Per Hour Charges

[controlledrest]

In the 22 Dec 'The Airbus Flyer', Glen D states 'We will need to operate our aircraft as efficiently as possible as every kilogram of fuel we save, or minute we are not paying 'per hour' charges, will greatly assist our recovery...'.

Sorry Glen, I can't help. With the sign or fire POS18 now in place I am a 'per hour' cost. The longer the flight the more I will earn. My only motivation for saving fuel is the environment. We don't have a profit sharing scheme which actually shares profit with employees. It is in my very best interest to make each and every flight profitable for myself.

[Rie]

Did stories not come out of HKA with their pilots doing this? Bring a plane back to green dot and you gain several dollars for the crew on an Auckland sector. It would not be hard for the company to look and see who's pockets were lined a little extra.

[mngmt mole]

I'm sorry to say, but with such a reduced schedule, and an extreme over-staffing of crew there is very little chance of making anywhere near the minimum number of hours that would then result in extra pay. Income for this year will be the minimum for everyone (well, that is except for the management pilots who are of course on a lucrative special deal).

[bm330]

747 pilots are not parked. They have been shunted to POS18 like everyone else. On top of living through the hell of isolation/quarantine, they've just lost their overtime multiplier. CI 0, taxi at 10kts. Get used to it.

[mngmt mole]

Apologies. You are of course correct regarding the 747 pilots. The company has an interesting way of saying "thank you". :/

[controlledrest]

mngmt mole

Totally agree. My policy will apply until I retire, including the years loads are up and the profits are rolling in. I won't try for direct to, I'll follow Ops A guidance on distance to avoid CBs (most guys don't), no more slick approaches.

[MENELAUS]

And get yourself fired.

[Sqwak7700]

For following Part A? You should read up a bit.

[MENELAUS]

And you should wake up to the new reality.
Guidance on avoiding CB’s apart, and avoiding slick approaches as a given, they’re basic airmanship and therefore incontrovertible.
However good luck with the “ only following OMPA “ argument for the rest of it at a non existent D and G ( only available at company behest ) or a non existent labour tribunal.
RETI, fuel uplift, playing silly buggars with CI etc etc will all be monitored. And that doesn’t even begin to
cover it. FTL’s ?
It’s a brave new world out there, and there’s currently a surfeit of pilots.

[Bangaluru]

I am a 'per hour' cost.

Exactly. That says it all.

[Farman Biplane]

All you scared little boys and girls will comply, especially you ex-A Scalers, we know you have no spine.

[Whiteteanosugar]

Seriously, no one is happy about the permanent changes. But to deliberately be inefficient, and fly with the OP’s attitude, just reflects badly back to your own reputation as an individual. Yes, we should deviate more for weather, maybe this way the 350s would get less lightning strikes damages. Why not RETI if you do want to taxi slow and “safe” after landing? But the core problem is the attitude. Setting a good example of airmanship and good CRM to the next generation is part of what makes you a good pilot, on top of stick and rudder skills.

All this talk about CX going down the drain and incidents and accidents occurring in the future; well guess what, the current pilots here have a responsibility to make sure it doesn’t. Even if you plan to leave as soon as the market back home recovers, you would find doing your job well and passing on knowledge and good mindset to the next generation will make you a better person as a whole. And when you do leave, you wouldn’t leave with the reputation of being a bitter ********

[Bangaluru]

All this talk about CX going down the drain and incidents and accidents occurring in the future; well guess what, the current pilots here have a responsibility to make sure it doesn’t.

Nope. They have a responsibility to make sure it ain't them.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Truth is we can't really sabotage the COS18 system. Adding 2 minutes to the block hours is hard work, puts you at risk and will make FA difference.

[LLLQNH]

Could always try to get everything down really early and be efficient and depart 5 minutes early and arrive on time! Might be a win win for all, pax happy as OTP, management happy as OTP and we happy as an extra 5 mins in Credit each flight!

[Krone]

mngmt mole

Totally agree. My policy will apply until I retire, including the years loads are up and the profits are rolling in. I won't try for direct to, I'll follow Ops A guidance on distance to avoid CBs (most guys don't), no more slick approaches.

Crest, pure pprune bluster , like many, but we know that you’ve already rolled over and signed cos18. And you will continue to acquiesce to the wishes of your employer. As you already have done since you caved in over the 49ers. Yes im presuming you took your command, and paid lip service to those who lost theirs at that time?
Dont be embarrassed, all the current cx pilots are all in the same position, and sold their souls to cos 18 in October.

[CXChildLabour]

However good luck with the “ only following OMPA “ argument for the rest of it at a non existent D and G ( only available at company behest ) or a non existent labour tribunal.

