Why so few girls ?

[Doudou]

Hi everybody!
I was just wondering why so few girls wannabee pilots, but a lot of them wannabee stewardesses.
Is it because we still have in mind this old stuff: the man pilot with the good looking female flight attendants?

[Gin Slinger]

Females tend to aim where they feel their strengths lie, as do males - this is truly in line with equality of opportunity, rather than female bouncers or men who choose to be midwives.

[Non Iron Chippy]

Having worked down 'the back', I have asked this question myself to so many cabin crew, those that genuinely love the airline lifestyle see their careers going in the direction of being promoted to a purser/no.1/cabin supervisor, then a training role rather than moving up front, to some it may seem as natural career progression to others it may seem as lack of ambition.

The girls that I met during my CPL/ATPL courses all had previous hostie experience and were very determined students but if something was not working out they did play the simpathy card, and too often many blokes fell for it!!!!haha

Having said that, none of them are unemployed now, and so I say good luck to the lot.

Ability has nothing to do with gender etc. we are all here on or own merits and ambition.

[Baldie Man]

I don't think the vast majority of people do still have this mindset of the male pilot and the female "hostie". Most people I speak to outside the industry are well aware that a female could be up front just as much as a male pilot.

Of the eight journeys I've made as a passenger in the past nine months I can tell you that once we had a female Captain and once we had a female F/O.

I think you'll find that many peoples views on this in and outside the wannabe community are changing fast if they haven't already.

The ratio of male to female wannabes is probably around 10:1. But this is ratio will be closing down all the time.

As for whether the guys have more ambition than the girls for getting in the pointy bit - I think it purely comes down to whether they actually want to do the job. In other words - does it interest them? It is most likely a case of the job holding no personal attraction for them.

BM.

[Studying Again]

There were 3 girls on my ATPL course. Myself included. We had all had professional careers and had not worked as cabin crew.
So, Gin Slinger, where exactly do female's strengths lie? Did you know that there are many male nurses now?

[Gin Slinger]

SA - did I say anything about actual strengths of females compared to males? No. I was trying to answer the original question.

What I was talking about was individual's self-perceptions of what they're good at or what they'd enjoy. I wasn't talking mine or anyone else's views on what constitutes fitting work for a lady.

Men on the whole tend to gravitate more to technical occupations, such as lathe operating or piloting, and women towards activities such as being a primary school teacher or nursing. Some women choose to work on building sites, and some men choose to be perm people's hair for a living, but in both cases they'd be in the minority, same with females who are training to be professional pilots.

I don't have any problem with female pilots, in fact, my IMC instructor was a girlie and very happy I was being taught by her too.

[sally at pprune]

It’s interesting that you rank being a pilot alongside lathe operating GS. It’s also interesting that you regard it as a technical role. One thing I’ve picked up in talking to airline training pilots is that the technical side should be a given. The areas they most frequently come across problems are with interpersonal and team skills, and mental capacity. Funnily enough, those are areas where women tend to perform well; better, on average, than men.

Personally, I’m coming from a technical background (engineering) where interpersonal skills were too often overlooked in recruiting (or personal development).

I’ve got a long way to go and a lot to learn about being a pilot. Perhaps it is too presumptuous of me to suggest that the days of male dominance of the profession may be numbered as ‘soft skills’ become more important. ;)

[Doudou]

Hi,
I read few years ago an article about the differences between men and women, or actually, it was mors about boys and girls. Definitly, our brains are functionning differently. Most of the time (you always have exceptions), the boy have better space orientation, 3-dimension seeing, and have more "action" skills, and girls have more social and language skills, I even noticed myself girls start to speak earlier and better than boy, when boy are already running and cannot say 3 words correct.
So, finally, there is no one better than the other, just we are different, and in a airplane, I even should say complimentary... So is the ideal team a man and a woman in a cockpit?

[Gin Slinger]

Sally:

Operating a lathe can be compared to operating an aircraft, both involve machine monitoring, both involve reading charts and have replaced hand/eye control with button pressing - what else do you want??? ;)

Is piloting a technical role? I reckon so, although I take your point about the interpersonal aspects of it. Even if employers take technical knowledge as read, there's still a hell of a lot of detail you need to cram in your head and understand to pass your ATPLs, and I hear type rating courses are more of the same. An engineering background will definately be an advantage here.

Interestingly enough, I was told by a statistician friend of mine - female incidentally - that the National Office of Statistics classifies pilots as Associate Professionals, alongside sales reps and graphic designers. Not an easy fit. Perhaps it defies classification?

Back to the original question, little boys tend to play with model aeroplanes and little girls tend to play with tea sets. When they grow up, it's no surprise as to what sort of careers they end up doing. Whether this is due to nurture rather than nature, I dunno - my GCSE Sociology only goes so far - the only male in the class, btw!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Absolutely no reason at all why it shouldn't be 50:50

Apart from the polically incorrect - with a twist.

Conditioning and paucity of expectation amongst girls in the UK

Perhaps Sally would care to briefly describe the campaigns by the Engineering Council - they've been run for the last 25 years that I know of just to get a single digit percentage of women in the industry.

The vast majority of girls leaving school in the UK have no expectation of, or family support for a career in one of the more exotic or well paid professions that require tertiary level qualification or beyond.

Now then, you're about to leap down my throat and shower me me all your examples to prove otherwise amongst your family, friends and colleagues at school.

I can do just the same but I write very carefully indeed - I said the majority. A very important majority - the low paid worker bees the economy depends on and which, despite protestations to the contrary, commerce and industry don't want to lose from a 'service' economy.

As quite a few of you know Danny and I had extremely varied careers before becoming professional pilots close to the ages of 40. I spent 13 years in an inner city area getting students prepared for and into work. An impromtu back of the fag packet calculation show just over 7,000 were girls.

Of those less than ten went straight onto something most of would regard as 'interesting.' IT, journalism, photography and so on. Well under a thousand went on to some form of degree level education.

What was utterly frustrating were the incredibly intelligent ones, several hundred of whom were entirely capable of qualifications and careers at the very highest level. Their expections were so low that despite an entire school career of top marks, assessment and praise they uniformly could see no further than a job in a bank or building society. More worryingly they were viewed by the others as the creme de la creme achieving jobs they could never aspire to.

Not one ever in 13 years said they wanted to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist or engineer although one who was expelled became a very good computer networking specialist for a company called Gandalph.

I've no illusions that this post will garner support - it's just not PC to suggest our culture and establishment aren't supportive and the public have swallowed the stories of girls outperforming boys in exams without ever considering what happens to them afterwards. But tell you what. Why not hold off from replying until after you've taken your next walk around a big shopping centre, a couple of supermarkets, burger joints, and, knowing you lot, pubs........... The evidence is looking at you from across every counter you stop at.

Rob

[Oleo]

Well, and sadly, said PT.

My Mum for years pestered me in despair to have a baby - "you only need to have one"!!! and was incredulous that after all those years I should still be throwing money and effort at a career that I couldn't possibly be that interested in.

But last week my Dad pointed out a 737 going over head (they don't often appear in their part of the world) and said "that's what our Oleo flies" and she has a little weep!!

Humph!

They were good parents, but never offered any support and encouraged me to give it up whenever the going got tough. Luckily my other half is the opposite.

The sad truth is that most girls never even think of flying and it is seen as beyond grasp because of the expence if they do.

Most girls just aren't interested, I have even had one off our smarter FAs sympathise saying "It must be so boring reading the same checklist over and over again"!!!!

[borg]

....... I guess it proves they are the smarter sex.

[FlyingForFun]

Excellent thread. I've seen several threads (there's one running in Private Flying now) about how male and female pilots, being the minority, are treated differently, but I can't say I've ever really stopped to think why there are so few female pilots out there in the first place.

It seems that the general opinion on this thread is that there is no difference in the opportunities offered to men and women, the difference is in the desire to become a pilot in the first place, which seems to make sense to me. I can't think of much to add, except in response to Sally's comment that communication and teamwork skills are as important in being a pilot as the technical skills. I'm sure you're right, Sally - you, I, and most people on this forum know that because we're interested in the industry. But the majority of people who have no connection with aviation, including the average school-age girl, probably don't realise this - I expect that many girls (and boys, for that matter) who are not particularly technically-minded would never even consider a career as a pilot because they believe it to be a 100% technical job, even though we know this is not the reality.

Another thought: Sally also said:

The areas they most frequently come across problems are with interpersonal and team skills, and mental capacity. Funnily enough, those are areas where women tend to perform well; better, on average, than men.
Could it be that the reason these are the areas where most problems occur is because most pilots are men? If it were possible seperate out and to look at the statistics just for the women trainee pilots, would we find that women have more problems with the technical aspects, and less problems with interpersonal skills? I have no idea, I'm just curious.

(By the way, I've flown with 3 female pilots - 2 of my instructors, and 1 very good friend who is a low-hour PPL. In my opinion, two of these women are extremely good pilots. One of them - the instructor who taught me for my night qualification - was an average pilot and an average instructor, at best. Although it's only a very small sample, this ratio is pretty much exactly the same as my experiences with male pilots.)

FFF
-----------

[RVR800]

Only 2% of ATPL holders ref UK CAA web stats site are Female!

Its an obsessive male hobby is flying!

A psychologist reports thats its got something to do with the shape of the fuselage (ask WWW)

[Tinker]

I operate lathes and mills and also have an fATPL. The difference being a four year apprenticeship instead of a 12 month one. There are fewer written exams involved in turning aswell.:D

[Gin Slinger]

yes, and working in a machine shop pays considerably more an hour than as a FI(R)...

[scroggs]

I have trained many men and women in the fine art of flying (and the finer arts of air-to-air refuelling and low-level operations) over the last 15 years. I concluded long a go that there is no significant difference in intrinsic ability between the two sexes in this field. There is, as Prune Towers so eloquently said, a vast difference in expectation. I don't have the definitive answer as to why that should be, but I suspect that much of it is down to peer pressure between 13-18 years of age. Perhaps Sally and Oleo would care to comment on how many of their female school acquaintances fully supported them as opposed to the number that said 'you'll never do that'?

Having said that, things do appear to be improving. There is far less real prejudice around than some would have you believe, and gradually the number of women that aspire to traditionally male careers is increasing. I hope that in 5 or 10 years time this subject would never come up!

[redsnail]

Yep,
Approx 1% of all airline pilots in the world is female.

I have done a few jobs trying to gather the income to fly.
Fortunately I have been a feral animal all my life and my parents were quite used to me wanting to do "non girly" activities. So when I told them that I was going to learn to fly they were very supportive. I have been lucky. My parents have never said to me "No you can't do that".
They even gave up trying to make me sell the Ducati.
My school mates sort of expected me to do something "interesting". I guess that just shows you do need to be able to ignore peer pressure and to be yourself from an early age. :D

[melissab]

I feel compelled to respond to this thread as a girl and a pilot. I can honestly say that all the way through school and university I was not only the only girl with asperations of being a commercial pilot, but practically the only person!

Whilst I agree that fewer girls are interested in flying, I have to say that one of the great things about aviation is the fact that it attracts such a varied and diverse fan base, this is not just about sex. When I was training in this country I was usually the only girl, but this was never an issue and in general I was treated on a par with all the rest. I was also fortunate in the fact that my parents have always stood by be whatever I chose to do.

