Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

[Copenhagen]

Cuts, which sources say will be announced on Wednesday, are a quarter less than expected and smaller than the industry average

About 5,000 employees in Hong Kong could be let go, with future lay-offs possible if pandemic not brought under control
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3106279/cathay-pacific-axe-6000-staff-and-close-dragon-brand-bid

[Rie]

Looks like Danny has been speaking to pilots again... let’s just see if this one comes true.

[destiny78]

Yes dragonair will be axed.

[Just Do It]

If nothing else Destiny78 you can rest assured that after some years in the industry I have been exposed to some real wa$kers. Congratulations you have taken the Gold medal 🥇

[Shoebox]

If nothing else Destiny78 you can rest assured that after some years in the industry I have been exposed to some real wa$kers. Congratulations you have taken the Gold medal 🥇

He might be Danny boy.

[AllWobbly]

He might be Danny boy.

Well said couldn't agree mors

[CodyBlade]

He might be Danny boy.

good call bro...

[Angel 8]

Hmm... New name: Cathay Dragon Pacific

[TheGreenDragon]

Dragon “brand” to go . Thats all . Pilots will be retained , but no idea how cx will integrate them into the mainline operations. I think it will happen.

[cxorcist]

Dragon “brand” to go . Thats all . Pilots will be retained , but no idea how cx will integrate them into the mainline operations. I think it will happen.
So 500+ more pilots for CX to offer the sign or be fired PoS18 to... Lovely! Can’t wait for the morale to hit rock bottom. You think working at CX/KA sucked before, just wait for this... JCP/JCR squeezing every last penny out of a horrible contract. How many will leave? How many will stay under absolutely miserable conditions in the new CCP’s Hong Kong? 🤮 🤮 🤮

[Coronavirus]

So 500+ more pilots for CX to offer the sign or be fired PoS18 to... Lovely! Can’t wait for the morale to hit rock bottom. You think working at CX/KA sucked before, just wait for this... JCP/JCR squeezing every last penny out of a horrible contract. How many will leave? How many will stay under absolutely miserable conditions in the new CCP’s Hong Kong? 🤮 🤮 🤮

No one will leave yet.
Everyone will stay.
It's a pretty grim situation out there's not sure if you know anyone working for other airlines.
When the world gets better and airlines pickup, people will re-evaluate. But CX will most definitely never be short of staff.

[jumbobelle]

So 500+ more pilots for CX to offer the sign or be fired PoS18 to... Lovely! Can’t wait for the morale to hit rock bottom. You think working at CX/KA sucked before, just wait for this... JCP/JCR squeezing every last penny out of a horrible contract. How many will leave? How many will stay under absolutely miserable conditions in the new CCP’s Hong Kong? 🤮 🤮 🤮
Everyone who can, because they need to put bread on the table. There are plenty who can't out there at the moment.

[rustyoldtin]

Announcement already on the hub. Cathay Dragon to close

[JMock]

Yes dragonair will be axed.

au contraire, a Dragon rebrand is probs a positive commercial decision given the very active antipathy directed towards the airline on the Mainland.

[cxorcist]

No one will leave yet.
Everyone will stay.
It's a pretty grim situation out there's not sure if you know anyone working for other airlines.
When the world gets better and airlines pickup, people will re-evaluate. But CX will most definitely never be short of staff.
Well, if everyone stays, then redundancies are inevitable. CX definitely will not need 3800 pilots for quite some time. So everyone stays and gets the minimum payout from PoS18? Nice, time for wifey to get a job! Maybe the kids too, which works out since schools won’t be affordable. Helper goes home to Manila, and her family starves to death. Thank you China!

[doolay]

Are the redundancies following LIFO?

[fly1981]

Are the redundancies following LIFO?

since everybody will be signing cos18 I don’t see why not. Imagine that’s the reason it has been done the way it has.

[Will IB Fayed]

Are the redundancies following LIFO?

​​​​​​​yes.
however how many B scalers will leave??

[cxorcist]

Are the redundancies following LIFO?
Of course, the question is how many?

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Merlin finally turns on Kilgharrah ! Tis indeed a sad, sad day :D

[anxiao]

Ab Fab you've just upset an Economist magazine headline writer by stealing his idea... Very good.

At least it is out there now, nothing is worse than the wait. Best of luck guys.

[Absolutely Fabulous]

Ab Fab you've just upset an Economist magazine headline writer by stealing his idea... Very good.

At least it is out there now, nothing is worse than the wait. Best of luck guys.

HIS IDEA??? :=

[Bokpiel]

Well, if everyone stays, then redundancies are inevitable. CX definitely will not need 3800 pilots for quite some time. So everyone stays and gets the minimum payout from PoS18? Nice, time for wifey to get a job! Maybe the kids too, which works out since schools won’t be affordable. Helper goes home to Manila, and her family starves to death. Thank you China!

Nothing makes me happier than hearing how miserable you are. You deserve every bit of it. POES!

[drfaust]

Well boys it’s been real. Sad to see our company go under. On the other hand, I’m happy we weren’t forced through the whole COS18 saga AND redundancies later on anyway.

It is what it is. Collect the pay check, pack up things and go. It was good while it lasted.

All the best to you guys in CX!

[Freehills]

Classy sign off drfaust. Good luck and best wishes

[anxiao]

AbFab sorry pardon, that did not come out quite as I expected. I meant that he will not be able to use the Merlin meme now as you got it out first.

[BASHLH]

Are the redundancies following LIFO?

Do we know what will happen to based pilots in Aus & London after dec 31st?

My sympathies to all the Dragon staff, good luck to you all.

[Drc40]

So 500+ more pilots for CX to offer the sign or be fired PoS18 to... Lovely! Can’t wait for the morale to hit rock bottom. You think working at CX/KA sucked before, just wait for this... JCP/JCR squeezing every last penny out of a horrible contract. How many will leave? How many will stay under absolutely miserable conditions in the new CCP’s Hong Kong? 🤮 🤮 🤮

Mate. We knew HK was doomed when the chicomms took over. It’s lasted longer than I thought possible anyway. Hope everyone saved up since the writing was on the wall. Time to exit stage left and reintegrate in the non commie world.

[ACMS]

Do we know what will happen to based pilots in Aus & London after dec 31st?

My sympathies to all the Dragon staff, good luck to you all.


Well according the LIFO they will be fine. Bases especially Oz still cheaper than COS18.

[LLLQNH]

Do we know what will happen to based pilots in Aus & London after dec 31st?

My sympathies to all the Dragon staff, good luck to you all.

There is a growing feeling come Q2 2021 those bases (don't forget FRA, USA & Canada we have a lot of pilots there too!) will be downsized and or closed and the pilots returned to hkg on the new Cos18. Unless of course they do a deal to significantly lower their remuneration. Having said that they have been quite a bit cheaper than their Hong Kong Colleagues especially over the last few months so who knows! One things for certain this isn't over!!

[Angel 8]

If the bases aren’t affected by this, then it would be one hell of a task to re-validate all who’d not been flying for a long time.
That’s 4hrs SIM each (minimum), ALC, AEP, etc. etc.
I add my sympathy to those who lost, or about to loose their jobs, and wish you the best of luck for the future.

[NoAndThen]

Do any of you really think this is the end of the restructuring?? Losing 100-200 SO’s is nothing. This is just the beginning. Once everyone is on COS18 there are no LIFO redundancies. They will pick us off one by one and nothing you can do it about it. Good luck to us all.

[rhoshamboe]

Bokpiel,

You really are a c*nt.

[Vermin]

A sad day for all my former colleagues. As usual, the weak get it in the teeth and the rest carry on .

easier to completely close one airline down than managers try to negotiate the complexities of the 3 airline integration.

I wonder if the ka DFO and GMA ( PH and JT) have received their well deserved marching orders? One can only hope but I would assume they are far too important to sent home ( sarcastic smile on my face)

CX may receive a pay cut , or equivalent, but they ain't fired a single line pilot. And lots of China flying coming your way. Don’t miss that toxic hell hole.

On a brighter note, will letters be sent out to redundant ka pilots, offering them a new opportunity and future to fly the ( former ka) A320s for HKE? I wouldn’t put it past the swires to glory in the mire, and to have planned this . Oh well, I left a few years ago, and was glad hk was behind me . Was good fun, but we all must move on . Ka rip. Tragic .

[LLLQNH]

A sad day for all my former colleagues. As usual, the weak get it in the teeth and the rest carry on .

easier to completely close one airline down than managers try to negotiate the complexities of the 3 airline integration.

I wonder if the ka DFO and GMA ( PH and JT) have received their well deserved marching orders? One can only hope but I would assume they are far too important to sent home ( sarcastic smile on my face)

CX may receive a pay cut , or equivalent, but they ain't fired a single line pilot. And lots of China flying coming your way. Don’t miss that toxic hell hole.

On a brighter note, will letters be sent out to redundant ka pilots, offering them a new opportunity and future to fly the ( former ka) A320s for HKE? I wouldn’t put it past the swires to glory in the mire, and to have planned this . Oh well, I left a few years ago, and was glad hk was behind me . Was good fun, but we all must move on . Ka rip. Tragic .

If you don't count the 200 plus second officers as line pilots (who got their marching orders) then yeah your right no one got the boot....

[krismiler]

Best to be somewhere in the middle at the moment, not too senior and costing too much, nor to junior and disposable. S/Os are an easy target as they are only needed on long haul flights which will be the last to recover, they can be replaced by a F/O in the meantime and only need a quick P2X rating when the market picks up again.

If other airlines are an indication, expect significantly lower T&Cs on a "take it or leave it" basis. I'm currently on 45% of my previous income, have lost my fixed pattern roster, will be getting no pay leave each month starting next year and now get no extra for working an OFF day. However I consider myself lucky to still have a job and not be looking at a career change in my mid 50s.

Hopefully we can hang on and in 2 - 3 years time our conditions will improve.

[Flex88]

Ya'll remember the US BILLIONS these clowns flushed down the toilet re Fuel Hedging ?
Only 6 years ago, as the dollars re the above were still flying out the window, the geniuses on the 9th floor were pumping MILLIONS into an absolute "must do" rebranding effort like it was the most important thing in the world... I can't begin to justly articulate what I think of these morons !!

CX Boardroom - a row of fools on a row of stools 🤡

[doolay]

Best case scenario is a return to 50% of the schedule sometime in 2021. My guess is sadly another 1000-1500 to go. But it will be open season as LIFO is now permanently gone. No one will be safe. We are all just targets now.

[unitedabx]

What happened yesterday to Dragonair ( to give it it's proper title ) was appalling. In the past I have chastised it's pilots and union but no one deserved what was done yesterday and a good airline was simply "snuffed out". Good luck to all at KA.
For the rest in CX the DFO's letter says it all and gives away the furture plans. COS18 was always going to be the contract for all CX pilots by hook or by crook and Covid provided the perfect opportunity and CX took it. Without LIFO the company can introduce the next cuts as early as 1st Jan 2021. That will be the retirement of the 777 fleet and redundancy of all 777 pilots. No LIFO protection anymore. As you become more familiar with your new contract you will every area has been eroded. Medical, leave, sickness, retirement, pension, housing , education, promotion, C&T allowances and of course salary. Ask yourself "if I were starting out and looking at CX as a furure employer would I sign up to this COS18". Answer NO. But in the next 2 weeks everyone will. Hobsons Choice.

[ACMS]

If the bases aren’t affected by this, then it would be one hell of a task to re-validate all who’d not been flying for a long time.
That’s 4hrs SIM each (minimum), ALC, AEP, etc. etc.
I add my sympathy to those who lost, or about to loose their jobs, and wish you the best of luck for the future.