Never heard anyone getting fired for “only following OMPA”, though plenty who thought they were helping the company out and then this **** joint used some lame excuse to kick their ass out the door.

[mngmt mole]

Ultimately, it surprises me that anyone thinks any of this matters anymore. You can add a few extra minutes here and there, but nothing will really make up for a 60% pay cut. The only real effect any of you will have is in leaving the company altogether. Anyone who stays is simply a cog in a machine that is taking advantage of them individually, and only contributing to the benefit of managers and owners. The employee is now nothing more than something to be used, abused and discarded. That is what CX now represents.

[Walkingthedog]

Lets be frank it’s years since anyone took a stand and 49 of them were fired.

That was the defining moment for industrial action in CX. No surprise that everyone rolled over again ( “no choice”) despite all the brave talk.

It’s going to take you 7% per annum pay rise for about 11 years to get back to where you were in October. That’s not going to happen so it’s either suck it up or leave.A stark choice particularly as there’s nowhere to go. All of the above assumes that CX survives.

As MM implies anything you can or will do is less than an annoyance to them they’ve already saved their money and banked their future bonuses.

If it makes you feel better go for it but don’t expect them to even notice.

[Flex88]

mngmt mole

Welcome to the newest State in the PRC. Corporate management with "Asian" values and I use the term "management" with repulsion as no company have I ever seen been so ineptly managed.. And when you wander to the 3rd floor looking for solace and get your daily fix of empty platitudes from those who pushed unconscious bias and diversity courses, you do not yet get the situation.. They are as fake as human beings can possibly be and swine have a better moral compass...

[Sam Ting Wong]

To call management amoral is like calling a lion amoral because he eats a gazelle. Management act in the interest of shareholders, period.

What a waste of energy.

[Flex88]

You're funny in a dense and naive sort of way😲

[Walkingthedog]

I think you mean management are supposed to act in the interest of shareholders.
Inept managers don’t always do so by default!
Sometimes ethics also enters into the equation.
The lower you get down the food chain the more the connection to shareholders interests becomes diluted. Self interest becomes a far more realistic driver.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Every player in this game wants to maximise their profit. It's all about money, nothing else. You, me, Piet, the board, the shareholders, everybody wants as much as possible for himself. It's business, there are no morals, no ethics, just a legislation that sets the rules and a market that hands you your cards.

[Walkingthedog]

Sure but you are leaving out negligence that often goes unpunished out unethical behavior. Originally the discussion was about whether management amoral. I think it should be whether they ever are immoral.

[SuzieWong]

controlledrest

Happy to help out with a few random vectors and a couple of holds at ABBEY/BETTY/CANTO seeing as CAD just ditched a bunch of experienced expats.

[Fly747]

I’m sorry to hear that Suzie but I guess with so few flights it was inevitable.
While I’m still here I will continue to fly as efficiently and professionally as possible. I’ll let others play games, it only makes you more bitter.

[Piet Lood]

Sam Ting Wong

And there you have it. Your admission in writing.
Except as someone above said: you are dense.
And wrong.
I, for one, never needed to “maximise my profit”.
It wasn’t “all about money, (and) nothing else” for me.
I cared about not being lied to, cheated and stolen from.
I would have loved to continue working for cx if there was even a modicum of inspiration or example from management. Not even one manager demonstrated leadership in this outfit.
Not a single one I would have followed into “war” if this were a different industry.
And before you state the obvious that this is not the military: you are absolutely right as not a single one of our “managers” (including your beloved Gus) would have lasted very long.
The equivalent of “war” in this industry exists and I would have loved to work for and have worked for companies I would have gladly given up my “profit” for many years to help their survival.
I know restaurant owners with more leadership skills than current and past cx management.

That and being surrounded by gits like yourself who could only talk about and were interested in themselves and money, make me happy I am no longer part of the cx operation.

Thank you for your honesty.

[Progress Wanchai]

The chest beating is pathetic.

How much have we lost? For some crew it’s up to 60%.
How much will you recoup by adding another block hour each month? Approximately 1%.
Well that’ll wipe the smirk off management’s face when they discover they’ve only stolen 59% from you and your family. I’ve no doubt crew will find a way to sweep up a crumb or two, but it’ll hardly have the company reassessing their strategy.

That being said, a manager who remains on his legacy contract because his role is incompatible with a productivity based system while forcing crew onto a productivity contract while knowing the rostering system is just as incompatible is hardly going to be taken seriously. I’ve no doubt they will be watching and will make an example of a couple of crew. That’s the only way they know how to lead. From behind with a big stick.

[LongTimeInCX]

May I ask which management positions have been retained on legacy contracts?