I firmly believe that a love of flying is all one needs to get into this industry and that often comes from within. I don't think we should expect the cabin crew to want to be pilots, just like I don't think nurses should aspire to be doctors. Self motivation is very important in the commercial world and why push people into something they don't really want? All farmers sons don't now take over the farm! Change will happen because we want it to, not because we force people into it. Aviation is far too personal to be just about gender. ;)

[Baldie Man]

Well said Melissab!

Exactly what I was trying to say in my post but being a bloke didn't feel it was right for me to point out really.

Most girls I know fall asleep if flying gets mentioned and most blokes want to know the in's and out's. That's just the way things are for good or for bad.

Just because something interests you does not mean you should expect it to interest everyone. We all know this but what needs to be in place is some sort of structure within schools and colleges that actively encourages/promotes women to pursue whatever career does interest them whatever it may be. Does this currently exist? Been a while since I was in school.

BM.

[Cheshire cat EGHH]

Many girls prefer to keep their feminity, doing a sterotypical males job will downgrade their "attrativness".

Or could be cos some can't keep up with the fellas on nightstops!.

:p :p :p :p :p :p

[Fogbound]

well I usually object to this type of topic coming into play but there seems to be a rational and genuine discussion forming here!:)

I empathise with a lot of the seemingly sweeping statements being bandied about. having lived in close proximity to an international airport since the age of 4 and being fascinated by anything skywards I always used to look at the aircraft and think ' that must be a great job, but I couldn't do it!' This wasn't due to my belief that I wouldn't have the ability or aptitude, I just believed that for some reason somewhere I, just me, singled out in the crowd of people, would not be able/allowed to fly.

At the age of 14 I was in the Air Training Corps, still with the afforementioned belief, and I was pushed towards a trial flying lesson. As soon as I got into the C152 I knew I could do it, and that was that. I might as well have signed up with the £60,000 worth of training fees there and then.

Having never been particularly girlie I wanted to join the RAF, but mark 2 eyeballs let me down on that one. The decision was made for me, I wanted to fly and the only other option was civilian. After finishing my A Levels in June 1999 I started an ab initio integrated JAA course in the September (age 18).

I was one of approximately 15 girls in a college of approximately 500. Due to unforseen setbacks I found my self on more than 1 course where I was the only girl in a class of 15, not only that but I was the youngest person in the college for over a year. I fought prejudice because of my age and my gender, but I passed all the ground exams first time.

Having completed my training in December 2001 I am still trying to find flying work, just like countless others, male and female. I would hate to think I get that dream job just because I am female, and do not condone any such actions. I work in a predominately male industry and I get on and do the same job as the men. Both sexes have their strengths and weaknesses (as has been pointed out countless times before) but by working together we make the best of both worlds.

I love flying and I get great pleasure out of introducing people of all ages to aviation. It just made me realise for the first time the other day that I am a rarity (21 year old female with a frozen ATPL) when I was talking to someone who was just booking his CPL course and the date of birth was 1976. Not that old, but older, and it made me realise that I had only met or spoken to 3 other women in over 5 months who were looking at learning to fly.

As I said at the beginning of the post, I do not agree that there should be women only type organisations or clubs in this industry that is repeatedly being referred to as 'a small world', instead we should join together in the good old fashioned spirit of what was once referred to me as 'the two winged master race' (please take that reference in the jovial sense in which it was made!);)

[sally at pprune]

I accept that my story is not typical. My father is a pilot, my parents treated both my brother and I and with encouragement, whatever we wanted to do. I really believe that if I had wanted to be a hairdresser, they would have supported me as much as they are now (and you can imagine how pleased Dad is that I want to become a pilot despite absolutely no pressure from him).

Of my female peers, a significant number are already encumbered with families. Several of those were girls who professed ambition. Good luck to them; I was blessed with a good mother, and it is a role that requires more than a few months waddling and a few hours pain.

Maybe that is the difference. It’s OK for a guy to have obsessive ambition (how many autobiographies of successful guys include words to the effect that they saw little of their families?). It is less acceptable in a girl.

My uncle is a senior doctor. He says more there are women graduating from medical school than men. However, whereas male junior hospital doctors accept that their career demands 100% effort, the women expect time off for their families, expect their male colleagues to take up the slack and do not accept that a male colleague who has applied himself 100% to his career will advance faster than the girls.

That was a cautionary tale aimed at me. Put those two things together and we have the situation where:

- It’s an equal race at the starting block
- But you girls who recognise your biological destiny have to accept that the course becomes tougher for you (unless, apparently, you are a doctor)

Now, going back to Rob’s point (much more PC than mine), and bearing in mind that 90% of talk when you are a teenage girl is about boys and relationships and the inevitable outcome of those 2 in combination, is it surprising that many girls look at the potential task ahead of them and give up before it is started:

- take on the guys at their own game, on their home ground
- potentially raise a family at the same time
- don’t expect any extra rope
- have to be a tomboy (more of a man than the men) because otherwise you’ll be accused of using your feminine charms to your advantage

I’ve read some inspiring stories on PPRuNe written by women; look above this post on this thread for a couple. The only thing I regret is that they are particularly inspiring to me because I am a woman, rather than just a wannabe.

[Harry Wragg]

I guess in the end people should be allowed to do what they want to do. They should be encouraged but not forced to do something, regardless of their sex.

Personally, I think flying is a rather boring, repetitive, and procedurally orienatated type of job. Not really the kind of thing that most women aspire to.

To get back to basics however we all know the fundamental difference between men and women, it will never change, otherwise I suspect the planet might get a little quiet!

Being a pilot is fairly straightfoward, being a parent is THE most difficult job on the planet.

Harry

p.s. What I cannot understand is how anyone, male or female, does not like football, the best thing on the planet. That's what I seek, less flying, more footie!

[kwacha]

'on par with all','equal opportunities','level playing field','far less real prejudice ','no difference in the opportunities ', are all flattering comments that I've elicited from this excellent thread and from other threads on this brilliant website.But....really?.Perhaps the majority of the world's airlines are,especially the 'majors' but if we are truly to progress down the road of any of the aforementioned comments,are there any comments on the fact that the current #1 Airline has a 'no female in the cockpit' policy.'Aviation is far too personal to be just about gender' I certainly agree but if 'in 5 or 10 years time this subject would never come up' then as has often been said 'change must come from the top'.

[Pandora]

What I am finding weird from this discussion that it is becoming apparent that schools and various social pressures do all they can (or at least they did in my case) to stop girls having any ambition at all and then companies (not just in aviation) have to spend a lot of effort trying to entice girls to apply for the job. Once the girl (now a woman) is esconced in the job she is once again put off doing the job by the pressure on her from her company if she decides to have a child. It is a hard line to tread and consequently a lot of girls go for the easy life of a 'bank or check out girl'. However it is a simple fact of life that if every woman gave up having children in order to work, the human race would come to a very abrupt end. However it is also true that if every woman gave up working full stop to have children the country would probably run into serious financial trouble (think of all those old women with no pensions of their own relying on the state once their husband has died). So we need women to work, but we also need women to keep our families in running order.

How this is going to be encouraged is beyond me. I can only say I received absolutely no support from my school regarding any career. All of the nuns thought we would make lovely mothers, and jobs were only for boys. And since this was an all girls school, jobs and career advice were not on the agenda. My mother was very supportive, but she wanted me to be a professional showjumper (her own childhood dream).

[aztruck]

Not much mention yet of the role which the media plays in shaping people's expectations. Increasingly our lives are being "dumbed down" and access to challenging debate is being replaced by "spin" and carefully doctored statistics.
The obsession with quick fix solutions to life's problems has spilled over into every area, and the key seems to be that the new paradigm is abrogation of personal responsibility at all costs.
I dont think it's just a problem of women not wanting to be Pilots, but a wider malaise affecting society in general.
George Orwell thankfully got it wrong. Aldous Huxley sadly seems to have been pretty spot on with regard to our future Social development.
I'm probably spouting off the thread...sooo....
Female pilots are bloody excellent and fine individuals to have around. We should have more of them.
I'm done now and I'll go back in my box.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah but have you ever actually seen a woman try to parallel park?!

WWW

[scroggs]

Interesting points, all. I wonder where each of us would be now had we not had to cope with lack of encouragement, or too much encouragement in an unsuitable direction, when we were at school! I came from a family of aircrew (I'm the 3rd generation), and while I'd love my kids (one of each) to consider flying, I'd never shove it down their throats. It would be great to see them in music, or accountancy, or medicine, or family-raising, or whatever else they want to do - just so long as it is productive and satisfying for them. However, my own enthusiasms are likely to be fairly influential to them. I well remember enjoying my Dad's fantastic stories about his exploits in the Lightning when I was young (and some of the post-Happy Hour unrepeatable ones!). It would be crazy to suggest that his enthusiasm for his job didn't influence me. My Mum's music background gave me equal inspiration. Aviation won, but I still have great fun with music. It's perpetually disappointing to me that others weren't so well prepared for enjoying and making a fulfilling life.

However, there are real commercial problems when an employee decides that they want to follow two careers at once. Sally said: My uncle is a senior doctor. He says more there are women graduating from medical school than men. However, whereas male junior hospital doctors accept that their career demands 100% effort, the women expect time off for their families, expect their male colleagues to take up the slack and do not accept that a male colleague who has applied himself 100% to his career will advance faster than the girls. There are real issues here, and they will surface wherever women wish to combine parenting with a career and demand (or are forced into) time off to achieve this. I don't have the answers, but I suspect that we do need to stop trying to convince everyone that they can do anything and everything they want to, and instead that we all need to accept compromise as part of life.
Still, enough of that. If you are female and want to be a pilot, welcome to the club! Give it all your attention and effort and you will no doubt find that, in most companies, prejudice is conspicuously absent. Good luck!

[Harry Wragg]

Just a thought Pandora but it's not only women who receive no encouragement ref careers. I got little encouragement at all when I was considering employment. The majority of people are expected to take regular jobs in everyday careers, no-one is encouraged to achieve a dream!

Also, I see nothing wrong with wanting a family. I know many people who have this as their main aim in life, they don't want to change the world, fly to the moon, or be Prime Minister, they just want to have a family of their own.

Until people stop denigrating those who choose family life over a "career" then "having it all" (ie. burn't out by 40) will be forced upon successive generations.

Harry

p.s. Any child of mine who decides on a career in aviation is likely to be disowned!

[Oscar Duece]

Lets be honest guys.

We do need more female pilots, and more encouragement (tax / vat relief, government funding ...) for both sexes to get into this career.

In many cases woman are smarter and more mature than us, perfect for this job. Someone mentioned that only 1 % of all pilots are female, that amazes me.

Just because female pilots can't wear skirts doesn't make the job these femenin, does it ?. Being a pilot today is a very proffesional and technical job, ideal for woman to aspire to.