So? We are well setup to easily re-validate Pilots from anywhere with plenty of trainers and Sims available......it’s not a new event and has been done many times as per the training manual. Besides a lot of HK based Pilots are not current either...
Not as hard as you think. Sorry to disappoint but you haven’t gotten rid of all the pesky senior to you Pilots just yet...........

[Krone]

From the SCMP , 10 ka pilots are retained by cathay, to retrain others on the narrowbody’

Who are the “ others” they are referring to?
Who arethe lucky 10?
The 3rd floor sycophants?

When will the letters go out to laid off ka pilots inviting job applicants to a newly expanded hong kong Express?

Maybe a rebrand is in the air, for HKE , costing 100s of millions ?

i laugh when I think of all the wasted re branding of Dragonair over the last few years, to Cathay Dragon, that most pax were ambivalent about.

What a stupendous waste of human resources, time , money and effort. And Not a single boardmember takes any responsibility except their meaningless platitudes .

[LLLQNH]

So? We are well setup to easily re-validate Pilots from anywhere with plenty of trainers and Sims available......it’s not a new event and has been done many times as per the training manual. Besides a lot of HK based Pilots are not current either...
Not as hard as you think. Sorry to disappoint but you haven’t gotten rid of all the pesky senior to you Pilots just yet...........

I hope your right, I for one would hate to see any of the based crew go. Lots of good friends, good pilots and good people on the bases. But I'm really begging to wonder. The longer they leave them all sat there not flying and no indication of when they will even start the retraining process or of what that will
be can only mean one thing....

[Angel 8]

I ....... The longer they leave them all sat there not flying and no indication of when they will even start the retraining process or of what that will be can only mean one thing....

Base Closure?
I don’t think so, as that will cost them 6 months salary for those who don’t want to relocate to HKG.
They have to offer same salary (in HKD) AND all the benefits under CoS08, otherwise it’s constructive dismissal.

On the re-training: Yes it was done before, but not en masse. We’re talking about at least a 777 full of pilots staying in the headless hotel for a long time waiting to do SIMs and Line flying.

[MENELAUS]

Ok. Very shortly the only Veta employees are those on a base. And then they wrap up Veta as insolvent. Or something similar. And, the entity that employed you no longer exists. À la KA, and our unfortunate colleagues there. And bang goes LIFO ( which they achieved yesterday ) and having to retrain those pesky senior guys.
And good luck with litigation. Measured in years. By which stage your various AOA’s will be bankrupt.
They’ve patently thought this through very carefully.

[Oasis]

Ok. Very shortly the only Veta employees are those on a base. And then they wrap up Veta as insolvent. Or something similar. And, the entity that employed you no longer exists. À la KA, and our unfortunate colleagues there. And bang goes LIFO ( which they achieved yesterday ) and having to retrain those pesky senior guys.
And good luck with litigation. Measured in years. By which stage your various AOA’s will be bankrupt.
They’ve patently thought this through very carefully.

They could do that, but based crew are dirt cheap, even compared with hkg based cos18.
If anything they should increase the bases if they want to save money, and they do.

[MENELAUS]

They’re not cheaper on 80%\50% pay for doing sweet fanny adams.
Have you had a look at cos 18. ? Carefully ?

[BuzzBox]

They’re not cheaper on 80%\50% pay for doing sweet fanny adams...


How many pilots are sitting in HK doing sweet FA and getting paid 100% of their salary? I suspect it's a lot more than the total number of based pilots. You might want to watch your own backs...

[Oasis]

They’re not cheaper on 80%\50% pay for doing sweet fanny adams.
Have you had a look at cos 18. ? Carefully ?
Disclaimer: have not compared all Bases all ranks and a bit back of the envelope, but as I understand the numbers, if no-one is flying, London Captain base is a bit cheaper (about 10.000 pounds a year) to cx paying 80 rate of furlough, and at 85 hours flying London is a lot cheaper (by about 58000 pounds per year, the price of a second officer)
This looking at more than 4 year captain, no 13th month, no matching pension in hong kong, no profit share, london hdp.
So yes, it is cheaper now and it will be a lot cheaper again later, when flying picks up, in my humble estimation.

[MENELAUS]

Interesting. You’ve not compared it with cos 18. Which is sadly now the benchmark. There is no 13m. And no efp. And pf reduced

[MENELAUS]

Anyway. I don’t wish harm or misfortune on any of us. Based or not. As an observation, they have orchestrated this very carefully. And if they do require more people on a base, as they’re apparently so cost effective, on what terms ? Veta cos 18 ?

[Oasis]

Interesting. You’ve not compared it with cos 18. Which is sadly now the benchmark. There is no 13m. And no efp. And pf reduced
that’s why I said I didn’t add 13m, I didn’t even add the pf in Hong Kong, so the difference is even bigger. Efp still there in London, not Hong Kong.

Looks like you didn’t actually do the numbers.
That’s ok, I’ve got nothing better to do..

[MENELAUS]

that’s why I said I didn’t add 13m, I didn’t even add the pf in Hong Kong, so the difference is even bigger. Efp still there in London, not Hong Kong.

Looks like you didn’t actually do the numbers.
That’s ok, I’ve got nothing better to do..

believe me. I’ve done the numbers. Cos 18 is lcc rates for longhaul

[SanMig]

Don’t underestimate the power of the based unions. Most of them have been around for 10 years now, and in that time they have built up a significant war chest in case CX tried to close the base. They also have the backing of real labor laws which protect against over aggressive employers. Whatever tactic CX could come up with has already been tried before and precedent set through arbitration cases. Collective Agreements do expire and eventually allow for strike or lockout action, but that process can take months. It will be a long time before based go away.

[cabbages]

Don’t underestimate the power of the based unions.

Thanks for that SanMig......Whenever I need cheering up with a good laugh out loud, I'll know where to look.

[LLLQNH]

Ok. Very shortly the only Veta employees are those on a base. And then they wrap up Veta as insolvent. Or something similar. And, the entity that employed you no longer exists. À la KA, and our unfortunate colleagues there. And bang goes LIFO ( which they achieved yesterday ) and having to retrain those pesky senior guys.
And good luck with litigation. Measured in years. By which stage your various AOA’s will be bankrupt.
They’ve patently thought this through very carefully.

I believe this is correct! And I was reading some of the various base COS and they refer to return to hkg and what would happen if VETA ceased to exist, transfer and employment by CPA. So I agree it would seem that it wouldn't be that easy, I still think that the bases will be a thing of the past and all the guys and girls will be offered the chance to leave/retire or come to hkg and join us all on COS 18, yay...

[mngmt mole]

Bases are the next target. As everyone can appreciate, hundreds of pilots basically stood down, and still on the previous contracts is not a sustainable situation. Expect an announcement in the next weeks pertaining to the new strategy for bases. Expect closures and at the very least COS 18 terms.

[Flex88]

Wikipedia says KA had 3375 employees.. So if we believe SCMP plus others, there's 2625 more to go 🥺 Next...

[Drc40]

Thanks for that SanMig......Whenever I need cheering up with a good laugh out loud, I'll know where to look.

No kidding huh? Talk about living in fantasy land. Canada, or wherever, isn’t getting involved in CX union disputes...ever.

[Dragon Pacific]

I wonder how many 777 captains will take up the offer to come to HK on COS21 to fly the 321 Neo into China when bases are closed.

[Busbitch]

"mngmt mole" You're a fool & the very worst kind of person. Why would you go out of your way to stress out more of your colleagues and families at a time like this. The company stated in writing this week that bases will not be affected at this time & a basing review is currently not being conducted. Based Pilots are still the cheapest in the company. I would be far more concerned about the removal of seniority in Hong Kong. Then they can pick & choose, selecting vocal troublemaking idiots and people who spread stupid rumours first.

[Air Profit]

If you wish to call me a fool that is your prerogative. I think my comments over 30+ years suggests otherwise. I’m sorry, but I know what is coming. It’s best everyone prepares accordingly.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

I am still hopeful that bases will remain open, as it is the only exit strategy from that awful new "contract" for those in HK.
Nonetheless, if I were on a base, I'd be thinking about plan B now.
You can be certain that a basing review will be coming next.
How many will be kept open might depend on how many guys in HK decided to stay on cos18.
​​​​​
Up until 3 days ago, none of us thought those fu****s could get rid of all of KA. They've taken the opportunity to streamline the whole operation and bases have been a headache for a long time now.
​​​​​
​​​

[AviatorPac]

Base Closure?
I don’t think so, as that will cost them 6 months salary for those who don’t want to relocate to HKG.
They have to offer same salary (in HKD) AND all the benefits under CoS08, otherwise it’s constructive dismissal.

On the re-training: Yes it was done before, but not en masse. We’re talking about at least a 777 full of pilots staying in the headless hotel for a long time waiting to do SIMs and Line flying.
Do they have to offer COS 08? I only ask as I have flown with some Aus based captains who were coming back pre-covid who said that going forward anyone coming back was COS 18 although I may have miss understood them.

[fatbus]

UK/AUs/CAN /US have "forced majeure "? Basically union contracts mean nothing. Hoping for the best expecting the worst . Good luck boys !

[GTC58]

tel:10909935]10909935]UK/AUs/CAN ([url) /US have "forced majeure "? Basically union contracts mean nothing. Hoping for the best expecting the worst . Good luck boys !

First of all it is called “force majeure” and this clause has to be in the contract.

This is not true for CAN and US. Can’t comment on the other bases.

CBA’s are valid until expiration date. All the base contracts have provisions for base closure and/or reduction in positions. CX could have closed the bases or reduce positions if they wanted to, but at the moment CX decided not to do this

The North American base CBA’s can be renegotiated in 2021, as such it is entirely possible CX is planning to negotiate concessions similar to those in COS18.

So please stop with all your uneducated guesses and statements about base labour laws and contracts. It is clear to me that some of the above posters have absolutely no idea how first world labor laws work. An employer can not ignore them as they wish without facing the consequences.

[fatbus]

It was a question ! Also very informed /educated on contract law just not CX . I'll retract the " good luck" to my CX brethren! And spell check the "d"

[Farman Biplane]

AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.

[doolay]

AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.

incorrect.

[Busbitch]

HK pilots still getting up to $68k per month in housing for the next two years or at least HKPA, plus many have kids at DBIS or AUS international school or boarding school O/S. Based guys get salary and health insurance, that's it. Headland hotel & it's allowances are also cheaper than most layovers. Why would you bring em back to HK (as per COS), it makes no sense. They can also be stood down on zero or partial pay indefinitely.

[hkgfooey]

HK pilots still getting up to $68k per month in housing for the next two years or at least HKPA, plus many have kids at DBIS or AUS international school or boarding school in O/S.

They are temporary transitional benefits only for current HKG based pilots. If based pilots come back they will return on the the prevailing contract which is COS18 on local terms, which means 30K housing, schooling capped, no PRI4, reduced annual leave, no repatriation flights, no repatriation of goods, reduced medical, reduced provident fund, and they will also have to pay for their own return to HKG and for the shipping of their goods. COS18 is a local package, all expat benefits removed.

[Blue Bag Bitch]

Pointing fingers at each other in this situation solves absolutely nothing.

[doolay]

Get used to it. This is what happens when there is no seniority/LIFO career protection. Everybody is a target. And everybody is desperately pointing out any other targets, anyone except them.

[ACMS]

AUS based CN are now more expensive than equivalent COS18 HK based CN.


No they are NOT. I carefully ran the comparison last night between the top scale for Cos18 ( Captain 4 ) and the top scale for Oz base ( year 17 CN ) both flying 84 hours a month on the A330/350. The Cos18 came out at $1,700 AUD month MORE than the base. That was calculated using 15.5% PF for base, 10% for Cos18 and it DID NOT consider any expat allowances or 13th month in HK which obviously makes it worse again.

