Total War

[controlledrest]

The POS18 joiners have been saved by the completely immoral and unforgivable actions of the :mad: who mis-manage CX, so they will be celebrating the recent events. They are probably too naive to release that the attacks on us won't stop. Every generation of mis-manager has to earn their bonus by improving productivity (cutting costs).

For the rest of us it is crystal clear this is total war. I signed POS18. I'll get current, update my CV. I'll be taxying slightly slower, more climbs will be no-derate, I'll never take a direct, descents will be very conservative, I'll use full reserve slightly more often, I'll miss the first exit slightly more often. As the industry improves I'll be looking for a new job, once that is lined up I'll pull a few sickies at outports where it costs the most to delay a flight. I'll have my pound of flesh.

[mngmt mole]

I suspect the company has well factored in a disgruntled workforce. Slow taxiing....? I suggest that won't really make up for a 60% pay cut. It's over at CX, and pilots lack of enthusiasm really isn't going to move the meter very much. The company is just another Asian LLC. And the pilots are now working for an employer who values them accordingly.

[fly1981]

what a complete load of rubbish. No body has been saved from anything. The playing field has just been leveled. With the slow but steady degradation of t&c’s over the last few years, this was bound to happen eventually. The current pandemic just provided the perfect opportunity. Airlines around the world are fighting to survive, CX is no different. It has absolutely nothing to do with Mis-management, it’s business...if you do what you have mentioned above, in all honesty you will be reported( very possibly by one of those pos18 joiners, based on your apparent attitude towards them, remember, they have lost nothing. They are still in hk on the contract they agreed to join on) and you will be fired. Just saying....

[Slasher1]

I can tell ya right now if ya signed anything ya ain't winnin'.

[MENELAUS]

And you wouldn’t know what ‘a war’ is.

[wheels_down]

Geez will you bitter CX lot just quit and be done with it. So sick of the whining.

Move on. For heavens sake.

Perhaps try something outside of aviation.

[veritas777]

I'll be taxying slightly slower, more climbs will be no-derate, I'll never take a direct, descents will be very conservative, I'll use full reserve slightly more often, I'll miss the first exit slightly more often. As the industry improves I'll be looking for a new job, once that is lined up I'll pull a few sickies at outports where it costs the most to delay a flight. I'll have my pound of flesh.

You might be looking for that job faster than you think in that case...

Replaced by a cadet who is more talented and can fly the aircraft better, and will get to keep their job. Bye!

Edit: At the end of the day, you either like it enough to stay, or hate it enough to leave. If you hate it but stay, then that's on you.

[el commandante]

controlledrest

what an absolute loser.
How about you leave straight away and let the rest get on with it, you whining moron. Crying for mummy's help are you?

[Curry Lamb]

Check out Greater Bay Airlines, they’re looking for a few good men, and so am I !

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3107962/shenzhen-mogul-bill-wong-looks-beyond-covid-19-ready-hire

Has anyone actually seen the recruitment ads they mention in the article?

[wongsuzie]

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[JMock]

however AOC still on the distant horizon

[kennedytown]

I love all this bluffing that you will taxi slow and won't take directs and will update your CV and leave. You all should be grateful that you still have jobs and haven't been laid off like what other pilots have been worldwide including your Cathay Dragon colleagues. They'd happily take your position if you don't want it. Feel free to return to your home country now and join the other pilots driving tractors, trucks or stacking shelves in the supermarket. Even on COS18, the package is still way better than what you would earn at other airlines back in your home countries so none of you will actually leave when the opportunity arises once things recover. Oh and you'll have to wait for all those pilots back in your home country who were laid off to be recalled first and at that point you will be going to the bottom of the seniority list so doubt you will. So good luck. Even on the new contract the grass isn't greener. Cathay pilots have been spoiled for too long with your overly generous packages, this is a well needed reality check.

[Brown Nose]

what an absolute loser.
How about you leave straight away and let the rest get on with it, you whining moron. Crying for mummy's help are you?

Ha Ha classic! anyone that says "let the rest get on with it" is the biggest loser of them all. Are you going to grab your ankles and wipe off the lube so it hurts a bit more for management satisfaction too?

All of what CR is going to do should have been done for the last few years, which is what I have done and still haven't been sacked.

Most CX pilots deserve the COS18 contract for being limp wristed losers and never standing up for themselves

[boocs]

and don't forget No accident/incident letter from previous employer.

[ACMS]

You might be looking for that job faster than you think in that case...

Replaced by a cadet who is more talented and can fly the aircraft better, and will get to keep their job. Bye!

Edit: At the end of the day, you either like it enough to stay, or hate it enough to leave. If you hate it but stay, then that's on you.


Getting a bit sick of your BS mate.....Do the time, get some runs on the board first and then go :mad: off about how good you are some place else...