Out of all the frozen atpl FI's I have seen at our local (solent @ EGHI) over the past four years. The most proffesional and dedicated out of about 10 was a woman. Often twice as good as her males colleages (especially spurge). She went on to 733's with Go a few years back after a stunning sim ride and is doing very well last I heard. well done Kate

[Seriph]

There is a good book in circulation at present, 'Why men can't listen and women can't read maps'. It is a serious study into the differences twixt the sex's and explains a lot. It doesn't seek to establish any order of superiority and is refreshingly non PC but examines the strengths and merits of males and females and how they differ.

[femalesurgeon]

Sally,
Before you quote the comments of your small minded bigoted uncle, I suggest you research the subject yourself.

By quoting such utter rubbish you perpetuate the myths and sexism that some of your fellow females have to endure everyday.

I and many of my colleagues are no less dedicated than our male counterparts, we may not follow the traditional brown nosing the boss, fawning adoration route that many of my male colleagues aspire to, but that is in no way a reflection on my dedication.

If you wish to comment or quote ill informed sources, on another career, may I suggest you either do some reseach first or preferably engage what functioning neurones you have and keep quiet.

There is plenty of research to show that women medics, do take time off from their careers, however, they are more likely to return and that longterm retention is higher in females than males.

I will now stop my tirade before my BP shoots up even higher and I stroke out, thus expecting my male colleagues to cover my work, as I lie on ITU. Only problem is, there are none around because they have all taken a half day and are playing golf!!!

[tacpot]

We do need more female pilots, and more encouragement (tax / vat relief, government funding ...) for both sexes to get into this career.


To whose benefit is it to have more female Pilots entering the profession?

And to whose benefit is it to have more Pilots of both genders entering the profession?

Please don't think I am arguing for the opportunity to enter the profession to be restricted to males only. I'm just interested in why we need more women in the cockpit when there are plenty of men who will go through hell and high water to get into the cockpit.

[Blue Bug]

When i started flying, a female friend said to me..."you dont look like a pilot". To which, i replied, in some confusion, "eh?". She told me that i was lacking the moustache, grey hair and masculine physique.
Perhaps that train of thought has something to do with the lack of women taking to the skies.
(This situation hasn't put me off though ;) )

Lil Gal of the Skies.

[femalesurgeon]

tacpot a very sad post.
So if the job is dominated by men, then women should not be encouraged to take part. I a mafraid you sound like one of those sad males, who accuse women of taking their jobs.

I do not agree with positive discrimination, as I think this just gives sad people like yourself the right to say what you did. However, most females want equal rights, if I do not cut the mustard and a bloke is better than me then fine, but if my qualifications and skills are better ,then I should not be rejected due to my gender.

[tacpot]

My post was not a typical one, however I did want the assertion that any profession "needs" more females to be challenged.

So far as I can see, beyond any natural justice involved (and I do agree that no gender should be excluded from any profession), I can only see that devoting time, effort and money to encouraging a particular section of the community to enter a particular profession benefits only those people who actually enter the profession and the employers who need their labour. Surely to everyone else their entry to the profession is more competition.

Perhaps someone can explain why diversity in the cockpit on race, sex or any other basis (other than the natural diversity between any two human beings) is a benefit. I thought the point was that the job could be done by anyone. Ergo two white males should be able to do the job as well as two white females or two coloured females. So who does it benefit to have diversity? I'm happy to fly with anyone, but I cannot accept that I need a female in the team to even things up on a sexual basis.

I'm not worried about anyone male or female taking my job. I make a point of having skills that employers want. I am hired or fired on my own merits and on those alone.

Please can anyone answer the question?

[sally at pprune]

Femalesurgeon

Calm down. I almost didn’t bother to lower myself and respond, but I’m sure you are much more pleasant than you made out in that vitriolic posting. :rolleyes:

You are very quick to insult, with little evidence to base your assessment on.

1 My uncle is well informed;
2 He doesn’t play golf: despite his seniority he’s too busy (a lack of physicians in his specialisation (paediatric cardiology), male or female);
3 He’s not at all small minded, nor bigoted;
4 He often tries to wind me up, but failed on this occasion (although succeeded with you). He was making the point that, like the profession I’m leaving, I’m about to enter a male dominated arena, where I should expect no credit just for being female;
5 I won’t defend my own intelligence, too many are questioning it as I make this career change despite being only of a very few females at my level in my field, with excellent prospects.

The discussion is about pilots, not medicine, and why females are under represented. Rather than flaming people here, you could contribute intelligently by striking a parallel with your own medical field. Despite the medical schools graduating more women than men, there are relatively few female surgeons. Why is that, and are there any parallels with commercial flying?

So stop climbing the walls and contribute something positive to this discussion. ;)

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The best incentive I had to learn to fly was my mother trying to stop me!

Now I'm an instructor I'd say that less than 5% of our students are female, and I think the reason is simply this, that most females simply aren't interested in it. I doubt that proportion will ever increase.

A girl who is determined to be a pilot, or any other career for that matter, isn't going to be put off by peer pressure, lack of parental support or incompetent careers advisors. She will have the dedication, will and personality to succeed, and will just get on with it. This has been the case in aviation since Amy, Amelia, Beryl and co, and still is today, and I don't think it will ever change.

In that way we are no different to the boys with the same aspirations, there are just less of us.

[femalesurgeon]

Totally agree with Charlie Foxtrot, some things appeal more to one group than another, forcing people does not help.

Sally, my response obviously lit your fire aswell.

I agree the forum is about pilots but you quoted medicine. I was just correcting your ill informed views.

YOu chose to quote female doctors lack of dedication and place it in a forum which are not aware of the facts. It does not assist female anythings when the general public believe that they only got to their position by passing inferior exams, being let through for PC correctness and that they are not as good as the blokes.

YOu only have to sit down the back of any aircraft and when a female pilots voice comes over the PA, the look on the male SLC faces is a picture, the comments they also make are exactly what your uncle implied!!!

As to your uncle, his comments are small minded and bigoted. I have heard them frequently in my career and from medics they are rarely said in jest. That he thinks that female docs expect dispensation for their gender shows how far off the mark he is.

As to why there are so few female surgeons, it takes 18-20 yrs to train a surgeon! So as far as sex equality goes we are unfortunately still in the 1980s. The last sexist medical school admission policy was not removed till 1986, so until the cycle completes about another 10 times we may not see a difference.

Ignorant comments like those your uncle make, do not make anyones job easier.

I am for equality and not positive discrimination, as that just gives men like your uncle the right to justifiable say what he did.

[scroggs]

Calm down, ladies, please :) There are more than enough problems to deal with within aviation (which is the point of this site, if not this forum), without trying to solve medicine's problems as well!

I would appreciate it if we could keep the discussion to the subject of female airline pilots. While there may be some parallels in the medical world, we risk being sidetracked by your disagreement - and that does nothing useful for our discussion here.

Thanks. Seconds out, round 4.....

[sally at pprune]

OK, but only if you come up with a good medic joke Scroggs :p

[mike.oriordan]

What bizarre forum. I have been flying helicopters for the Navy for nearly 20 years and only recently had the novel experinece of flying with female "observers" (navigators). I think their job is far more demanding than mine and I have been particularly impressed with their cool and spare mental capacity particularly when under pressure (chop ride). Sadly one or two didn't make it, but then so have many men before them.

I belive very much that Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Frankly I would rather have a Martian and a Venutian in a cockpit when it was all going horribly wrong then two from the same planet. CRM is considerably better and mission is accomplished with the same degree of panash as it ever was - perhaps more.

Come on girls lets see more of you in the front seat.:p

[exfi]

this is a bit second hand so don’t flame me.

i know that lots os people who train as pilots have done no aptitude testing, but early flying lessons might have the same effect cause if you don’t do very well you probably wont want a job like flying

but i understand that about half the guys who take the raf aptitude tests pass but only 10% of the girls do. i think the gapan tests are the same ones. the girls who pass are just as good as the guys – just our skills for things are different so there are fewer girls with what it takes to succeed as pilots than guys.

the obvious question is their bias in the tests? youll have to ask the raf that but the guy who told me this said that the raf have been trying to increase the numbers of girls they recruit for ages and have tried altering the tests and lowering the pass mark for girls and anything else but come up with the same answer all the time.

[distaff_beancounter]

I am probably wading into a subject that I know nothing about, as I have never done any sort of aptitude test for flying.

Rather than assert that such tests are biased in favour of men, can anyone shed any light on the relative weighting of skills, in such tests.

For instance, it is claimed that the average man (whatever average is) has better hand-eye coordination, & spatial awareness, than the average woman.

On the other hand, the average women is supposedly better at multi-tasking, inter-personal skills & communication.

I can appreciate that the RAF may well require more of the "male" characteristics, in selecting trainees for fast jets.

The GAPAN tests are presuambly designed mainly for selecting trainees for airlines & GA. Has due weight been given to the "female" skills, that may well be of more relevance for these jobs? Or, are the GAPAN tests still biased towards RAF skills requirements?

[scroggs]

The aptitude tests used by the RAF, GAPAN and others are entirely devoted to assessing the motor skills and spatial awareness abilities of a candidate. These skills are the fundamental requirements of a pilot, and can't be 'traded off' against other skills or abilities, no matter how useful. At the end of the day, you still have to be able find your destination airfield when your navaids have packed in, to get your aeroplane on the ground with half the engines out, on a sh*tty night in the rain and howling crosswind, while remaining aware of the relative positions of traffic in your vicinity. This is not negotiable.

It's not just a 'claim', it has been demonstrated over many years of testing that, in general, males are better at these skills than females. That doesn't mean that no women have them, or that the most talented women aren't at least as talented as the best men. But it does mean that you are going to struggle when you aim for equal numbers, as you would have to attract a far greater proportion of the existing suitably-able women than men. It's unlikely to happen.

Remember, the fundamental tenet should be 'equality of opportunity'. Any person, regardless of race, gender or whatever, should have the chance to qualify in any trade, but some trades have demands that cannot be waived for the benefit of political correctness. Within the limits of current technology, the need to have the aptitude to fly is as basic as the need for a pilot to be able to see and hear. It's a shame that more wannabes of either sex don't get themselves tested before potentially wasting huge amounts of money!

[distaff_beancounter]

Scroggs , thanks for the prompt reply, which answered my question completely.

As a woman, I am very much against moving the goal posts for females, just to ensure that a required "quota" of women, get admitted to any career or organisation.

On the other hand, in your scenario of "a sh*tty night...", female skills such as multi-tasking, might well be useful, so long as the woman had the rest of the "male" skills, required to handle that situation.

[exfi]

i should have added that there are lots of bits of the tests and in some parts women do better than men & in some the men score best - probably as you say DBC, women do better at those with multi-taskin etc

its the final overall score made up of the tests where women often fail. i dont know but i imagine that lots of time and money has been spent validating the tests as scroggs said they've been going a long time

so even if there were equal numbers of men and women starting out (which i doubt there are) there would be much fewer women getting as far as a commercial school either being put off by aptitude testing or because they find it tough and dont enjoy flying. from that there would be an apparant male dominence and lack of female role models, making it less likely that so many women would be attracted - a vicious circle. i dont know but it seems a plausable reason for the lack of women in the profession.

the trouble is that all the successful women will not identify with these problems and will dismiss this argument as it does not reflect their own experience.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Just thought I'd share ten years of instructing experience...on average, I've found that girls (including me!) take nearly twice as long to go solo as the boys. Often the reason for this is lack of self esteem and belief that they CAN land an aeroplane on their own, manifested in reluctance to make command decisions and constantly looking for approval and confirmation that they are doing the right thing; trying too hard and getting in a muddle, and giving up too easily. These are typical "girl" things, not just in aviation; but a few of the boys have these problems too.