The base is cheaper still.

I suggest you actually run some real World contract numbers and see for yourself.

I then ran the same comparison for an FO, the based FO is around $550 AUD a month cheaper as well.

[AllWobbly]

A thoughtful and kind post well said. One can only imagine the devastation CX have caused.

[OK4Wire]

ACMS, did you add in the HKD33,000 monthly allowance into the equation?

And by 84 hours, did you mean "about 70" block hours for COS18?

[MENELAUS]

No they are NOT. I carefully ran the comparison last night between the top scale for Cos18 ( Captain 4 ) and the top scale for Oz base ( year 17 CN ) both flying 84 hours a month on the A330/350. The Cos18 came out at $1,700 AUD month MORE than the base. That was calculated using 15.5% PF for base, 10% for Cos18 and it DID NOT consider any expat allowances or 13th month in HK which obviously makes it worse again.

The base is cheaper still.

I suggest you actually run some real World contract numbers and see for yourself.

I then ran the same comparison for an FO, the based FO is around $550 AUD a month cheaper as well.

The problem with that rationale is that Cos18 is a productivity based contract. And impinges on PF and everything else.
None of us will be flying anywhere near 84 ( block or otherwise) hrs for the foreseeable future. Let alone 45 hrs. So at the point of cutover, ie next month, a level 4 cn here in HKG on effectively local terms, will be cheaper than his based counterpart ( transition arrangements for ARAPA and CEA aside, and that was only done to prevent a complete meltdown). And that’s what they’ll look at. Along with LSL, and just being a general thorn in their sides and not worth the candle. Note that I take no pleasure in this. Just pointing out that they’ve achieved NR’s dream and got us all on local terms. So I would definitely expect the worst. And
I wouldn’t place too much hope on 1st world courts. They will have bigger fish to fry once the collateral damage from the pandemic has kicked in.

[ACMS]

The problem with that rationale is that Cos18 is a productivity based contract. And impinges on PF and everything else.
None of us will be flying anywhere near 84 hrs for the foreseeable future. Let alone 45 hrs. So at the point of cutover, ie next month, a level 4 cn here in HKG on effectively local terms, will be cheaper than his based counterpart. And that’s what they’ll look at. Along with LSL, and just being a general thorn in their sides and not worth the candle. Note that I take no pleasure in this. Just pointing out that they’ve achieved NR’s dream and got us all on local terms. So I would definitely expect the worst. And
I wouldn’t place too much hope on 1st world courts. They will have bigger fish to fry once the collateral damage from the pandemic has kicked in.


No again, Oz based Pilots are stood down on 50% plus the Govt pays Cx job keeper. Stood down until flying improves....So by March 2021 they will have been on 50% a whole year......A very BIG saving to Cx.
The Oz based Pilots have made a huge sacrifice for the company and probably will for a bit longer.....

Oh and a HK Captain 4 doing zero hours still gets up to $33K a month housing and possibly Education allowances as well on top of the base salary......... So tell me how Oz based are more expensive on a paltry 50% moving forward until flying increases?

This is not about HKG v Oz base ( or any other base ) Pilots......but don’t tell me Oz bases aren’t cheap, they most certainly are for what Cx get.

[MENELAUS]

Well then, we should all be grateful for your
sacrifice.

[ACMS]

Well then, we should all be grateful for your
sacrifice.


We aren’t asking you to be grateful mate, just keep it real and compare Apples with Apples.

Based Pilots didn’t take a base to make money.......

[Oasis]

Boy, there are some really nasty people here.

[Dilbert68]

To ACMS and all the other based crew. I truly hope there is some way you can keep your base, life in HK was never great but the package made it tenable.

This new contract makes it virtually impossible for a FO with two school age kids move to HK. 22k for housing will not go far and you can expect to pay about 20k per month to top up the inadequate school allowances, this is without considering debentures, uniforms or field trips, those will be extra. Now take a look at your base pay rate, unless you are on the 747, that is all you will see for the next 12-24 months. Can you even break even? I don't think you can.

God forbid you or one of your family members get sick, you will be faced with a very significant bill due to completely inadequate medical benefits.

I wish you all the best but I don't see any future here.

[OK4Wire]

Sorry, ACMS, normally I would agree with you but not on this. Disregarding the current stand down on 50%, if both bases are doing no flying, the Aus CN is about HK30k more expensive. Base+15.5% vs Base+10%+housing. 5.5 for the exchange.

[BubbaJ]

Jesus! Let it Go FFS

We are all F@#$d one way or another

Thoughts to all the hard slogging KA guys that just lost everything :-(

[Silk_flyer1980]

Whats great about COS18 rev 1?
No bypass pay,
No maternity Leave policy,
No compassionate leave policy,
No redundancy package,
No contractual FTL obligations,
No seniority benefits,
Capped and limited medical benefit,
A restaurant manager's salary. Even ISM earns more than year 1 pilot.
And great thing is its not temporary to help us get us through the pandemic. This contract is permanent! Fantastic!

[Pratt]

Sitting here in disbelief. Never in my life and career as pilot did I ever think I would come across, what I believe to be fellow aviators, arguing over who is the CHEAPEST. Just goes to show where we, yes all of us have taken this industry!!

[ACMS]

Sitting here in disbelief. Never in my life and career as pilot did I ever think I would come across, what I believe to be fellow aviators, arguing over who is the CHEAPEST. Just goes to show where we, yes all of us have taken this industry!!


True, I didn’t start the topic of base costs..........but I’m just sick of people taking the opportunity to stick the knife into Bases AGAIN.

[ACMS]

Sorry, ACMS, normally I would agree with you but not on this. Disregarding the current stand down on 50%, if both bases are doing no flying, the Aus CN is about HK30k more expensive. Base+15.5% vs Base+10%+housing. 5.5 for the exchange.


While there is little flying task we are all doing nothing, HK will effectively be on exactly 55% pay plus their expat allowances and Oz based are on 50% ( actually 40% after jobkeeper )
That is what the situation is now becoming for HK and has been for 7 months for the base.

In 12 months time things will hopefully mean we can do some hours and then you’ll be comparing Apples with Apples again showing based are cheaper. Remember they can continue to stand Oz based down as long as they like on 50% or even less.......

ok.

[main_dog]

Sitting here in disbelief. Never in my life and career as pilot did I ever think I would come across, what I believe to be fellow aviators, arguing over who is the CHEAPEST. Just goes to show where we, yes all of us have taken this industry!!

AMEN. Like scared lab mice in a cage, all of us: take him, take him! He’s fatter!

[flyboy007]

If the figures are so close people are arguing over them, then it won't come down to $ anyway; it'll come down to control. And we know how that will go....

[ACMS]

ACMS, did you add in the HKD33,000 monthly allowance into the equation?

And by 84 hours, did you mean "about 70" block hours for COS18?

No, I didn’t add in any EXPAT benefits for HK. I also targeted 84 hours for both.

it’s not that hard to add up with the pay scales data tables in Cos18 and EBA 2020.

[Landflap]

Oasis : Your post =80=. What we have been saying about the Harbour for years. But, heard of same behavior when Eagle went. Heard the same of Court, Channel, BUA/Cally and Lakerr. Saw the same of AE. The "nasty" side surfaces in human behavior when self preservation becomes the driver. Another bad side is "smugness" when it all settles . That bit can lead to many an ugly bar-brawl. No winners in any of this. Very nasty times indeed.

[Piet Lood]

Sitting here in disbelief. Never in my life and career as pilot did I ever think I would come across, what I believe to be fellow aviators, arguing over who is the CHEAPEST. Just goes to show where we, yes all of us have taken this industry!!
I, for one, am amazed it took you this long to realise we have been fighting over scraps, while the plantation owners have increased their bonuses a hundred+-fold over the past decades and laughing all the way to the bank.
AT owns a mansion in Tuscany, while destroying the department she headed and also the morale of the people in it.
We’re in the wrong business and have been for years, but we accepted it without taking a stand.
We have created this mess ourselves, that I agree with.

[AllWobbly]

Jesus! Let it Go FFS

We are all F@#$d one way or another

Thoughts to all the hard slogging KA guys that just lost everything :-(

Thankyou. Welcome to the back blocks of the prc take it easy out there

[Oasis]

Oasis : Your post =80=. What we have been saying about the Harbour for years. But, heard of same behavior when Eagle went. Heard the same of Court, Channel, BUA/Cally and Lakerr. Saw the same of AE. The "nasty" side surfaces in human behavior when self preservation becomes the driver. Another bad side is "smugness" when it all settles . That bit can lead to many an ugly bar-brawl. No winners in any of this. Very nasty times indeed.

You have a point, nothing is more human.
Crabs in a bucket comes to mind.

[pfvspnf]

Extra security for her mansion ?

[Flex88]

Keep it real folks, it is what it is !!

YOU HAVE BEEN BENCHMARKED, NOT against tier 1 airlines as CX purports and charges for but Air Asia X....... The FAT LADY HAS SUNG ‼️
Get your calculator, do your sums, make a plan, ACT‼️

Cut your losses, CX is not worth it.
BTW, if you think ANY if the arrogant knobs 3rd floor or higher will be switching to the “same” Cos18 you are, go straight to the asylum and check in‼️( not covered in the pathetic excuse of a medical plan)

[cabbages]

'Cut your losses, CX is not worth it.'

I think many of the expats left in CX after this week are busy running the numbers to see how viable it is to get out now. The company has been sat on this for months and yet, such is their contempt, the flight crew are given days to make life changing decisions. No extension says the DFO, sign or termination. Of course after 1 November any further severance packages will be based on our new budget CoS, rock bottom basic salaries with no repatriation allowances. Brilliant CK! Force everyone onto a COS20 and then fire them anyway on cheaper terms.

[Silk_flyer1980]

You got to admit it was bloody good plan! The same day you fire thousands of employees, you offer substandard contracts to those who stayed. That way those who were allowed to stay will feel grateful, and will sign anything even if its to give up their kids.

[hkgfooey]

'Cut your losses, CX is not worth it.'

I think many of the expats left in CX after this week are busy running the numbers to see how viable it is to get out now. The company has been sat on this for months and yet, such is their contempt, the flight crew are given days to make life changing decisions. No extension says the DFO, sign or termination. Of course after 1 November any further severance packages will be based on our new budget CoS, rock bottom basic salaries with no repatriation allowances. Brilliant CK! Force everyone onto a COS20 and then fire them anyway on cheaper terms.

The maximum possible statutory severance package under the employment ordnance is $390,000, and that money is offset against the P-Fund https://www.labour.gov.hk/eng/faq/cap57l_whole.htm#q9

Ask the ex-KA employees, they only received the minimum statuary severance payment (from their P-fund), all benefits immediately terminated, no medical, no repatriation flights, no repatriation of belongings.

[mngmt mole]

Having "run the numbers" it's quite obvious that anyone beyond a 21 yr old single SO will find it almost impossible to make ends meet, especially if they are married with family. It is of particular concern when you realise that few if any of us will be able to fly a full roster for the next year or two at best, thereby ensuring very minimal pay amounts for at least that time period. There is also the question of very inadequate health care, which again is putting anyone with a family in a potentially very dire situation with any serious illness. That raises the question: other than building time for the less experienced pilots, what on earth is the point of staying in HK/CX when you will almost certainly be going backwards financially every month? Comments...

[Asturias56]

what's the alternative? You won't get a job anywhere else for years.

Make do and mend - which may mean a very drastic change in your & your family's life-style or retire I guess

[Flex88]

Having "run the numbers" it's quite obvious that anyone beyond a 21 yr old single SO will find it almost impossible to make ends meet, especially if they are married with family. It is of particular concern when you realise that few if any of us will be able to fly a full roster for the next year or two at best, thereby ensuring very minimal pay amounts for at least that time period. There is also the question of very inadequate health care, which again is putting anyone with a family in a potentially very dire situation with any serious illness. That raises the question: other than building time for the less experienced pilots, what on earth is the point of staying in HK/CX when you will almost certainly be going backwards financially every month? Comments...