[icemankk2001]

bunch of kids at CX currently.... pity pity

[Angel 8]

Oh. so Captains did RETI for being afraid of F/O’s or S/O’s.
I wonder whether you ever had a shot at being a Captain in the past, because unfortunately your comments render you Not suitable for command, as you do not understand the reason why a Captain is a Captain.

[Angel 8]

Just to add to the debate,
Pilots who were forced to sign to CoS18 did so in order to continue to feed their family, not because they want to help CX.
Those, if any, who will not sign over, also have their reasons.
So instead of the childish comments in previous threads, please be kind and support each other as the recovery will come one day.

[The100thmeridian]

Here here!


Not in a million years would any of you ever speak to each other this way in person. How do I know? Well simply put, because after many years I never have! A car or a keyboard shouldn't change your principles. ​​​​​​

I firmly believe that we all have our reasons and you'll never really know the full story of someone's factors to consider are.

[Farman Biplane]

Never fear boys and girls, the HKAOA has fired the first shot in your “Total War”.........a SURVEY.......

[never ready]

Hilarious, but absolutely true.... in fact mimicking the company. They issue surveys and then disregard what it's told them.

[Sam Ting Wong]

At least no more voting against 10 year Arapa or a payrise.




[justasmallfire]

Im in Europe for a low cost carrier,Ive been on a 50% paycut since March(even a full wage stil only a fraction of many companies),I wont moan about it Im keeping current and ratings renewed when things turn around I will expect wages to reflect this if not then I will move on even if this means out of aviation.Those moaning about the way things are need to ask themselves "Can I afford medicals,sim refreshers and checks until I find a new job" not to mention rent and food.

[dubaiwarrior]

I mean, at least now those of us that joined on CoS08 will cease to be belittled by those (that were) on superior contracts.

Those that grumbled at us for accepting a lower contract are now doing the very same thing. (And no, before you say it, it really isn't different).

It's unpleasant, but when it comes to picking the best option of a band bunch, there really isn't much choice.

[badge42]

dubaiwarrior is correct.

[Oasis]

Not quite the same though... when you accepted cos18, the pilot market was significantly better.

now you won’t be able to find a job anywhere, you really have no option other than to opt out, completely..

[Morphieus]

I have been on zero pay since April waiting and hoping for our bankrupt airline to get off the ground again. The little monthly financial help we’ve received from our “government“ represents 4% of my salary. I have been trying for 6 months, with very limited success, to make a buck doing jobs I wouldn’t have dreamed of a year ago. My comfortable left seat job seems like a distant memory now.
Whatever the conditions of employment under this COS 18, I guarantee you it’s better than sitting without a job in this economic environment. If you are still employed in an airline and receiving a salary you’re not doing too bad! It’s not easy making a living out there...

[dubaiwarrior]

Oasis

I assure you, much like now, it was the only palatable offer at the time, and certainly the best. It didn’t prevent many years of judgement though...

Perhaps a time to reflect on how we treat each other, and the importance of a bit of mutual respect.

[Orange future]

I love all this bluffing that you will taxi slow and won't take directs and will update your CV and leave. You all should be grateful that you still have jobs and haven't been laid off like what other pilots have been worldwide including your Cathay Dragon colleagues. They'd happily take your position if you don't want it. Feel free to return to your home country now and join the other pilots driving tractors, trucks or stacking shelves in the supermarket. Even on COS18, the package is still way better than what you would earn at other airlines back in your home countries so none of you will actually leave when the opportunity arises once things recover. Oh and you'll have to wait for all those pilots back in your home country who were laid off to be recalled first and at that point you will be going to the bottom of the seniority list so doubt you will. So good luck. Even on the new contract the grass isn't greener. Cathay pilots have been spoiled for too long with your overly generous packages, this is a well needed reality check.

At least someone in honky has a grasp of reality.

A lot down here in oz have yet to wake up and smell the coffee.

Winning right now is having a job because without one it will be a very very long time before you will have one.

Dont blow it!

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dubaiwarrior is correct in my opinion. It's an enduring myth that they had plenty of superior alternatives.

[controlledrest]

I mean, at least now those of us that joined on CoS08 will cease to be belittled by those (that were) on superior contracts.

Those that grumbled at us for accepting a lower contract are now doing the very same thing. (And no, before you say it, it really isn't different).

It's unpleasant, but when it comes to picking the best option of a band bunch, there really isn't much choice.

I guess there are similarities. POS18 joiners took the job because it was the best offer they had (due to low experience or no other options). The rest of us have been given a sign or fire and in the current environment one has bugger all choice but to sign. One group because they couldn't get a better job, the other group because there are no other jobs.

[A320LGW]

In a European mainline carrier and I have just joined Domino's as a pizza delivery driver ... no pay or work since March.