But once the girls have overcome these self-doubts they often outstrip the boys in multi tasking under pressure, preparation, communication and attention to detail. Important skills for a professional pilot.

In general, when it comes to mistakes in the early stages, the girls make silly ones but the boys are more likely to make potentially dangerous ones, and boys are more unpredictable in the way they react to simulated emergency situations. But there is no doubt that the boys often have the advantage in motor skills.

Life would be boring if we were all the same :)

[Whirlybird]

Why so few girls?

Because despite what many people think, prejudice is alive and well in aviation to a huge extent. And I should know. I was over 40 when I started flying; I'd travelled the world, done all sorts of things, and it wasn't a second career for me - must have been about the sixth. And I coudn't believe the way things were. OK, for those who don't realise, let me take you through it.

You're female, you walk into a flying school. About the first thing you notice is that there are so few other women there, if any. Someone asks you what you want, and is really really surprised that you say you want to learn to fly.

You start your PPL. You're probably the only woman on the course. Even if you're not underconfident and untechnically minded, everyone expects you to be. You mention that you're thinking of going commercial; everyone is astounded. In my case I thought is was because of my age - but no, it was because I was female; men older than me thought of a career change, and no-one turned a hair. Everyone wonders where on earth you got the money. Was it from your parents, or your husband? Because you can't possibly have earned it all yourself; women don't get those sort of jobs do they?

You start to hourbuild. You take male passengers with you to other airfields. Everyone assumes your passenger is the pilot. You get comments such as "Oh, do you really fly" so often that they become normal. If you and a male friend share flying, everyone assumes the good landings were his, and the bad ones yours.

You go to CPL/ATPL groundschool. You're still the only female on most courses. If you've got this far, you probably don't care by now. In fact, by now everyone's telling you how wonderful you are, for doing the same things the guys are doing. You're not wonderful, you think, just normal. You just happen to have different bumps and appendages. And maybe slightly different abilities, but hey, flying isn't that difficult; most people who want to do it can, so who cares.

Why so few girls? Because, in summary, things haven't changed much in the nearly 100 years since since the Wright brothers first took to the air. And who in their right mind wants to put up with all that? Most of the things I've mentioned above happened to me; the ones that didn't happened to friends of mine. And please, don't give me that crap about women looking after the kids; when will everyone, including the government, realise that kids are the responsibility of BOTH parents.

I used to think I'd been born 20 years or so too early. Now I think maybe it was more like 200 years. Or maybe I'm still being hopeful. Maybe things will never change.

[stargazer02]

Sally
you sound as if you are Daddys girl but trying to show us that you have something to prove....
Who cares whether you are a guy or a girl as long as you can do the job.....:D :D :cool: :p

[sally at pprune]

Its extraordinary how, on an anonymous forum like this, otherwise normal people jump to conclusions about people based on little or no evidence and resort to personal comment about people they do not know. There must be an analogy with the psychology of road rage; isolated from social norms by the metal and glass cocoon, or in this case the PC and telephone line.

Stargazer, you flatter yourself. The only person I have to prove anything to is myself. Although, as Scroggs describes above its impossible to not to be influenced by the enthusiasm for flying of a parent. Does that make him a Daddy’s boy?

You know what’s really sad about this thread? It’s absolutely clear that prejudice is endemic in the piloting profession. And not just gender prejudice, although I don’t want to open that debate. It doesn’t take much reading of passionate contributions from Whirlybird and others here, and on other treads, to realise that these are not wilting lilies, stroppy feminists or otherwise PC motivated; they are (or were) just wannabes who would like to be treated just like everyone else. Even behind the forums’ anonymity, I doubt we’re going to get contributions from the prejudiced. I suspect that the (hopefully) majority are pretty ashamed to be associated with the views of those described in Whirlybird’s post. And this from a profession that is so proud of its progress in team-working/CRM and all that.

[redsnail]

Ignore the nae sayers and be the best you can be. Then no one can complain.
Go for it 100% but don't forget to have fun. Life is too bloody short not to.
Any way, if any one gives me gip, I just go for a ride on my Ducati. :D

[Whirlybird]

Yeah, Sal, you got it. That's how it is. People will tell you to get used to it. Sometimes what they mean is that they'd rather you kept quiet about it. Well, you can if you like; nothing wrong with that. But I won't shut up just because people would like it better if I did; I speak as I find it. And a lot of people don't like me for it, but that's tough.

But let's be fair, not everyone's like that. And it's more the general public and near the beginning; the further you get, the less prejudice. Much much less in commercial aviation. Or so I've found; I don't know really yet, and as a helicopter pilot (mainly) I don't know about the airlines.

To add to what I said earlier, there are other reasons why there are "so few girls". Certainly when I was growing up it wouldn't have been something you even considered, and I suspect that hasn't changed much over the years. You have to consider it as a possibility. Even when I first went into a flying school, the idea of being a commercial pilot just didn't occur to me. I think I sort of felt like a young American female helicopter pilot I know, who said : "When I went for my demo ride (trial lesson) I thought only Gods and Superpeople became helicopter pilots. I said: 'You mean I can do this, ME?' "

But the longer I fly, the more I wonder if it isn't that women in our society are conditioned to think of others all the time, rather than what THEY want. Let's face it, you've got to be single minded to the point of absolute selfishness to get the dosh and do all the work and jump through all the hoops to be a commerciall pilot. Men are expected to do that sort of thing, and admired and encouraged for it. Women aren't.

So there you have it, as I see it - not even knowing the possibility, prejudice from the start, and no support. Jeez, it's pretty surprising that even 2% of commercial pilots are female, not that there aren't more.

But never mind; your aircraft doesn't care that you're female. :)

[femalesurgeon]

Sally,

You are making assumptions,

I have never said I was normal !!

:rolleyes: :p

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Whirly, I'm sorry to hear that you have experiencd prejudice. Maybe it's a helicopter thing. I must say I have rarely heard one of us girls on the radio in a chopper. On the rare occasions I treat myself to a half hour jolly in an R22 I'm too busy grinning from ear to ear to notice these things!

I've never noticed prejudice in fixed wing, but then I was used to being in a "male" environment, the only girl in a boys school, and a career in farming where I was the only female farm manager in the district made me used to being among the boys and just getting on with it with a good sense of humour; and later giving as good as I got when the comments about the sky not being pink etc came along.
The only "girl" problem I had when learning to fly was occasional harrassment from dirty old men (not exclusive to aviation) calling themselves "instructors", who I refused to fly with again, and as an instructor the occasional randy male student. (and once a randy female student!!) The wedding ring and large Action Man lookalike husband has been a big deterrent to these types I must admit, but I managed OK before my lovely hubby came along.

It's only natural that some of the older men in the industry think of girls as fit only to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, as they may have had those role models in their youth. (especially here in Aus) Thankfully both them and those role models are a rare and decreasing breed these days.

Despite the achievements of female pilots over the years, we are still seen by the ill informed as pioneers. I dislike the "you've done so well - for a girl" comments as much as anyone, but just take them in context, often the person who says it realises how stupid and patronising it sounds straight after they've said it without having it pointed out to them.

Anyway Whirly it sounds like you've done really well despite the prejudice. What a clever girl you are!;) ;):mad:

[Whirlybird]

Jeez, thanks Charlie Foxtrot India :rolleyes: :D

I'm gonna get flamed here for sure, but I think it's British thing. I haven't been to Oz, but I spent three weeks in April flying in the US, and it's so so different there. So many more people fly, for a start. And although female pilots are still a minority, it's no big deal. Nobody treated me as anything other than completely normal - just another pilot. It was wonderful! Over here the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association) are treated by many male pilots as a joke; in the US the Whirly-Girls (International but US based female helicopter pilots) get a huge amount of male support and are admired. In the UK it happens with f/w too; I started off with f/w, and I know loads of women who fly who'll mainly say the same sort of thing. So no, it's not just me. And some things you can hardly help noticing, like when a (female) friend and I won the "Dawn to Dusk" flying competition last year, and a jealous competitor asked one of the judges if he'd given it to us because we were female. :confused: The judge was as annoyed at being accused of bias as we were at the assumption that it couldn't be because we were good. But that's how it is here. And yeah, I'm used to it, but I'm not gonna pretend I like it or that it doesn't matter - I don't like it and it DEFINITELY DOES MATTER!!!!!

[Little Miss]

As a lady i feel compelled to write.
looking through this post I realise my story is quite similar to many of the girls.
I wanted to be a pilot, my school thought that was a silly idea many an hour spent in the careers office trying to persuade me that girls didn t fly jets. I had a fight on my hands and i can say they made me more detemined to do it.
My dad is a pilot and although he originally didn t htink girls should fly he soon changed his mind when his little girl said she wanted to do it.

I was lucky I went to training school and never once felt like I shouldn t be there by my course. It wasn t until I d nearly finished that I got negative comments by new trainees. Mainly male sponsered saying I shouldn t do it. All I was going to do is fly for a few years, marry get pregnant and then leave. I should "get out the way and let the men do their job" This only made me more determined again.

I found that the women tended to get a first time IR pass I don t know why but I m assuming like me they had to prove they were good. When I passed I was told I must give good h**d, as thats the only way I d pass. One of my instructors said that you can t be one of the lads you have to be one of the best.

I think the reason less women do it is through many reasons. One being, at my school it wasn t a career option and there was shock at the mention of it. Two is that it doesn t appeal to alot of girls and Three Top Gun didn t have female pilots in it. Since I ve got my CPL and IR i had many of my friends and girls at my old school become interested in the idea. I added another option at my old schools career list and proved you don t have to be super clever to do.

[Spit15]

That's a complete fallacy, ask any of the BA cadet-ers. And indeed if you know anyone in BA just ask them if they have noticed a trend in the last few years. Their equal opportunities are "more equal" if you are a "Miss Pilotess".

Whatever happened to ..."..best person for the job..."!

[Red Snake]

I learnt to fly in the U.S. & worked there for several years before coming to the UK. As whirlybird says, over there it's no big deal, even if you are still in a minority. Within the industry in the UK, apart from the occassional dirty old man, I've never experienced any real problems and am treated just as another pilot.

The biggest hang up in the UK is outside the industry. When getting car insurance, mortgage application or whatever:

"What's your occupation?"
"Pilot"
"What?"
"Airline Pilot"
"I beg your pardon?"
"I said "pilot""
"No, not your husband's occupation, what's your job?"
etc. etc.

And getting introduced to anyone at a party or wherever, expect to get "she's an airline pilot" permanently added to your name.

[Whirlybird]

So few girls - where are you looking?

At the CAA figures, that's where. 2% of commercial pilots are female.

Does so-called positive discrimination happen? I've no idea. But I DO know that passed over males yell it whenever women beat them, as for instance in my Dawn to Dusk win mentioned a few posts back.

Could it, just conceivably, be that the girlies, having got there against all the odds, are actually...better?

