NEW DAMS RAID DOCUMENTARY

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Dan Snow presents a new documentary on the Dams Raid (Op CHASTISE) - Tuesday 1 Dec 20 at 2100, UK Channel 5.

PLEASE - no smart @rse comments on the dog's name......

[Jhieminga]

What, not even on this particular Friday? :oh:

Thanks for the heads up!

[DaveReidUK]

Dan Snow presents a new documentary on the Dams Raid (Op CHASTISE) - Tuesday 1 Dec 20 at 2100, UK Channel 5.

Parts 2 and 3 on the following evenings.

[XV490]

More fodder for Channel 5 audiences who think Chastise was Bomber Command's only operation in WWII. Still, some nice (if inevitable) air-to-air shots of Coningsby's Lancaster, I hear.

I recommend watching the video link referred to under the 'RV Jones...' (https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/636936-prof-rv-jones-royal-institution-xmas-lectures-1981-a.html)title in this sub-section earlier in the week, in which - in colour - the esteemed boffin talks to a real Dambuster, Air Marshal 'Micky' Martin, about employing triangulation on the run-in.

Kudos to the OP, ROC Man: I learned a few things I never knew before about the operation.

[Asturias56]

Really - has he anything new to say? I doubt it.........................

[Saint-Ex]

Actually a fair amount of information was covered by the Official Secrets Act when the original film was made, so who knows?

[Asturias56]

yeah but there's a new documentary every six months - because it is somwthing Joe Public recognises, it's a simple tale , a one night operation - they can't get the bums on seats for say Coastal Command

[CAEBr]

Really - has he anything new to say? I doubt it.........................
Well, after he told his daughters that loads of female pilots flew Spitfires in the Battle of Britain, perhaps we'll be treated to the revelation that some of them were streamed off in training and went onto bombers before GG chose a couple of all female crews. :rolleyes:

[POBJOY]

The more 'Docu Drama' offerings that come out really only highlight what a good job they made of the original film.
The original film gave a very good idea of both the human cost of the operation plus the very tight time schedule for the tech side and crew training.
Films are basically entertainment, and should not be treated as historical material, but in the case of the Dam Busters they certainly did a good job considering the security constraints at the time of making. The clips of the 'no ball' trials were excellent and then we had Eric Coates giving us that classic theme tune. But it also finished with a very moving ending, that left no one in any doubt of the true cost of the operation, and how empty the mess was the next morning, which of course was true of Bomber Command at the time.

[Krystal n chips]

Dan Snow presents a new documentary on the Dams Raid (Op CHASTISE) - Tuesday 1 Dec 20 at 2100, UK Channel 5.

PLEASE - no smart @rse comments on the dog's name......

However interesting the programme maybe, there's one obvious problem.....you mentioned him at the onset.

[XV490]

Aside from Eric Coates' theme, much of the emotional impact of the original film should be credited to composer Leighton Lucas' incidental score - some of which (albeit adapted) can be heard here.

I still find it very moving 55 years after first seeing the film.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Really - has he anything new to say? I doubt it.........................

Bearing in mind that the film was highly inaccurate in a lot of respects, but forms the basis of much of the Great British Public's knowledge of the operation, perhaps a proper documentary - as opposed to docudrama - telling the correct factual history is overdue.

KnC - nice try! Fail.

[Boeing Jet]

I wonder if the remake of the Dambusters is still on the cards!!

[PAXboy]

New information? Or new ways to show the old information?

In the current circumstances TV and Film makers are going for the easy money options, even more so than they always have done. Whilst there are many stories of WWII not yet told, they will always be overtaken by the mythology of the Lancaster and the Spitire. The Hurricane still loses out. The Mosquito wins more than the Beaufighter and the Halifax and others.

[meleagertoo]

Really - has he anything new to say? I doubt it.........................
Has the excerable Dan Snow anything useful to say on anything at all?

[wub]

I’m sure I’ve seen this before, the trailer shows Snow flying the route in a light twin. I recall seeing that, the pilot was ex-Red Arrows. Does that ring a bell with anyone else?

[Tocsin]

I’m sure I’ve seen this before, the trailer shows Snow flying the route in a light twin. I recall seeing that, the pilot was ex-Red Arrows. Does that ring a bell with anyone else?

Martin Shaw (actor and pilot) did something like that a few years ago?

[tdracer]

There was a great program on the Smithsonian Channel recently about what happened to the 617 squadron after the dam buster raid. Having put together a squadron capable of precision bombing, the RAF naturally wanted to keep using it's ability. Very interesting stuff that I'd not heard of before (not all successful raids though, and losses continued to be heavy).
I don't recall exactly what the program was called - although I saved the program on my DVR, I'm not currently at home to check it.

[exMudmover]

There was a great program on the Smithsonian Channel recently about what happened to the 617 squadron after the dam buster raid. Having put together a squadron capable of precision bombing, the RAF naturally wanted to keep using it's ability. Very interesting stuff that I'd not heard of before (not all successful raids though, and losses continued to be heavy).
I don't recall exactly what the program was called - although I saved the program on my DVR, I'm not currently at home to check it.

Here's a tip: switch off your TV and read the book - The Dam Busters by Paul Brickhill. The story of 617 is in there right up to the end of the war. Some of the stuff they did later was even more dangerous than the dams raid e.g. the Dortmund-Ems canal attacks. Men of steel.