Other than the experience of going bankrupt, there is not one ‼️

[Flex88]

what's the alternative? You won't get a job anywhere else for years.

Make do and mend - which may mean a very drastic change in your & your family's life-style or retire I guess

Is taking your "family" down the road to massive debt then bankruptcy "making do ?"

[triple7driver]

The maximum possible statutory severance package under the employment ordnance is $390,000, and that money is offset against the P-Fund

Ask the ex-KA employees, they only received the minimum statuary severance payment (from their P-fund), all benefits immediately terminated, no medical, no repatriation flights, no repatriation of belongings.


Is that true? They didn't even get their P-fund? No retiree staff travel? Wow... I thought they at least got made redundant.... so 6 months salary etc....

[FlyingNun]

There is an alternative.
Stand up in Court and fight for our deserved rights.
one should not sign to CoS18, instead, challenge it in court.

[Curry Lamb]

There is an alternative.
Stand up in Court and fight for our deserved rights.
one should not sign to CoS18, instead, challenge it in court.

Like my teen would say - LMFAO

[UNEASY]

Does anyone have reliable info on the severance package for the Cathay Dragon pilots?
Very sad situation indeed. My heart goes out to them. Totally undeserved!

[mngmt mole]

I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.

[icemankk2001]

more than 90% will sign the new COS..... or maybe 98%.

[Farman Biplane]

Simples!
They need about 500 pilots to fly the Dragon routes in the narrowbody and avoid rostering over the monthly block hours number that is included in basic pay.
So, 500 retrained onto A320/1/neo, starting with the Training Ban breaking hero trainers.
The other 500 are terminated from COS18 with no LIFO/seniority early next year after the 2021 First Quarter review that reveals the already stated maximum of 25% of normal schedules to be flown due to continuing effects of COVID.

[LLLQNH]

So, 500 retrained onto A320/1/neo, starting with the Training Ban breaking hero trainers.
The other 500 are terminated from COS18 with no LIFO/seniority early next year after the 2021 First Quarter review that reveals the already stated maximum of 25% of normal schedules to be flown due to continuing effects of COVID.

I don't think so. My guess some 777 crew will be sent to the "airbus" But now the airbus fleet will be split in two! A330/A350 and A330/A321 it's very easy to do A330/321 easier than A330/A350 it would actually be like when we had and flew the A340 it will be a real ccq not what we do with the A350 (which we all know is actually not like the A330 at all) They might even some how get away with A350/A321 they will give that to the Australian base crew just to P*** them off so
they can do an 8 day pattern!

[Freehills]

Is taking your "family" down the road to massive debt then bankruptcy "making do ?"

time to go ‘home’ and deliver pizza/ stack shelves until something better comes up. Assuming home is somewhere civilised with socialised healthcare. Americans and S Africans don’t have that even to fall back on.

[SloppyJoe]

I know this will never happen but it's not us who are on the back foot it is the company. The amount they are losing each month is astronomical. Imagine if all the cockpit and cabin crew went on strike as there was no consultation. We all would have accepted 50%, maybe even 25% as know the **** has really hit the fan. This would have been a TEMPORARY concession, one year then reviewed. It would have saved even more money than this contract change. What they have done is destroyed all of our futures in one day. It is Cathay who are in the ****, not us, now is the time to fight back as they cant afford to lose more money by shutting down what little they have. I know, never going to happen, a shame as they would have no choice.

[bacou]

Is that true? They didn't even get their P-fund? No retiree staff travel? Wow... I thought they at least got made redundant.... so 6 months salary etc....
No that's not true,

we got our contractual 3/6 months salary payments and a Goodwill bonus reduced by the amount of the Statutory Severance Payment
For me it's around 15 months of COS 18 basic salary if I was offered to sign and 8 months of my October basic salary.
Not as good as Singapore airlines but they said it's the best they can do.

[krismiler]

Aer Lingus pilots took a big pay cut BUT had the provision that it would be restored once normality returns. However they are in a country with European labour laws and protections.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/0617/1148093-aer-lingus-pilots/

[Progress Wanchai]

No, I didn’t add in any EXPAT benefits for HK. I also targeted 84 hours for both.

it’s not that hard to add up with the pay scales data tables in Cos18 and EBA 2020.


I’ve no interest in comparing one base against another, but the flaws in your numbers need to be addressed so that people can fully understand what they’re faced with in regards to COS18.

There is no factoring for block hours in COS18. No scheduled or better. No credit for sims, EP’s, sick leave, annual leave, etc. Previously it was possible for a pilot to achieve 84 credit hours a month, month in month out for the entire year. For a COS18 pilot to now achieve 84 hours a month they’d have to fly 1008 hours annually. Obviously impossible for a number of reasons. So let’s take the rare pilot that bounces of their AFTL limits. That averages out to 75 hours a month.

But DFO after DFO have complained that due to all sorts of reasons the average pilot does less than 700 hours a year. Let’s bump that up a bit and call it 60 hours a month. Look at your own logbooks over a 10 year period, divide the total hours flown by 120, then the resulting answer is the figure you need to put into the COS18 formula, not 84.

The real savings in COS18 is not the pilot bouncing off COS08 EFP limits or AFTL limits. It’s the average pilot doing his average workload as assigned by some individual in crew scheduling.

[controlledrest]

No that's not true,

we got our contractual 3/6 months salary payments and a Goodwill bonus reduced by the amount of the Statutory Severance Payment
For me it's around 15 months of COS 18 basic salary if I was offered to sign and 8 months of my October basic salary.
Not as good as Singapore airlines but they said it's the best they can do.

I suspect you have done very well. Once the remainder of us are on POS18 they will work out how many airframes will be flying and how many pilots they need. Then the real cull will start, hundreds sacked, no LIFO, minimum payout, make your own way home.

[Slasher1]

I suspect you have done very well. Once the remainder of us are on POS18 they will work out how many airframes will be flying and how many pilots they need. Then the real cull will start, hundreds sacked, no LIFO, minimum payout, make your own way home.

That's the scheme. A concocted way to get around contractural responsibilities of required payout and layoff in order of seniority of an existing contract. It's not particularly clever and easy to see through.

In other jurisdictions, this would likely be adjudicated as fraudulent. And there would be contractual remedies and potential prosecution. In HKG, who knows ?

[Flex88]

I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.

To answer your question, fu**ing nothing... 25 years of a feckless HKAOA and near 100% apathy from the Flight Crew and this is what you get... Sad, yes. Expected, absolutely!!

[Flex88]

That's the scheme. A concocted way to get around contractural responsibilities of required payout and layoff in order of seniority of an existing contract. It's not particularly clever and easy to see through.

In other jurisdictions, this would likely be adjudicated as fraudulent. And there would be contractual remedies and potential prosecution. In HKG, who knows ?

"Who knows"? You all do, in HK - you're SOL 🧐. 20+ years too late to take a stand☹️

[Blue Bag Bitch]

I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.

And this is why exactly no one should sign a g0dd&mn thing. Force their hand. If they have to LIFO a few hundred more, so be it. It is the only way.

[veritas777]

And this is why exactly no one should sign a g0dd&mn thing. Force their hand. If they have to LIFO a few hundred more, so be it. It is the only way.

I'll have some of what you're having, thanks.

[Shoebox]

I'll have some of what you're having, thanks.

What, balls?

[bacou]

I suspect you have done very well. Once the remainder of us are on POS18 they will work out how many airframes will be flying and how many pilots they need. Then the real cull will start, hundreds sacked, no LIFO, minimum payout, make your own way home.

Even if I find the way they have dealt with KA employees unfair and can't understand how you save money training pilots and cabin crew on A320 when you already have crews trained on them.
I understand the hard choice you're facing and we might have had the best deal: No thinking take the money and go .
All the best for the future

[wongsuzie]

Zuki says 80% of the 2000 scaked CC wont sign.

Lets see when push comes to shove.

[veritas777]

What, balls?

And no housing, too.

[Asturias56]

time to go ‘home’ and deliver pizza/ stack shelves until something better comes up. Assuming home is somewhere civilised with socialised healthcare. Americans and S Africans don’t have that even to fall back on.


I'm afraid Freehills is right - when things change so dramatically sometimes what you are left with is ... no choice. In employment terms for pilots this is like a real tsunami. or an earthquake - EVRYTHING is gone and you're luck to be still breathing. The past life is wiped out except as a memory - all you can do is to look forward. You might be lucky and get some help but don't bet on it.

And as for trying to sue "someone" who has no money for recompense... good luck

[ACMS]

I’ve no interest in comparing one base against another, but the flaws in your numbers need to be addressed so that people can fully understand what they’re faced with in regards to COS18.

There is no factoring for block hours in COS18. No scheduled or better. No credit for sims, EP’s, sick leave, annual leave, etc. Previously it was possible for a pilot to achieve 84 credit hours a month, month in month out for the entire year. For a COS18 pilot to now achieve 84 hours a month they’d have to fly 1008 hours annually. Obviously impossible for a number of reasons. So let’s take the rare pilot that bounces of their AFTL limits. That averages out to 75 hours a month.

But DFO after DFO have complained that due to all sorts of reasons the average pilot does less than 700 hours a year. Let’s bump that up a bit and call it 60 hours a month. Look at your own logbooks over a 10 year period, divide the total hours flown by 120, then the resulting answer is the figure you need to put into the COS18 formula, not 84.

The real savings in COS18 is not the pilot bouncing off COS08 EFP limits or AFTL limits. It’s the average pilot doing his average workload as assigned by some individual in crew scheduling.

yes fair point, I hadn’t considered no factoring for Cos 18... but they do get credit for Sims I thought? Didn’t Cx cough that up recently?

Anyway that does make a difference BUT we still don’t get Expat benefits...

Point taken though.

[Whiteteanosugar]

RTPC no credit nor allowance as they are regulatory. Only CW or any other form of crew up will have a fixed allowance.

yes fair point, I hadn’t considered no factoring for Cos 18... but they do get credit for Sims I thought? Didn’t Cx cough that up recently?

Anyway that does make a difference BUT we still don’t get Expat benefits...

Point taken though.

[krismiler]

Hopefully the company will look after any Australian crew stranded in Hong Kong if they are terminated as there are are strict limits on the numbers allowed to return.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/COVID-19/trying-get-home

[cabbages]

Don’t forget to put a few dollars aside from your ‘competative’ CoS20 salaries to top up your ‘competitive’ CX health cover plans. The basic cover, especially for F/O and S/O, looks wafer thin. Fingers crossed your spouse or kids don’t get sick.

[quadspeed]

You've got to hand it to these guys, they're certainly not letting a good crisis go to waste.

Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.

​​​​​​With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.

​​​

[Blue Bag Bitch]

Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?

[quadspeed]

Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?

They don't care one way or the other. They'll either get your signature or resignation by the deadline. There is no third option.

​​​​

[Slasher1]

Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?

Mostly because people get scared and when they do they buy into crap to try to cling to a portion of what they used to have.

In the HKG arena (which isn't necessarily the case elsewhere) it comes down to enforceability. CAN you recover damages for a termination based on a scam to get rid of a seniority based layoff system (as well as the 6 month pay protection)--simply changing it to a two step process (a person isn't directly laid off on the old contract where LIFO applies -- he is forced to transition to a NEW contract and THEN laid off at will where LIFO doesn't apply; and when this happens he also forfeits the original pay protected six months) ? Dunno. In most developed nations this would be seen to be what it actually is by a third party who'd adjudicate it accordingly (especially after a company refused government stimulus with the specific intent of altering an existing in-force contract). Which is why most carriers in those nations don't do this (instead having some form of early out package for force reduction as well as negotiating an amendment to their contract which might provide a time period to go at reduced capacity/pay while preserving seniority and everything else. And if layoffs are required beyond this doing so IAW the contract with the associated recall rights).