[Red Snake]

Sounds about right. We're about 15 girls out of approaching 700 pilots (BACX).

Are we better? Definately! And we probably have more fun too - as 98% of the whining and complaining you read on these forums must come from the men!

[McD]

Red Snake,

I had to smile when I read your post, because like you, I've received the most silly comments from people outside the industry. The comments you mentioned were spot-on!

At an airshow in 1988, I was standing next to the T-38 I'd brought in, answering questions about the aircraft, as one does at airshows. Finally most people had moved on, and there was one remaining man to whom I was speaking. Just then, a sweet little old lady came up and said to me (wearing my USAF flight suit, which had a T-38 patch/badge on it), "Oh honey, you look so cute in your little outfit ... now do you know where I could find the pilot for this aircraft?"

And just a few days ago, in an elevator at a layover hotel, an older man saw me in uniform (w/hat, nav kitbag, etc) and said, "My goodness, with all those stripes, you must be the purser!"

:eek: :rolleyes: :D

Seriously, though, I think a lot of you have hit the nail on the head when you mention role models and historical school, social, or industry constraints. 30+ years ago (when I was in my formative "what do I want to be when I grow up" years), a woman simply could not become an airline pilot, because the career field wasn't open to them. If you were a girl and wanted to fly on an airline when you grew up, you had one option: stewardess/hostie.

Thankfully for me, the career field opened to women very shortly after that here in the states, not only for airlines, but also for the USAF. Women have been able to pursue a wide range of professional aviation careers for 25-30 years here. Most if not all of my fellow professional aviators view and treat women pilots as nothing more or less than fellow pilots -- completely no big deal at all as long as the work is done properly by whomever (male or female) is doing the work.

However, some people (most of whom are not in this industry) "don't get out much" when it comes to aviation, and are therefore are still stuck in an old mentality. The problem is this: these people are mothers, fathers, grandparents, teachers, and other people who may have significant influence on the current generation. So, it is no wonder that some girls growing up now are told by people who they love and trust that "you could never do that, it's not a career for girls".

When a girl or boy hears that enough times, they may very well believe it after a while. So, the cycle continues, but it will probably diminish as time goes on and people become more educated.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Whirly, the first five years of my flying career were spent in the Channel Islands, and I never had any discrimination or prejudice there. The most annoying thing I have had to listen to, from boys and girls, when I came out here to Aus was "so you're another pom come to steal our jobs" (never mind that I employ several Aussies!) the racial prejudice was incredible, but being very thick skinned, or perhaps just stupid, I just got on with it once again, and it never affected my career significantly.
Those that whinge about girls, or poms or whatever are "rationalising" why they are unable to do as well as we have. It says a lot more about them than it does about us. "She must have bonked the chief pilot" is a classic example of sour grapes, and indicative of the attitude that makes them unemployable.
HA!

Was the avenue of being an airline pilot ever really closed? Or was it becuase the airlines tended to employ former RAF pilots who were of course male? During WW2 women played a very important role as pilots in the ATA, and had already proved themselves time and time again. Surely not all of them slid into oblivion after the war? Anyone know?

[Pandora]

Spit15,

I am a female BA CEP. So I'll ask myself 'have I noticed a trend over the last few years?' Well Pandora, I have noticed that there has been no drop off in the numbers of wannabe ATPL holders who still don't seem to be able to break into their first flying job bitching about positive discrimination.

I finished my training and joined BA as a line pilot about 2 and a half years ago. I was on what was known at the time as the girly course because there were a few girls in our class of 18. One of the girls on the course ahead of me was the 100th female pilot employed by BA (it was in the papers, it must be true). So that makes me about the 105th. I believe there are about another 10-15 behind me, plus however many came along with the CFE joiners. So my guess is no more than 150 female pilots on a list of 3800 pilots. So that is less than 4%. Now I know that women just aren't as mathematically adept as men but if this is indicative of a trend of positive discrimination I will eat my hat. Granted the proportion of female pilots in BA is double the national average but 4% is still hardly something to get excited about.

So Spit15, whatever did happen to best person for the job? Well I happen to think that the people I trained with ere the best people for the job. And out of the 40000 people who applied for 216 cadet places that year there may well have been some who didn't perform well on the day, or who were good enough but din't shine, and some of them work with me now at BA having taken a longer route. There were plenty of women who weren't up to it. The women who made it through the interview and onto the course are all flying now for BA, which is more than can be said for some of the men. And none of them have had children and stopped working. I know a lot of mothers who fly for BA and a lot of fathers, and due to the flexible nature of the job it is actually easier to come back part time to flying than it is to amny office based jobs.

[Whirlybird]

Charlie Foxtrot India,

The airlines were indeed closed to women after the war. I have a couple of autobiographies written by former ATA pilots, and I've met some through the BWPA. After the war they were told, it seems, that the public wasn't ready to accept women pilots. I believe at least some of the airlines didn't accept women until after the Sex Discrimination Act was made law, in 1976 (I recall getting a copy of the Act and telling anyone who'd listen that it would change the world - it did, not not enough). At least some of the ATA pilots kept on flying as and when and where they could. Ann Welch is wellknown in the UK, has written numerous aviation books, and always been involved in flying. I'm not sure if she ever flew for the airlines or not. Jackie Moggridge presented awards for the BWPA a couple of years ago; I managed to get hold of her out-of-print autobiography, and she's ferried Spitfires to Burma, among other things. Some of them wangled interviews by just putting their initials on the application - Jackie had a story of being desperately wanted on the strength of her CV, but rejected when they found she was female. It was tough back then, and it has indeed improved of course.

As to your not encountering any prejudice, as others have pointed out, it's mainly from those outside the industry that it happens. I reckon it's also when training, and among flying instructors - but they're often hour builders and in a sense maybe count as outside the industry in the way I mean it at this moment. I do think it's probably rare in professional aviation. But I'm not really in a position to know. If you never encountered it anywhere, you were lucky. As I said, I was basing my first post on a number of women's experiences, not just my own. So, it may not be universal. But it's very common.

[McD]

Charlie Foxtrot India

I can try to answer your question regarding women WWII pilots, at least from the Yank side of the pond.

I teamed up with a WASP (Women Air Service Pilot) in the early 90s for some "then-and-now" type educational presentations, and I learned many things from her. If I remember correctly, after WWII, nearly all the women pilots returned to non-flying places in society because there was extremely little opportunity for them in any sort of flying job. There were exceptions: Jacqueline Cochrane was extremely successful, setting world records in speed and altitude as a test pilot in the 1950s and 1960s. Again, though, cases like hers were extremely rare exceptions. A woman might manage to get a short-term post-war aircraft delivery job, but that was it. Airlines were still not hiring women as pilots.

I've just sent an e-mail to my WASP friend to ask her about the post-war flying opportunities of her colleagues, and I'll let you know what she says, and if she has any additional info regarding her international counterparts.

(Edited because I see that Whirlybird has provided the UK info you were looking for.)

[femalesurgeon]

Looking at recent intakes on some of the cadet schemes, you have to say that there is positive discrimination.


12 places; 2000 + applicants, 20 women and 3 places given to women.
10 places; 1200+, 10 women, 3 places


These numbers do not add up. You then hear management talk of the women quota and you know, it is happening.

Positive discrimination helps no one and only hinders those who would have got there on theri own merits. It is worse than sexism.

[whirlyflyer]

I think Whirlybird is right, women walk into most flight schools or FBOs and see a bunch of men standing around.

I personally sought out a flight school that had a female chief pilot. That was not easy to find, but it can be done (and only a little bit of flag waving).

Only 5% of the pilots in the US are women, but that number should rise as time goes by. Don't lose faith, it will get better!

[haaron]

femalesurgeon
Maybe a higher ratio of girls got in because they were 'better' candidates?! I know I always try that much harder, study that much more, practice on FS2002 longer than the guys because I don't want anyone to ever be able to say 'she can't do it cause she's a girl'...
But, I agree - nowadays jobs should be given the the most suitable candidate regardless of x,y,z.

[Seriph]

The stats from female surgeon say’s it all. When you gals beat the guys in ‘right hemisphere’ pursuits then you won’t need positive discrimination. By the way, go to a go cart track on a Sunday and see how many girls there are then try the pony club and see how many boys and then tell us we are equal.

[Pandora]

Seriph,

I am a bit of a horsey girl myself, and agree that there are always lots more girls than boys at pony shows. So how does that explain that the number of men on most national equestrian teams far outweighs the women, and how many famous women jockeys can you name? There can only be one of 2 explanations for this. 1; there is a lot of positive discrimination towards the boys. 2; although there are fewer boys at the start of their career they are genuinely better thant the girls around them, and so progress farther.
I can't think of any other reason or excuse. To say there is positive.......Actually I need to stop it right there. Otherwise someone might point out that Ronnie Massarella (manager of the British showjumping team) has decreed that there will never be a woman on the team for as long as he is manager.
Whether there is positive discrimination or not towards men in equestrianism there would be an absolute outcry if it was suggested by a woman. I do also think that although fewer boys start out horse riding the ones at the top are there because they are genuinely the best and have had to struggle to prove themselves.
There is plenty of evidence that women who become pilots are very good and that they had to struggle to get where they are. Your choice of analogy is not a good one.

Female surgeon,

where did your stats come from? Mine came from the CAA and BA's employment figures and don't seem to reflect yours at all. Why are you trying to undermine the efforts of other women on this site? Are you hopeful that a bit of positive discrimination will help you? Well it won't. You have to be good enough. And if you aren't interested in becoming a pilot, go and hang around medic websites.

[Whirlybird]

Hmmm... perhaps those who are claiming they've never encountered any prejudice would like to read Seriph 's post again - I have no comment to make on it; I can't be bothered.

If less women succeed than is expected, we're told we can't make it; if it's more we're told there's positive discrimination.

Talk about damned if you do and damned if you don't. :confused:

[McD]

Of course Whirly, there's also that old saying,

"Only care about the opinions of educated, reasonable, and sensible people.... " ;)

[femalesurgeon]

Pandora, my stats come from the flight school concerned and from the mouths of the instructors teaching.

Also, two of the women present on merit, were more than a little peeved that some of their fellow gender were not keeping up their end and letting the side down. Also seeing some of the self paying people who had not got on the scheme and were in the same classes, beating them hands down, all gives fuel to the arguments of positive discrimination.

As for right to be on this forum, it is a free forum, with no pre requisites to join. I am as entitled as the next person to read, comment and correct the slander that has been posted about my own profession.
I have been a Pprune watcher since 1996 and as you can see from my rego date only bothered to post on this forum topic. I was incensed by the slander that was put my way by a fellow female, I felt the need to comment. If it had come from a bloke I would have ignored it.

As to can I fly, yes, so even by your criteria I am allowed an opinion. As to do I want to be a commercial airline pilot and work for a company, no, but not for reasons that are any of your business

Flying is fun and relaxation to me, allowing me time out.

I will comment on what I like, when I like and how I like!!!

[Whirlybird]

Positive discrimination, if it happens, is of course a form of sexism.

I've just yet to see any proof that it happens. Unequal numbers are not proof. People doing better or worse than expected later on is not proof - happens all the time. People saying it happens is not proof - unless they are the people who instigated it.