Anyone wanna swap places!?

In all seriousness, I can understand the frustrations of those if they have witnessed their T&Cs drop significantly since joining, we got into flying to lead comfortable lives, not to be thankful for whatever crumbs get thrown at us and have management step all over us.

For now the way I see it is you make note of what management are doing and when better times come (which they will), you put the foot down and make your case heard. When they really do need you all to fulfill schedules again and finding a replacement with the adequate experience won't be so easy you'll have an amount of bargaining power. Right now you have none and they have it all unfortunately.

[Bangaluru]

controlledrest

I completely understand your feelings, but to think these pitiful actions will make any difference to ANYTHING is laughable. They’ve trapped us and we have to tramp the treadmill until another opportunity arises. It’s sobering to hear about airline captains delivering pizzas. I appreciate those who posted.

[RAT Management]

I still can't believe they actually pay me to do this!

[ManaAdaSystem]

What, troll the internet?

[RAT Management]

Ha ha ha. I overlooked that.

[Oddball77]

controlledrest

What a load of nonsense, all this big talk, chest beating will amount to nothing! Fact that you've already signed over to COS 18 says it all.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I have to agree unfortunately.
Traditionally a war doesn't start with surrendering..

[doolay]

Agree. The war is over. We are all now POW's. Our task now is to escape.

[Flying Clog]

Correct. Two years. Tick Tock. A quite comfortable period to retrain into a different career. The exodus in Dec 2022 should, hopefully, be something to behold.

I will enjoy my last two years as a 747 captain thoroughly, keep her between the ditches, and make the most of it. But I'm definitely not going to look back afterwards pining for the ****e treatment and toxic industry I've been a part of for 20 odd years.

I can't wait!

[Asturias56]

"We are all now POW's."

Wrong - POW's had rights - you're all in a Concentration Camp for the foreseeable future - no way out, no rights, no say and no-one outside is at all interested in you

But you do have a job flying aeroplanes - which is probably better than delivering pizza to keep your family

[Flying Clog]

We do have a way out, in 25 months.

[Curry Lamb]

Pilots, cabin crew get together to take on Cathay
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1558376-20201104.htm

Only 8 months too late, bunch of clowns !

[fatbus]

2 years? Do you have a no layoff clause ? A lot riding on return of travel which , if it happens, will be slow .

[Piet Lood]

Fact that you've already signed over to COS 18 says it all.

You know what frustrates me more than the actions of the company?
The actions and words of my colleagues!

Contrary to popular (and STW’s) belief, I and probably cxorcist have not and will not sign across to pos18. (How many times and how wrong can one person be?).

Based on oddball’s statement, people who signed across to pos18, should just STFU.
I’m willing to put a bet in that if cxorcist or I will keep posting about the state of the cx union, we will also be told to STFU, because we have obviously lost our right to comment on a company we are no longer a part of.

May the odds be forever in your favour. Idiots!

[casablanca]

veritas777

Im glad you have a healthy dose of humility!....too funny

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet, you are based, right ? ;-)

[redfish777]

controlledrest

In this "total war", who is the enemy? Management, right? Management is hired by the board. The board is appointed by shareholders. Are shareholders the enemy too?

But please look at what shareholders did in the last few months. They knew there would be no dividend for quite a while. Yet they put in new capital of over HK$10 billion in the company. There is no guarantee they will get it back. Part of that money has been used to pay employees.

If shareholders did not put in new capital, I don't think the government would save the company by itself.

Employers and employees bargain or fight for a bigger share of any business. But it's not a war. If any side does things like it's a war, both sides lose.

[Piet Lood]

Piet, you are based, right ? ;-)

As I said: “How many times and how wrong can one person be?”
Keep fishing buddy. Almost there.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Well, then you just saved the company 1.6 M

[Piet Lood]

And your point?

[fly1981]

So, it seems rumors of slightly under 99 percent signed over. What I would like to know is, all those top scale guys that have signed over to ‘cos18’, that have openly ripped the junior guys apart for ‘accepting substandard contracts’ in the past, how does it feel to be classified a hypocrite?
for the just over 1 percent that never did, good on you for sticking to your guns.

[Flying Clog]

HUGE difference fly1981, huge.

[SaulGoodman]

Please enlighten us Master Clog?

[Rie]

fly1981

Didn't see it posted so
Signed
- 2,613 pilots (98.5%) - 7,346 cabin crew (91.6%)
Refused
- 40 pilots (1.5%) - 674 cabin crew (8.4%)

[fly1981]

HUGE difference fly1981, huge.

how? Those junior guys were taking the only option available to them, exactly the same as you are?

[Flying Clog]

The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!

In the current circumstances, there are NO jobs out there to go to. So those of us forced onto COS18 have to choose between unemployment and never flying again once they become uncurrent (12 months), or sign over to COS18.