What I suspect most in HKG are doing is believing (rightly or wrongly) that it won't happen to THEM and that they'll at least get something out of the deal. Looking at the shiny transition period (where they might get some continued income and housing) without realizing that could end abruptly too. Is it the right choice ? Depends on the individual. I would hope they're weighing the negative aspects of living under the conditions they are (with time and opportunities elsewhere that aren't recoverable; those opportunities perhaps being there albeit perhaps in a different career field) with the uncertainty they inject into their lives by choosing to sign over.

[mngmt mole]

Well, objectively speaking, there is no career at CX anymore. It's quite incredible to conclude that I went from working for arguably the best airline in the world to now one of the worst. The reality is that there is probably no way back from this. Either everyone refuses to sign and it heads to the courts, or (as I suspect), the majority will roll over prior to the 28th and effectively "volunteer" for the change to their contracts. You can earn almost 2 1/2 times as much with some of the mainland based carriers....that should help illuminate the reality of where CX has taken all of us. If you are under 55 (and certainly if married), there is really no way forward with this airline. I would spend my time updating my resume and considering almost any other job, particularly back home. Sadly, they have pulled the entire rug out from underneath us. It was good while it lasted...

nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...

[AllWobbly]

Well, objectively speaking, there is no career at CX anymore. It's quite incredible to conclude that I went from working for arguably the best airline in the world to now one of the worst. The reality is that there is probably no way back from this. Either everyone refuses to sign and it heads to the courts, or (as I suspect), the majority will roll over prior to the 28th and effectively "volunteer" for the change to their contracts. You can earn almost 2 1/2 times as much with some of the mainland based carriers....that should help illuminate the reality of where CX has taken all of us. If you are under 55 (and certainly if married), there is really no way forward with this airline. I would spend my time updating my resume and considering almost any other job, particularly back home. Sadly, they have pulled the entire rug out from underneath us. It was good while it lasted...

nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...

I find myself more in agreement with you every day. The raping of ka was a brutal prelude to the campaign now being waged at cx. The veiled threat about back filling vacancies from people who have left the group would indicate a long and orchestrated litany of lies to reach this stage. The theme is ”you have no choice and a contract is no.longer enforcable” the doomsday scenario of offering redundant crews jobs (where on earth else can the locals go to feed their families) is the final nightmarish scenario pitting pilot against pilot.
Next step hive off lower yield routes to express rinse and repeat what happened at ka.

[krismiler]

SQ used to have expat contracts with housing and schooling allowances, that ended a few years ago. There are still foreigners employed but everyone is on the same terms. There are no bases but some Malaysians commute. Living costs in Singapore are a bit lower than Hong Kong, especially housing if you are a local.

Pay cuts have been agreed but these are temporary and include senior management. No doubt that CX are taking full advantage of this once in a lifetime crisis and intend to have T&Cs determined by market forces going forward. Soon, only the ME3 will have expat packages and even those are being reduced.

My mob recently got rid of 25% of flight crew and even with that we're still planning on having a surplus for the next three years, once demand picks up it's probably another year of getting those who want to return back online. External recruitment very unlikely before 2025 and then they can be very picky about who they take on.

With long haul premium and transit traffic likely to be the last to recover, I can't see CX planning on carrying a huge pilot surplus for the next 4 - 5 years, even on the new contract, whilst every other major airline is laying off 20 - 35% of their pilots. I think Slasher has got it right, sign the new contract or you're out, which gets rid of a few. Once the new contract is inplace, lay off those you want to get rid of under terms favourable to the company. Carry a small excess of pilots in the meantime and when you need to recruit again, they'll come running for whatever's on offer.

Doesn't matter if they overshoot with the layoffs as there will be plenty of suitable candidates around who can quickly be brought back online.

[Bangaluru]

You've got to hand it to these guys, they're certainly not letting a good crisis go to waste.

Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.

​​​​​​With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.

​​​

Watching them play the long game makes me smile. Even though I’m pucked like everyone else.

[AllWobbly]

Watching them play the long game makes me smile. Even though I’m pucked like everyone else.

They could well lose the roll of the dice even with the cuts they are still bleeding and CX is a essentially British company in China. What will differentiate them from China Southern or Air China in the long term?
How will this impact the international schools, property market and so on? All of which affects people’s view of the place and their choice of where to live and work. Singapore is starting to look like a better place to be.

[cxorcist]

Singapore is starting to look like a better place to be.
Every banker and venture capitalist is thinking the exact same thing. If you want to be in China, go to China. If you want to be outside China, Hong Kong can no longer help you.

[CodyBlade]

Singapore is starting to look like a better place to be.

every venture capalist lookin at Singapore?

Not so fast read what happened to James Dyson.Came into Singapore with fanfare to open electric car factory.Now cancelled and sold his penthouse at 13% lost.'Dyson kills Singapore electric car project with closure of auto division"
"Vacuum cleaner billionaire James Dyson sold Singapore's most expensive penthouse for $47 million — that's $7 million less than what he paid for it a year ago"

[icemankk2001]

for those who think Singapore will be better than HK.... please wake up. try it for yourself if you dare. its about time CX pilots look outside and compare their salaries. still way higher and better than others. i hope nobody will sign the new terms but in reality it will be high percentage ppl are signing.

[Shoebox]

The grass is definitely not greener in the 'Garden City'. SQ got rid of a handful of non-PR pilots. No LIFO. Meanwhile everyone else takes a temporary pay cut to save themselves. 'Union' not a word for the non-PRs who lost their jobs.

As for Singapore, they are a nationalistic xenophobic nation with more CANNOTS than HK.

[CodyBlade]

As for Singapore, they are a nationalistic xenophobic nation with more CANNOTS than HK.

you know Lion city very well.

Outsiders will do well not to believe the shiny brochures.. Caveat Emptor

[cabbages]

You have to hand it to the DFO. He has achieved what his predecessors could only ever dream of. A frightened, compliant flight crew, queuing up to sign over to permanently worse conditions. S/O's and F/O's can now look forward to a 'competitive' 2 point pay scale for the next decade or two. At least he cannot use the old ' but you get an annual increment …' excuse when refusing your next rise.

Here's to your bonus Chris....Its gonna be a whooper!!!

[Flex88]

I used lower case M when I wrote management for a reason ! CC was chosen as DFO for a reason, he was the most pliable sycophant they could find.. Also had picked were the other row of fools on the 3rd fl following the last "Project Altitude" and all for the same reason. That organisational structure, BTW, designed by the wife of one of the "management team" ...
They all would have been actively involved in this pathetic excuse of a "solution" and reveling in the dopamine and adrenaline of its implementation... It's a POWER thing.

All will suffer drastically in this endeavour EXCEPT them.. If they tell you different - they are the Devil incarnate and will suffer when their time comes👹

[SaulGoodman]

Question from an outsider: if you are a 10 year FO and you refuse to sign. What will be your severance pay roughly?

[mngmt mole]

I believe it would be three months basic salary, but am open to being corrected on that.

[SaulGoodman]

that’s ridiculous!

[bm330]

Welcome to Hong Kong labor standards.
Three months notice or pay in lieu - no cause is required other than employer whim.

[Freehills]

Better than the UK. Legal redundancy payout for someone at the age of 40 with 10 years would be 10 weeks, but capped at 538 pounds a week, so 5,380. Higher if you are older.

[Oddball77]

https://www.malaymail.com/news/money/2020/10/23/cathay-pacifics-permanent-pilot-pay-cuts-draconian-and-short-sighted-says-u/1915583

[icemankk2001]

what the news did not mentioned was the lower contract pays still way above industry standard. look around you. news media always one sided story

[mngmt mole]

When you factor in the real cost of living in HK, the new contract is not sustainable (especially if you have a family). Maybe in Taiwan it would work, but not here. Take note, thank you.

[SOPS]

icemankk2001

And that makes it ok?

[Curry Lamb]

Wrong! With the new contract, a senior captain at CX now earns less than a senior FO in the Sandpit.

[Piet Lood]

Wrong! With the new contract, a senior captain at CX now earns less than a JUNIOR FO in the Sandpit. No tax remember. Also better health care. 100% schooling paid for. Housing cheaper. Should I go on?

[Rie]

FO friends in the desert are on base of about 30,000aed++. So 63k HKD and if they are lucky to fly maybe some extra money on the side. Housing is no longer a cash hand out. Even singles have been forced into villas. That is more like JFO pay on COS18.

[icemankk2001]

Wrong! With the new contract, a senior captain at CX now earns less than a senior FO in the Sandpit.
this really shows CX pilots are enjoying their heavenly perks. please come back to earth. thanks. anyway I do hope majority of CX pilots not sign the new COS. bring CX to court please. fight till the end.... lets see who will lose more.

[Gaisha]

me too... that would allow KA pilots to come back in. Don’t sign fellas. If you don’t want the job... someone else will take it. Supply and demand. CX knows it. Nothing new.

[Dragon Pacific]

The company will want to re-employ all those expensively trained locals from KA as soon as they can in preference to keeping expats who will now have difficulty in getting their visas renewed.
HKA, AHK and HKE too will no longer be able to recruit or extend expats as there is now a pool of locals qualified to do the job.

[Mill Worker]

Curry, unfortunately you will find most of those guys in the pit are unemployed so the comparison is of limited value.

[Piet Lood]

Not true. The guys in QR are working their asses off.

[SOPS]

Has the DF0 gone onto COS 18? Asking for a friend !!

[Rie]

SOPS just have a look at the comment in another thread about training gentlemen getting a wee bit extra onto of their housing allowance... Pretty sure he'll end up on A-Scale topped up with a few bonuses after getting everyone to sign across to POS18.

[Silk_flyer1980]

Cathay's Motto -"Never let a good crisis go to waste!"
And they done just that again by enforcing a Permanent subscale contract, not offering but forcing! The new cos18 rev1 contract; SO earns less than ISM. Think about that for a minute, a pilot earning less than flight attendant in one of the biggest airlines in the world, in the most expensive city in the world!
Our only leverage in this matter is Unity. They are bluffing with the "sign or be fired" tactic. Scaremongering threats which they have done for years. The last time did this, was back with the 49ers, even then they lost in court and had to $Millions in compensation for loss in earning and defamation.

cathaypilotsunion.org/generaldocs/The49ersStory.htm

[WeelardPassord]

The company will want to re-employ all those expensively trained locals from KA as soon as they can in preference to keeping expats who will now have difficulty in getting their visas renewed.
HKA, AHK and HKE too will no longer be able to recruit or extend expats as there is now a pool of locals qualified to do the job.

I believe KA cadets are all on MPLs ...which cannot be transferred to another airline.

[Curry Lamb]

FO friends in the desert are on base of about 30,000aed++. So 63k HKD and if they are lucky to fly maybe some extra money on the side. Housing is no longer a cash hand out. Even singles have been forced into villas. That is more like JFO pay on COS18.

I believe it’s the equivalent of HKD 63K basic + around HKD 10K flight pay (if you’re on the Barbie Jet) + HKD 32K housing (either cash or value of a 4.5 bed villa, all utilities paid) = HKD 105K (take home) no tax. Certainly a much better deal than the new LCC contract here at Cafay Paciic :ugh:

[krismiler]

MPL might be transferable, subject to CAD approval of the training program. There is a precedent for this:

https://www.flightglobal.com/mpl-students-bust-transfer-myth/114911.article

[Dragon Pacific]

I believe KA cadets are all on MPLs ...which cannot be transferred to another airline.
Very few were MPL. Only one or two courses at most.