So I'm still unconvinced.

[scroggs]

Pandora and femalesurgeon,

this is a worthwhile discussion which is getting quite a wide readership, in large part due to your contributions. Please don't trivialise it either by cheap shots or by dragging the topic away from aviation.

The reader should be in no doubts about who the idiots are in this thread; please don't lower yourselves to that level!

[femalesurgeon]

My apologies Scroggs.
I have been trying, but other people do seem to want to bring other careers into the equation!!

There does appear to be an impression amongst some of the contributors, that unless you are flying fulltime you are not as commited and not allowed a view on the subject, yet it has been shown on this forum, that sexism is experienced from the minute you walk through the aero club door.

If it is as bad as some people intimate in the commercial sector, one questions why people put up with it. I walked away from one aero club, whilst learning for exactly that kind of atmosphere, I took my custom and my hard earned cash somewhere where it was appreciated. I realise this is harder to do when pay and recruitment are involved but from my friends even we could list some compaines that are more enlightened than others.

I respect all fellow pilots regardless of their sex or standard of licence, no one is better than the other.

[Seriph]

The biggest crime of course is not to be PC. If one shouts 'But the King has no clothes' you are asking for torrents of abuse. I am not suggesting that women are inferior, indeed in most respects I consider them the superior sex. However, they are different, and the problem is that some will not accept this. If males reign supreme as racing drivers, jockeys, riders, pilots, chefs etc, etc, then there is presumably a reason and to seek excuses by accusing males of discrimination is absurd. There have been many examples of positive discrimination to 'right ' this 'wrong'. In our profession for example the attempt by BA to recruit more female pilots through advertising in female and minority magazines etc. I have personal experience of females with no interest or aptitude for aviation being offered training by BA in preference to males. Indeed being female was and possibly still is a huge advantage, the drop out rate though is very high. Stop making excuses Pandora, many females have excelled in riding, you only have to be good enough to beat the men.

Forgot to add, in my company about 3% female pilots, we love them dearly they are SO cute, sorry could'nt resist. There are about 400 plus female cabin crew about 80%. On an empty sector invite them to the flight deck for T/O or Ldg none are ever interested.

[Whirlybird]

Seriph,

I think everyone here would agree that men and women are different. ;) ;)

OK, I couldn't resist that, but I'll be serious now. I don't know how you can state that women are either superior or inferior. In all tests of any kind of ability, the results show what are known as "overlapping populations". To take a very basic example, height. On the whole men are taller than women, but there is a range over which you will find both men and women, and some women are taller than some men. The same occurs for strength, spatial ability, whatever. So, we need to talk about individuals here. It MAY be that a majority of women would not be interested in aviation. It MAY even be that a lot of them would be no good at it. But no-one will ever know that, while we have the kind of social influences and prejudice that so many of us have experienced. Advertising in female and minority magazines may simply redress the balance, by showing women and other minorities than it is POSSIBLE for them to be pilots. Of course, if they're being accepted over other applicants who are better, then that is wrong, and counter productive in all ways. As I said, I'm still unconvinced that it happens, but I'm not an airline pilot so I don't actually know. Way back when I was a child (yes, I am that old) there were very few women drivers, and similar arguments were trotted out on a regular basis; now women drivers are no big deal (alright guys, we don't want to hear any of the tired jokes about this!)

Seriph, PC has nothing to do with it. But your posts give the impression of you being extremely patronising to women. If I'm wrong about that, well, that's the problem with the written word; it can be imprecise.

[Skylark]

Nice incisions.. Femalesurgeon.. :D

This whole thread rendered me inarticulate for a while :eek:

Now there's nothing incorrect about posters' quoting personal experience, or even if they have no experience at all..the post then stands on its own merits. Nothing incorrect about the term "In my humble opinion".

However, in discussing the female/male differences the sourcing to "authoritative" references - either literature or individuals - is inevitably going to attract critical comment from others who do not recognise a source as been credidble, or sees the source as a misquote or taken out of context. Particularly this thread where there is sound psychological and sociobiological research that partially refutes and in some totally refutes many of the posters' sources.

Just the same the topic is a relevant and valid discussion.. in my humble opinion.
:cool:

[femalesurgeon]

I also could not claim them as my own opinion, they were from other people, I found them interesting and relevant to this discussion, but never claimed them as a substantial source.

When fellow female pilots are dissing their own kind, it adds substance to the male attitudes put forward by Seriph.

There are undoubtedly poor male pilots and poor female pilots, unfortunately, when the pot of one is small, people will always remember the bad not the good. Thus giving the dominant majority the chance to moan about all the bad female pilots they remember, just try and get them to praise a female pilot without managing to add, but Joe Bloggs is better and not bad for a girl!!


I can always remember my crap landings but the ones I greased on, soon fade into the past

[AerBabe]

I've come in on this rather late, so will probably be repeating a lot of what has already been said, however, I would like to add my personal perspective!

I'm not a professional pilot, I'm a low hour PPL, but I've still enough experience to say that aviation seems to have a much higher degree of sexism than a lot of other male-dominated areas that I've worked/played in.

Most of my time is spent in a microbiology laboratory, where there are 2:1 men to women. Some of my spare time is spent playing saxophone in a semi-professional band - again 2:1 men to women. Another portion of my spare time is spent walking up mountains, wild camping half way up, and generally getting wet and dirty (no comments please!!) All these would traditionally be seen as male-orientated, but I've never experienced any discrimination, either negative or positive. ...although it's only recently that manufacturers of outdoor clothing have acknowledged that some of us have hips and breasts :rolleyes:

It came as a complete shock when I decided to learn to fly, and experienced extreme reactions from men. Most of my flying group treat me as just another PPL. There was the usual assumption that my parents must be paying, but that was because I am still at university, not because I'm female. However, there is one member of my club who refused to even acknowledge my presence in the club house for the first year. Only once, when I was a student PPL, did someone ask whether I was waiting for my husband.

On the other side there were the airport employees who would just gawp at me. I remember taxiing away from the apron one day, and three men stood at the edge, arms folded across their chests, watching me as I passed. I couldn't resist giving them a quick wave.

Like Whirlybird I've had people assume my male passenger was the pilot. Just a few weeks ago I went for fuel, and my friend was asked how much he wanted.

Personally I think there's nothing wrong with aviation having fewer women in it... I would just like to be treated a little more normally! :)

[exfi]

heres (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671579592/qid=1031517758/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/026-2567468-9342038) a great book for you :D

[Seriph]

Come of it Aerbabe, your experience is not typical. Women in aviation are not new, it is only the rise of feminism that now chooses to blame men and 'sexist' attitudes for their failure to compete. After all, in the final analysis, if the girls were that much better surely the positions would be reversed and the men would be shouting unfair! As has been pointed out though, you are in a minority, the majority of women (95%) are not interested in flying, engineering, fire fighting, mining, driving etc, etc, etc. They have other priorities, in the main far more important. AND THAT IS NOT BEING PATRONISING. We will judge by achievement and results.

[sally at pprune]

Seriph

I guess there is a high probability that you are just trying to wind people up and, therefore, are best ignored. At the risk of falling for your bait, how the hell would you know whether AerBabe's experience in aviation is typical or not? There seems substantial evidence from many other (qualified) posters just on this thread to back up her claims.

Most of us who persist despite such attitudes are thick skinned (or thick) enough to cope with the wallies that express them. But one has to ask, "why the hell should we have to?" and "how many others have been put off by the sort of reactions that AerBabe and Whirlybird, to name but two, have endured."

There are other environments, believe me, where men are in the majority and some cannot cope with the challenge to their egos that competition from women brings. There are also a few women who use the label of discrimination to excuse themselves. But I fail to see any justification for institutionalised discrimination or so called "positive" discrimination.

There's something small about men with those attitues: small between the ears and/or small between the legs. :cool:

[scroggs]

OK, this topic has gone way beyond the 'Wannabes' remit, so I'm going to transfer it to 'Aircrew Notices', where you're all welcome to carry on.

[Whirlybird]

Seriph,

Point of information - Aerbabe's experiences ARE typical. How do I know? They not only mirror my experiences; they are similar to a large number of women pilots who I know through the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association). Plus the fact that a female friend of mine, a flying instructor with over 20 years instructing experience, tends to put it even more strongly than either of us have. How would YOU know if it's typical or not?

Aerbabe never mentioned a failure to compete. She said she would like to be treated normally, as I would.

In the past women were barred from jobs in firefighting, flying, mining, driving, and the like. Now they are not. It will take time before all of them realise that; social attitudes always lag behind legislation. Only then will we know if many of them want to do such things. But whether many do or not, they should have the OPPORTUNITY, as individuals, to try and prove their ability to do the job, if they want to.

Anyway, this topic was "Why so few girls"? Some of us are stating what we perceive as the reasons, from our own experiences, typical or otherwise. So what is it about us doing that which bothers you?

[Carruthers]

Come of it girls, you've had 30 yrs plus of positive discrimination and OPPORTUNITY but are still pushing the same old excuses. Give it a rest.

[AerBabe]

I would be interested to know how many of you guys have flown in a light a/c with a female captain....

[flower]

I have been in the aviation industry for 14 years ,the last 11 as an ATCO. When I first started there were still some dinosaurs around who objected strongly to women working in "their domain". Thankfully they have in the main retired, and I have personally found little or no discrimination.
There are however women around who discredit the vast majority of us who go to work and do the best possible job we can. They play the system for all it is worth.
If you want the career and the "prestige" that goes with it you have to play ball. Except for maternity leave you should never expect to be treated differently.
I am a girly girl, always will be, but I find that in recent years it has been other women who have let us down.

controversial maybe , buts thats my experience
Flower

[Whirlybird]

flower,

Controversial has nothing to do with it; you speak as you find it, as all of us have.

BUT...

How can other women discredit you or let you down? Why should every woman feel she is a representative of half the human race? If a man behaves badly, he is considered as an individual; if a woman does so it is thought to reflect on all other women.

And until that changes, don't waste time trying to convince me that we are anywhere remotely approaching equality.

[Seriph]

At last a voice of reason, thankyou flower. AerBabe, a trip in a light aircraft with a female captain heh. Hmmmmmm now your talking sweetie, lots of gold braid and boots I hope, corrrrrrrr, wonder if FHM have thought of that one.

[Whirlybird]

Ahhhh, the windup becomes more blatant. Aerbabe, I wouldn't bother responding if I were you.

[AerBabe]

Respond to what? Sorry... did I miss a post? ;)

[flower]

Whirlybird,
one bad apple ruins the barrel. We are effectively the first generation of women able to "reach for the skies". Although there are some older ladies in aviation it is mainly peopled by those in their 30's and below. Many senior managers belong to our parents generation ,where women simply did not have the same opportunities. It is them who we have to convince that we are equal and up-to the task. You can not change attitudes quickly so yes we are probably judged as a group. Sexist ? maybe but probably not. 98% of my female colleagues play the game ,never ask for favours, become one of the lads and do a damn good job. But I know from personal experience that just 1 person taking everybody for a ride means I have to prove even more that I will not be doing the same.