There is a wee bit of difference there me thinks.

[Rie]

Clog you are right on the money. The second you lose your job in this current environment your career has ended unless you find something within a reasonably short amount of time. The minute your aircraft/instrument rating lapses as an expat no one will touch you. No flight within last 12 months and no contracting company will want to know who you are.

Maybe you can head home to an airline but I am near certain they are not going to be hiring for most. Train and Truck drivers seem to be the pathway for many going ahead. It really is a desolate reality out there.

We had no choice but to lay down and accept the beating.

[fly1981]

Flying Clog

you have no idea what options were available to them, nor do I, the fact that they chose the contract tells me there were not to many options available to them, exactly the same as the remaining cx pilots, your option is to sign, keep your job, or don’t sign, loose your job. Their option was to accept the contract, secure the job, don’t accept the contract, someone else will. If there were better options available to them, I’m sure they would have taken them, again, exactly the same as anyone who signed over to the new cos.

[Near Miss]

Fly1981 What's the difference? One is being forced to jump into lifeboat in the middle of the Atlantic when your cruise ship hit an iceberg. The second is trying to cross the Atlantic in a lifeboat.

If that is what you want to do, then fine. But don't take joy in others misfortune.

[Gnadenburg]

Rie

Nobody's blaming you for signing COS 18. Though I'd suggest that many expats rebuilt careers after 9/11 and GFC after being grounded a long period of time. So the same will happen again post-COVID is my guess.

[fly1981]

Near Miss

exactly my point! There is no difference between those that signed across, and those that ‘ accepted a substandard contract’. I am not taking joy in anyone’s misfortune. I think anyone currently involved in the airline industry ( not just cx) are experiencing some sort of misfortune, and there is no end in sight.

[White Van Driver]

"We are all now POW's."

Wrong - POW's had rights - you're all in a Concentration Camp for the foreseeable future - no way out, no rights, no say and no-one outside is at all interested in you

But you do have a job flying aeroplanes - which is probably better than delivering pizza to keep your family

Hahaha are you really comparing a frustrating/costly reduction in terms of an employment contract unfavourably with the rights of POWs? Get a grip.

I actually do have sympathy for all the A/B/C scalers who are effectively being forced to sign this new permanent contract - it's certainly a significant blow to your life plans and you will need to make a downward adjustment in your lifestyle. But you are free to leave, no-one is trying to kill you, and your labour is still fairly well rewarded - this is not a concentration camp.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!

In the current circumstances, there are NO jobs out there to go to. So those of us forced onto COS18 have to choose between unemployment and never flying again once they become uncurrent (12 months), or sign over to COS18.

There is a wee bit of difference there me thinks.

So, you joined on A scale?

[redfish777]

controlledrest

In this "total war", who is the enemy? Management, right? Management is hired by the board. The board is appointed by shareholders. Are shareholders the enemy too?

But please look at what shareholders did in the last few months. They knew there would be no dividend for quite a while. Yet they put in new capital of over HK$10 billion. There is no guarantee they will get it back. Part of that money has been used to pay employees. If shareholders didn't put in new capital, I don't think the government would save the company by itself.

Employers and employees can fight for a bigger share of any business. But it's not a war. If any side does things like it's a war, both sides lose.

[bm330]

An interesting interpretation of the last 20 years of industrial relations between the Company and its employee groups. The war didn't just start.

Make no mistake, investors are protecting their investment, nothing else.

[Bokpiel]

The only option for these junior pilots was to come to Cathay undermining our contracts? There were NO other jobs out there in 2018-2019? Cathay lapped them up, and you can't blame Cathay - if pilots with virtually no experience were willing to undercut current cx pilots, then great, welcome aboard!

Agree. How can any pathetic pilot outside CX have the audacity to want to further their career and "undermine" YOUR contract? We all know they had thousands of other opportunities. You would have NEVER done the same if you were in their position, right?

Congrats, you just dethroned cxorcist as the biggest POES on this forum!

[Kitsune]

The rot started with ‘B’ Scale... when pilots looking for jobs undermined the ‘A’ Scale contract...

[YellowFever777]

Correct! The hypocrisy of some B scalers on here pointing the finger at others who signed lesser contracts than themselves is laughable. The same B scalers who have now signed cos 18 in a heartbeat rather than leaving with conviction and their dignity intact.

Talk about living in a bubble for the past 20 years.

P-A-T-H-E-T-I-C!

[SloppyJoe]

The only ones to blame for the rot beginning are those A scalers who sat doing nothing whilst CX introduced lower conditions and the trainers who trained their cheaper replacements.

Blaming this on someone looking for a job, obviously taking the best option available to them, is the most ludicrous argument I have heard.