[MENELAUS]

Well it wouldn't be too hard to guess, would it Long long time ago ?
And trainers with preferential housing rates, guaranteed hours, leave etc. ( compared to the troops).
Oh, and unpublished salary levels. A matter between the individual and the co.
Nice eh ?

[Runway Change]

Goodluck to Cathay Pathetic thinking they can save a few bucks with this one. I'm glad myself and few others with some experience behind us, said no to the HR marketing team when they showed us this same per hour payment idea already two years ago at a Pilot Expo in Berlin. The bright eyed, bushy tailed, wannabee cadets/second officers on the other hand wanted all of it. Just give them free lanyards, Cathay pens and they were sold on this new idea.

Here in Europe we can clearly see who is paid monthly and who is paid per hour. The per hour boys frequently turn down direct to shortcuts, prefer the further runway option, offer to do an extra hold, fly slower and actually taxi at around 10 knots. I wonder how their pax feel when we frequently overtake them on the parallel taxiways whilst taxiing at a normal/acceptable pace. When I say they fly slower, I have seen on occasion other carriers flying up to 50 knots slower than us on the same route, same aircraft type just because their crew are paid per hour.

It doesn't seem like much, but really adds up to the monthly bank balance apparently and of course it's done because the crew are also trying to rack up more hours & bugger off asap. The carriers that operate with this method of treating their crew are short term career options (unlike Cathay, or so Cathay used to be) and everyone here in Europe knows it. That's how the low cost carriers get away with it. A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.

[lucille]

A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.


Interesting observation. The implication is that these companies now believe that experience levels have far less a value to the safety of an operation than in the past. If true, then this new business model of dumbing down the profession would pretty much spell the end to decent T&Cs across the industry. Not just LCCs.

Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?

[bm330]

Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?

In a word, yes.

[Rie]

We aren't looking at it we are living it. This has been the case since the mass of expat cadets started with only a hundred hours flight instruction time. Pick the people who can learn the FCTM off by heart and you'll be "safe"

[Freehills]

lucille

Been the case in Europe for a long time now. The whole 'Children of the Magenta Line' thing. Thing is, it is probably true (that experience does not improve safety significantly enough for an airline to value it) ATSB in Australia studied it
Pilot experience and performance in an airline environment (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjG_6HArITuAhWXxDgGHR4kBmUQFjAAegQIBRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atsb.gov.au%2Fmedia%2F4171790%2Far-2012-023_final.pdf&usg=AOvVaw24PjwqW1xNvswEqcfi5_2G)

[RAT Management]

controlledrest

I think this whole rant by the CP was pretty much code for: We know what you guys are planning on this new COS, and we will be watching, so look out!

Given that this pandemic won't be over by mid this year, I would be willing to bet that they will look forward to making an example of a few that milk the per hour charges just to make the others submit and toe the line. As far as the management are concerned it will be a win win.

Besides, there ain't any point in milking those charges until you get beyond the minimum, which I gather for everyone on the pax fleet its the minimum for the foreseeable future.

[Gnadenburg]

In the 22 Dec 'The Airbus Flyer', Glen D states 'We will need to operate our aircraft as efficiently as possible as every kilogram of fuel we save, or minute we are not paying 'per hour' charges, will greatly assist our recovery...'.

I find this a little extraordinary considering all the documentation provided about the threat of a "Currency Deficit". Prior to KA's cessation, the message was clear from Flight Op's, please be conservative. KA Managers driving this message home survived the purge and moved over to CX. The couldn't feel any different or any less concerned now? There's got to be a lot of life change and stress on the CX Flight Deck and it would be extraordinary for a pilot in a management role not to be aware?

Anyways, hoping the CX guys can see well beyond this inconsistent management rhetoric and look after themselves. It's an unusually stressful place to work- well maybe that was just flying to China- as many of my ex-KA friends can't believe how relaxing unemployment is. Once you've navigated the bumpy road of the CX redundancy process of course.

Take it easy!

[Icarus2001]

It’s a brave new world out there, and there’s currently a surfeit of pilots.

Yes but the wheel turns, it always does, slowly, like the ox and the earth. One day, in the foreseeable future there will be a travel boom to levels never seen before as people travel to that special place they wanted to see before they die or another virus or disaster locks them at home. It will become known as the roaring twenties (again) just like post WW1. When that day comes pilots will once again be in very high demand, it will come and salaries will rise to suit. Those days will be pay pack for companies that treated employees poorly, they will bleed pilots to other carriers.

[mngmt mole]

You are correct Icarus, but unfortunately the current pilots suffer the loss of income and benefits. It will be several years at best before CX feels inclined to increase pay, and when they do it will be like pulling teeth! The company will reap the reward of the savings on COS18, and they have done it on the backs of their loyal staff. The truth of their intent is that there was no offer of a snap-back provision in the deal. They know good times will return...but those good times will only apply to management and their bonuses. Generally speaking, the career of "pilot" is over as far as CX is concerned.