It is up-to us to ensure that the next generation of girls think aviation is an excellent career choice, by ensuring that we give 100% at all times , thus ensuring our male colleagues can never complain about us as a group of women.

I have never experienced discrimination due to my gender in NATs
and when I have controlled women pilots (lovely to hear more and more of you on frequency) have never noticed any difference in the quality of flying between them and their male counterparts.

We will be judged for some time yet, pity the women fighter pilots who get their private life splashed across the Daily Mail, join in the banter ,give as good as they get ,it is probably that they are not sure how to handle you.

Aviation is fun we just have to spread the word.

Flower

[Whirlybird]

flower,

I fully understand and respect where you're coming from. But I personally don't think that in the long run that what you're saying is the way forward.

Firstly, if women are being considered as a group that IS SEXIST. Prejudice, by definition, is judging a whole group by your opinions of one person who has a certain characteristic shared by that group. Examples - all blacks are stupid, all Arabs are terrorists, all Pakistanis cook smelly food.....all women can't fly, or won't fit in.

I don't think you change prejudice by trying to impress the people concerned. I think that is actually playing thir game. I think you are better to ignore it, and do what YOU know is right, as an individual. You have to live YOUR own life, not react to others. They may learn something from that, or they may not.

But I wouldn't dream of telling YOU what to do in a difficult situation, which is obviously what you're describing. I'm simply describing MY way. And I've been living a long time, and now decided that I will simply be myself, and if people don't like that, tough. I do know that at various times on PPRuNe, on threads like this, I've had other women wish I'd shut up, clearly worried that I'll annoy the lads. Well, maybe I do annoy people. But if I shut up, isn't that simply doing what men have wanted women to do for generations? If I fit in, and play the game, and don't rock the boat even when it needs rocking...

Flower, I know you're talking about something slightly different. But maybe the same thing still applies.

[flower]

Whirlybird
in principle I am with you 100% why should we be judged against the worst of the bunch? However reality set in with me a while back and I have found diplomacy to be my best tool.

As Churchill said "jaw jaw is better than war war "

I think we should just agree to differ.

Flower

[Seriph]

Of course girls, you must perpetuate this myth of discrimination, for what other reason can you call upon to explain your failure to increase your numbers in the traditional male pursuits? I recall being assured in the 70's that a female would win the Indy 500 before the turn of the century, still waiting. I bet that in another 30 yrs the percentage of females in aviation is the same, because, quite simply the numbers at present reflect those that are interested in such pursuits. Airbabe, just what did you expect from your point about flying in a light aircraft with a female captain? Some of us fly big jets with female captains.

[I. M. Esperto]

Probably for the same reason there are so few male seamstresses.

[PPRuNe Pop]

I am surprised that a tone of bitchiness is rearing it's ugly head. That is NOT meant to suggest that it is coming only from the ladies either. Some of whom I know personally, and know to be sensible and knowledgeable of aviation.

So...perhaps it might be as well to steady the tone and keep an interesting thread alive.

From a personal point of view I have watched with interest over very many years the number of girls entering aviation, both civil and military, and I am delighted that this has happened. I flew with one of the first, Jean Cazalet, Marion Booth and others. There are some fine women pilots in many of the airlines now too, and in the military, one of whom I have enormous respect for as a Captain of a C130. Now, there is a lady who is in command of a RAF helicopter Squadron. There is also one of our wannabe Astraeus cadets who has just completed her line training and is now a fully fledged FO on the B737. We also have McD, one of our moderators, who has demonstrated that not only can she fly a B767, she can, and has, acquitted herself supremely well at the controls of and F16 fighter! What CAN you add to that?

Credit MUST be given to these females who have by and large had to put up with bigotry and bloody mindedness. In that regard I think that those who are guilty of such stupidity must question their own position and reasons. Women in aviation have as much right to be flying big and small jets as do the guys.


PPP

[Mac the Knife]

'Cmon now. Skip the prejudices, which undoubtedly still exist. In the end it's got nothing to do with brains or ability or will or dedication, but a lot to do with biology. Most women (and men) want to have children. However PC and supportive the partner is it is the woman who get pregnant, carries the baby, gives birth, lactates and is the most important for the first years. A baby's primary bond is to the mother, not the father.

I hate the hackneyed pilot/surgeon comparison, but the M:F proportions are nearly as skew with us as with you and for much the same reasons. Very long training, a lot of time away from home, endless exams, unsociable hours, on call and out at night and active surgery isn't the same as being a GP. Once you're on your way up the ladder it's hard to drop out for the minimum 2 years, regain proficiency and restart the climb and it's even harder to do twice or even three times.

I know several really top class women cutters, but most have chosen not to have have children and those who do have a husband with a quieter job and an extended family support system.

[Whirlybird]

flower,

I think we're in agreement as to the problem, just not about the solution. And agreeing to differ is fine with me - nice to meet someone on PPRuNe who doesn't turn every minor disagreement into a flame war.

I've followed numerous posts concerning women in aviation on PPRuNe over the years, on various topics, and they almost always follow this pattern:

1) Posts 1 - 10/20/30 ........The posts stay fairly on topic, whatever it is.

2) Mr Prejudice finds the thread, no matter where it's hiding, even on a forum he never normally reads. He posts something which is superficially on topic, but actually saying that women can't and shouldn't be pilots. This is probably irrelevant to the topic under discussion anyway.

3) Several women argue with Mr Prejudice, sometimes heatedly. They start to realise it's a waste of time, when...

4) Mr Windup finds the thread, and...er... winds everyone up.

5) Despite being urged to ignore Mr Windup, several people get wound up.

6) Ms Head-in-the-Sand pops up and says she's never encountered any prejudice in aviation. But she asks us nicely to shut up, in case we all annoy the guys - we've gotta play the game haven't we.

7) Mr Patronising tells us to be good little girls and shut up; there's been positive discrimination for the last 100 years; it's just that we're taking everything the wrong way and being stupid, but he'd expect that.

8) Mr Nice Guy finds the topic, and reminds everyone that women have been flying for a number of years, that some of them are Very Good, and that they EVEN become Captains on airliners and fly for the military!!!!! Mr Nice Guy would be appreciated, except for the fact that you can almost hear the "Wow, isn't that amazing, aren't they clever" in his post.

9) Mr Biology-is-Destiny decides to bring in genetics, families, kids, maternal instincts, and all that kinda stuff. PPRuNe gives a collective yawn. I always wonder why it never occurs to anyone, including the government, that kids are BOTH parents' responsibility.

10) By this point most female pilots have got bored or despairing of the human race, and probably gone flying. Aircraft do what they're asked to do, behave logically, and are unprejudiced. Some of us like them better than men. Need you ask why?

11) The thread degenerates, the original topic long gone, and the people it was relevant to doing something more important and interesting.

12) The moderator closes it.

I'm off on holiday tomorrow, so let's hope this particular thread will prove me wrong. I'm not sure I'll have Internet access, so I'm leaving it anyway.

[A-V-8R]

My experience with female airline pilots is that most of them are very good manipulators of the controls.

However, things change when they are in their late thirties and have their babies....In our airline they park themself on the widebodies, don't keep current, and most are adamant that they no longer want to be here but want to be home with their kids.

A couple of trips ago JFK is departing RW 31. There is a T-Procedure called "Track the centerline for 5 DME climb to 1500 feet turn left to Colts Neck VOR."

I tell my crew in the T/O briefing we are not going to comply with this. I see no reason to fly towards tall buildings when I can go over the water, dump fuel, and come back to land. And no way am I going to try to explain to the FAA why I passed a perfectly good airport (Newark) on the way to Colts Neck on one engine and didn't land.

The girl sez you must comply.


I say no, and explain why and how the obstacle clearance path is developed. In closing I say "You should read the Advisory Circular about this. It will answer a lot of your questions.

She replies, "I have two kids, and no time for this job."

(All of this was for naught, tho, talked to engineering and found out the T-Procedure was their to avoid a no fly zone after 9/11 which was no longer in effect....)

And don't even let me start with the pregnat F/0 who, when I asked for a step climb from FL 35 to FL 39 said "We can't climb to 390, MY BABY!"

I had a 777 bid last year and weasled my way out of it after recognising some of the names on the First Officer roster list.

I just cannot do it all by myself any more.

[Whirlybird]

AV8R,

And your point is?

Jeez...why do I bother. I'm off to Russia to go flying. :) :) :)

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

In this place of many flying schools close together there are two of us lady CFIs and nine gent CFIs. I have never sensed any difference in the way myself and the other lady are treated compared to the guys by others or amongst ourselves. Nor are we expected to wash up the coffee cups after CFI meetings. The local independant ATO is a lady. There are a couple of ladies in the tower, and the airport manager is a lady. Maybe we're all too busy getting on with our jobs to notice prejudice and discrimination, or maybe there simply isn't any.
Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophesy IMHO.
Sorry to the girls who don't agree with me.

[flower]

A-V-8R
This was the point I made afew days ago,1 or 2 bad apples we still all get the blame. So its up to us to try to get it right and convince our fellow ladies they have to take the heat.

Just as an aside I didn't think pregnant ladies were allowed to fly because of the dangers of radiation or does this only apply in the UK.

I am sorry you only seem to have encountered the "bad apples" I am sure most of you would agree they are becoming more and more rare and long may that continue.

Whirlybird hope you have a nice time in Russia, but I suspect this will run and run


:o :p :o

[Whirlybird]

Charlie Foxtrot India,

I know a similar flying school in the UK. The owner/f/w CFI is female, as is the helicopter CFI and one of the other f/w instructors. It's the only UK flying school I've ever walked into where I've felt completely at home, and just been treated normally (in the US I found much less prejudice, as I've said before). That fact is proof, if I needed it, that I wasn't imagining the strange reactions I get in every other flying school. I daresay when an organisation gets to the point that women are not a minority, they become accepted. This particular flying school has a 50:50 male/female student ratio too. I could speculate as to why - do the women get recommended, no they not get put off when they come along, or what? I've no idea.

What do you mean: "Perception of prejudice and discrimination can become a self fulfilling prophecy"? That we're perceiving it when it's not there? That we should pretend it isn't there when it is? That we should keep quiet about it and be nice - the traditional female role when such things occur?

I think there have been enough personal experiences posted here - and enough prejudice! - for it to be clear that it's there. And as I think I've said, being the sort of person who says it as I find it, I can't see any reason to be different and keep quiet about this. Yes, I know that in itself may make me unpopular. The upfront aggressive bitch - who if she was male would be perceived as strong and masterful. I've heard it, and I don't care. Because if the price of acceptance is being a sweet acquiescent woman - no way, that's far too high a price to pay!!!!

[Lance Rootem]

Interesting debate.

At the risk of being shot down, it's the big companies that do no one (especially girls) any favours. In their obsession with being PC and making the numbers look good, they tinker with the system.

My company has different standards in the cadet apptitude tests for men and women. Note different, not easier! Something about recognising the different qualities of both. ie generally men do better in the hand eye stuff than women and vice versa for the communication element. What a load of rubbish. Either you pass a set standard, which spots the apptitude for airline flying, or you don't, man or woman. Unfortunately with the standards as they were, not enough women were getting through the door. OK we'll just "adjust" the results then.