[Farman Biplane]

...and those remaining ex-A scalers have just signed on again for even less. I wonder what the outcome would have been in the last 25yrs if they had ever shown any resistance?

[Koan]

But they did! Vandalising the Star ferry with a "HKAOA Contract = Career" sticker , when nobody was looking.
Real unity inspiration there. At least they tried.

[Asturias56]

Farman Biplane

The airline would have gone bust sooner

[AllWobbly]

Koan

I think they got that the wrong way round. It should have said - no contract and no career.
A far more accurate reflection of the situation

[Piet Lood]

And the blame game continues.
I would love to see what the current ?-scalers will do when the market picks up again and the next generation of ?+1-scalers come knocking at cx’s door to take your job for 50-75% of the current pos18.
Don’t think it can’t happen. People are currently flying for free in Vietnam.
But I’m sure this time it’ll be different and the pilot population will take a stand and tell management they will not accept this degradation of their cos....

100.000+ unemployed pilots on the market, but I’m sure we’ll be fine....

[Piet Lood]

Meanwhile your bosses took a 1 year 15% paycut and yet nobody blinks an eye.
Keep fighting each other boys.
STW, how is that cancellation of cc and tb working out for you? Back to working G days?
Or are you already at your 35 hours this month?

[jmmoric]

controlledrest

Are shareholders the enemy too?

Shareholders are pensionfunds or individuals, who have a little extra, trying to polster themselves for their retirement.... which means..... we are figthing ourselves :}

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet! I missed you :)

We actualy did CC etc exactly as YOU wanted.I did all that too, never worked a single G day, waited for hours and hours in the crew lounge because I wasn't allowed to acknowledge roster changes, even wore that ridiculous stupid silly clownish red lanyard. I did all that although I voted against rejecting a payrise and then against rejecting a 10 year ARAPA deal.

What more do you need to acknowledge that is was in vain?? I did not break out of the picket line, don't blame me. Accept it, in HK unions are useless. Nobody ever cared really what we want, it is down to pure market forces, always was, always will be.
Speaking of market forces: You either signed over or you are based ( which you denied) or you are no longer with us. Enlighten me please.

My money is on you signed over, as did cxorcist.

[Piet Lood]

How much money did you bet? I bet it’s not even worth a beer, you cheapskate, but I would give you my bankaccountnumber nonetheless.
The reason why unions in HKG are useless is because the members have always been.
”I’m allright Jack” has always been the motto.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Piet, just think for a minute. All airlines worldwide layoff people, 99% of all airlines pay less now than 20 years ago after inflation, all fly more, less rest, sleep in mediocre hotels, less allowances, less pension, later retirement etc. LCC airlines pay peanuts everywhere. At the same time recruitment extended to countries with lower wages, and globally young people still wanted to do this job. I bet anything I have, even as we speak, in the midst of a pandemic, thousands of 18 year old boys dream about becoming a pilot.Unions in HK are powerless, legislation is against us.

And still you blame me? Come on, this doesn't make sense.It's absurd.

Why is it so difficult for you to acknowledge the power of market forces?

Our industry is in decline, nothing in the world will stop that.

So, what are you up to now? Retired? Come on, spit it out.

[westcoastcaptain]

“The only ones to blame for the rot beginning are those A scalers who sat doing nothing whilst CX introduced lower conditions and the trainers who trained their cheaper replacements.

Blaming this on someone looking for a job, obviously taking the best option available to them, is the most ludicrous argument I have heard.”

What a myopic and immature statement. The reality is the downward trend in pay and benefits all started on April 1st, 1993 when a group of pilots, the “B” scale, came to Hong Kong and said they would gladly do our same jobs for less pay and benefits. Following quickly behind them came the new ASL pilots who took over the freighter flying for even less pay and benefits. I could go on, but there is a pattern. Why the pilots chose to do the same jobs for much less is completely irrelevant, the fact is they did.

The history speaks for itself. From experience, those who complain and are the most vocal are usually the same ones who are the first to fold their tents and sign. No, it isn’t always somebody else’s fault.

Look around, there are thousands of pilots worldwide wishing they had a job now at a fraction of what you are getting paid.

[Piet Lood]

Sam Ting Wong

I have accepted market forces and have given up the fight.
What I fail to understand is that we were never able or willing to take a stand all those years ago and monetised the best supply and demand situation I have seen in 40 years of aviation.
And I am not talking about us accepting our 30
pieces of silver in return for your measly 4% and thereby capitulating the best negotiating position in decades.
In short: I am not talking about now, I’m talking about then.