[AllWobbly]

THE MPL guys all hv full ATPLs now (P1 rated from the get go) They hadn’t run an MPL course for ages

[KABOY]

CX has played a dangerous hand with the severing of the KA limb, this shutdown was more about contracts and bringing 3000 pilots into compliance. LIFO posed too many problems across airlines for the training and possible bargaining required to down train, change fleet. In order to tackle this they found the smallest workforce and severed it, leaving a trial of blood that would would send fear into 3000 other pilots and force them over onto new contracts.

This was the first bloodletting and in hindsight their most expensive.

The remaining cuts are going to get cheaper and cheaper, now we shall see a bounce in the share price as CX move onto KA routes and start to increase flight numbers and passenger carriage. They will become stock market darlings as analysts put a buy recommendation on the airline. Destroy one brand that cost 6 billion, but watch the value of Swire's holding exceed that in the next 12-24 moths.

The government will see a return on their investment as their holding becomes more valuable and the reset on labour force contracts will put CX ahead of ANY airline in the region. Watch a privately held business get the HKSAR government lobbying for access back onto the valuable KA routes. Appointing a local CEO will become less significant when you have the HKSAR CE on your board.

The airbus fleet will be the big winner within CX as all the KA routes will be filled with this type. Statistics will be skewed, showing higher utilisation rates with the aircraft not stored. Stored aircraft are effectively wiped from fleet numbers. After several months the next round of bloodletting commences, targeting fleets, not seats.

This is the new dawn for CX and their industrial relations, employee engagement is just a buzz word used by consultants.

The only value they see is in the number 293, HK stock quote.

Truly a sad ending.

[Rie]

Now, the government has revealed plans to allow Hong Kong residents to return from mainland China, subject to a restricted quota and tests, without the need to quarantine at all. Two border checkpoints will reopen to carry this out: the Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macau Bridge and Shenzhen Bay.

This might help the return of flights to the mainland at least. Once they open the borders through the checkpoints the next move will be the airport. I can't see it working as far as keeping the number of cases down. It is still better than a complete lockout of all resulting in no flying at all.

[kahaha]

Kaboy, no one will shed a tear for ka on here, or if they do its just idle platitudes. Most @ cx are so relieved that they are still employed, receiving a decent ( but reduced) salary. A contract they’ve queued up to sign, I kid you not. Cos they know the consequences.
No chance of a 49ers action anymore at cx, the pilots are a real bunch of hot aired wusses.

Once the psychological impact of cos20 has been negated by a return to some form of flying, most in cx don’t give two figs about the fate of ka.

Dog eat dog in the world of expats, middle east, far east, all same lah

[mngmt mole]

Do you feel better now Kahaha...? I'm sure you do.

[JMock]

he’s right

[MENELAUS]

Hardly fair Mole. I have enough KA mates to lament their passing, and I for one will miss them.
Dog eat dog ? It was ever thus. Not just in the expat world.

[mngmt mole]

I take exception to his comment "no one will shed a tear for KA on here". I do, and I know many of my colleagues do. The fact that the entire airline was executed, coldly and suddenly, means CX management can deal with each of us remaining in the same manner. What has happened to KA has sickened me. So yes, my comment was fair.

[drfaust]

KABOY

If one truly has balls: Shove the entire MPF/ORSO + Goodwill severance into HK.293. You simply can not lose any more. The old Dragon has been executed, the CX guys are signing across and politically the decision has been made that CX will survive whatever it takes, except at a much lower cost base. At a stock price that is beyond annihilated at the moment, the upside potential it has is truly staggering in the coming 5 years or so. Who is feeling lucky, gents?

[MENELAUS]

I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

[Memorylapse]

I take exception to his comment "no one will shed a tear for KA on here". I do, and I know many of my colleagues do. The fact that the entire airline was executed, coldly and suddenly, means CX management can deal with each of us remaining in the same manner. What has happened to KA has sickened me. So yes, my comment was fair.

Completely agreed - many, many good friends that's been in KA for years that got dumped overnight. A few younger guys that got early command that made it through the KA slog, good on them, I reckon they will have bright futures somewhere else. For some older guys that I know, lives ruined.

I think anyone "not shedding a tear' about KA, I don't even know how anyone could say anything like that? Do we in CX even really, fundamentally understand what this means? I reckon the KA boys are actually better off taking the payouts and leaving, they'll be better off - taking the 3 months/severance/goodwill or whatever and all the rest or whatever you want to call it. We are signing COS18.

I hope expat SO's really also understand the meaning of this - do you really think that CX is going to spend a lot of money on you, type train you, whilst local ex KA FO's, fully type rated, ready to go, will be sitting at home.

I wish every KA pilot well - it is something that should not have happened the way it did, but they are a good bunch of boys.

[drfaust]

Given my current circumstances, I think I'd have to say no to "feeling" lucky, despite actually probably being it. :}

[Slasher1]

I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do ya, punk?

It's not luck when you see what happened to Dragon, trip over your own shoelaces running in to sign a new contract which forfeits any recourse you might have, and then are surprised when the same thing happens to YOU.

[MENELAUS]

I won’t be surprised frankly. They’ve surpassed themselves this time and I won’t be surprised.

[kahaha]

Its laughable how many of the hard nosed, rebellious and anti company crowd have leapt to sign their new cos. Some returned it by actually driving to cx city to personally deliver it, shouting look at me, I’m here to work harder for much less. I’m a sell out, please don’t do a Dragonair to me. Promise I won’t moan and bitch about bases on pprune lol .

12 months time , moan , bitch, why did I sign this, when those few who didn’t fall for it, are still here, on COS08 . Happy as .

[Slasher1]

That's for the folks who are still around in 12 months. It'll get even better when the folks who stood up and did the right thing (and couldn't be culled out of seniority) are still around (or at least got paid) and they're not.

I look forward (not really) to hearing from the guys who signed over and are out on the streets in a couple of months......Yup.........so you REALLY didn't see it coming ?!? How is it possible you're still alive after flying airplanes all these years ?

[AllWobbly]

Be nice you'll feel better.

[Sam Ting Wong]

I just signed over.

No laughing, no illusions, no hopes, just gut wrenching disgust.

[fatbus]

Good luck to the holdouts ( if any ). Airline industry will never be the same post covid . Good luck to all , I'm thankful I got out when I did , but have many close friends adversely affected.

[AndyBrown350]

Oh no :eek: so you signed COS18, you have degraded pilot conditions forever, what a disgrace to aviation... So many years pointing fingers at new joiners and now everyone is on board :}oh no!

[cxorcist]

I just signed over.

No laughing, no illusions, no hopes, just gut wrenching disgust.
Congratulations! You, of all people, deserve it.

[Slasher1]

Naturally, lol. I'd have expected no less. Good luck to ya.

Don't know how old you are but here's a tip. When you feel that gut wrench like that (other than in moments of grief) it either means you're about to get into a fight of some sort (and you usually know when that happens because it's the fight or flight kicking in), or you done the wrong thing (if'n it's a bizness deal or something trite like that likely will live to regret it down the road). It's worthwhile to listen to that gut. It ain't always right, but it usually is.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Cxorcist, I know you believe you saw all that coming. Let's assume you are right for a brief moment. Doesn't that make you the greatest fool of all? I mean, you knew this would happen, right? But you are still here, with a green card in your hand, next to all those marxist, non-believer, incompetent low-hour cadets on the same ridiculous payscale as you.

Slasher, now that you see what pure market forces unleashed can do, how is your libertarian world view coming along these days? Still a fan? What is happening right now would cream Ayn Rands panties, the invisible hand at full swing. You must be overjoyed.

[mngmt mole]

Let's put all the personal "one upmanship" aside. Ultimately, the profession of "pilot" has come to an end at Cathay Pacific. From the 1950's through to the present days, it's arguably been one of the best companies in the world to fly for. Now, the avarice, greed and arrogance of the Swire management class have destroyed the profession that underpinned the safety, reputation and progress of a great name in aviation. That has now all been laid to waste. For those remaining, it is unarguable that there is nothing resembling a career left here. It will be a bare basic contract job, with no possibility to provide for the needs of retirement or even your family's health. The time to make decisions accordingly is now upon everyone remaining.

[Piet Lood]

But I don’t understand STW, didn’t we get rid of cc and tb?
I thought you said that when and if we would bury the hatchet with management, our relationship would improve and that we would all get massive payrises and that if we played nice, they would play nice.
Of course I know it’s too little too late, but I hope that even you can see now that there was never any chance in hell that swine management would EVER play nice. A leopard and its spots come to mind.

[Slasher1]

Cxorcist, I know you believe you saw all that coming. Let's assume you are right for a brief moment. Doesn't that make you the greatest fool of all? I mean, you knew this would happen, right? But you are still here, with a green card in your hand, next to all those marxist, non-believer, incompetent low-hour cadets on the same ridiculous payscale as you.

Slasher, now that you see what pure market forces unleashed can do, how is your libertarian world view coming along these days? Still a fan? What is happening right now would cream Ayn Rands panties, the invisible hand at full swing. You must be overjoyed.
Actually they're not inconsistent; at least as far as the late Oliver Wendell Holmes would have said. The key being that the group has to have unity; something we've always lacked. Perhaps some have THOUGHT we've had it, but at the end of the day it's always been everyone for themselves to the detriment of everyone at this place. To wit:

"If it be true that workingmen may combine with a view, among other things, to getting as much as they can for their labor, just as capital may combine with a view to getting the greatest possible return, it must be true that, when combined, they have the same liberty that combined capital has, to support their interests by argument, persuasion, and the bestowal or refusal of those advantages which they otherwise lawfully control."

He would be the dissenting opinion on that case; it later being reversed (so these unions started off with even the law against them). In a day when unions made significant gains by sticking together while facing REAL adversity and the deck stacked against them. And their real adversity involved immediate job losses, private police forces shooting and beating them up, and strikebreakers with axe handles. Hardly the pen and ink world you've ever faced.

Of note is that Jimmy Hoffa organized a (successful) strike in the middle of the Great Depression where any job was hard to come by and easily replaced. Management quickly settled. If you're looking for adversity that time period had real adversity; not some country club esoterics.

[RAT Management]

There is unity.... 98% signed.... Ha ha ha ha ha

[SaulGoodman]

STW, why would you sign ANYTHING that makes it easier and cheaper to be made redundant in the future? I don’t get it. Is it fear?

[JMock]

why?

because it is breathing space to sort out the future.

no future here.

[raven11]

I just gave them my 3 months notice. It’s beyond words trying to describe the sadness I feel about what’s happened.

[JMock]

so sorry raven
no words indeed

[Sam Ting Wong]

STW, why would you sign ANYTHING that makes it easier and cheaper to be made redundant in the future? I don’t get it. Is it fear?

Pied, cxorcist and I signed because it might result in more money compared to not signing it.

As for protection from redundancy, there isn't any either way.


Pied,
I freely admit I was too optimistic. I was hoping for at least a temporary arrangement. But let's not forget the most catastrophic prophesies did not come true either, at least from a cx employee perspective. Regarding CC etc, my argument was not tied to the current crisis but to the last ( or the one before the last, lost count). I would have about 50k USD more in my bank account had we not rejected the payrise. There was also a 10 year ARAPA guarantee on the table at a later point, whether that would have rendered at least some protection I honestly don't know. Water under the bridge.