This does the majority of females no favours, because you end up with people in the system who are not up to it. Cue, throw cash at the problem, and just give them all the training it takes. Training your average bloke probably wouldn't get. End result women have to end up "proving themselves" for another 20 years.

[arcniz]

Lightning rods up and grounded. Contact!


(disclaimer, sort of: - the following all derives from long wanderings through the woods of neurobiology while on a Faustian crusade to understand how one can make machines think.....)


It's all in the whizzer. That's right. The Whizzer. Never overlook the obvious.

From the earliest moments of animate existence, the body trains the mind. In the course of doing what they are evolved to do, limbs, muscles, surfaces and appendages communicate with the central nervous system in evolving multi-path feedback loops to develop the dialogues of control and command that allow for coordinated movement and, ultimately, ballet.

One of the first self-actualizing experiences of a newborn baby boy is writing his name in the general direction of the sky (ergo ad astra, per asperem?) with his gender-specific nozzle. His twin sister receives less validation for the same performance, for lack of equivalent flow dynamics. And so thus, if not earlier in the womb, they launch on divergent tracks in regard to further training their nascent conceptual faculties in greater and lesser degrees of spatial awareness.

By the age of four or 5, the little boys are busy decorating snowbanks, throwing spears and rocks, shooting arrows, slingshots, and imaginary cannons. They are climbing up and down and falling off things at an enourmous rate, developing the intuitive complex senses of spatial geometry, gravity, and physical cause and effect. At the same age the girls are more commonly pushed (by their mommies) into staying clean, playing with dolls, arranging things into neat and orderly sets and piles and groups of things, and doing rhythmic, repetitive, extrinsically bounded activities such as dance and 'play' acting.

The inherent physical proclivities toward divergence in spatial and physical cause-effect reasoning are accelerated by nurturing methods from the preceeding generation of females who raise - one might note - both genders, but who undoubtedly have more hope for the girls and more resignation that "boys will be boys". As the physio-intellectual seeds planted in early life grow into adulthood, the patterns thus embedded become increasingly difficult - but never impossible - to modify.

So, in the biological universe, the hardware determines how the software 'needs' to work. Habits follow, and personalities color in to make it all seem somehow consistent.

-o-

One can expect that Seriph's broad understanding of this topic comes from intense contemplation of his own......experience.

[Seriph]

I'm afraid Arcniz that the body / environment does not train the mind as you suggest. This has been well established for some time. In fact the male / female brains develop quite differently and that is a simple matter of fact. Not better or worse but differently, giving each strengths and weakness' in different areas.

[flyblue]

One thing pilots find hard to understand is that someone could be absolutely not interested in flying an airplane. I realised that many regard at F/A as people who were not smart enough to fly and got into the airplane through the back door.
Not that I get bored in the cockpit, not even wanting to do the landing there, as someone said. I enjoy paying a visit there. Mostr of my friends are pilots. We talk "shop", and I never get bored about it.
But I NEVER ever wanted to fly an aircraft! What I like about flying, is not what pilots do. I personally know I would be bored to death. Like if you are a painter, you may like photograpy but still your thing is something else.

Not that I think that women who want to be pilots are not discriminated: they are, in some places and at various degrees. I also think that some may be influenced by the social pressure on them. Where I work there are many more than I was used to see in other companies, maybe because there is less discrimination (even if according to the unions there is still a lot of work to be done).

[A-V-8R]

Flower, I'm not sure if the rules regarding flying while pregnant are covered by the FAA or are my own carriers rules.

It used to be that the moment you were found pregant at this company you were grounded. Generally you used up your sick leave, then vacation, then no pay.

Then a New York based F/O filed for 55% medical disability pay during her pregnancy. She claimed pregnancy was a physical disability; here in this country you cannot discriminate in any way against disabilities. The Company then gave her a job teaching CLR to Flight Attendents. (Which in this case was like putting Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank.)

I'm not sure if she drew full pay or 55% pay for that, though I suspect full pay as they could use her for something and if they paid her 55% she would have stayed home.

I believe now the process is a grounding for the first trimester (To avoid fetus development problems) and a grounding during the last trimester.

Somewhere there is more information in the company website, when I return home I'll try to find it if you indicate you are interested in more.

[arcniz]

I'm afraid Arcniz that the body / environment does not train the mind as you suggest. This has been well established for some time. In fact the male / female brains develop quite differently and that is a simple matter of fact. Not better or worse but differently, giving each strengths and weakness' in different areas.
Not to fear, Seriph, but your science facts and the conclusions you derive from them are a bit out of date.

Perhaps you can find a more recent translation of the Bible.

:)

[brockenspectre]

Fundamental reason I couldn't become a professional pilot is my eyesight fails to meet the required standard and... as I was growing up in the era of Hamble, and got the prospectus (before I figured out about my eyesight) I knew I wouldn't be able to get the scientific A-levels required for entry (unlike a v good air cadet friend of mine at the time who "did" Hamble and is now a BA captain)... it took me so long to get into the air privately 'cos I just didn't have the means!! Oddly enough, it was only when I started in banking in the mid '80s, after a couple of other "jobs", that I found I have no problem with maths (calculating bond yields etc) .. it was all a question of having it explained properly!!!

Anyway, I have always adored being airborne and always will - especially in pursuit of my circular rainbows (brockenspectres) :D :D :D

I also wish to thank the many "front seat of house" folks who, in the time when it was possible, let me join them in the best seat when I was flying as pax but asked to visit - I was often there for take off and nearly always for landings!!! BRILLIANT!!

[Carruthers]

I'm afraid it's you who needs to get up to date Arcniz. It is obvious to any who wish to objectively observe, that there are significant differences twixt the sexes, reflected in every society and culture on the globe. One only has to witness that 95% of women can't reverse or park a car, it's not their forte and most don't give a damn about it, only a few girlies on these pages and yourself it would seem get wound up.

[arcniz]

Carruthers, kin of Seriph are ye? Fresh off the moor?

This present discussion devolves from some moderately thought -out assertions I made in regard to neuro - biological ontogeny. So far, nobody has popped up who comes close to my actual expertise there - sadly.

Thank you for providing such a well-silhoutted target in regard to the recitation of your expectations for something more than half of all humanity. I wonder if your dog, Puck, agrees?

Point number one, vis-a-vis your heartfelt but less-than-visionary (or is that missionary?) position is:

Vive la difference!


Point number two: In 1902 , roughly 100 percent of men AND women 'could not reverse or park a car'. What you perceive as distaff incompetence might only be a signal of their lack of access to training and the necessary equipment in your tiny time frame of reference. Over the 100K years since your kin, and maybe mine, commenced their long weaning from bannanas, a hundred counts for nought. I rather like bannanas, though. Lots of potassium.

FWIW, I prefer to associate with the smartest, most creative and most skillful women I can find. It makes for more interesting relations, as may be appropriate, and improves the quality of the other 99.992 percent of life as well.

Have you, perhaps, been inclined to cut a leg off Puck because he might occasionally outrun you on the moor? Not likely. It's a shame to cripple a right dog. So why would you wish high performance from your four-legged pal, yet less than the max from your fronty ones having only two?

[Carruthers]

There are non so blind as they who will not see. Neuro - biological ontogeny indeed, some prefer to blind with science of course. Open your eyes man.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Carruthers


One only has to witness that 95% of women can't reverse or park a car, it's not their forte and most don't give a damn about it


Good grief! You put yourself about a bit! Very bold statement, perhaps even slightly true, but not 95% - and it certainly doesn't only apply to women. But then this debate contains a good level of exaggeration, which leads me to think it is simply a way of pressing home an invalid point.

I haven't yet seen a GOOD reason WHY this industry, and others, fail to attract more women. Who or what causes that do you think?

[flower]

Carruthers , you have obviously decided that 50% of the population are irrelevant to society ,maybe some can't reverse cars who cares if they can or not .
I am unable to do many things ,I also possess skills I am sure that you do not and vice versa.

Our industry needs to attract a diverse group of people to its ranks,as we serve the whole world population not just one particular group.

As well as not attracting many women we still have very few people in the UK from different ethnic groups, why is this?

Perhaps aviation is seen as elitist, it is certainly very expensive without sponsership.

Career guidance at schools and universities has little mention of Flying ,be it up front or down the back of the aircraft.Air Traffic and engineering doesn,t even appear to exist.

When we are seen as a worthy career option in the eyes of the education system then perhaps there will be a more diverse selection of people be it male or female.

This can only benefit us all.

[I. M. Esperto]

To me, the reason is obvious. Women don't want to be airline pilots. If they did, they would apply.

Civil rights laws in the USA go out of their way to see to it that no qualified women are kept from employment in any field. The women know this, yet do not apply.

I like it the way it is.

The truth stands on it's own merit. It is the lie that needs protection.

[nika]

As a 21 year old girl who is having serious thoughts of a flying career, I thought I might be able to shed some light on this matter.

Firstly, I think girls rely on a lot of support from others as to what career choices they should make. I think that more than boys, they need a lot more reassurance. Eg 'do you think I would make a good pilot?' or 'can you see me as a pilot?' Because there is currently a very low percentage of women pilots and perhaps even because 'the general public' don't see/meet many women pilots often (if ever), many girls receive fake support. Even with the best of intentions, I've heard people give a lot of encouragement only to turn around and say, 'she won't do it'. Sad but true in some (not all) cases.

I think that self-doubt is another contributing aspect. I guess in a lot of situations, a male majority are seen in positions of power, leadership and quick decision-making. Eg politicians, police officers, army sergeants, emergency doctors, engineers etc. (Pease, I am not saying that women aren't seen in these jobs. I am trying to convey what only I have seen to be the case)
As a result, girls/women may fear not being able to handle emergency situations. Flying in poor weather conditions, being responsible for so many lives and very expensive aircrafts can seem rather daunting.

There is also a perception from many girls that flying is an extremely difficult thing to learn. For me when I was younger, I (no idea why) always assumed only engineers became jet pilots. Unless your came from an engineering background, you had no chance.

My school may be an exception, but there were a very low percentage of girls who took physics as a year 12 subject (a prerequisite for Qantas). In a class of over 40, there were only 4 girls. No deliberate measures were ever taken to increase female numbers (not that I think there should have been), I guess many girls just were not interested. Instead, many girls chose biology and human biology.

Finally, money for girls and guys in a major concern. Unless girls learn to fly before they get married and start a family, I am assuming that financial and time constraints would make learning to fly a difficult (not impossible) task. Also changing family environments may also impact. I would think that a flying career would be extremely difficult in a single parent situation.

Ok well that is what my thoughts are. These are only my opinions and I'm sure that some of you may have had different experiences and may not agree on some points. I’m sure that many guys may also have come across a number of these possibilities.
Anyway, perhaps if I had known at 16 what I know now, I might have started my lessons much earlier.

[weedflier]

During my time as a commercial flying instructor the best student I ever had was a girl. In the company I worked for, women were subject to exactly the same entry criteria as men for sponsored training and her aptitude result was the highest we ever recorded. She had terrific hand/foot/eye co-ordination and only ever needed to be shown anything once. In general (though not always) the female students we had were of a high average to above average standard. We did have considerably fewer applications from women than men though.