For now, I wish you all the best with your market forces. I’m allright Jack and at least I tried. Funny old thing: I too spent hours and hours in dispatch in the middle of the night “waiting” for delayed and cancelled flights.
95% of the time with all my friends: me, myself and I.
When the other guy(s) showed up at the new report time, they NEVER appreciated the “education” regarding cc.
THAT’S the uselessness of the membership and pilot body I am referring to.
(And don’t even get me started on our “friends” who were “forced” into training or broke the tb.
May their names and careers be tarnished for good!)
Hence we were never able to capitalise on our “strong” position.
Management know our weaknesses and are VERY capable of capitalising on those, hence their paycut only lasts one year and is a mere 15%.
I tried to put my 2 cents in and failed.
I can only hope the next generation can learn from our failure(s) to stand up for ourselves, but I won’t hold my breath.
Can’t really blame them: My generation didn’t exactly lead by example.
Had a good run and enjoyed a lot of it though.

[Freehills]

westcoastcaptain

The reason why they chose to do the same job for less was that it was paying more than the same job they were already doing. Probably the same reason the A scalers took the jobs as well

[Sam Ting Wong]

Words of wisdom, freehills.

Piet, you are a good guy, no doubt. Maybe look at it this way: no matter what we could have achieved last few years, they would have used the current crisis to take it away anyway.

[mngmt mole]

You are not wrong there STW. That is exactly what they would have done regardless.

[Piet Lood]

Sam Ting Wong

Of course they would have, but if we would have showed them our balls in 2001 and 2015 or thereabouts, in stead of getting them chopped off, maybe we could have achieved something more.
That way our damages could have also been limited to a TEMPORARY concession of 15%, like our leaders’.

In stead, you and your ilk, were ready to cave in for a measly 4% in return for a full surrender, because you felt you were falling on rough times for sitting in dispatch for naught once in a while.
Meanwhile, nobody was and is willing to shun the likes of the tb-breakers and make their lives a living hell or even by giving them the cold shoulder on layovers.
Don’t want to piss off the TRE in case he does your line-check now, would you?
If you don’t fit the shoe, by all means, don’t put it on, but PLEASE, for the love of Buddha, ask yourself if you couldn’t have tried to achieve more by convincing your peers to stand up for what’s right.

What is NOT right is the current situation where your already multi-million-dollar “owners” are enriching themselves even further on your behalf. But you don’t care. You’re allright. Almost retired. Filthy rich with multiple properties.
You just wished you had those extra pieces of silver to buy that Porsche/Harley/65”plasma in your vacation home, so you don’t have to rent one every time you go to your dacha.
Sorry if I put a wrench in that plan and tried to better the conditions for EVERYONE for the LONG term.
As I said: I failed, but I can hold my head up high and look myself in the mirror.
I often wonder how the “forced” trainers and management pilots can though.
Oh well, off to the pool I go.

[Piet Lood]

We actualy did CC etc exactly as YOU wanted.

One more thing: the above is absolutely not true. You and I and most 747 pilots did, but the Barbie fleet was very prone to acknowledging roster changes. Nobody ever reported them though, so a bit hard to investigate.
They were hard done by too though: ****ty soft pillows.
Exceptions all around of course and I am painting with a broad stroke.
If you however think that cc was a success, you are mistaken. Even if it was, if that’s the best you can achieve after dealing with the 49-ers, ask yourself: “how strong was the membership really?”

By all means, blame it on the HKG labour laws. I, for one, blame it on the lack of backbone of the pilot community.

[TimeToWhine]

(And don’t even get me started on our “friends” who were “forced” into training or broke the tb.
May their names and careers be tarnished for good!)

Yes, however, all the talk of betrayal is always behind their backs and never to their face. They will never really see or hear any tarnish for doing such thing.

I’ve seen and heard many a old crusty Captain berate the brand new very junior C&T Captain at the pub, however, come line check time with said Jr Captain, old crusty is down on his knees right from dispatch crying ‘yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir. Shine your shoes and suck your d..k sir?’

Pathetic.

[missingblade]

Piet Lood - it's bizzare how seemingly intelligent people like you still hold onto the belief that we would be better off if we had more backbone. You miss the forest for the trees.

If Ryanair can get away with what they can in Europe etc etc it's kind of cute that people like you still believe that the cx pilots in Hong Kong could somehow have done better if only they didn't answer their phones more or did CC better or didn't join training.

There is a direct correlation between:
1. Pilot contract conditions and the legal environment of countries and
2. Pilot pay and supply and demand.

Individuals not answering phones hasn't had much effect on this for a very long time.

The memberships biggest failure was the fact that we kept electing angry people onto the AOA committee who kept pushing the idea that we can somehow beat this reality.
And worse - only some had to "fight " by accepting delayed career advancement while the rest didn't have to do anything but sit on their hands ( example -JFO upgrade delays while DEFO get hired, not allowed to advance your career by joining training etc)

They would have been much better off if they had rather tried to keep a better relationship going with the grown ups. That would have led to less of a rogering right now as it's fairly clear that many no cost vindictive elements of COS18 is the parents punishing the kids for their bad behaviour...