In defence of our employer I would argue that it is a global crisis, cx is bleeding money and no end in sight. What would you do if it was your company? At the end of the day it was the virus that got us, not some evil management. The entire industry is destroyed, from now on pilots are blue collar workers forever, everywhere. Maybe the US will have a few more years in it, but sooner or later the lower wages will spread to them as well. Amazon pays less than UPS and so the race to the bottom continues. Every new contract will be worse than any old one, globally. For what it's worth, I will stay for another two years and then retire.Ironically this whole desaster might give me the push I need, I have no pleasure doing this job since a long time anyway and I don't like to live in HK. I will still end up with more assets than anyone I know that started flight school at the same time, same as most of you. Thanks for the fish.

[mngmt mole]

I do blame the employer actually. They could have implemented a temporary cut to pay and benefits, restoring them once profitability returned. Instead, they cynically took permanent advantage of a temporary situation to eradicate any vestige of value in the career for pilots in the airline. Largely driven by the past 25 years of frustration and animosity that they themselves nurtured and grew. As a friend just told me, to not even provide him a ticket home after 30+ years of loyal service is disgusting. And he's right.

[quadspeed]

I just gave them my 3 months notice. It’s beyond words trying to describe the sadness I feel about what’s happened.

One the best trainers I've ever had the pleasure of flying with. Wish you all the best.

[Slasher1]

mngmt mole

Or they could simply have followed the contract. Without devising some 'clever' scheme to end run it.

These 'clever' schemes always wind up working out poorly for everyone.

[Krone]

CX pilot: cos 18, gets monthly pay 80-90k . Gets housing either fixed for 2 years or the cos18 rate. Gets kids edu allowance.

gets productivity pay. gets the security of knowing that for now, they are employed, and have medical cover for the family.


Ka pilot, Gets zero pay. potential huge mortgage/ lease to deal with, no salary, no security, no repatriation or staff travel. and most importantly no prospects in aviation. Pretty dire for most, wether you were a seasoned B scaler , C scaler making do, or d scaler, young and keen. Lives have been devastated.


So, Be thankful guys you are on the green side of the wire. Its not nice, but as all the moaners know, better than going it alone.

[controlledrest]

In defence of our employer I would argue that it is a global crisis, cx is bleeding money and no end in sight. What would you do if it was your company? At the end of the day it was the virus that got us, not some evil management.


With the cash reserves on hand, the sale of some aircraft and the 39 BILLION dollars from the HKG government there was no need to do anything at all. When the CEO talks about burning 2 billion a month it isn't clear if this is expenditure or losses. Worse case CX can last a couple of years no change to conditions. They used wuhan to completely screw the employees over. Most (all) of us would have accepted a temporary reduction in conditions, the management have decided to go scorched earth. The wuhan virus will pass before the cash is gone (even without POS18) and the sackings to come. With the exponential grow in infections and the arrival of a vaccine we will soon be dead, recovered or vaccinated.

CX is just another LCC. When there is a recovery those who can will leave. Those that are left will either be inexperienced or incompetent. Thats when CX will start crashing airframes. After al,l we will be no different to the other Asian LCCs.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Or they could simply have followed the contract. Without devising some 'clever' scheme to end run it.

These 'clever' schemes always wind up working out poorly for everyone.

They did comply with the contract, just not the way we wanted.




CX is just another LCC. When there is a recovery those who can will leave. Those that are left will either be inexperienced or incompetent. Thats when CX will start crashing airframes. After al,l we will be no different to the other Asian LCCs.


Customers don't care anymore who sits in the drivers seat, they are aware of the statistics. Plus most captains <50 ish will stay, and with command times of 15-20 years it really doesn't matter anymore with how much experience you started.

[wongsuzie]

cust don't care who is in the LHS so true all they want is low price and A to B travel. All those LCCs with accidents still survive. As mentioned the risk is culculated already. Apparently its worth it.

[Piet Lood]

Pied,
I freely admit I was too optimistic. I was hoping for at least a temporary arrangement.

You have been too optimistic from the word “go”, mate. But that’s because from your perspective on your throne looking down on the common folk without their vast portfolio of properties, it was probably hard to imagine, people were in it for more than money.

I might be able to give you a run for your money on the portfolio though, but the difference between you and I is that I fought the good fight for the betterment of the industry. You were only in it to further line your already well-lined pockets.

I don’t know about Pied, but Piet sure as hell didn’t sign a g*ddamned thing.

Enjoy your last two years that you admittedly will live in disgust for your employer. Most of us found out that disgust was deserved many moons ago.

And even now you are prone to write something like: “In defence of our employer.....blablabla”. Unbelievable!

[Piet Lood]

Wilco, but only because you asked so nicely.

[SloppyJoe]

That is mostly true of LCC whose customers don't have the money, nor the motivation to look into safety records and chose the best cost/airline ratio. I can guarantee that if the perception of CX's status of safety and service gets tarnished by incidents, accidents etc, there will be a very noticeable drop in those willing to pay HK$60,000 + for a one way long haul seat when there are other safer options out there. Corporate travel will all but disappear.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Dream on. Recruitment via Cadets are the industry norm since many years now and accidents are at record low. No customer cares who is pushing the buttons upfront behind the door.

[veritas777]

SloppyJoe

Sadly for you, your dream of those idiot cadets crashing planes left and right, and CX coming crawling back to expats begging them to come back with full housing and save the airline from imminent doom, is going to remain exactly that, a dream.

[Memorylapse]

Wilco, but only because you asked so nicely.

If you had any knowledge of the mother tongue, you would have realised that it was not a question. Hoes hoes Piet is 'n .....

[cabbages]

"Sadly for you, your dream of those idiot cadets crashing planes left and right, and CX coming crawling back to expats begging them to come back with full housing and save the airline from imminent doom, is going to remain exactly that, a dream."

I agree. Cadets, who have been selected on the basis of aptitude for the role, are surely as safe if not safer than the self funded pilots who gained experience on pay to fly schemes before joining CX.
The reality is, expat pilots are not wanted. The company have ensured that,
you cannot afford to rent or buy unless you are local,
you cannot afford to school your children unless you are local,
you cannot afford the medical costs if your family become sick.
Second and first officers now face 15+ years on a 2 point pay scale before maybe, just maybe having a shot at the left hand seat of an A320 flying into mainland china, day in, day out.
I know there are not any flying options out there, but there are better alternatives for every expat existing in hong kong.

[cxorcist]

Customers don't care anymore who sits in the drivers seat, they are aware of the statistics. Plus most captains <50 ish will stay, and with command times of 15-20 years it really doesn't matter anymore with how much experience you started.
That’s true, most of the time, until that dark and stormy night with moderate to severe turbulence, high gusty crosswinds, and a contaminated runway; then that highly compensated gweillo captain with heaps of experience looks pretty good. If you’ve been in this business long enough, you’ve seen some of those nights. That gets your attention regardless of your experience level. I love watching the passengers disembark with their relieved, though somewhat pale, faces.

[quadspeed]

cxorcist

Not to ruin an otherwise great narrative, but keep in mind that it's that same experience that often keeps a highly compensated gweillo from even attempting the approach under those conditions. Been there enough times to know that I shouldn't have.

[Freehills]

Arrowhead

This. All the numbers show flying is getting safer. Comparing with previous generation.

1988 - 59 fatal airline accidents, 1169 dead. 954 million pax
2018 - 18 fatal accidents, 561 dead. 4.223 billion pax.

[Numero Crunchero]

Just a few random thoughts....


After 9/11 and the GFC everyone thought things would be terrible for years - in both those cases it took a few years(3-4) to get back to 100% flying but it got back to 90% flying rather quickly(less than one year). I still expect, maybe too optimistically, that we will be back to 90% flying by end of 2021 which means it will have been almost 2 years!


Basing people when 99% of your flying is to/from HK is inefficient and costs money. We force it to happen (In JCR now) because Hong Kong costs were far greater than bases - this is no longer the case. Up to base rate I am cheaper in HK - over about 70 hours I am cheaper. Factoring and credit for sims, leave and ground duties are very roughly 10hrs per month or so for long haul pilots and 15+hrs for say Adl/Mel/Syd based 3 man ops. On top of that HOTAC costs are higher for based crew as Hong Kong based events cost money. For HK based pilots it costs less as clearly no HOTAC. The saving of HOTAC for based crew on bases washes out with the saving for HOTAC for Hong Kong crew in Hong Kong.

So 84 credit hours on COS08 long haul equates to about 74-75hours flying COS18. And 84hours 3man flying equates to roughly 70hours on COS18. Pure short haul would be roughly around 65hours on COS18 vs 84hours COS18. So if you want to compare costs use those block hour figures from COS18 vs 84credit hours.


Three man ops to EUR cost more on COS08 because of credit hour factoring etc. Under COS18 it will be cheaper (only a little)


It is cheaper to work COS18 pilots way over min guarantee. My hourly rate past 47hours is about 2/3rds my hourly rate average for first 47hrs(on HKPA). So it is ultimately in CX's interests to work us all as hard as possible on COS18 NOT keep us below base rate. The more hours I fly - the cheaper my average hourly rate gets.


If all the based manning is retained with no attempt to adjust current 'legacy' based terms, then flying will go to HK based crew first up to base rate(39-50hours depending on fleet), then based crew from 0 to 84credit hours - then COS18 for the rest. That is the cheapest cost solution.



I have no crystal ball - but i do know that JCR was not set up to fly people on different contracts - it would not have efficiently handled COS08//COS18 scheduling in HK. So I very much doubt we will have massive differences between based contracts and HK. Why have bases if they cost the same or more? (I mean this from a CX perspective not the legacy position we find ourselves in)


LIFO vs seniority - look at KA - look at 49ers court transcripts- then tell yourself seniority (LIFO) will save you! Whether it is in the contract or not it is only an impediment.


First world laws will protect bases - just like AMS and CDG - just like FWA (Oz) took on/admonished Qantas after it needlessly grounded the airline in 2011


Sickness rate will plummet - partially (maybe 10%) due to fear of loss of job and 90% because of productivity pay


Our paycuts will not save the airline - in the short term they save maybe 10% of the cash burn(and add maybe one month to our survival), and in the long term our profitability will be about 1% higher thanks to COS18


We had 5% attrition and were still growing until 2015. CX then reduced growth drastically for next 4 years. As of end of 2019 we had greater training capacity (numbers and training footprint) than before the TB. So CX can handle up to 10% growth in the short term given reduced attrition (no jobs out there) and up to 10% attrition and no growth with no impact on operations remaining static. In fact - COS18 + JRC could give another huge percentage bump in short term surge capacity (5, 10, 15$%???) which is cheaper than recruitment anyway.

[The100thmeridian]

Sadly for you, your dream of those idiot cadets crashing planes left and right, and CX coming crawling back to expats begging them to come back with full housing and save the airline from imminent doom, is going to remain exactly that, a dream.

It would be prudent and more acceptable to all if the terms expat and cadet were swapped for experienced aviators and non - experienced aviators. Ethnicity is irrelevant. Experience comes through years of experience and with that the correct formula for cockpit gradient is retained at a reasonable level. Race plays little to no part in it. If CX's plan is to be largely reliant on attracting zero to hero guys and girls off the street or those unable to obtain jobs in their own market after the recovery, and plowing them through ADL at bare minimum cost, and leaning heavily on training and checking then
so be it. That strategy may barely function (and often fails) with today's training department but the training and checking department come Nov 05, 2022 coupled with an industry that is forecast to be entering a slow expansion, thus providing options in less draconian work environments, indicates some serious potential safety considerations. It's all great when it stays on the rails but as soon as something happens for the first time for all of the flight crew members with some added weather challenges then it's all bets off. Especially if a pilot risks losing 1/3 of his/her salary for reporting unfit. Keep in mind that by 'benchmarking' your COS and benefits against a fusion of budget and /or low cost carriers in cheaper cities they have also benchmarked the safety.

[veritas777]

That’s true, most of the time, until that dark and stormy night with moderate to severe turbulence, high gusty crosswinds, and a contaminated runway; then that highly compensated gweillo captain with heaps of experience looks pretty good.