[Warmtoast]

Another golden oldie from the past (1945) is being broadcast on Film4 this Wednesday afternoon at 12.50. "The Way To The Stars" with John Mills among others. Well worth watching.
WT

[Standby Scum]

Dam Busters

[rolling20]

My own view was that after Chastise, none of the aircrew should have operated again, they had done their bit, regardless that many of them hadn't even done a first tour.
Subsequent ops were just as dangerous, down right reckless in the case of the Dortmund Ems op.
As for Gibson, as Mick Martin said, there wasn't a target left worth risking his young life for.

[DaveReidUK]

I watched the first two parts, amid some interruptions, so I may have missed it - but I don't recall any mention (even while we watched Dan Snow gently rotating the Upkeep outside the hangar at Scampton) that it had to be spun up to 500 rpm before being released from the aircraft.

That, despite a clip that clearly showed the mechanism for doing so, albeit without any explanation.

Maybe it will be remarked on in tonight's final part?

[beamer]

It beggers belief that they are telling the story yet again. Nothing new in the two episodes so far other than rather sad snips of how sad Scampton looks today.

I saw the movie again the other day, unfortunately the sanitised PC version, but it still stands up so well and should never be re-made.

[Herod]

Sad to see Scampton.Mess in that state. I went past Syerston a couple of years ago, and the Mess there is even worse. All the windows broken, the roof falling in. Remembering the graduation ball back in '66, it brought tears to my eyes.

[BEagle]

Apart from Dan's rather gushing manner, I've enjoyed the first 2 episodes.

But what has shocked me most was the deplorable state into which Sunny Scampton has now fallen. RAFAT do at least keep some of it alive, but the state of the Officers' Mess is quite appalling. I served 3 years on 35 Sqn and again when I did a CFS course 10 years later - but the state of most of the station now is awful.

Looking forward to episode 3 tonight!

[ShyTorque]

Beagle, yes I was horrified to see how bad the Mess looked. I lived therein late 1988/ early 1989, during my CFS course. Great days.

[Allan Lupton]

Much as I expected with all the presentation gimmicks that annoy me (and I expect others of my generation) such as the use of the Historic Present tense, intrusive music, re-enactors and little or nothing new despite stretching it to three hour-long installments.
Lots of gee-whizz cliches from Snow and two of the three others, but Max Hastings was rather better and said all that needed saying.

[FlightlessParrot]

SNIP I look forward to seeing if they are all in Max Hastings's late-1970s account, which I bought a month or two ago and am yet to read.


Hastings has written a monograph on the operation very recently (published 2019, IIRC: Chastise). Despite the fact that Hastings is not a young lefty (being neither young, nor left) he has been accused of undervaluing heroism, of course. To the contrary, it seems to me that he is very clear about the heroism of Gibson, in particular, whilst also being conscious of the fact that heroes are very often not comfortable people to be around (cf. The Iliad for an early example).

As for the remake of the film, last I heard Peter Jackson still had the rights, so let's hope it never gets made: he would make it into a video game experience.

[FantomZorbin]

I first saw Dambusters at school sitting on the floor of the gym, the film having been introduced by a Flt Lt looking terrified ...
He wasn't terrified of us, but of the Marshal of the RAF Lord Tedder sitting on the tiny seats a few rows back!!

Poor devil he must have drawn a very short straw indeed!!!

[Asturias56]

"he would make it into a video game experience"

Well in many ways I can see why - steaming in, down a valley, in the dark, grazing the water and then turning your lights on to drop a weapon that no-one was sure would actually work.................. really there wasn't another operation in WW2 on either side that matched it

​​​​​​​All the others had at least tested SOME of the variables

[Krystal n chips]

Sad to see Scampton.Mess in that state. I went past Syerston a couple of years ago, and the Mess there is even worse. All the windows broken, the roof falling in. Remembering the graduation ball back in '66, it brought tears to my eyes.

It's not just the Mess, the whole station ( Syerston ) has been deteriorating for many years as noted from my ad hoc flying with "4 C's " GC

Back to the programme.....watched the start of the second one and when Snow decided to do his "impression " of Gibson, with a pipe, rapidly selected another channel.

Watched again last night, but again, nothing new emerged at least in the 20 mins I watched.

[Allan Lupton]

The other thing that irritated me was the inconsistent pronunciation of German names.
I know we British are supposed to be poor at speaking foreign so we had Mohne rather than Möhne but at least the "e" was sounded where it wasn't in the German gunner's name Schütte. As for Eder we have a couple of ways of pronouncing the "Ed" bit as per Edward or Eden and they used the latter where the former would be correct. If they'd wanted the pronunciation used, it would have been called the Ider Talsperre;)

[Saint-Ex]

Why?????? You can`t change history with this ridiculous wokeness.

[Saint-Ex]

Sorry my post was meant to challenge "Downwind".

[XV490]

The other thing that irritated me was the inconsistent pronunciation of German names.
I know we British are supposed to be poor at speaking foreign so we had Mohne rather than Möhne but at least the "e" was sounded where it wasn't in the German gunner's name Schütte. As for Eder we have a couple of ways of pronouncing the "Ed" bit as per Edward or Eden and they used the latter where the former would be correct. If they'd wanted the pronunciation used, it would have been called the Ider Talsperre;)

Indeed. They'd have done well to ask their contributor, Victoria Taylor, a PhD student at Hull, about German pronunciation: she's very good at getting it right.

And who decided on the incessant use of the word mission(s) instead of operation(s)? I'd have thought any primary-source reading of the subject would have revealed standard Bomber Command, not USAAF, parlance.