[Piet Lood]

Yes, because that’s how grownups behave: they punish their “kids” for bad behaviour.
In stead of taking the high road and teach those kids some empathy.
In stead of “rewarding” the kids with no cost items and try and work together with the “kids”, they punish them and deny them their playtime/tear up their rostering practices.
You’d make a great dad!

Look, I get it, I hit a soar spot and the old “it’s not fair that the trainers have to bear all the burden” is a well known and worn out complaint and I won’t bore you with the similarly old and tired “with great power, comes great responsibility”-answer.

I can’t prove to you that I’m right in that a pilot body with a backbone would have achieved more (there never has been any), but I CAN prove that you’re wrong in that working together with the adults didn’t achieve any improvement either. Ask Darryl and Tad.

P.S. You’re in training aren’t ya?

[tyson744]

Well I did not sign over. I came here for a contract. Left Qantas actually. Going forward for me at least. Not worth staying. I hope all my colleagues manage to see their way through this very tough year. Work if you need to, pay your bills. Leave when you can. Thats what the industry has become. Why you would train to be a pilot outside the military now I can't answer that. The industry will rite itself, however I'll be in my 60's by then.

[SaulGoodman]

Piet Lood, you are entirely right. The comparison with Ryanair is useless as Ryanair abuses the situation as they work in different countries, different jurisdictions with different employment regulations.

[mngmt mole]

This has turned into a very interesting debate. On balance, I have great sympathy for Piet. Regardless of what "would" have happened now under the present circumstance, I believe he is right that the lack of backbone amongst our pilots overall has led to this denouement of our COS. Unfortunately, once they began training local pilots, added bases and then selectively played one group against another over the past 25 years, the outcome is not in doubt (just to be clear, I am not picking on the local pilots, many of whom I consider dear colleagues....just that their situation means they would always collectively be more prone to agree to play the company's game, as this is their home and they really don't have any other option).

The real problem was that on a few specific issues (Trainers joining against a ban), we really did shoot ourselves in the foot. I know from the inside that prior to the defections, the company was in a world of hurt with their training capability (PC was throwing his toys against the wall daily on this point). They were even considering contracting with outside vendors to do the training. Once the defectors made their move, the company's biggest problem was solved. I suppose the karma aspect is that they are suffering the pay cuts now like all the others, so they ironically enabled the company to prevent proper improvement to our contracts, contracts that may have changed just enough to more legally protect what we had. Too late now.

Ultimately, I believe it's all too late. If you look at the history of CX since the early 90's, it has been the slow implementation of the "death of a thousand cuts" strategy to bring us to the point we are at today. I must admit it took longer than I thought it would, but it has now reached a point that there is truly nothing left to cut.

The only strength the pilots have remaining is to leave. Hopefully there will be a resurgence in our industry that leaves CX management on the back foot. If there is a better option going forward (or even a similar option), I suspect that many will not forget what CX has done and will leave and take that option. Who could possibly trust their careers, their family's future and security to what is obviously a cold and heartless organisation, one that will victimise you at any time they wish if they choose to make an example of you. There can surely be no point in enduring in HK with such an employer.

In closing, I think Piet largely represents the more honest assessment of the situation, and for anyone left at CX, or who moves to another airline at some point, his sentiments represent the dynamic that would have likely resulted in a better outcome for us all. Again, it's too late now for such hopes at CX.

[Flying Clog]

Very good discussion above. And mngmt mole - good post.

The interesting thing now is, as opposed to the good old days pre golden opportunity for management (bat flu), now we are all on the same sh!thouse deal....

Cathay's old 'divide and conquer' strategy is now null and void.

We now have the opportunity, particularly in 2 years for some of us, to unite and stick it to these bar stewards.

Let's hope this is progress. Maybe I'm clutching at straws!

[mngmt mole]

Flying Clog. I would like to think you are right, but in two years the terms get even worse (for most) as the housing extension expires....resulting in another significant cut in remuneration. It will take a long while to begin recouping even that amount, never mind the lost salary. I'm sorry to be so negative, but I am at least realistic. The "career" at CX is finished. The only real power you have is in leaving...

[Flying Clog]

Totally agree.

But maybe there is hope left for those of us not fortunate enough to leave in 2 years with a a few flats paid off.

There is the opportunity for those remaining to at least all be angry for the same reason for once, and unite!

[AllWobbly]

Its a massive hill to climb. A 50% salary cut needs a 100% raise to recover parity. Or 6% annually for 12 years. Tweak the numbers for your own package and years to run. Then add inflation and the conclusion is stark.