Rivetting story, where can I go to read more of this fantasy genre fiction?

[Flying Clog]

Anchorage, in the state of Alaska.

I'll shout you a beer down at the Polar Bar when you've grown a pair.

[quadspeed]

Anchorage, in the state of Alaska.

I'll shout you a beer down at the Polar Bar when you've grown a pair.

You're certainly not going into Anchorage with high, gusty crosswinds on a contaminated runway.

[veritas777]

Your creative writing skills are certainly very good I'll give you that, might consider a backup career as a fantasy novel author.

Meanwhile back in the real world, it's not the supposedly useless Asian cadets who think they're king of the world and end up crashing 2 747's into each other in Tenerife.

[Flying Clog]

Very good Veritas777, stoking the fire. You're a bit of a muppet aren't you?

quadspeed is right, there is no one in their right mind that would dare fly into Anchorage when it's high, gusty, crosswind, AND contaminated.

We would carry enough fuel to divert to Honolulu, everyone knows that. That's why we always pack a snorkel. Shows that you don't have your finger on the pulse mate.

In the meantime, how's the pillow selection coming along in the 777 bunks. Knobhead?

[AndyBrown350]

Your creative writing skills are certainly very good I'll give you that, might consider a backup career as a fantasy novel author.

Meanwhile back in the real world, it's not the supposedly useless Asian cadets who think they're king of the world and end up crashing 2 747's into each other in Tenerife.

Well... That was the most experienced KLM captain...

[fatbus]

I have worked with senior widebody captians I would not put my family on his flights and conversely 25 year narrow body captains who were spot on. Far too many "highly experienced wide body global sky gods " scare me the Sim ! Read "fail" . For those that can't deal with the younger generation of pilots , good or bad ,get over yourself .

[Sam Ting Wong]

I don't think many of us will leave in the end. Right now we are still in shock and denial, once the dust has settled reality will kick in. A rented three bed in DB will simply be the new normal, pilot wages will never recover, nowhere.

Cxorcist, your scenario sounds like the perfect oportunity for an autoland to me.

[mngmt mole]

I don't agree STW. Most will soon realise that there is no future here. They will conclude that it is nothing more than a drudgery, akin to a hamster in a wheel. If you are anything other than a younger single person, you will not be able to make ends meet. Adding up all the costs of living in HK, raising a family and dealing with the associated costs....there is no way forward. Far better to be back home working for a local company. You may not get any further ahead, but you will be home. HK only made sense when there was a significant financial benefit. Now that that is undeniably no longer the case there is no reason to stay. Factor in the risk to health and you can't possibly conclude staying makes any sense at all.

[controlledrest]

Rivetting story, where can I go to read more of this fantasy genre fiction?

Twice when I was a FO I stopped the cadet - Captain from making a smoking hole. As a Captain I have lost count of the number of times I have had to assist a FO (of the new generation) to fly a profile and / or land the aircraft. The safety concerns been raised are real.

What separates us from the Lion Airs of this world? It used to be our selection process (gone), our experience levels (gone), our training standards (gone) and our culture (now toxic beyond belief). We are now just another Asian LCC, waiting to kill hundreds of pax.

[Sam Ting Wong]

mngmt mole, I guess it will depend on oportunities at home. With my passport, there are pretty much zero right now. Time will tell if that is going to change.

Controlled rest, the pay at Lion Air is about 5000 USD for a captain. We are paid comparable with EK and SIA etc, and they don't crash either. Forget the safety argument, it's a fugazi.

[mngmt mole]

STW, I understand that some have few options (many of my great SA friends as a case in point). Regardless, the job at CX is pretty empty at this point. For most it will be better to head home.

[8driver]

You're certainly not going into Anchorage with high, gusty crosswinds on a contaminated runway.

You mistook Flying Clog. He meant when we've grown enough of a pair to say screw the asinine hotel lockdown and actually cross the street to the Polar Bar.

[Flying Clog]

What hotel lockdown?

[Asturias56]

"Far better to be back home working for a local company."

Can I ask what "local" companies are you thinking off?

Every airline in the world is laying off people by thousand - if and when things start to improve slowly most will be recruiting form their old employees for sure - it makes a lot more sense than hiring someone who has never worked for you. I think if you leave HK you're looking at leaving the airline business. My advice is that anyone who currently has a job should cling onto it for dear life and make whatever adjustments you have to and pray for a vaccine

[Flying Clog]

Yes, of course in most cases this means leaving the airline business.

Why in the fresh hell would you want to stay in it?

If you decide to stay and put up with it, then you really have no one else to blame.

[The100thmeridian]

"Far better to be back home working for a local company."

Can I ask what "local" companies are you thinking off?

Every airline in the world is laying off people by thousand - if and when things start to improve slowly most will be recruiting form their old employees for sure - it makes a lot more sense than hiring someone who has never worked for you. I think if you leave HK you're looking at leaving the airline business. My advice is that anyone who currently has a job should cling onto it for dear life and make whatever adjustments you have to and pray for a vaccine


​​​​​​Hong Kong is clearly not immune to the effects of C-19. If the rest of the world is still not in the process of recovery in a couple of years then neither will Hong Kong and the layoffs will begin all over again. But this time under COS18 or COS20 or 21 and all of its draconian policies. .... In the meantime you'll never really know and when it's all said and done, if things haven't improved then many will be heading home anyways - if they can - albeit possibly quite abruptly and joining at the back end of the local hiring/personal networking cue.

Many who are fortunate to have the option to resign or not sign have spouses, kids and other loved ones overseas whom they haven't seen in a very long time and are unlikely to see at all in even longer. How do you possibly balance that with the steaming perma-pile of turd on offer.

The only other option is to sign then try and take a vast amount of unpaid leave if one can maybe be granted it in 1 go. But you won't find out until well after signing. No pay/housing allowance after March, ratings and other endorsements may expire while on leave and all in combination with open season for round 2 with no LIFO. Who would CX chose to layoff - the current pilot in HK or the guy/gal needing stacks of training money to get current and then claim the balance of their ARAP. If you think they would do the right thing then I'm sorry to be the bearer of more bad news but you would need your head examined...don't shoot the messenger.

CX have had 8 months to concoct their master plan and meanwhile telling all that you shouldn't believe the rumours etc... The best that the Dear Leaders could come up with is basically just excellerating the plan that had been on the books well prior to C-19. We have all been given a momentary clear view of the decisions at the highest level. The ones speculated over for years. So now that it's opaque again what do you think is next?

Getting the family out of hk or getting reunited with family overseas in a controlled way in combination with possible options in persuing other sources of income that could very well still be aviation related and getting ones self 'whole' again away from what without doubt will be one of the, if not THE most toxic work environments could very well exceed the value and instability of COS18 and all the other cuts taking place.

The ability to be ready and poised to strike at the first good opportunities back home while being present is also hard to quantify. If one is fortunate to have options then this may be all you need for change. Slow but positive change. The decision is hopefully not simply between CX vs destitution for all. For those who do not have options or lack the courage and fortitude to follow it then I am very sorry.

Cathay and Dragon pilots have all just had the rug collectively pulled out from under our feet. But remember, don't believe the rhumors... because the truth is worse.

[quadspeed]

Yes, of course in most cases this means leaving the airline business.

Why in the fresh hell would you want to stay in it?

If you decide to stay and put up with it, then you really have no one else to blame.

Because we have mortgages to pay, kids to put through college and mouths to feed.

​

[cxorcist]

Cxorcist, your scenario sounds like the perfect oportunity for an autoland to me.
Wrong! Shows what you know. Coupled approaches and autoland are terrible in really gusty winds. The autopilot and auto throttle are simply not quick enough. I’ve seen that be the reason weak captains almost made smoking holes. Maybe you need a few more long haul hours before they upgrade your cheap bum into the LHS.

Hence, the point of my dark stormy night post. Dismiss it if you must, but just wait until it happens to you. Insurers don’t like experience for no reason. The inexperienced typically don’t understand the value of experience by their very definition, obviously.

[cxorcist]

What separates us from the Lion Airs of this world? It used to be our selection process (gone), our experience levels (gone), our training standards (gone) and our culture (now toxic beyond belief). We are now just another Asian LCC, waiting to kill hundreds of pax.
Correct. The youngens laugh because they don’t know any better. They trust the magenta created by the brilliant engineers at Boeing and Airbus more than real experience. Good luck with that...

[Sam Ting Wong]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1200x1200/image_3073b6691b3d16b655fe76792afa0662edf98f77.png



Cxorcist, you are living in denial. Safety is not an issue anymore but at some obscure third world carrier or LCC that expanded too quickly. The statistics don't lie. The customer is not interested anymore who sits at the wheel, don't shoot the messenger, just the facts. And absolutely nobody, really literally nobody, cares about a 747 freighter crew. You would not even make the news. Yes, an ex-military fast jet pilot is probably in certain remote situations better equipped to make the day. I give you that. I probably would not have been capable of doing a Sully. But the fact is that those situations are too rare to be of relevance. Automatics work just fine,and if they don't in your stormy night scenario I go around and divert.I don't have a problem with admitting a weather situation is too hairy for me, something an ex-carrier landing maverick might find a bit more difficult. You will find my mark on the right hand side of the monthly fuel statistic (I assume, I delete the mail unopened).

Additionally, we will see if there is really an exodus of experience. You and I are still here after all, and I have a feeling Piet is hanging in as well . If the conditions elsewhere are not better, giving up your seniority and LHS is a tough call. Easy to claim one would should could do on pprune, much harder in real life. Singapore, Emirates etc all had no issue attracting enough pilots over the last years, and we are now simply down to their level. The market forces are against us, that is the sad truth.

[YellowFever777]

Wait, did cxorcist sign cos18??? Surely not after pointing the finger at those who would sign inferior terms and conditions for years. I assume he resigned with his dignity intact, a man of true conviction and honour.

[controlledrest]

Cxorcist, you are living in denial. Safety is not an issue anymore but at some obscure third world carrier or LCC that expanded too quickly. The statistics don't lie. The customer is not interested anymore who sits at the wheel, don't shoot the messenger, just the facts. .

Bull****. I have been many times by Hong Kong non-aviation friends that they fly CX because the pilots are largely not locals. CX is pissing this away.

[controlledrest]

Not to ruin an otherwise great narrative, but keep in mind that it's that same experience that often keeps a highly compensated gweillo from even attempting the approach under those conditions. Been there enough times to know that I shouldn't have.

My experience of being on reserve during typhoons is I always get called out. On checking the roster it is a cadet-Captain actually showing some smarts and calling in sick to avoid showing just how skilled they are.

[krismiler]

A few years ago, the idea of leaving EK to work for a low cost back in Europe was laughable, but it the last year or two it was actually occurring. The reduced T&Cs together with the increased B/S tipped the scale for many pilots, and the idea of multi sector days under O'Leary management became more bearable when it was offset by living in your home country and being in your own bed every night. A fixed roster pattern and staying married to the same person clinched the deal.

CX has gone from being a career airline which set the standard for pay and conditions, and was a company pilots aspired to work for. Management took full advantage of the present situation and turned it into just another airline which pays the minimum to keep staff turnover down to an acceptable level.

Ryanair and Easyjet will be flooded with applications from Hong Kong once travel starts picking up in Europe.

[cxorcist]

Wait, did cxorcist sign cos18??? Surely not after pointing the finger at those who would sign inferior terms and conditions for years. I assume he resigned with his dignity intact, a man of true conviction and honour.
Absolutely not! You don’t want CXorcist on CoS18. That won’t be any fun for anyone.

[Sam Ting Wong]

So you left?

[cxorcist]

So you left?
In process... Happy now?