Air Safety Report which goes to the Quality group for recording and will be directed to the investigating officers, you might also speak with the FSO if you wish.

The upshot of my post is, that there CAN be NO change to your standard report time without it forming part of the duty day and I know your Company does not require that of any crew member. Perhaps someone has published a memo without understanding the consequences of their action which has be mis-construed into the requirement to report early. If this is the case then it can be sorted with little more than a phone call to the Ops Manager or the Chief Pilot, why not try that?

[Smokie]

I have similar concerns over the antics of my own company aswell. They have declared that all systems are GO as from the 4th Sept. Today in fact. They have also said that this is perfectly legal and have threatend disciplinary action for those who don't comply.
On my last visit to the crew room a few days ago I was phoned by crewing to be asked why I had not acknowledged my latest roster change and why had the rest of my crew not "swiped in "yet ? This was actually 5 mins before our legal checkin time.

There are only 2 terminals in our crew room with 7 crews all arriving for early morning duties at the same time. The word CHAOS is the understatement of the century; especially as either one or both terminals usually pack up during the proceedings because someone has swiped their card the wrong way by mistake, which is quite easy to do.

My main bone of contention is that this, is to all intents and purpose's, a back door way of "CLOCKING IN". This is a change to our terms and conditions of which nobody consulted us about and is a breach of contract. But then I have lost count of how many breaches of contract there has been over the last 12 months.
Don't even get me started on the FTL side of things.:mad:

[BlueEagle]

Your post is quite disturbing.

I am assuming you are in the UK - Correct? You say, 'Beyond the Pale' which means you either come from a very remote part of Russia or, as the more modern thinkers among us would have it, from somewhere in Ireland?

If your company is a UK registered company and they are in breach of FTLs then you should contact CHIRP with full and verifiable details of these breaches and any other aspects that you feel are related to Flight Safety.

As for your own crewing department wanting to know why you have not acknowledged a roster change, or why your crew have not checked in before time you will have to sort this out at a local level.

If your company are legislating that you should be carrying out duties in your own time, i.e. before official log-on time or after official log-off time then, again, you should report this, with all verifiable facts, to CHIRP.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Smokie]

Thanks BlueEagle , the matter is now in hand, the company CCs should be dealing with some of the matters in hand very shortly.

Another "nice touch" ( not ), from the company, is that all postal rosters will stop as from the 1st Sept.

If I recall rightly there is a very short window( no pun intended) in which to retrieve rosters from the system ,if you miss it then tough! Suppose you are on leave, unscheduled nite stop, scheduled nite stop or what ever . IT only gets better doesn't it !

I shall wait with bated breath....................:(

[blue up]

Spoke to Dave Gibb at the CAA. Very nice chap, quite happy for me to remain anonymous whilst we discussed this 'hypothetical' (Ahem!) situation.

His interpretation of the rules seems to be exactly the same as this thread, namely that 'any task' that has to be done at 'the behest' of the company before a flight 'must count towards the duty period'.

This clause was designed to prevent managers etc from doing 3 hours in the office prior to a long flight. Since it will be now necessary to increase the length of the pre-flight period to cover the extra work needed, any 06:05 report time (in the old scheme) will now be something like 05:50, bringing it into another period when calculating the max Flight Duty Period (FDP)

If you get a look at the Cap371, page 2, section A, it states that every crew member is responsible for ensuring that they do not operate outside of the max FDPs as approved by the authority through the medium of the company Operations Manual. The fact that somebody in the company has introduced this rule without clearing it with the companys' Ops Inspector does not absolve the individual from blame!

BE WARNED!

If somebody here is clued-up on computers, they might be doing us all a great service by bouncing this info out to other UK (CAA) operators (via the Moderators?) Bit beyond my skill level.

Thanks.

[BlueEagle]

Thanks for that Blue Up.

[Smokie]

Likewise blue up, thanks, I shall alert our CC imediately, he is a bit of a wiz on the PC to boot (pun intended) thanks again.

[smoke me 2 kippers]

Complete lack of interest from those above us in the pile. Could come as a rude shock when the men from the ministry pay a visit to Ops!

Ever get the idea you are beating your head against a wall?