[westcoastcaptain]

"The reason why they chose to do the same job for less was that it was paying more than the same job they were already doing. Probably the same reason the A scalers took the jobs as well"

Freehills, that is a very astute comment. Now tell me, how could an A scale pilot prevent someone from joining on a much better package than they already had? They can't. It is completely ludicrous to suggest it was the fault of the A scale pilots that many joined the lesser B scale. The reality is it is simpler to blame someone else.

[controlledrest]

Flying Clog

I suggest all of those who joined on POS18 are very happy the company breached the contracts and have arse raped most of us. They get to keep their jobs and their conditions.

I always thought POS18 was a contract for someone with no experience who would use CX as a stepping stone before moving onto a real company. This now applies to all of us. I'm working on my CV and adding up my log book. Then I'll be joining the agencies lists for when things are picking up. CX is now just a stepping stone for me.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I expect it will be a step down rather than up. But maybe at least closer home.

[Flying Clog]

Correct controlled rest and STW, exactly that. Will be a step down, but much closer to home. After all, that's the reason we put up with CX and HKG all these years. The bucket of money and perks outweighed the aggro and distance from 'home'..

No more.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Will see. In the end talk is cheap. The few brave ones have left already, those still here by now will find another excuse in two years. Most of us will be in for a shock realizing just how bad the package at that LCC actually is, and I am not talking only about the money.

[quadspeed]

Either you like living in Hong Kong or you do not.

If you do not - and the compensation package doesn't weight up for that - then you leave.

If you like living here, then this is the going rate.

That's been the deal for the last 75 years.

[controlledrest]

Sam Ting Wong

I agree that there is much more to a job than the money. There is the roster and control over it, the layovers, where you get to live, the people you work with and the culture of the whole operation (are they good operators or an accident waiting to happen)....there is also an old concept of entering into an agreement and keeping your word. CX (with support of the Hong Kong govn) have arse raped us. I'm leaving when a good gig comes up and approaching my exit there will be delayed or canceled flights in expensive cities.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Of course there will....you tough old keyboard warrior.

[AllWobbly]

controlledrest

I wouldn’t hold your breath.

[Pickuptruck]

controlledrest

“When a good gig comes up”
Bwahahahaha
What I love about CX pilots, they have no idea what the rest of the aviation industry is paying. Jobs in the sandpit have been paying less and less since the late 1990s. China contract jobs getting harder and harder. Someone is in for a bit of a shock.

[dabz]

We're all in this industry together trying to make the most of it as pilots.

When the top paying jobs conditions are reduced we all lose 1 way or another.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x270/2wkaaztdhllcn4svrf7y5eappgyys77hocrcqm7aqj0_d9dce2fe4203e51c 1477c0f724029a2a14f6672c.jpg

[Pickuptruck]

T&C industry wide have been on a downward spiral for over 2 decades. Are you suggesting everybody refuses to take flying jobs and forces better pay? Bwahahahaha

[Slasher1]

Best post in a long while !

[Sam Ting Wong]

Nice story, and good on you, but not sure if it is a realistic option for older captains with bills to pay (me).

Direct-entry command maybe, but will they be available? And on what terms? What base?

[Piet Lood]

Just sell one of your many apartments to pay those bills.
Wasn’t it you who said we should think in solutions, not in problems?

[Sam Ting Wong]

I don't understand your hostility, Piet. You must see you are projecting your anger. I am not responsible for your misery, get that out of your sysyem. I am just honest. Money and rank is important to me, as it is for a lot of other guys. And I am looking for a solution, every day.

I will not trade my left hand seat for a right hand seat in a LCC, even if it is (closer) to home, and I doubt a lot of other guys will. This is not only about money, but also life-style, choice of base etc. Don't pretend it is a no-brainer to leave CX as a senior guy.
The market has changed, direct entry positions might be not be available any more even if hiring re-starts. They probably will hire their ex-captains first, if at all. I also would recommend you check the salary, work patterns and basing rules at those LCC, you might be in for a shock.

PS I am confused you are still in here. Didn't you say you would not sign over?

[Piet Lood]

And that had always been your problem: you have failed to understand and empathise with people in different sutuations than your own.
My anger comes from people like you who are willing to sell their soul and colleagues down the river for a few pieces of silver.
You bragged about being filthy rich on numerous occasions and now disparage people who are willing to see the forest beyond the trees.

Also, as expected , you deny me (and others) the right to post on fragrant harbour, because “they didn’t sign over”.
I would think people who have left can offer a unique perspective having been inside and looking from the outside in.
Feel free to ignore my inputs, but I will certainly not stand idly by while you are forcing your one-sided views on the younger generation.

You can rest a little easier however: you and I will never share a flightdeck any more.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Are you actually reading my posts? In your blind anger you are creating a fictious villain in your brain, nothing of what you said is remotely true.