[PatObrien]

People (😂) CX will never increase pay. The union is BEYOND weak. So only depending on CX benevolence 😂. Get :mad: REAL!

[cannot]

One thing to remember for everyone who has done 10 plus years and is thinking of resigning or taking early retirement . If there is no CX there is no staff travel in your retirement , that is a big loss . Yes the pay cut is abhorrently difficult to swallow and leaves an incredibly bitter taste in ones mouth . I don’t blame anyone for doing whatever they can , but the airline industry worldwide has been decimated The really sad thing is that had we been fairly treated during the last 22 years most of us would have been more than happy to help out ..

[TheGreenDragon]

You’ve been treated very well by cx, all things considered. Your sister airline was trashed, 550 laid off.
The paycut is neither here nor there. You will return to work, after a year of full pay. You will then earn flight pay and double your basic, bringing pay to somewhere near pre covid levels. You will look forward to those long haul trips, getting away from hk and the wife.
Some pilots from ka will never fly again. Think about it .

[8driver]

What contact or rather handbook are you reading? Some guys are looking at over a 50% pay cut for January. A productivity based contract would be fine if they hadn't decided to stay massively overstaffed. Or if pilots had a say in that productivity. You know, add trips from open time and drop trips if you want to work less. Like most major airlines have had for ages. 35 hours on the 747 is a huge pay cut. Being overstaffed they can roster that. 600 hours a years is a pay cut, which is 50 hours. They've taken a first rate rostering system from Jeppesen and gutted it to a half baked request system. Only an airline in complete denial of how pilots work would think guys are going to fly as efficiently as possible when it takes money out of their paycheck.

[TheGreenDragon]

As I mentioned, 50% cut for Jan is a hell of alot of an improvement than being unemployed. Things will improve from where they are now.. Don't be so selfish. Your productivity will increase, your pay will rise and all will be well. Not as good as 1 year ago, but hey ho, theres only been a global health emergency, and aviation was one of the main reasons it spread so unbelievably quickly.

[DropKnee]

Globocnik

According to you we should just surrender and accept our fates. Maybe one the the lord will allow us his scraps again. Treat me like crap, i give you crap. Not concerned in the least bit with management bs. In a year they will be short and only a fool would join this outfit.

[mngmt mole]

TheGreenDragon

"...don't be so selfish...." ?? Seriously...? No words.

[Gaisha]

DropKnee

..... and yet you’re still here.

[dabz]

People will still join CX for the wide body time. 1000hrs should get you a "stable" job somewhere else.

[Sam Ting Wong]

There will never be a crew shortage at Cathay and there won't be any better "stable" jobs elsewhere, only long hours for peanuts at a LCC.

[Curry Lamb]

Go look up the amount of aircraft on order at ME airlines such as EK as an example. Not exactly LCCs and the long hours are very well rewarded with basic pay exceeding that of CX by far.
Not to mention time to command still at the 4-5 year mark, and a 5 bedroom, 3000 SQFT villa for free, all utilities paid, zero tax.

Other so called LCCs may pay peanuts, but it’s really what you take home at the end of the day and working for nice people that matters, unlike the conniving buffoons here at CXit

[Sam Ting Wong]

Time to command, recruitment, money ,hours, accomodation etc after the crisis at EK is completely open at this point, as is the composite and size of their future fleet.

[Bangaluru]

Curry Lamb

”ME airlines” and “nice people” in the same post. Haha haha. Hahahaha.

[Koan]

One perverted dwarf in a white abaya immediately comes to mind.

[Curry Lamb]

Bangaluru

Two completely different paragraphs. The point is there are LCCs paying “peanuts” according to STW, and yet people whom I know there are happy and actually enjoying it.

Living conditions in many other countries, especially around SE Asia, can be cheap, and the “peanuts” actually goes a long way.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Happy expat pilots at LCC in Asia and quick time to command at EK... Curry, I think you urgently need a reality check..

[Bueno Hombre]

controlled rest

Yes . I was very fuel efficient with Air Hong Kong in the nineties but never got any recognition for it.

[Bueno Hombre]

There will never be a crew shortage at Cathay and there won't be any better "stable" jobs elsewhere, only long hours for peanuts at a LCC.

Yes , indeed , CX pilot salaries need to be aligned with supply and demand for applicants within HKSAR ..

[Rie]

If COS21 is the next move then where is that aligned with? Vietnam or the Phillipines are the only place I can think of that an expat can get that pay... Now the ME3 pay nearly double that once you take the free accommodation/schooling and power into account.

[Bangaluru]

Fair enough. It just looked funny.